Hi all, Some background: I'm still very new to the field - I'm still in undergrad and have been at a firm for about a year now. It is the first firm I have worked at and in the very beginning I was new to the whole process in a professional setting.
Originally, I interpreted "redlines" as a way to teach the new kid what was done wrong and what to do since I did not know better about certain things. I'd print out a sheet of my drawing, bring it to my principal, he'd mark it up, explain some things, and I'd go on my way. As time went on, I began to feel guilty that we would still sit down and do these redlines because I interpreted it as my lack of knowledge and that I should not make him have to do this time consuming process still. My plumbing plans would not be ideal, my site plans needed some additional details, I'd have to move around some drawings/schedules on the layouts, assistance placing kitchen equipment and filling out the schedule, mechanical calculations, etc.
I understand that at this point in my development that this is natural, but I was wondering at what level/stage should there be a dramatic decrease in having to do this process. Looking a little more online about it does help alleviate some anxiety as it seems like a very common practice, but at what REASONABLE point do redlines become rare? I say reasonable because I know some of you are/were star students and probably flew past that stage, but for my sanity what do you think is an average?
Thank you all for your feedback and have a lovely day.
Non Sequitur
Apr 30, 19 4:06 pm
They won't stop until you get comfortable with the shit you're drawing. No one flys past this stage in the real world so don't beat yourself up for it. This is not what is taught in schools, but what is taught is intelligent problem solving.
Ask yourself when you get your next set of corrections... did you try to solve the issue? where you clear in your details and or layouts? are you being careless with convention or labelling? all of these take practice and as long as you're not constantly making the same mistakes, management will keep pushing you along as you (hopefully) improve.
So to answer, there is no point where they stop until you're the one assigning red lines to junior staff.
thatsthat
Apr 30, 19 4:40 pm
NS has good advice. Before you start correcting the drawing, read through what received, try to understand why your supervisor marked certain things. Next time you work on a drawing, try to implement conventions you saw previously. If something doesn't make sense, ask.
senjohnblutarsky
Apr 30, 19 4:07 pm
Starting out, you're probably given simpler tasks. As you advance, the tasks get harder. I wouldn't expect the amount of redlines to decrease until you've started covering all the available tasks. Your amount of redlines on those older, simpler tasks should decrease. But when you're still doing new things, you should expect there to be a learning curve.
If you find yourself still getting covered with redlines after you've been fully introduced to all the generic aspects of CDs, then it might be time to reevaluate your status. There are design/production staff in my office who have been at this for 30 years still getting redlines. It's the kind of redline that matters. If they're correcting your mistakes years down the road, they're not going to be happy. If they're just making design changes and system changes, then it's no big deal.
I still get redlines from other people when I'm working on their projects. I give out redlines when other people are working on my projects. They never go away.
I used to get irritated on projects where I'd draw something one way, Architect would change it. I'd draw it his way. He'd change it back to what I had originally. Those are the frustrating redlines.
gibbost
Apr 30, 19 6:01 pm
I still get redlines from other people when I'm working on their projects. I give out redlines when other people are working on my projects. They never go away.
In some respects, redlines sum up the architect experience. We never stop designing or improving or problem solving. If allowed, we'd bleed red ink over every drawing ever . . . but at a certain point, the owner and contractor kindly step in to ask for a 'final' set of drawings.
kjdt
Apr 30, 19 4:14 pm
It's an important process for coordinating drawings and disciplines, communicating changes that happen in the design process, and part of the QA system of most firms. Unless you're a one-person firm you'll always have redlines. Even when I was a one-person firm I redlined my own work - but it's always better to have multiple sets of eyes.
Of course these days some firms "redline" in a less literal way than with a red pen, as there are all sorts of technologies that can let this happen directly in models, and long-distance, and in ways that can be tracked for posterity. But however it's done, you're not likely to come to a point in your career where redlines are rare. You might better be able to measure your career development by what % of the redlines you're generating, vs. picking up - but even then it may not be 100% vs. 0% - and that's not a bad thing, it's just part of the back-and-forth of the design and coordination processes.
thisisnotmyname
Apr 30, 19 4:29 pm
It can be helpful if your supervisor can give you a printed set of what they consider a "good set of drawings". Examples of how particular kinds of sheets are laid out and done can be very instructive about both content and drawing techniques.
