When I read about 4-day weeks, it seems most say they work 9-10 hours per day, mon through thur, then take a 3 day weekend. I'm not in favour of this since that eliminates any useful time at home in the evenings for 4 days.
This article suggest a straight 4day week for 32hr. Who wants to take a 20% salary cut for that extra day off?
Wood Guy
Nov 4, 19 10:24 am
Other industries often get paid lunches. In 20 years of working in higher ed, public administration and marketing (yes, 3 different industries), my wife has always had paid lunch breaks.
tduds
Nov 4, 19 1:17 pm
Why is a 20% salary cut assumed?
Non Sequitur
Nov 4, 19 1:28 pm
Well, how else could you justify the change? You don't just get the same $ for less hours.
Wilma Buttfit
Nov 4, 19 1:51 pm
you could if you measured outcomes instead of hours
Non Sequitur
Nov 4, 19 1:57 pm
...also you could if you had clients and construction schedules that could absorb a 20% increase in delivery times. I just dont understand how people think things will get completed in less time (hence the 20% figure) if you work a 4day/32hr week vs a 5day/40hr especially if you're expecting the same compensation.
You don't just become 20% more efficient by having less required weekly hours.
Everyday Architect
Nov 4, 19 2:01 pm
^ this. I would love to see an office let go of the hourly billing model and instead focus on completion of tasks and outcomes.
Everyday Architect
Nov 4, 19 7:30 pm
Note that "^ this" was referring to tintt's comment, not Non's. I do agree with Non's comment that 32 hrs does not equal 40 hrs ... which is why I think it would be interesting to see an office get away from an hourly mentality and instead focus on outcome. I'm assuming this is how tintt manages her contract work, which makes sense and is probably normal, but I've never heard of an entire office being managed this way.
Wilma Buttfit
Nov 5, 19 2:51 pm
Some of my work is hourly and some is not. I like to mix it up. I like that for results-oriented work I can take frequent breaks when I need to like when working on difficult and tedious stuff (cause sometimes an answer just pops into your head that can't come when you are staring at a screen) and I like that I can work on difficult stuff when I'm at my best (mornings) and do easier stuff when I'm feeling lazier. Some days I like the marathon pace and some days I like to run sprints. Cross-training. I get burned out when every day feels the same and I'm expected to perform continuously for a set part of the day. Plus then I can never watch any Dr Phil. Just kidding.
midlander
Nov 4, 19 8:15 am
i did this during the recession with a 20% salary cut while our office struggled to stay solvent. it was great. i spent the 5th day at home working on my own projects or painting / drawing art. luckily i was paid ok to start with, and had a cheap lifestyle.
if you could be ambitious and keep on track to climb the ladder while working 4 days a week, i'd sign right up. it's not all about the money though - the other aspects of signalling value to colleagues and clients unfortunately matter.
otoh i had a 4 day weekend planned this week. after 2 days at home with my dear family, i got a call from an acquaintance looking for help at a meeting with an old client - for a nice fee - and said hell yeah. a morning out of the house, lunch with an old client, and $800, sounds fun.
to some extent, this will always only be possible at the bottom. as you move up in responsibility and freedom, you actually want to do as much as you can. the line between work and social activity blurs a lot. i do think as a society we should push to make this an option for employees who desire it - or more broadly, allow for nonstandard work scheduling and time commitments. it's largely a management issue, though socializing many of the obligations placed on employers would help greatly.
but children should keep to a 5 day school week. maybe 5.5 even :P
Non Sequitur
Nov 4, 19 8:40 am
Very good points. One thing some might not realize is that someone needs to be available when the client calls. We have a handful of staff on modified schedules and it can be a pain when they are the expected contact for a project... gets even more frustrating when it's a repeat client looking to get new project started. Dito for construction admin. So those with direct client interactions and who control productivity can't really make a 4day week work.
joseffischer
Nov 4, 19 9:54 am
Pay for my phone and I'll answer it, simple as that.
curtkram
Nov 6, 19 9:25 am
instead of paying for your phone you get reimbursed for your phone, so you don't need to manage both a person and professional one. also, that way you get the phone and provider you want and put whatever aps you want on it. that reimbursement is included in the salary you already receive.
monosierra
Nov 4, 19 8:38 am
I think it is more difficult for professional service providers than product providers, especially one that is as race-to-the-bottom as commercial design. The work done and deadlines are contingent on the client, who are in turn abiding by deadlines set by the authorities and the market, as well other coordinated parties. Unless there is broad consensus among all these players, an architectural service provider that sticks to its own work schedule could be out-flanked by a firm that offers to work more for less. An unfortunate problem endemic to most rungs of the business. There's a story in the ODA monograph about a ten day design process for the 420 Kent project in Williamsburg - the firm could have said no to Eliot Spitzer's development firm and surrendered the opportunity to design the project. The developer in turn appeared to be hobnobbed by government deadlines and market conditions - thus the short notice/
midlander
Nov 4, 19 8:48 am
good point - the most severe scheduling pressures always come from deadlines by the client due to meeting unreasonable obligations for financing or government submissions / revisions. those are things over which the clients have no control. it's going to require a more systematic review of the conditions within each industry if society as a whole wants to change this norm. it's not primarily architect-bosses driving the problem.
monosierra
Nov 4, 19 9:02 am
I'd love to see a comparison with other industries that require extensive coordination for large projects. The aerospace industry also seems to have big coordination challenges driven by the inherent complexities of precision manufacturing, worldwide logistics, competitive market, threat of litigation, and big factors beyond the company's control (Global economics and government regulations/policies). Would love to see how those guys handle their workload. I find comparisons with other professions less relevant - especially those which don't require as much external coordination as the construction industry or those which have the power to dictate timelines and schedules.
Wilma Buttfit
Nov 4, 19 8:45 am
werk
Non Sequitur
Nov 4, 19 9:02 am
That's a sexy monitor. I like that the blouse matches the vent grilles.
archi_dude
Nov 4, 19 9:03 am
I do 11's every day. Gym, surf, socialize as well. So eliminating useful evening time wouldn't be a problem on a 4x10 schedule. The main problem is coworkers with Non's attitude. This is how we do it any deviation wont work! From personal experience with flexible work schedules, both a pay reduction to reduce hours at one firm and a work at home once a week at another, you really need to constantly remind coworkers with that attitude that it's a policy that's open to everyone or that you are in fact making less money because of it. It really is awesome, burnout is no where to be found, you are definitely happier and way more efficient.
Non Sequitur
Nov 4, 19 9:05 am
What's my attitude exactly here? I think yours is far shittier than mine: foregoing evenings and / or working 11hr days is better than a normal 5day work-week.
archi_dude
Nov 4, 19 11:58 am
I work CM now. I'd like to implement a flexible schedule for my team if I ever make PM.
Non Sequitur
Nov 4, 19 12:02 pm
Flexible that covers most of the typical office work hours works. Gets harder if everyone is away at once tho.
sameolddoctor
Nov 7, 19 12:26 pm
Non, I think archi_dude doesnt have kids, and will never do with his/her 11 hour days...
