Yes, I do my own drafting. I have a pencil box of 2H pencils and an electric eraser @!
joseffischer
Mar 27, 19 9:07 pm
I've just hit PM level myself. As a PA, I ultimately touched most of every sheet. My last 3 projects still involved me sitting down with the entire set and redlining everything and then picking up my own redlines (all Revit btw) before I let it out the door. Now as a PM, I'm not supposed to do that anymore... and honestly, it's been a bit rocky. We're supposed to use Bluebeam and more often than not I feel like I could make the corrections on the sheet in the model more quickly. I try to chalk it up to "learning experience" for the team, especially those still working on their IDP/AXP hours... but more often than not, I get blank stares or arguments about how "that's not how I did it last time" from my team.
I'd love to hear from some other PMs how they balance this.
Non Sequitur
Mar 27, 19 9:40 pm
PA here, moving soon to PM. I do all my own drafting and red-lines on my project and occasionally red-line for others. We just don't have enough quality (ie. reliable) drafting team.
curtkram
Mar 27, 19 11:00 pm
NS, if you're going to be leading people, you need to trust them. Don't think 'how do I make this project successful.' every morning you wake up, think 'how do I make this person successful.' if they're successful, then you're successful and you're project is successful. Keep in mind they haven't been through what you've been through yet, and they don't have the experience you have yet.
Non Sequitur
Mar 27, 19 11:31 pm
Curt, it's not specifically that I don't trust them... we just don't have many (available to me). I only have one at this time and this person is very junior and is not ready to draft without significant supervision. I agree with your point tho.
Gloominati
Mar 27, 19 10:16 pm
It varies from firm to firm and person to person. Once when I was interviewing for a senior PM position I was criticized by an interviewer who was incredulous that I was still doing a lot of my own drafting/BIM in my PM position in a small firm. It was clear that he interpreted that to mean that I didn't know how to delegate well, or was a control freak. In his firm no self-respecting PM would squander their time on tasks that someone less experienced could do. But the firm I was coming from had the philosophy that continuity on the project resulted in a better end product than assigning all less-skill-demanding work to others.
won and done williams
Mar 28, 19 11:27 am
I would argue that any firm that has PMs or even PAs drafting has some organizational issues. First, unless you are drafting regularly, you are not going to be as efficient as someone who is drafting everyday. Second, there's too much work to do on a project to have senior-level staff drafting, even at small firms. Third, it's not fair to clients to have senior staff doing drafting work at their higher billable rates. All that being said, I do think that PMs/PAs need to keep their technical skills fresh to the point that they understand how production actually works, even if they are not doing it themselves.
joseffischer
Mar 28, 19 4:47 pm
Interesting third point, given that when working at the PA level, I could put together a set at least half as fast as if I only redlined the drawings and had junior staff put together the set, and at $125/hr, my time would actually save money compared to $90/hr times twice as many hours + my $125/hr oversight time
curtkram
Mar 28, 19 10:15 pm
don't just think of the project you're working on, think of the next project
atelier nobody
Mar 28, 19 1:00 pm
Many years ago, I was the "CAD ace" working for senior people who still thought in pencil. Now I'm the senior guy who still thinks in CAD, working with "drafters" who are using Revit. I actually have taken a couple Revit classes, so I can at least grasp what's going on, but I could no more turn out a project in Revit than flap my arms and fly.
home_alone
Mar 28, 19 4:31 pm
Ok thank you all for the feedback. I don’t feel bad that I can barely draft anymore!
joseffischer
Mar 28, 19 4:48 pm
Agreed, this was great feedback
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 28, 19 8:56 pm
I find that doing both design/leading and drafting doesn't work. When I focus on one or the other and have others to help, it works a lot better. Otherwise I get caught in a vortex of conflicting values.
midlander
Mar 29, 19 1:34 am
^ this. it's difficult to develop a project vision when you also have to figure out how to document it. one side of your brain trying to generate ideas; the other side trying to minimize them.
chigurh
Mar 28, 19 9:06 pm
I kind of equate this to the difference between an office and belt on gc
bowling_ball
Mar 29, 19 12:18 am
I stopped drafting CD sets 2 years after graduation. I'll still occasionally sketch out a site plan in CAD to hand off to a drafting tech, but that's been it for the last 6 years.