I don't mind redlining junior people's work. The problems start when I have to redline similar kinds of errors repeatedly over time by the same person.
thatsthat
Apr 30, 19 4:37 pm
I still get redlines from other people when I'm working on their projects. I give out redlines when other people are working on my projects. They never go away.
This is exactly right. As a project architect, I redline for others, and even still redline sets for myself. The sets for myself are more reminders to include certain notes/details than specific instructions on how to detail something. I work with draftsmen that are right out of school and some that are career draftsmen who have been working in CAD for 15+ years. Even they still get redlines. It's just a part of the business. Yes, the more you learn, the less you'll need. You'll start to pick up your office's noting style, phrases they like to use, typical ways they like to detail drains, roofs, etc., and you'll need less help eventually. But don't stress yourself out about it. It's more important that you're asking questions.
Side story: I used to have a PM who didn't believe in giving traditional redlines. She would fill out an excel spreadsheet with the sheet number in one column, a description of the mistake in one column, and a description of the correction in a third column. It was so confusing.
thisisnotmyname
Apr 30, 19 4:48 pm
The spreadsheet method is a thing. We have dealt with some mega-size engineering firms who did things that way. I think some military clients use it as well.
thatsthat
Apr 30, 19 5:13 pm
We have clients that provide us comments on our sets in this format but she's the only supervisor I've had do it for in-house redlining. I still think it's the worst.
gibbost
Apr 30, 19 4:56 pm
Drawing mark-ups can often simply be a measure of how one individual does something vs. another. Once it becomes your project to manage, you find yourself redlining something simply to make it 'your way'. Sheet formatting, text alignment, etc all become nuances of each project manager. Certainly, you should pay attention to the content and the 'buildability' of your details, but don't get upset by the amount of redlines--it's rarely a sign of incompetence. In fact, if it's a sheet that is a complete disaster, I place only one redline at the top--'please spend some more time on this and reprint'.
atelier nobody
Apr 30, 19 5:33 pm
If you're familiar with Gladwell's 10,000 hours idea, that's about 5 years working full time if you do nothing else, so more like 10+ years working full time for most people.
tduds
Apr 30, 19 5:47 pm
Redlines never go away. They only get more important.
alle
Apr 30, 19 6:42 pm
'Redlines??I don't know what that term means!'
Quote of a licensed project architect at a firm I used to work for.
(Yes the firm was that bad, check my previous thread)
atelier nobody
Apr 30, 19 9:27 pm
It's sad the number of principals I've worked for that schmoozed their way to the top without ever learning how to put a set of CDs together.
Hi all,
Some background: I'm still very new to the field - I'm still in undergrad and have been at a firm for about a year now. It is the first firm I have worked at and in the very beginning I was new to the whole process in a professional setting.
Originally, I interpreted "redlines" as a way to teach the new kid what was done wrong and what to do since I did not know better about certain things. I'd print out a sheet of my drawing, bring it to my principal, he'd mark it up, explain some things, and I'd go on my way. As time went on, I began to feel guilty that we would still sit down and do these redlines because I interpreted it as my lack of knowledge and that I should not make him have to do this time consuming process still. My plumbing plans would not be ideal, my site plans needed some additional details, I'd have to move around some drawings/schedules on the layouts, assistance placing kitchen equipment and filling out the schedule, mechanical calculations, etc.
I understand that at this point in my development that this is natural, but I was wondering at what level/stage should there be a dramatic decrease in having to do this process. Looking a little more online about it does help alleviate some anxiety as it seems like a very common practice, but at what REASONABLE point do redlines become rare? I say reasonable because I know some of you are/were star students and probably flew past that stage, but for my sanity what do you think is an average?
Thank you all for your feedback and have a lovely day.
They won't stop until you get comfortable with the shit you're drawing. No one flys past this stage in the real world so don't beat yourself up for it. This is not what is taught in schools, but what is taught is intelligent problem solving.
Ask yourself when you get your next set of corrections... did you try to solve the issue? where you clear in your details and or layouts? are you being careless with convention or labelling? all of these take practice and as long as you're not constantly making the same mistakes, management will keep pushing you along as you (hopefully) improve.
So to answer, there is no point where they stop until you're the one assigning red lines to junior staff.
NS has good advice. Before you start correcting the drawing, read through what received, try to understand why your supervisor marked certain things. Next time you work on a drawing, try to implement conventions you saw previously. If something doesn't make sense, ask.