Wood Guy
Nov 4, 19 9:21 am
We used to work 4-10's at the design/build firm I worked for. I often ended up coming in for half a day on Fridays or over the weekend but it was still a good system overall. Working 7-5:30 with 1/2 hour for lunch isn't that bad once you get used to it.
For the last few years, self-employed, I often work at least 10-12 hour days 5-6 days/week and half-days the remaining days. 4-10's sounds like a walk in the park in comparison.
OddArchitect
Nov 4, 19 9:38 am
Our office does 4 1/2 day work weeks. 7am to 5pm Mon-Thurs and 7am-11am on Friday. Seems to work great for us. Our clients and consultants don't have an issue with it and we're actually more productive. This is probably because it's easy to put in a few more hours on a Friday . . . got to love unpaid overtime.
Miles Jaffe
Nov 4, 19 10:17 am
France has a 35 hour work week. Denmark 37, with a goal of lowering it to 30.
OddArchitect
Nov 4, 19 10:51 am
To be fair that's not for architects.
bowling_ball
Nov 4, 19 10:30 pm
My office is 37.5 hours. In Canada. It can be done.
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 1:11 pm
37.5 here too for like 75% of the staff. I'm most PA and CM, so my hours are closer to 42-45.
Happy Anarchy
Nov 5, 19 8:51 pm
France is not a real country, never won a war.
senjohnblutarsky
Nov 4, 19 10:26 am
I work four nines and a four. It's a pretty sweet schedule. The four hour day is typically spent just doing paperwork, management things, or word processing (studies/reports). I don't work overtime unless it's absolutely necessary. If I didn't have a commute of over an hour each way, it'd be just about perfect.
Could I cut the four hour day? Probably. But it would crowd the rest of my schedule; I enjoy having a day dedicated to certain types of tasks. I could probably just move it to half of another day of the week.
The biggest problem I see is client and contractor expectations. Contractors are becoming easier because most of them I deal with are working 4 ten hour days anyway. I rarely hear from most of them on Fridays. Owners expect instant gratification at all times. We've moved on from phone calls, letters, and hard copies of everything being mailed around. Everyone wants something and wants it now, via text or email. Who is going to keep them happy on your day off? You are. That's who.
OddArchitect
Nov 4, 19 10:52 am
I never give clients a cellphone number.
Miles Jaffe
Nov 4, 19 12:06 pm
With that commute you’re
working four 11’s and 6. That’s a 50 hr week.
senjohnblutarsky
Nov 4, 19 2:33 pm
I don't commute on the half day, typically. But yes, I'm gone from home a lot, and have a 1 year old. Like I said, if I didn't have the commute, it's a pretty sweet schedule.
Donna Sink
Nov 4, 19 11:34 pm
senjohn, how do you actually make sure your dedicated day stays dedicated? I swear since I became a PM the ONLY way I get any dedicated time for anything is to do it after 6pm or on the weekend when on one else is in the office bugging me for attention. Do you set up an out of office reply or pull an invisibility cloak around your desk or something?!
senjohnblutarsky
Nov 5, 19 9:06 am
I work remotely 98% of the time on that day. I could probably manage it pretty well in our office. We have a lot of people who work four 10 hour days, and several part time folks. So, they aren't there on Fridays. I work in a corner in the basement, so that helps too. The lack of people and remoteness of my office makes Friday's fairly slow, if I'm in the office.
the office I run has had a standard 4 days @ 10 hrs/day for 18 years. Works well, with each staffer member choosing to which day they don't want to come in, some like the long weekend while others choose a day mid week to resolve domestic child care issues etc. I don't mind what ever they chose it's just more a matter of educating clients and contractors to be aware of the timing and scheduling issues. Not difficult to manage, maintain or emphasize to our clients. Everyone is respectful and supportive when they see it doesn't impact the project and staff are happier and more self empowered.
sameolddoctor
Nov 7, 19 12:27 pm
Yup! This comment wins.
tduds
Nov 4, 19 2:33 pm
My ideal week would be Four 9-hour days. There's no way I get that much more done in 40 hours than 36. Overtime always happens near deadlines, but 4 9's would be a great baseline.
Wood Guy
Nov 4, 19 2:52 pm
That sounds pretty good. My goal is to get to 30 hrs, with at least 15 billable. I have a long way to go...
senjohnblutarsky
Nov 4, 19 3:13 pm
If I were opening a firm, it'd be four 9's starting out. Probably wouldn't have enough work to fill out 40 hour weeks for all employees. And on the weeks that you do, you'd have a cushion before overtime kicked in.
Wilma Buttfit
Nov 4, 19 5:02 pm
I work 1-2 twelve to fifteen hour days. Then 1-2 six to eight hour days. Then 1-2 two to four hour days. With breaks.
mightyaa
Nov 4, 19 6:10 pm
My favorite is a firm I know does set office hours 9'ish-3, 4 days a week; a required 20 hour minimum to be available to co-workers and clients. They expect 40’ish hours (based on the assignments and tasks given), but leave it up to the individual for that extra time to get the assignment done. So, night owls and early birds do well. Personally, I think its brilliant. Does a fine job giving employees a chance to balance their life/work without trying to dictate their personal schedule to just weekends and evenings. btw; it's also perfectly acceptable to 'do not disturb' when outside those hours so you can focus on your task without interuption. Their client is just sort of are informed when it's easiest to reach you.
Non Sequitur
Nov 4, 19 7:03 pm
Very interesting.
atelier nobody
Nov 4, 19 7:41 pm
I worked at a firm like that - everyone was expected to be there 10-3 M-F (except scheduled meetings and lunch, of course) and the rest of your 40 hours was for you to fill in. I have always suffered from no consistent sleep pattern, so there'd be days I was in at 6 and out at 3, days I was in at 10 and out at 7, and days I was only there 10-3 and made it up by coming in on the weekend. The amusing thing was, there was one principal who was convinced I was the most dedicated worker there, because some days he'd see me already there when he came in and other days he'd see me still working when he left - he never figured out that it was rarely both on the same day and I really was working right around 40...
archeyarch
Nov 4, 19 11:33 pm
any way to negotiate the 32 hrs with the firm.?
Donna Sink
Nov 4, 19 11:37 pm
Some people in our office do 32 hour weeks and I admit I'm envious. And I'm 100% certain I'd be more productive in four 8-hour days than in my current five-10 hours days. I'm so fucking burnt out.
OneLostArchitect
Nov 4, 19 11:58 pm
Me too
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 7:16 am
I’m a fan of the 7:30am to 5:30pm then 9pm to 3am when I need to turn up the heat. I definitely prefer that over working 8am to 8pm steady.
Koww
Nov 5, 19 12:34 am
lots of ppl gonna be doing 0 hours when robots take your job and your wife
Microsoft Japan did a trial this summer and found several benefits to a 4-day work week.