As others have said, if you're that far into your career and still drafting, you're either overpaid for that, or underpaid for what you should really be doing (managing projects).
randomised
Mar 29, 19 4:19 am
I'll leave the drafting to the bartender.
sideMan
Mar 29, 19 9:05 am
I draft, design and PM. Small, what I consider to be be one person jobs. For me having the experience allows me to draft as I design. I can draft/design faster than the drafters with less experience because I am making better decision as I draft. The PM portion just makes it more interesting and give me more experience to make better decision the next time. Small projects is the key for me.
Non Sequitur
Mar 29, 19 9:53 am
Fascinating discussion here.
I split my time between PA and PM yet do more than 90% of the drafting as well as the CA parts. I certainly agree that my time could be better spent dealing with site issues, shop drawings, client correspondence, etc... but we simply don't have that type of office structure or drafting staff. What I have found is that my commercial clients prefer to deal directly with the PA who can also act quickly without needing to go ask others to make changes. Our engineering consultants are notorious for this and it angers many clients.
I'm looking to transition more to PM in the near future and since I'm by far the most advanced Revit user, I'm building up our standards to control as much of the drafting process as possible.
won and done williams
Mar 29, 19 10:35 am
There is a real business reason for senior staff not doing drafting. It's proprac 101 and goes back to the concept of leverage. In order to increase profitability, you leverage the work of your more efficient, less expensive junior staff. The staffing model is built like a pyramid with a greater number of junior staff (drafters) at the bottom with a smaller number of owners/partners at the top. The model works for both large and small offices. This link explains the concept pretty well: Leverage Model in Professional Services.
Everyday Architect
Mar 29, 19 11:15 am
It took me a little less than two years to get to a position where I wasn’t doing production drafting. I still redline drawings and sketch out ideas for others to draft, but I don’t do it myself for many of the same reason outlined by others. I don’t even have Revit installed on my machine. At first i missed it a little bit, but now I wouldn’t want to go back. I’ve found better ways to distinguish myself than being a faster draftsperson.
senjohnblutarsky
Mar 29, 19 11:32 am
I'm rolling up on the 10 year mark. Licensed, but not stamping anything. On some projects I'm the PA/semi-PM. Others, I'm the PA. Others, I'm the design/drafting entity. It all depends on who in my office has the project. Plenty of people outrank me. If it's their project, then I'm doing the more menial tasks. If all of our drafting/design staff is occupied, then I'm still the guy.
In the end, it's better to take the most cost effective route. But, it's also good to be able to meet deadlines. If you're in a schedule crunch, it's nice to be able to sit down and crank out drawings. I find its especially helpful to draft during those crunch times because I get it done without having someone else draft, me redline, and them redraft.
It's been a hard transition for me taking on the PA/PM role. My first big project, I was told to trust in the drafting staff. I probably should have involved myself a bit more, because there were a lot of things done that I would have done very differently. Sometimes a decision by a drafter can have implications through the entire project (like what level they model something on). It might not show up until it's way too late and a lot of things are wonky.
Non Sequitur
Mar 29, 19 11:57 am
are.... are we the same person? It's like looking into a mirror.
BulgarBlogger
Mar 29, 19 11:49 am
The OP is such a Primadonna- get over yourself. Yes- drafting is what makes you an architect.
randomised
Mar 29, 19 1:28 pm
No, it makes you a drafter.
BulgarBlogger
Mar 29, 19 1:52 pm
Drafting/Drawing- same thing.
Everyday Architect
Mar 29, 19 2:20 pm
Drafting is not what makes you an architect. Carry on
Witty Banter
Mar 29, 19 2:24 pm
Completely disagree.
BulgarBlogger
Mar 29, 19 3:17 pm
Oh; apologies. Thinking about SPACE without knowing anything about anything else is what being an architect is about. Drawing/Drafting is how we communicate our ideas. Being a CAD Monkey does not make you an architect. But if you don't know how to communicate your ideas, whose to say that you ever had any?
randomised
Mar 29, 19 4:35 pm
It's the ideas and thinking spatially that make someone an architect, not the drafting. You can totally communicate architectural ideas without drafting yourself and you know it, but keep digging that hole ;-)
BulgarBlogger
Mar 29, 19 4:47 pm
lol - yes, digging holes, for real, not just in theory, is part of what makes turning spatial ideas into reality so cool.
chigurh
Mar 29, 19 4:52 pm
when the next recession hits..being able to operate in all areas of production and/or management means that you will be one of the last on the chopping block...