Starting out, you're probably given simpler tasks. As you advance, the tasks get harder. I wouldn't expect the amount of redlines to decrease until you've started covering all the available tasks. Your amount of redlines on those older, simpler tasks should decrease. But when you're still doing new things, you should expect there to be a learning curve.
If you find yourself still getting covered with redlines after you've been fully introduced to all the generic aspects of CDs, then it might be time to reevaluate your status. There are design/production staff in my office who have been at this for 30 years still getting redlines. It's the kind of redline that matters. If they're correcting your mistakes years down the road, they're not going to be happy. If they're just making design changes and system changes, then it's no big deal.
I still get redlines from other people when I'm working on their projects. I give out redlines when other people are working on my projects. They never go away.
I used to get irritated on projects where I'd draw something one way, Architect would change it. I'd draw it his way. He'd change it back to what I had originally. Those are the frustrating redlines.
I still get redlines from other people when I'm working on their projects. I give out redlines when other people are working on my projects. They never go away.
In some respects, redlines sum up the architect experience. We never stop designing or improving or problem solving. If allowed, we'd bleed red ink over every drawing ever . . . but at a certain point, the owner and contractor kindly step in to ask for a 'final' set of drawings.
It's an important process for coordinating drawings and disciplines, communicating changes that happen in the design process, and part of the QA system of most firms. Unless you're a one-person firm you'll always have redlines. Even when I was a one-person firm I redlined my own work - but it's always better to have multiple sets of eyes.
Of course these days some firms "redline" in a less literal way than with a red pen, as there are all sorts of technologies that can let this happen directly in models, and long-distance, and in ways that can be tracked for posterity. But however it's done, you're not likely to come to a point in your career where redlines are rare. You might better be able to measure your career development by what % of the redlines you're generating, vs. picking up - but even then it may not be 100% vs. 0% - and that's not a bad thing, it's just part of the back-and-forth of the design and coordination processes.
It can be helpful if your supervisor can give you a printed set of what they consider a "good set of drawings". Examples of how particular kinds of sheets are laid out and done can be very instructive about both content and drawing techniques.
I don't mind redlining junior people's work. The problems start when I have to redline similar kinds of errors repeatedly over time by the same person.
I still get redlines from other people when I'm working on their projects. I give out redlines when other people are working on my projects. They never go away.
This is exactly right. As a project architect, I redline for others, and even still redline sets for myself. The sets for myself are more reminders to include certain notes/details than specific instructions on how to detail something. I work with draftsmen that are right out of school and some that are career draftsmen who have been working in CAD for 15+ years. Even they still get redlines. It's just a part of the business. Yes, the more you learn, the less you'll need. You'll start to pick up your office's noting style, phrases they like to use, typical ways they like to detail drains, roofs, etc., and you'll need less help eventually. But don't stress yourself out about it. It's more important that you're asking questions.
Side story: I used to have a PM who didn't believe in giving traditional redlines. She would fill out an excel spreadsheet with the sheet number in one column, a description of the mistake in one column, and a description of the correction in a third column. It was so confusing.
The spreadsheet method is a thing. We have dealt with some mega-size engineering firms who did things that way. I think some military clients use it as well.
We have clients that provide us comments on our sets in this format but she's the only supervisor I've had do it for in-house redlining. I still think it's the worst.
Drawing mark-ups can often simply be a measure of how one individual does something vs. another. Once it becomes your project to manage, you find yourself redlining something simply to make it 'your way'. Sheet formatting, text alignment, etc all become nuances of each project manager. Certainly, you should pay attention to the content and the 'buildability' of your details, but don't get upset by the amount of redlines--it's rarely a sign of incompetence. In fact, if it's a sheet that is a complete disaster, I place only one redline at the top--'please spend some more time on this and reprint'.
If you're familiar with Gladwell's 10,000 hours idea, that's about 5 years working full time if you do nothing else, so more like 10+ years working full time for most people.
Redlines never go away. They only get more important.
'Redlines??I don't know what that term means!'
Quote of a licensed project architect at a firm I used to work for.
(Yes the firm was that bad, check my previous thread)
It's sad the number of principals I've worked for that schmoozed their way to the top without ever learning how to put a set of CDs together.
Are they hiring? Asking for a friend...
Oh you don't want to work there. Trust me.