Jaetten
Nov 5, 19 7:57 am
I do 5x 0830 to 1730, with approx 1.5hr of commuting. My total working week including the driving is between 55 and 60hrs. 24x7 exhausted. Ouf of the house on average for 11hrs à day 5 days à week. No time for family, always burnt out at weekends. I'm paid 40hrs and I was at 80% billable hrs, not I'm at 70%. Its looking at a screen that wears me out.
Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but I'd rather do 4x12 and get 3 off, or lose the commute!
BabbleBeautiful
Nov 5, 19 10:19 am
I would love for society to go get away from the militaristic, regimented system we acclimate to at a young age. It's inefficient and has soured our psyche.
archi_dude
Nov 5, 19 11:14 am
I think the only way to make this happen is for some protections for white collar workers to finally be implemented. At least get rid of the BS salary = unlimited dedication / time. I know, I know you can quit find a new job but I really don't see much of a change until this happens. I'm on the CM side now and I see a lot of source for crazy deadlines is the mentality of needing it immediately by the clients and investors. Both architects and contractors give in so they can keep the workflow coming in. This then rolls down on workers. The investors are fine, I see a building that's sat vacant for years all of sudden "needing" to be built out ASAP because the finance side finally greenlighted its buildout. Cue crazy impossible deadline to start generating revenue and returns asap. If there were some laws establishing a maximum overtime or even mandatory overtime I think we'd see some lengthening of these schedules again. And the investors would still just be doing fine.
archi_dude
Nov 5, 19 11:15 am
Mandatory overtime pay
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 11:26 am
We pay OT above 37.5hr per week for production staff (non inner-circle management folks). I've just made the leap into this inner circle which means I've replaced my OT compensation with a share of office profit. Since OT compensation comes out first (profit is distributed annually), there is an incentive for management to reduce overhead and OT costs. There is always going to be a better office. No excuse for those who become complacent with a bad place and expect everything to change to suit them.
x-jla
Nov 5, 19 11:15 am
seems like a no brainer. 4 x 10hr a week is way more productive and healthy than 5x8hr.
x-jla
Nov 5, 19 11:22 am
I’m in the midst of hiring a few workers and expanding from a one man show to a small company...I’m doing a 4 day a week work schedule. I’m also doing a 1 hour lunch family style with home cooking provided at least 2 days a week. Our current system is unhealthy and depressing. Plan on doing my small part to change that...
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 11:28 am
I strongly disagree. I want to be home every weeknight before 6pm (assuming 10hr day is 8am to 7pm + 1hr lunch).
x-jla
Nov 5, 19 12:09 pm
The hour lunch would be included.
x-jla
Nov 5, 19 12:10 pm
And leading at 5 sucks. Leaving later let’s you miss the bulk of traffic
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 12:17 pm
Traffic does not really impact me since I dont drive and 90% of the downtown workforce are federal employees... so they all leave at 3pm anyways.
edit, I did not see your above potluck comment before making my first reply. How's your cooking?
x-jla
Nov 5, 19 12:34 pm
I cook every day non. I’m good at cooking any Italian food or Mexican. Even make my own bread and pizza. My best is a seafood pasta with a sauce I make from roasted tomatoes and herbs...people have said it’s the best pasta dish they've ever had :) Was considering dumping design and going into culinary, but too much work and hours in that biz.
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 12:35 pm
Cushy gov public service gigs are 35hr/week, maybe. many are 8am-3pm give or take an hour or so. Most are replaceable/forgettable roles so very few take their job seriously compared to the private sector. They get paid more and do very little work (and their union and annual strikes are a huge burden on everyone), but it's dreadful work.
x-jla
Nov 5, 19 12:43 pm
So instead I’ll just cook for my peps
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 12:44 pm
I should not have asked during lunch time. Now I want seafood pasta.
x-jla
Nov 5, 19 12:50 pm
:)
OddArchitect
Nov 5, 19 1:11 pm
Could I have burger please?
mightyaa
Nov 5, 19 1:26 pm
My wife is a Fed. Two days a week in the office for a 6 hour phone shift. Otherwise, it is teleworking and just doing the case files by the deadlines or training. That equates to about 20 hours for her which she schedules around the kids. But, she makes about 60% of what she did in the private sector that forced 60 hour work weeks and had massive turnover and layoffs.
tduds
Nov 5, 19 1:32 pm
"Was considering dumping design and going into culinary, but too much work and hours in that biz."
Same. I bartended/served for a while during the recession. If you think the architecture industry has shitty hours, hoo boy.
I enjoy cooking as a hobby too much to ruin it by turning it into a job.
Maybe we should have a "What's cookin?" thread?
zonker
Nov 5, 19 11:54 am
(4x) 12 hr days that generate redlines that must be picked up friday, an other 12 hour day + Sunday = 72 hours -
OddArchitect
Nov 5, 19 1:23 pm
F#*k those hours code. No matter how great the project or much you'd pay me I would not destroy my life by working those hours.
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 2:14 pm
This is not a good brag. I've only passed the 70hr mark 3 times in 10+ years.
joseffischer
Nov 5, 19 2:25 pm
When I just started I happened on a team that had an owner who changed the entire project and didn't want the deadline to move and was ready to open their wallet for it. The firm expanded the team from 4 to 8, and asked the interns who would be willing to work 5x16s + 12 on sat and 8 on sunday... 100 hours. I signed on and it lasted 5 weeks. We got a special bonus at the end (which as I recall basically covered what I would have been paid if it was all overtime pay) and they provided lunch and dinner. Dinners were actually a big affair where each team member got to pick the place and we all took an hour off to eat and chat.
I could never do this again, and I appreciate that the firm asked for volunteers, but at the time I didn't mind it.
atelier nobody
Nov 5, 19 2:53 pm
I could do that 1 week in a crunch (and have), but 2 weeks in a row, or more than once or twice a year, and I'd be out the door. I know there are firms that expect this regularly (see the Patrik Schumacher discussion below), but I believe such firms should be shunned and publicly shamed just as much as the firms with the unpaid internships.
Happy Anarchy
Nov 5, 19 8:52 pm
code, you looking for job?
OddArchitect
Nov 5, 19 1:13 pm
I personally find that anything over 9 hours a day leaves me with little energy to do other things after work.
You can tell Patrik is wrong here because he's lying about his argument.
Not forcing your employees to work long hours is not the same as forcing your employees to not work long hours.
atelier nobody
Nov 5, 19 2:48 pm
It is the nature of creative work, or maybe of creative workers, that sometimes one gets hyperfocused and can work many, many hours. The problem with Patrik, and many like him in the profession, is that they believe it's reasonable to expect his to be everyone's default work mode, all the time, and that people who can't sustain it day in and day out are therefore unfit to work in the profession.
tduds
Nov 5, 19 3:09 pm
Exactly. It's about the choice, not a requirement one way or the other.