curtkram
Mar 29, 19 6:38 pm
Projects are made successful in excel, not in sketchup
whistler
Mar 29, 19 7:55 pm
I am the principal / owner of a small firm 4-6 staff. I do all the preliminary CAD work up to completion of Design Development / DP. then typically pass it on to others. Then only occasional detail design / layout from there. In a small firm it gives me the design input I desire and stay on top of key design strategies and principles as we work with clients and contractors through to a point where CD can start. then I will work with Project architect / designer as they flush out the remainder of the package.
joseffischer
Mar 31, 19 2:41 pm
I get that small firms do things differently, but I thought that a benefit of working at small firms is that you got to touch a lot more of the process earlier in your career. I can't imagine feeling like a Project Architect and not really being part of the process until CDs. That screams cad monkey to me, but if your employees are happy in their roles, why rock the boat?
bowling_ball
Mar 31, 19 2:49 pm
This seems crazy to me. Your time is exponentially more valuable in getting work and maintaining relationships, not drafting.
curtkram
Mar 31, 19 3:07 pm
sounds like he's just doing what he enjoys and has a staff to support that end.
whistler
Mar 31, 19 8:49 pm
Jose, It's true that you get do more earlier in your career at a small firm, yes there's a lot of cad monkey work but early in your career you need to get experience on wood frame, passive house, steel and concrete you need a shit load of project "Cad Monkey" work to understand how to design, you don't start our designing well without knowing how to put a building together. But you also get to run the project once you take it over and deal with clients, contractors, clients, authorities having jurisdiction etc. That is unique to a small firm when you are only 2-3 years out of school. Wa-a-a-y better than just doing reflected ceiling plans.
Bowling, as a small firm client come to our office for me, my skills, how we manage a project and get projects executed... not for my staff. Therefore they want me to lead the project not hand it off to someone to wants to explore design ideas that aren't practical, functional or buildable ( typical of new staffers ). Advantage of having been doing this for 25-30 years more than most of my staff. I don't need to spend time finding work, we turn down more projects than we take on. Just because we are a small firm doesn't mean we are struggling, we are small by choice and successful because we know what we are good at work with repeat clients most of the time.
Curtkram, yes, thank you. You understand where we are at and what I have aimed to achieve.
bowling_ball
Apr 1, 19 1:34 am
Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. I've worked for small and medium sized firms, and your approach isn't one that I've experienced. All the best.
joseffischer
Apr 5, 19 5:16 pm
I had no doubt that you are enjoying yourself and that you're maintaining quality and profit... I just find it surprising that you retain staff for very long. Do your employees not wish to do their own work, or do you just replace employees every few years with the next graduate class?
The first firm I worked for was known for training people, and for burning through them. I thought it was a great place to cut my teeth and the owners there very much controlled every aspect of the process. No one stayed more than 3 years though. After working there, you had your pick of jobs in the city.
whistler
Apr 5, 19 5:38 pm
Jose, it's a small office so people naturally leave as the upward progression is limited, however they get involved in all aspects of the office less the accounting and janitorial work.... the fun stuff! There is a lot more to being a successful architect than just designing and if you think that's the important stuff I think you are poorly informed about what this profession is all about.... I think 1% inspiration 99% perspiration is the appropriate term.
whistler
Apr 5, 19 5:38 pm
Jose, it's a small office so people naturally leave as the upward progression is limited, however they get involved in all aspects of the office less the accounting and janitorial work.... the fun stuff! There is a lot more to being a successful architect than just designing and if you think that's the important stuff I think you are poorly informed about what this profession is all about.... I think 1% inspiration 99% perspiration is the appropriate term.
joseffischer
Apr 8, 19 9:03 am
I never implied what made a "successful architect" or that I thought that design was the only "important stuff". The way you've been coming across sounds like I don't see a set from you until CDs and that if I need to move a control joint, I better check with you first. Perhaps my first impression is off base, and for that I apologize. You did however, sort of answer my question; you find a revolving door of employees to be acceptable.
whistler
Apr 8, 19 12:21 pm
J, Projects are rarely a linear progression so staff get involved early in many cases as the basic massing is developed and get everyone's opinion and input ( landscape, materials, massing / 3D, texture etc ) However I am effectively managing that part of the process vs. me saying ..."here draw this up", work is way to involved to do that. As for staff ( 4-6 staff ) one associate has been here 17 years, one Technologist has been working on and off for 10 years, one Intern Arch. 3 years and another just hired 6 months. Before that average time for an intern arch. was about 4-5 years. Turn over is never great to deal with but we live in an expensive town, affordable housing is a challenge. We pay well and offer benefits to do our part to make it attractive. But it's tough for young families / couples to settle in, those that make it a priority ( i.e. my two long term employees ) have been with us a long time cause they have found a way to make it all work and see the long term value of being in the community and see it as the place they feel they want to live.
3tk
Apr 2, 19 12:06 pm
Yes - also boutique resi office. Do anything from sketches to rendering as needed to get project delivered on time and on budget. Delegate as much as possible, but there are moments when things just need a bit of in depth look and it helps to draw it out. Until you've drawn things a few times and seen it go in in the field, its hard to be confident that the drawing is drawn correctly and well (hence hard to manage the set).
Seen PMs who don't have experience and never bothered to learn any skill set (CAD/BIM/hand drawing/modelling) try to manage projects with disastrous results: copying bad details, telling subs its their responsibility, poor execution in the field, huge cost overruns, etc..
arch76
Apr 5, 19 10:43 pm
Yup- PM in a niche commercial office. I do my own drafting, sketchup, photoshop and revit, whenever I can. Gotta stay sharp, no?
bowling_ball
Apr 5, 19 10:55 pm
Your job is to stay sharp, however you define that. Personally and professionally, as a PM, I don't consider drafting as part of my job description.
bowling_ball
Apr 5, 19 10:57 pm
Don't get me wrong, drawing is important to learn early on, but as a PM, time spent drafting is time spent not managing.
arch76
Apr 6, 19 1:19 am
bowling_ball- To me, delivering projects efficiently is best management practice. I still draft my own replies to RFIs. Its just more effective than hand sketching a solution, pulling a drafter off of another project and catch them up on whats going on, and having them CAD draft an exhibit. I may have a shallow understanding of the prospects of being a PM...
arch76
Apr 6, 19 1:26 am
Also, as an Architect, convincing expression of a thought, by any and all means possible, is paramount. Some can pull that off with a fountain pen... the rest of us need a lap top.
joseffischer
Apr 8, 19 9:09 am
I've been turning in hand sketches a lot more when I can get away with it. None of the other CA guys like that I do that. Half of the CA guys don't "computer" if you know what I mean. Whatever conveys the solution to the contractor.
chigurh
Apr 7, 19 10:25 am
sounds like there are a lot of lazy middle managers out there which is a sign of fat times...What could you possibly be spending your time on all day (getting work and maintaining relationships) that would prevent you from also producing actual work (drafting, rendering, modeling, working drawings)....staying sharp is important...if you want to start your own practice someday knowing how to do it all is critical...nobody starts out with a full staff that can support a PM position...
bowling_ball
Apr 7, 19 12:27 pm
I don't think you'll find the CEO of Mc Donald's lending a hand at the deep fryer when during the lunch rush. The architecture industry is full of architects who've never taken a single minute of project management training.
chigurh
Apr 7, 19 8:57 pm
Most architecture firms can't be compared to giant corporations because they are small operations. Your stance on maintaining a disconnect from management to production only works in a few settings and produces a less cohesive product. The fewer people responsible for project delivery equals less mistakes. The last thing a small firm needs is a paper pushing manager that refuses to get their hands dirty with actual work.
bowling_ball
Apr 8, 19 12:22 am
I work on $30M+ projects almost exclusively, with just myself and a drafter for 95% of the work (the remainder divided between a principal and an interior designer). Tell me again how that's inefficient. We are only 24ish people.
joseffischer
Apr 8, 19 9:17 am
Question for B_b, if you're not drafting on most of your projects, how much of your work is spent redlining your sole drafter's work? Also, I guess you don't have PAs, just PMs and drafters? We're like 50 arch, 100 total (engineering in house) and every job in theory gets a principal, PM, and PA assigned, though the PA and PM are allowed to be the same person. I've not been a PM on a job with a PA, and I struggle on jobs that get drafting staff (typically around $50M+) with handling the emails/commitments vs managing the set itself (PA work, redlines) vs also modeling/creating my own sheets.
I guess, to clarify, if your implied "PMs shouldn't draft" is true, do you find that your drafters end up handling most of the set and you're just QCing? Our drafters (quite young) just aren't there yet.
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 8, 19 10:24 am
Are you guys saying you only work on one project at a time?
joseffischer
Apr 8, 19 11:59 am
I definitely only manage 1 project at a time, mostly because I'm new to project management. I CA my "PA" projects (which is rare here for some reason) and have 2-3 projects I'm "responsible" for, set wise. I also don't usually get involved until after SD unless I'm managing the project, and the projects I've managed until recently have always been minor without any Capital-D design work involved.