BabbleBeautiful
Nov 5, 19 4:14 pm
Yep. I personally, don't care if the person next to be feels the need to put it more or less hours - which is where, in the profession, hourly+OT as opposed to salary makes sense to me. Also, in a business standpoint, it makes sense to only allow OT when the project needs it. However, if everyone is on salary...things get a little more convoluted and allows for foul play. I've also found that bonuses can be used as the carrot at the end of the stick.
OddArchitect
Nov 5, 19 4:17 pm
I agree. I worked for a firm that the only way you got a year end bonus was for working OT. Over five years the bonus only once equaled the base hourly rate for the OT I worked. Most years it was 50%.
Miles Jaffe
Nov 5, 19 4:33 pm
In Liberland the masters relax by the pool, waited on hand and foot by naked slaves while the minions toil in dungeons below.
tduds
Nov 5, 19 4:53 pm
Frankly, our profession is task-based, not hour based. If I can complete my expected amount of work in 4 fewer hours than a colleague, I should be able to work 4 fewer hours for similar pay.
tduds
Nov 5, 19 4:55 pm
A place I used to work had a great policy of setting milestone deadlines for Wednesdays. Not only did it build in a couple of buffer days in case we ran behind, but we were done for the week when we hit the milestone. Sometimes it was late Friday, but a lot of times we earned a 3.5-4 day weekend by staying on target.
BabbleBeautiful
Nov 5, 19 5:09 pm
tduds: Hmm... yes you are correct in that we're tasked-based, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive. From a management POV, if the employees were salaried and there's enough work you're going to work on the next task. You're not going home early just because you finished your homework early.
Also, I think that office environment you mentioned is extremely rare.
tduds
Nov 5, 19 5:17 pm
It is very rare, but I wish it wasn't. My overall thought is that - if my reward for efficiency is just more work, there's no incentive for me to be efficient. I get profit share now so the incentive model is a bit different, but I think more firms should prioritize balance. Otherwise you'll end up with half your office coasting & the other half burned out. That's not how you get quality.
BabbleBeautiful
Nov 5, 19 5:36 pm
Exactly, no incentive, no balance of work load, etc. and that's how most firms I've personally experienced and vicariously experienced, operate. In finance there's what's called the utilization rate - the % of time a person does doing billable work. I have never seen an office actually calculate or have constant awareness of this, but I think going hourly would enforce it.
Everyday Architect
Nov 5, 19 5:47 pm
Almost all firms I've worked at calculated and could pull up any employee's utilization rate in a minute or two. This is usually built into whatever they are using for timesheets. In some offices it mattered more than others. It has nothing to do with being hourly vs. salary.
BabbleBeautiful
Nov 5, 19 5:56 pm
EA: You're right, it has nothing to do with hourly vs.salary. I don't even know why I brought it up.
Everyday Architect
Nov 5, 19 7:10 pm
The biggest issue I have with the whole utilization rate metric is that I have yet to see an office account for worker efficiency with this. If, for example, it takes tduds 36 hours what it takes me to do in 40, but we are both being measured for our billable time, I look like the better worker with 100% utilization compared to tduds' 90%.
One office I worked in seemed to calculate utilization on a 40-hour work week regardless of how many hours you actually worked. So if you were really inefficient and worked overtime you could have over 100% utilization. The really annoying part about that office is that they would usually bring up your utilization rate when you wanted a raise, or they were handing out bonuses, which meant that it penalized those who were more efficient. I brought this up in one of my salary negotiations, and you could tell the principal had never considered this. His only response was that I should be taking on other tasks to remain above the target utilization rate ... I passive aggressively implied that he/the firm should win more work.
midlander
Nov 5, 19 8:14 pm
this sounds like incompetent management. utilization rate isn't a measurement of performance; it's a measurement of availability for billable tasks. in general it should be lower for more senior level positions. senior management was often less than 50% - they spent most of their time on office management and building client relationships, not billable work. deviations from target utilization rates are symptoms of poor work planning by the pm, or an inadequate amount of incoming work for the staff, or possibly an employee given the wrong role for their skills. it's not relevant to consider individual employees utilization rate unless they are fully in charge of their own task assignments and scheduling, which again would be poor management.
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 8:42 pm
Tduds, are you suggesting that for example, if one person was asked to complete a certain set of drawings and coordination tasks and they burn through them by wednesday, they can just fuck-off (politely) and take a 5 day weekend? I don't think that works. Control of deliverables and reasonable scheduling is better and having most of your staff on hand for most of the workweek helps when the eventual problems occur. Perhaps I just don't agree with the piecing apart of a project and giving staff their own sandbox to play in. There is one deadline and one team. More efficient team members get rewarded with better compensation and better project/career opportunities while the slackers stay at the bottom. (and unfortunately become a loud parasitic voice behind the otherwise good intentions of the pro-union folks). My 2 canadian cent's worth. Time for a beer.
midlander
Nov 6, 19 2:56 am
to clarify, utilization rate is a project management / work plan metric. it helps you know how much time you can 'assign' to certain individuals. it's not a performance measurement. if someone is exceeding their target utilization, their workload is being mismanaged, or they are doing the wrong job for their position. if a managing principal is spending 38 hours a week drawing details, their utilization will be high, but they are hopelessly failing at their role as a manager.
midlander
Nov 6, 19 3:03 am
agree w non here. architecture is very much a team project. everyone has strengths and a focus within their team, but it's a dysfunctional team that gives people such limited roles that they can finish on wednesday and leave for the week while others stay in the office plugging away. this can really only work in a small office where incoming work is limited, and so nothing else is ready to do once one project milestone is done. it's also not necessarily a sign of personal efficiency. some clients are easy, some projects run smoothly. some don't - and that's not usually the fault of the individual staff.
Everyday Architect
Nov 6, 19 11:48 am
I completely agree with you on the incompetent management comment midlander. One of the many reasons I don't work for them anymore. Cheers!
tduds
Nov 6, 19 11:57 am
Non - To clarify, it was team based. & only for milestones. So, for example, we targeted to submit for permit on a Wednesday. If we busted our asses and got the permit set in on Wednesday (or Thursday, or Friday morning), the team was good for the week.
Wilma Buttfit
Nov 6, 19 12:05 pm
Those Monday deadlines though. Who does that?
zonker
Nov 5, 19 5:46 pm
Sooo Patrik, didn't Zaha die of a heart attack, she made the ultimate sacrifice - chain smoking, "we work all the time" Zaha
BabbleBeautiful
Nov 5, 19 5:52 pm
I don't know why we're still making Patrik relevant.
Happy Anarchy
Nov 5, 19 8:59 pm
some people are their work and you can't really compare a business to a life.
OddArchitect
Nov 6, 19 2:08 pm
Yes you can.
Happy Anarchy
Nov 6, 19 8:39 pm
how? one person "works" 120 hours a week and the other has some plan with spreadsheets.