I keep imagining that a "true" PM job would be much like PMs in construction, your supers handle the site, and you handle management on 3-7 jobs with multiple supers working with you. That just doesn't seem to be the model that I or my friends seem to be following. Job search wise, firms seem to be looking for "PM"s who "do it all" as well. At least in my market, if you're a PM who doesn't know revit, you're not getting hired. Now, once hired, how much revit do you need to know and how often are you "in the model" I guess is the big question I'm trying to understand.
chigurh
Apr 8, 19 2:23 pm
this is BB
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 7, 19 8:59 pm
I'm drafting on Sunday so I can slack off tomorrow.
curtkram
Apr 8, 19 7:02 pm
what does a PM do to fill their day if not drafting? They seem to like sitting in meetings. They should probably be setting schedules and agendas. Older PMs seem to enjoy scribbling out of scale ideas on trace paper, but not necessarily stuff that will be part of the project.
Do you see PMs actually redlining, like with red pencils or markers? If you have junior staff that needs to learn how to draw a detail or something in revit, are you really ok with not knowing how to do that? If you're developing a project schedule, shouldn't you have a pretty good idea of what your staff are doing?
randomised
Apr 9, 19 5:07 am
There's so much more a PM can do, browse archinect for example.
Non Sequitur
Apr 9, 19 7:27 am
Hey, I max out my continuing education requirements using archinect.
Hiya,
Licensed architect with 10 years exp at “senior pm” level in boutique resi firm.
Should I be ashamed that I can barely draft anymore and only redline?! I had to do a bunch of my own drafting lately and I feel like an intern...
Am I alone here and need to brush up or is this normal for anyone else?
Thanks for your feedback!
Yes, I do my own drafting. I have a pencil box of 2H pencils and an electric eraser @!
I've just hit PM level myself. As a PA, I ultimately touched most of every sheet. My last 3 projects still involved me sitting down with the entire set and redlining everything and then picking up my own redlines (all Revit btw) before I let it out the door. Now as a PM, I'm not supposed to do that anymore... and honestly, it's been a bit rocky. We're supposed to use Bluebeam and more often than not I feel like I could make the corrections on the sheet in the model more quickly. I try to chalk it up to "learning experience" for the team, especially those still working on their IDP/AXP hours... but more often than not, I get blank stares or arguments about how "that's not how I did it last time" from my team.
I'd love to hear from some other PMs how they balance this.
PA here, moving soon to PM. I do all my own drafting and red-lines on my project and occasionally red-line for others. We just don't have enough quality (ie. reliable) drafting team.
NS, if you're going to be leading people, you need to trust them. Don't think 'how do I make this project successful.' every morning you wake up, think 'how do I make this person successful.' if they're successful, then you're successful and you're project is successful. Keep in mind they haven't been through what you've been through yet, and they don't have the experience you have yet.
Curt, it's not specifically that I don't trust them... we just don't have many (available to me). I only have one at this time and this person is very junior and is not ready to draft without significant supervision. I agree with your point tho.
It varies from firm to firm and person to person. Once when I was interviewing for a senior PM position I was criticized by an interviewer who was incredulous that I was still doing a lot of my own drafting/BIM in my PM position in a small firm. It was clear that he interpreted that to mean that I didn't know how to delegate well, or was a control freak. In his firm no self-respecting PM would squander their time on tasks that someone less experienced could do. But the firm I was coming from had the philosophy that continuity on the project resulted in a better end product than assigning all less-skill-demanding work to others.
I would argue that any firm that has PMs or even PAs drafting has some organizational issues. First, unless you are drafting regularly, you are not going to be as efficient as someone who is drafting everyday. Second, there's too much work to do on a project to have senior-level staff drafting, even at small firms. Third, it's not fair to clients to have senior staff doing drafting work at their higher billable rates. All that being said, I do think that PMs/PAs need to keep their technical skills fresh to the point that they understand how production actually works, even if they are not doing it themselves.
Interesting third point, given that when working at the PA level, I could put together a set at least half as fast as if I only redlined the drawings and had junior staff put together the set, and at $125/hr, my time would actually save money compared to $90/hr times twice as many hours + my $125/hr oversight time
don't just think of the project you're working on, think of the next project
Many years ago, I was the "CAD ace" working for senior people who still thought in pencil. Now I'm the senior guy who still thinks in CAD, working with "drafters" who are using Revit. I actually have taken a couple Revit classes, so I can at least grasp what's going on, but I could no more turn out a project in Revit than flap my arms and fly.
Ok thank you all for the feedback. I don’t feel bad that I can barely draft anymore!
Agreed, this was great feedback
I find that doing both design/leading and drafting doesn't work. When I focus on one or the other and have others to help, it works a lot better. Otherwise I get caught in a vortex of conflicting values.
^ this. it's difficult to develop a project vision when you also have to figure out how to document it. one side of your brain trying to generate ideas; the other side trying to minimize them.
I kind of equate this to the difference between an office and belt on gc
I stopped drafting CD sets 2 years after graduation. I'll still occasionally sketch out a site plan in CAD to hand off to a drafting tech, but that's been it for the last 6 years.
As others have said, if you're that far into your career and still drafting, you're either overpaid for that, or underpaid for what you should really be doing (managing projects).
I'll leave the drafting to the bartender.
I draft, design and PM. Small, what I consider to be be one person jobs. For me having the experience allows me to draft as I design. I can draft/design faster than the drafters with less experience because I am making better decision as I draft. The PM portion just makes it more interesting and give me more experience to make better decision the next time. Small projects is the key for me.
Fascinating discussion here.
I split my time between PA and PM yet do more than 90% of the drafting as well as the CA parts. I certainly agree that my time could be better spent dealing with site issues, shop drawings, client correspondence, etc... but we simply don't have that type of office structure or drafting staff. What I have found is that my commercial clients prefer to deal directly with the PA who can also act quickly without needing to go ask others to make changes. Our engineering consultants are notorious for this and it angers many clients.
I'm looking to transition more to PM in the near future and since I'm by far the most advanced Revit user, I'm building up our standards to control as much of the drafting process as possible.
There is a real business reason for senior staff not doing drafting. It's proprac 101 and goes back to the concept of leverage. In order to increase profitability, you leverage the work of your more efficient, less expensive junior staff. The staffing model is built like a pyramid with a greater number of junior staff (drafters) at the bottom with a smaller number of owners/partners at the top. The model works for both large and small offices. This link explains the concept pretty well: Leverage Model in Professional Services.
It took me a little less than two years to get to a position where I wasn’t doing production drafting. I still redline drawings and sketch out ideas for others to draft, but I don’t do it myself for many of the same reason outlined by others. I don’t even have Revit installed on my machine. At first i missed it a little bit, but now I wouldn’t want to go back. I’ve found better ways to distinguish myself than being a faster draftsperson.
I'm rolling up on the 10 year mark. Licensed, but not stamping anything. On some projects I'm the PA/semi-PM. Others, I'm the PA. Others, I'm the design/drafting entity. It all depends on who in my office has the project. Plenty of people outrank me. If it's their project, then I'm doing the more menial tasks. If all of our drafting/design staff is occupied, then I'm still the guy.
In the end, it's better to take the most cost effective route. But, it's also good to be able to meet deadlines. If you're in a schedule crunch, it's nice to be able to sit down and crank out drawings. I find its especially helpful to draft during those crunch times because I get it done without having someone else draft, me redline, and them redraft.
It's been a hard transition for me taking on the PA/PM role. My first big project, I was told to trust in the drafting staff. I probably should have involved myself a bit more, because there were a lot of things done that I would have done very differently. Sometimes a decision by a drafter can have implications through the entire project (like what level they model something on). It might not show up until it's way too late and a lot of things are wonky.
are.... are we the same person? It's like looking into a mirror.
The OP is such a Primadonna- get over yourself. Yes- drafting is what makes you an architect.
No, it makes you a drafter.
Drafting/Drawing- same thing.
Drafting is not what makes you an architect. Carry on
Completely disagree.
Oh; apologies. Thinking about SPACE without knowing anything about anything else is what being an architect is about. Drawing/Drafting is how we communicate our ideas. Being a CAD Monkey does not make you an architect. But if you don't know how to communicate your ideas, whose to say that you ever had any?
It's the ideas and thinking spatially that make someone an architect, not the drafting. You can totally communicate architectural ideas without drafting yourself and you know it, but keep digging that hole ;-)
lol - yes, digging holes, for real, not just in theory, is part of what makes turning spatial ideas into reality so cool.
when the next recession hits..being able to operate in all areas of production and/or management means that you will be one of the last on the chopping block...