Happy Anarchy
Nov 5, 19 8:59 pm
for the record I am a business owner now so the fact I work 6am to midnight all week days and sometimes more (22 hours not rare) and then work at least 8 hours over weekend if I don't decide to get extremely drunk to self-medicate all the anxiety and nerves from just wondering where the next one is coming from or what psycho client is going to let loose at 5am in the morning about their time crunch panic attack....
so yes 80+ hours a week, 52 weeks a year, I work during vacation, and I'm barely noticable in the real world, but I have a firm! (41 years old, major metropolitan area, and I made more than my parents since my first architecture job...) so what, work smart not hard.
I don't like smart, its lazy (kidding).
with that said, I pay by the hour, expect 9-6 x 5 days if you do more I pay time and half. Compared to other small firms I pay at the top end and if you worked overtime you could make 6 digits working for me just with 3 years experience, because I always thought that was what I worth. Quit being salary after barely 3 years in this business.
if you're name isn't on the door I don't think you can be productive beyond 40-45 hours without major incentives or something like a 3 day weekend, 4 day work week.
and yes I plan on dieing, working, as an architect.
Happy Anarchy! (imagine if I was a degenerate, what kind of dedication man)
Non Sequitur
Nov 5, 19 9:05 pm
What are you drinking tonight?
Happy Anarchy
Nov 5, 19 10:38 pm
only did 12 hour today, stopped at 630 (i work while in transit) between 630 and 830 had drinks and dinner with relative I hadn't seen in 20 years. in those 2 hours had 12 calls, 12 texts divided between (3) contractors, (1) realtor, (1) management. (2) contractors were in panic mode - one because of the realtor and other because his subs don't listen to him and he can't read drawings (good combo)....only responded to (1) management company as they are about 20% of our revenue. 2 hours I didn't pay attention after typical work hours....so I will awake at 5am tomorrow to get a leg up on it.......drank a Duvel, Hofbrau, and Bronx Summer Ale.
Non Sequitur
Nov 6, 19 6:09 am
If it keeps you knee deep in duvels, it ain’t a bad way to go.
OddArchitect
Nov 6, 19 2:09 pm
Happy - what types of projects are you doing that your clients and contractors are that needy?
Happy Anarchy
Nov 6, 19 8:38 pm
contractors - either we went from schematics to construction overnight and we're filing in the blanks as we go or the contractor is very green and I'm esentially a mentor/coach
realtors - either selling or buying you need either space studies in 5 minutes or close out legal issues before closing
clients - the "needy" ones are one who have never taken on a project before and of course think their project is the only one the office is working on and have neurotic anxiety issues or have some political scheme that needs constant narration in the architect's ear...they have money too, so we work for them
What does everyone think about the 4 day work week in architecture?
https://theconversation.com/the-ethics-of-the-4-day-work-week-its-not-just-about-the-hours-124418
When I read about 4-day weeks, it seems most say they work 9-10 hours per day, mon through thur, then take a 3 day weekend. I'm not in favour of this since that eliminates any useful time at home in the evenings for 4 days.
This article suggest a straight 4day week for 32hr. Who wants to take a 20% salary cut for that extra day off?
Other industries often get paid lunches. In 20 years of working in higher ed, public administration and marketing (yes, 3 different industries), my wife has always had paid lunch breaks.
Why is a 20% salary cut assumed?
Well, how else could you justify the change? You don't just get the same $ for less hours.
you could if you measured outcomes instead of hours
...also you could if you had clients and construction schedules that could absorb a 20% increase in delivery times. I just dont understand how people think things will get completed in less time (hence the 20% figure) if you work a 4day/32hr week vs a 5day/40hr especially if you're expecting the same compensation.
You don't just become 20% more efficient by having less required weekly hours.
^ this. I would love to see an office let go of the hourly billing model and instead focus on completion of tasks and outcomes.
Note that "^ this" was referring to tintt's comment, not Non's. I do agree with Non's comment that 32 hrs does not equal 40 hrs ... which is why I think it would be interesting to see an office get away from an hourly mentality and instead focus on outcome. I'm assuming this is how tintt manages her contract work, which makes sense and is probably normal, but I've never heard of an entire office being managed this way.
Some of my work is hourly and some is not. I like to mix it up. I like that for results-oriented work I can take frequent breaks when I need to like when working on difficult and tedious stuff (cause sometimes an answer just pops into your head that can't come when you are staring at a screen) and I like that I can work on difficult stuff when I'm at my best (mornings) and do easier stuff when I'm feeling lazier. Some days I like the marathon pace and some days I like to run sprints. Cross-training. I get burned out when every day feels the same and I'm expected to perform continuously for a set part of the day. Plus then I can never watch any Dr Phil. Just kidding.
i did this during the recession with a 20% salary cut while our office struggled to stay solvent. it was great. i spent the 5th day at home working on my own projects or painting / drawing art. luckily i was paid ok to start with, and had a cheap lifestyle.
if you could be ambitious and keep on track to climb the ladder while working 4 days a week, i'd sign right up. it's not all about the money though - the other aspects of signalling value to colleagues and clients unfortunately matter.
otoh i had a 4 day weekend planned this week. after 2 days at home with my dear family, i got a call from an acquaintance looking for help at a meeting with an old client - for a nice fee - and said hell yeah. a morning out of the house, lunch with an old client, and $800, sounds fun.
to some extent, this will always only be possible at the bottom. as you move up in responsibility and freedom, you actually want to do as much as you can. the line between work and social activity blurs a lot. i do think as a society we should push to make this an option for employees who desire it - or more broadly, allow for nonstandard work scheduling and time commitments. it's largely a management issue, though socializing many of the obligations placed on employers would help greatly.
but children should keep to a 5 day school week. maybe 5.5 even :P
Very good points. One thing some might not realize is that someone needs to be available when the client calls. We have a handful of staff on modified schedules and it can be a pain when they are the expected contact for a project... gets even more frustrating when it's a repeat client looking to get new project started. Dito for construction admin. So those with direct client interactions and who control productivity can't really make a 4day week work.
Pay for my phone and I'll answer it, simple as that.
instead of paying for your phone you get reimbursed for your phone, so you don't need to manage both a person and professional one. also, that way you get the phone and provider you want and put whatever aps you want on it. that reimbursement is included in the salary you already receive.
I think it is more difficult for professional service providers than product providers, especially one that is as race-to-the-bottom as commercial design. The work done and deadlines are contingent on the client, who are in turn abiding by deadlines set by the authorities and the market, as well other coordinated parties. Unless there is broad consensus among all these players, an architectural service provider that sticks to its own work schedule could be out-flanked by a firm that offers to work more for less. An unfortunate problem endemic to most rungs of the business. There's a story in the ODA monograph about a ten day design process for the 420 Kent project in Williamsburg - the firm could have said no to Eliot Spitzer's development firm and surrendered the opportunity to design the project. The developer in turn appeared to be hobnobbed by government deadlines and market conditions - thus the short notice/
good point - the most severe scheduling pressures always come from deadlines by the client due to meeting unreasonable obligations for financing or government submissions / revisions. those are things over which the clients have no control. it's going to require a more systematic review of the conditions within each industry if society as a whole wants to change this norm. it's not primarily architect-bosses driving the problem.