Projects are made successful in excel, not in sketchup
I am the principal / owner of a small firm 4-6 staff. I do all the preliminary CAD work up to completion of Design Development / DP. then typically pass it on to others. Then only occasional detail design / layout from there. In a small firm it gives me the design input I desire and stay on top of key design strategies and principles as we work with clients and contractors through to a point where CD can start. then I will work with Project architect / designer as they flush out the remainder of the package.
I get that small firms do things differently, but I thought that a benefit of working at small firms is that you got to touch a lot more of the process earlier in your career. I can't imagine feeling like a Project Architect and not really being part of the process until CDs. That screams cad monkey to me, but if your employees are happy in their roles, why rock the boat?
This seems crazy to me. Your time is exponentially more valuable in getting work and maintaining relationships, not drafting.
sounds like he's just doing what he enjoys and has a staff to support that end.
Jose, It's true that you get do more earlier in your career at a small firm, yes there's a lot of cad monkey work but early in your career you need to get experience on wood frame, passive house, steel and concrete you need a shit load of project "Cad Monkey" work to understand how to design, you don't start our designing well without knowing how to put a building together. But you also get to run the project once you take it over and deal with clients, contractors, clients, authorities having jurisdiction etc. That is unique to a small firm when you are only 2-3 years out of school. Wa-a-a-y better than just doing reflected ceiling plans.
Bowling, as a small firm client come to our office for me, my skills, how we manage a project and get projects executed... not for my staff. Therefore they want me to lead the project not hand it off to someone to wants to explore design ideas that aren't practical, functional or buildable ( typical of new staffers ). Advantage of having been doing this for 25-30 years more than most of my staff. I don't need to spend time finding work, we turn down more projects than we take on. Just because we are a small firm doesn't mean we are struggling, we are small by choice and successful because we know what we are good at work with repeat clients most of the time.
Curtkram, yes, thank you. You understand where we are at and what I have aimed to achieve.
Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. I've worked for small and medium sized firms, and your approach isn't one that I've experienced. All the best.
I had no doubt that you are enjoying yourself and that you're maintaining quality and profit... I just find it surprising that you retain staff for very long. Do your employees not wish to do their own work, or do you just replace employees every few years with the next graduate class?
The first firm I worked for was known for training people, and for burning through them. I thought it was a great place to cut my teeth and the owners there very much controlled every aspect of the process. No one stayed more than 3 years though. After working there, you had your pick of jobs in the city.
Jose, it's a small office so people naturally leave as the upward progression is limited, however they get involved in all aspects of the office less the accounting and janitorial work.... the fun stuff! There is a lot more to being a successful architect than just designing and if you think that's the important stuff I think you are poorly informed about what this profession is all about.... I think 1% inspiration 99% perspiration is the appropriate term.
Jose, it's a small office so people naturally leave as the upward progression is limited, however they get involved in all aspects of the office less the accounting and janitorial work.... the fun stuff! There is a lot more to being a successful architect than just designing and if you think that's the important stuff I think you are poorly informed about what this profession is all about.... I think 1% inspiration 99% perspiration is the appropriate term.
I never implied what made a "successful architect" or that I thought that design was the only "important stuff". The way you've been coming across sounds like I don't see a set from you until CDs and that if I need to move a control joint, I better check with you first. Perhaps my first impression is off base, and for that I apologize. You did however, sort of answer my question; you find a revolving door of employees to be acceptable.
J, Projects are rarely a linear progression so staff get involved early in many cases as the basic massing is developed and get everyone's opinion and input ( landscape, materials, massing / 3D, texture etc ) However I am effectively managing that part of the process vs. me saying ..."here draw this up", work is way to involved to do that. As for staff ( 4-6 staff ) one associate has been here 17 years, one Technologist has been working on and off for 10 years, one Intern Arch. 3 years and another just hired 6 months. Before that average time for an intern arch. was about 4-5 years. Turn over is never great to deal with but we live in an expensive town, affordable housing is a challenge. We pay well and offer benefits to do our part to make it attractive. But it's tough for young families / couples to settle in, those that make it a priority ( i.e. my two long term employees ) have been with us a long time cause they have found a way to make it all work and see the long term value of being in the community and see it as the place they feel they want to live.
Yes - also boutique resi office. Do anything from sketches to rendering as needed to get project delivered on time and on budget. Delegate as much as possible, but there are moments when things just need a bit of in depth look and it helps to draw it out. Until you've drawn things a few times and seen it go in in the field, its hard to be confident that the drawing is drawn correctly and well (hence hard to manage the set).