I'd love to see a comparison with other industries that require extensive coordination for large projects. The aerospace industry also seems to have big coordination challenges driven by the inherent complexities of precision manufacturing, worldwide logistics, competitive market, threat of litigation, and big factors beyond the company's control (Global economics and government regulations/policies). Would love to see how those guys handle their workload. I find comparisons with other professions less relevant - especially those which don't require as much external coordination as the construction industry or those which have the power to dictate timelines and schedules.
werk
That's a sexy monitor. I like that the blouse matches the vent grilles.
I do 11's every day. Gym, surf, socialize as well. So eliminating useful evening time wouldn't be a problem on a 4x10 schedule. The main problem is coworkers with Non's attitude. This is how we do it any deviation wont work! From personal experience with flexible work schedules, both a pay reduction to reduce hours at one firm and a work at home once a week at another, you really need to constantly remind coworkers with that attitude that it's a policy that's open to everyone or that you are in fact making less money because of it. It really is awesome, burnout is no where to be found, you are definitely happier and way more efficient.
What's my attitude exactly here? I think yours is far shittier than mine: foregoing evenings and / or working 11hr days is better than a normal 5day work-week.
I work CM now. I'd like to implement a flexible schedule for my team if I ever make PM.
Flexible that covers most of the typical office work hours works. Gets harder if everyone is away at once tho.
Non, I think archi_dude doesnt have kids, and will never do with his/her 11 hour days...
We used to work 4-10's at the design/build firm I worked for. I often ended up coming in for half a day on Fridays or over the weekend but it was still a good system overall. Working 7-5:30 with 1/2 hour for lunch isn't that bad once you get used to it.
For the last few years, self-employed, I often work at least 10-12 hour days 5-6 days/week and half-days the remaining days. 4-10's sounds like a walk in the park in comparison.
Our office does 4 1/2 day work weeks. 7am to 5pm Mon-Thurs and 7am-11am on Friday. Seems to work great for us. Our clients and consultants don't have an issue with it and we're actually more productive. This is probably because it's easy to put in a few more hours on a Friday . . . got to love unpaid overtime.
France has a 35 hour work week. Denmark 37, with a goal of lowering it to 30.
To be fair that's not for architects.
My office is 37.5 hours. In Canada. It can be done.
37.5 here too for like 75% of the staff. I'm most PA and CM, so my hours are closer to 42-45.
France is not a real country, never won a war.
I work four nines and a four. It's a pretty sweet schedule. The four hour day is typically spent just doing paperwork, management things, or word processing (studies/reports). I don't work overtime unless it's absolutely necessary. If I didn't have a commute of over an hour each way, it'd be just about perfect.
Could I cut the four hour day? Probably. But it would crowd the rest of my schedule; I enjoy having a day dedicated to certain types of tasks. I could probably just move it to half of another day of the week.
The biggest problem I see is client and contractor expectations. Contractors are becoming easier because most of them I deal with are working 4 ten hour days anyway. I rarely hear from most of them on Fridays. Owners expect instant gratification at all times. We've moved on from phone calls, letters, and hard copies of everything being mailed around. Everyone wants something and wants it now, via text or email. Who is going to keep them happy on your day off? You are. That's who.
I never give clients a cellphone number.
With that commute you’re working four 11’s and 6. That’s a 50 hr week.
I don't commute on the half day, typically. But yes, I'm gone from home a lot, and have a 1 year old. Like I said, if I didn't have the commute, it's a pretty sweet schedule.
senjohn, how do you actually make sure your dedicated day stays dedicated? I swear since I became a PM the ONLY way I get any dedicated time for anything is to do it after 6pm or on the weekend when on one else is in the office bugging me for attention. Do you set up an out of office reply or pull an invisibility cloak around your desk or something?!
I work remotely 98% of the time on that day. I could probably manage it pretty well in our office. We have a lot of people who work four 10 hour days, and several part time folks. So, they aren't there on Fridays. I work in a corner in the basement, so that helps too. The lack of people and remoteness of my office makes Friday's fairly slow, if I'm in the office.
https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-4-day-work-week-boosts-productivity-2019-11
but imagine making the 4 x 2 in 7...
the office I run has had a standard 4 days @ 10 hrs/day for 18 years. Works well, with each staffer member choosing to which day they don't want to come in, some like the long weekend while others choose a day mid week to resolve domestic child care issues etc. I don't mind what ever they chose it's just more a matter of educating clients and contractors to be aware of the timing and scheduling issues. Not difficult to manage, maintain or emphasize to our clients. Everyone is respectful and supportive when they see it doesn't impact the project and staff are happier and more self empowered.
Yup! This comment wins.
My ideal week would be Four 9-hour days. There's no way I get that much more done in 40 hours than 36. Overtime always happens near deadlines, but 4 9's would be a great baseline.
That sounds pretty good. My goal is to get to 30 hrs, with at least 15 billable. I have a long way to go...
If I were opening a firm, it'd be four 9's starting out. Probably wouldn't have enough work to fill out 40 hour weeks for all employees. And on the weeks that you do, you'd have a cushion before overtime kicked in.
I work 1-2 twelve to fifteen hour days. Then 1-2 six to eight hour days. Then 1-2 two to four hour days. With breaks.
My favorite is a firm I know does set office hours 9'ish-3, 4 days a week; a required 20 hour minimum to be available to co-workers and clients. They expect 40’ish hours (based on the assignments and tasks given), but leave it up to the individual for that extra time to get the assignment done. So, night owls and early birds do well. Personally, I think its brilliant. Does a fine job giving employees a chance to balance their life/work without trying to dictate their personal schedule to just weekends and evenings. btw; it's also perfectly acceptable to 'do not disturb' when outside those hours so you can focus on your task without interuption. Their client is just sort of are informed when it's easiest to reach you.
Very interesting.
I worked at a firm like that - everyone was expected to be there 10-3 M-F (except scheduled meetings and lunch, of course) and the rest of your 40 hours was for you to fill in. I have always suffered from no consistent sleep pattern, so there'd be days I was in at 6 and out at 3, days I was in at 10 and out at 7, and days I was only there 10-3 and made it up by coming in on the weekend. The amusing thing was, there was one principal who was convinced I was the most dedicated worker there, because some days he'd see me already there when he came in and other days he'd see me still working when he left - he never figured out that it was rarely both on the same day and I really was working right around 40...
any way to negotiate the 32 hrs with the firm.?
Some people in our office do 32 hour weeks and I admit I'm envious. And I'm 100% certain I'd be more productive in four 8-hour days than in my current five-10 hours days. I'm so fucking burnt out.
Me too
I’m a fan of the 7:30am to 5:30pm then 9pm to 3am when I need to turn up the heat. I definitely prefer that over working 8am to 8pm steady.
lots of ppl gonna be doing 0 hours when robots take your job and your wife
Interesting and topical:
https://mspoweruser.com/micros...
Microsoft Japan did a trial this summer and found several benefits to a 4-day work week.
I do 5x 0830 to 1730, with approx 1.5hr of commuting. My total working week including the driving is between 55 and 60hrs. 24x7 exhausted. Ouf of the house on average for 11hrs à day 5 days à week. No time for family, always burnt out at weekends. I'm paid 40hrs and I was at 80% billable hrs, not I'm at 70%. Its looking at a screen that wears me out.
Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but I'd rather do 4x12 and get 3 off, or lose the commute!
I would love for society to go get away from the militaristic, regimented system we acclimate to at a young age. It's inefficient and has soured our psyche.
I think the only way to make this happen is for some protections for white collar workers to finally be implemented. At least get rid of the BS salary = unlimited dedication / time. I know, I know you can quit find a new job but I really don't see much of a change until this happens. I'm on the CM side now and I see a lot of source for crazy deadlines is the mentality of needing it immediately by the clients and investors. Both architects and contractors give in so they can keep the workflow coming in. This then rolls down on workers. The investors are fine, I see a building that's sat vacant for years all of sudden "needing" to be built out ASAP because the finance side finally greenlighted its buildout. Cue crazy impossible deadline to start generating revenue and returns asap. If there were some laws establishing a maximum overtime or even mandatory overtime I think we'd see some lengthening of these schedules again. And the investors would still just be doing fine.
Mandatory overtime pay
We pay OT above 37.5hr per week for production staff (non inner-circle management folks). I've just made the leap into this inner circle which means I've replaced my OT compensation with a share of office profit. Since OT compensation comes out first (profit is distributed annually), there is an incentive for management to reduce overhead and OT costs. There is always going to be a better office. No excuse for those who become complacent with a bad place and expect everything to change to suit them.
seems like a no brainer. 4 x 10hr a week is way more productive and healthy than 5x8hr.
I’m in the midst of hiring a few workers and expanding from a one man show to a small company...I’m doing a 4 day a week work schedule. I’m also doing a 1 hour lunch family style with home cooking provided at least 2 days a week. Our current system is unhealthy and depressing. Plan on doing my small part to change that...
I strongly disagree. I want to be home every weeknight before 6pm (assuming 10hr day is 8am to 7pm + 1hr lunch).
The hour lunch would be included.
And leading at 5 sucks. Leaving later let’s you miss the bulk of traffic
Traffic does not really impact me since I dont drive and 90% of the downtown workforce are federal employees... so they all leave at 3pm anyways.
edit, I did not see your above potluck comment before making my first reply. How's your cooking?
I cook every day non. I’m good at cooking any Italian food or Mexican. Even make my own bread and pizza. My best is a seafood pasta with a sauce I make from roasted tomatoes and herbs...people have said it’s the best pasta dish they've ever had :) Was considering dumping design and going into culinary, but too much work and hours in that biz.
Cushy gov public service gigs are 35hr/week, maybe. many are 8am-3pm give or take an hour or so. Most are replaceable/forgettable roles so very few take their job seriously compared to the private sector. They get paid more and do very little work (and their union and annual strikes are a huge burden on everyone), but it's dreadful work.
So instead I’ll just cook for my peps
I should not have asked during lunch time. Now I want seafood pasta.
:)
Could I have burger please?
My wife is a Fed. Two days a week in the office for a 6 hour phone shift. Otherwise, it is teleworking and just doing the case files by the deadlines or training. That equates to about 20 hours for her which she schedules around the kids. But, she makes about 60% of what she did in the private sector that forced 60 hour work weeks and had massive turnover and layoffs.
"Was considering dumping design and going into culinary, but too much work and hours in that biz."
Same. I bartended/served for a while during the recession. If you think the architecture industry has shitty hours, hoo boy.
I enjoy cooking as a hobby too much to ruin it by turning it into a job.
Maybe we should have a "What's cookin?" thread?
(4x) 12 hr days that generate redlines that must be picked up friday, an other 12 hour day + Sunday = 72 hours -
F#*k those hours code. No matter how great the project or much you'd pay me I would not destroy my life by working those hours.
This is not a good brag. I've only passed the 70hr mark 3 times in 10+ years.
When I just started I happened on a team that had an owner who changed the entire project and didn't want the deadline to move and was ready to open their wallet for it. The firm expanded the team from 4 to 8, and asked the interns who would be willing to work 5x16s + 12 on sat and 8 on sunday... 100 hours. I signed on and it lasted 5 weeks. We got a special bonus at the end (which as I recall basically covered what I would have been paid if it was all overtime pay) and they provided lunch and dinner. Dinners were actually a big affair where each team member got to pick the place and we all took an hour off to eat and chat.
I could never do this again, and I appreciate that the firm asked for volunteers, but at the time I didn't mind it.
I could do that 1 week in a crunch (and have), but 2 weeks in a row, or more than once or twice a year, and I'd be out the door. I know there are firms that expect this regularly (see the Patrik Schumacher discussion below), but I believe such firms should be shunned and publicly shamed just as much as the firms with the unpaid internships.
code, you looking for job?
I personally find that anything over 9 hours a day leaves me with little energy to do other things after work.
Related: https://www.dezeen.com/2019/11/05/patrik-schumacher-harriet-harriss-architecture-long-hours-dezeen-day/
You can tell Patrik is wrong here because he's lying about his argument.
Not forcing your employees to work long hours is not the same as forcing your employees to not work long hours.
It is the nature of creative work, or maybe of creative workers, that sometimes one gets hyperfocused and can work many, many hours. The problem with Patrik, and many like him in the profession, is that they believe it's reasonable to expect his to be everyone's default work mode, all the time, and that people who can't sustain it day in and day out are therefore unfit to work in the profession.
Exactly. It's about the choice, not a requirement one way or the other.
Yep. I personally, don't care if the person next to be feels the need to put it more or less hours - which is where, in the profession, hourly+OT as opposed to salary makes sense to me. Also, in a business standpoint, it makes sense to only allow OT when the project needs it. However, if everyone is on salary...things get a little more convoluted and allows for foul play. I've also found that bonuses can be used as the carrot at the end of the stick.
I agree. I worked for a firm that the only way you got a year end bonus was for working OT. Over five years the bonus only once equaled the base hourly rate for the OT I worked. Most years it was 50%.
In Liberland the masters relax by the pool, waited on hand and foot by naked slaves while the minions toil in dungeons below.
Frankly, our profession is task-based, not hour based. If I can complete my expected amount of work in 4 fewer hours than a colleague, I should be able to work 4 fewer hours for similar pay.
A place I used to work had a great policy of setting milestone deadlines for Wednesdays. Not only did it build in a couple of buffer days in case we ran behind, but we were done for the week when we hit the milestone. Sometimes it was late Friday, but a lot of times we earned a 3.5-4 day weekend by staying on target.
tduds: Hmm... yes you are correct in that we're tasked-based, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive. From a management POV, if the employees were salaried and there's enough work you're going to work on the next task. You're not going home early just because you finished your homework early.