Seen PMs who don't have experience and never bothered to learn any skill set (CAD/BIM/hand drawing/modelling) try to manage projects with disastrous results: copying bad details, telling subs its their responsibility, poor execution in the field, huge cost overruns, etc..
Yup- PM in a niche commercial office. I do my own drafting, sketchup, photoshop and revit, whenever I can. Gotta stay sharp, no?
Your job is to stay sharp, however you define that. Personally and professionally, as a PM, I don't consider drafting as part of my job description.
Don't get me wrong, drawing is important to learn early on, but as a PM, time spent drafting is time spent not managing.
bowling_ball- To me, delivering projects efficiently is best management practice. I still draft my own replies to RFIs. Its just more effective than hand sketching a solution, pulling a drafter off of another project and catch them up on whats going on, and having them CAD draft an exhibit. I may have a shallow understanding of the prospects of being a PM...
Also, as an Architect, convincing expression of a thought, by any and all means possible, is paramount. Some can pull that off with a fountain pen... the rest of us need a lap top.
I've been turning in hand sketches a lot more when I can get away with it. None of the other CA guys like that I do that. Half of the CA guys don't "computer" if you know what I mean. Whatever conveys the solution to the contractor.
sounds like there are a lot of lazy middle managers out there which is a sign of fat times...What could you possibly be spending your time on all day (getting work and maintaining relationships) that would prevent you from also producing actual work (drafting, rendering, modeling, working drawings)....staying sharp is important...if you want to start your own practice someday knowing how to do it all is critical...nobody starts out with a full staff that can support a PM position...
I don't think you'll find the CEO of Mc Donald's lending a hand at the deep fryer when during the lunch rush. The architecture industry is full of architects who've never taken a single minute of project management training.
Most architecture firms can't be compared to giant corporations because they are small operations. Your stance on maintaining a disconnect from management to production only works in a few settings and produces a less cohesive product. The fewer people responsible for project delivery equals less mistakes. The last thing a small firm needs is a paper pushing manager that refuses to get their hands dirty with actual work.
I work on $30M+ projects almost exclusively, with just myself and a drafter for 95% of the work (the remainder divided between a principal and an interior designer). Tell me again how that's inefficient. We are only 24ish people.
Question for B_b, if you're not drafting on most of your projects, how much of your work is spent redlining your sole drafter's work? Also, I guess you don't have PAs, just PMs and drafters? We're like 50 arch, 100 total (engineering in house) and every job in theory gets a principal, PM, and PA assigned, though the PA and PM are allowed to be the same person. I've not been a PM on a job with a PA, and I struggle on jobs that get drafting staff (typically around $50M+) with handling the emails/commitments vs managing the set itself (PA work, redlines) vs also modeling/creating my own sheets.
I guess, to clarify, if your implied "PMs shouldn't draft" is true, do you find that your drafters end up handling most of the set and you're just QCing? Our drafters (quite young) just aren't there yet.
Are you guys saying you only work on one project at a time?
I definitely only manage 1 project at a time, mostly because I'm new to project management. I CA my "PA" projects (which is rare here for some reason) and have 2-3 projects I'm "responsible" for, set wise. I also don't usually get involved until after SD unless I'm managing the project, and the projects I've managed until recently have always been minor without any Capital-D design work involved.
I keep imagining that a "true" PM job would be much like PMs in construction, your supers handle the site, and you handle management on 3-7 jobs with multiple supers working with you. That just doesn't seem to be the model that I or my friends seem to be following. Job search wise, firms seem to be looking for "PM"s who "do it all" as well. At least in my market, if you're a PM who doesn't know revit, you're not getting hired. Now, once hired, how much revit do you need to know and how often are you "in the model" I guess is the big question I'm trying to understand.
this is BB
I'm drafting on Sunday so I can slack off tomorrow.
what does a PM do to fill their day if not drafting? They seem to like sitting in meetings. They should probably be setting schedules and agendas. Older PMs seem to enjoy scribbling out of scale ideas on trace paper, but not necessarily stuff that will be part of the project.
Do you see PMs actually redlining, like with red pencils or markers? If you have junior staff that needs to learn how to draw a detail or something in revit, are you really ok with not knowing how to do that? If you're developing a project schedule, shouldn't you have a pretty good idea of what your staff are doing?
There's so much more a PM can do, browse archinect for example.
Hey, I max out my continuing education requirements using archinect.