Also, I think that office environment you mentioned is extremely rare.
It is very rare, but I wish it wasn't. My overall thought is that - if my reward for efficiency is just more work, there's no incentive for me to be efficient. I get profit share now so the incentive model is a bit different, but I think more firms should prioritize balance. Otherwise you'll end up with half your office coasting & the other half burned out. That's not how you get quality.
Exactly, no incentive, no balance of work load, etc. and that's how most firms I've personally experienced and vicariously experienced, operate. In finance there's what's called the utilization rate - the % of time a person does doing billable work. I have never seen an office actually calculate or have constant awareness of this, but I think going hourly would enforce it.
Almost all firms I've worked at calculated and could pull up any employee's utilization rate in a minute or two. This is usually built into whatever they are using for timesheets. In some offices it mattered more than others. It has nothing to do with being hourly vs. salary.
EA: You're right, it has nothing to do with hourly vs.salary. I don't even know why I brought it up.
The biggest issue I have with the whole utilization rate metric is that I have yet to see an office account for worker efficiency with this. If, for example, it takes tduds 36 hours what it takes me to do in 40, but we are both being measured for our billable time, I look like the better worker with 100% utilization compared to tduds' 90%.
One office I worked in seemed to calculate utilization on a 40-hour work week regardless of how many hours you actually worked. So if you were really inefficient and worked overtime you could have over 100% utilization. The really annoying part about that office is that they would usually bring up your utilization rate when you wanted a raise, or they were handing out bonuses, which meant that it penalized those who were more efficient. I brought this up in one of my salary negotiations, and you could tell the principal had never considered this. His only response was that I should be taking on other tasks to remain above the target utilization rate ... I passive aggressively implied that he/the firm should win more work.
this sounds like incompetent management. utilization rate isn't a measurement of performance; it's a measurement of availability for billable tasks. in general it should be lower for more senior level positions. senior management was often less than 50% - they spent most of their time on office management and building client relationships, not billable work. deviations from target utilization rates are symptoms of poor work planning by the pm, or an inadequate amount of incoming work for the staff, or possibly an employee given the wrong role for their skills. it's not relevant to consider individual employees utilization rate unless they are fully in charge of their own task assignments and scheduling, which again would be poor management.
Tduds, are you suggesting that for example, if one person was asked to complete a certain set of drawings and coordination tasks and they burn through them by wednesday, they can just fuck-off (politely) and take a 5 day weekend? I don't think that works. Control of deliverables and reasonable scheduling is better and having most of your staff on hand for most of the workweek helps when the eventual problems occur. Perhaps I just don't agree with the piecing apart of a project and giving staff their own sandbox to play in. There is one deadline and one team. More efficient team members get rewarded with better compensation and better project/career opportunities while the slackers stay at the bottom. (and unfortunately become a loud parasitic voice behind the otherwise good intentions of the pro-union folks). My 2 canadian cent's worth. Time for a beer.
to clarify, utilization rate is a project management / work plan metric. it helps you know how much time you can 'assign' to certain individuals. it's not a performance measurement. if someone is exceeding their target utilization, their workload is being mismanaged, or they are doing the wrong job for their position. if a managing principal is spending 38 hours a week drawing details, their utilization will be high, but they are hopelessly failing at their role as a manager.
agree w non here. architecture is very much a team project. everyone has strengths and a focus within their team, but it's a dysfunctional team that gives people such limited roles that they can finish on wednesday and leave for the week while others stay in the office plugging away. this can really only work in a small office where incoming work is limited, and so nothing else is ready to do once one project milestone is done. it's also not necessarily a sign of personal efficiency. some clients are easy, some projects run smoothly. some don't - and that's not usually the fault of the individual staff.
I completely agree with you on the incompetent management comment midlander. One of the many reasons I don't work for them anymore. Cheers!
Non - To clarify, it was team based. & only for milestones. So, for example, we targeted to submit for permit on a Wednesday. If we busted our asses and got the permit set in on Wednesday (or Thursday, or Friday morning), the team was good for the week.
Those Monday deadlines though. Who does that?
Sooo Patrik, didn't Zaha die of a heart attack, she made the ultimate sacrifice - chain smoking, "we work all the time" Zaha
I don't know why we're still making Patrik relevant.
some people are their work and you can't really compare a business to a life.
Yes you can.
how? one person "works" 120 hours a week and the other has some plan with spreadsheets.
for the record I am a business owner now so the fact I work 6am to midnight all week days and sometimes more (22 hours not rare) and then work at least 8 hours over weekend if I don't decide to get extremely drunk to self-medicate all the anxiety and nerves from just wondering where the next one is coming from or what psycho client is going to let loose at 5am in the morning about their time crunch panic attack....
so yes 80+ hours a week, 52 weeks a year, I work during vacation, and I'm barely noticable in the real world, but I have a firm! (41 years old, major metropolitan area, and I made more than my parents since my first architecture job...) so what, work smart not hard.
I don't like smart, its lazy (kidding).
with that said, I pay by the hour, expect 9-6 x 5 days if you do more I pay time and half. Compared to other small firms I pay at the top end and if you worked overtime you could make 6 digits working for me just with 3 years experience, because I always thought that was what I worth. Quit being salary after barely 3 years in this business.
if you're name isn't on the door I don't think you can be productive beyond 40-45 hours without major incentives or something like a 3 day weekend, 4 day work week.
and yes I plan on dieing, working, as an architect.
Happy Anarchy! (imagine if I was a degenerate, what kind of dedication man)
What are you drinking tonight?
only did 12 hour today, stopped at 630 (i work while in transit) between 630 and 830 had drinks and dinner with relative I hadn't seen in 20 years. in those 2 hours had 12 calls, 12 texts divided between (3) contractors, (1) realtor, (1) management. (2) contractors were in panic mode - one because of the realtor and other because his subs don't listen to him and he can't read drawings (good combo)....only responded to (1) management company as they are about 20% of our revenue. 2 hours I didn't pay attention after typical work hours....so I will awake at 5am tomorrow to get a leg up on it.......drank a Duvel, Hofbrau, and Bronx Summer Ale.
If it keeps you knee deep in duvels, it ain’t a bad way to go.
Happy - what types of projects are you doing that your clients and contractors are that needy?
contractors - either we went from schematics to construction overnight and we're filing in the blanks as we go or the contractor is very green and I'm esentially a mentor/coach
realtors - either selling or buying you need either space studies in 5 minutes or close out legal issues before closing
clients - the "needy" ones are one who have never taken on a project before and of course think their project is the only one the office is working on and have neurotic anxiety issues or have some political scheme that needs constant narration in the architect's ear...they have money too, so we work for them
ROWE is the only path forward.
Timely: https://archinect.com/news/article/150168373/8-kpis-that-can-make-or-break-your-architecture-firm