We had our fair share of overly ambitious people at school but they were the exception and not the rule. What surprises me is that I run into former classmates every now and then and it seems that working in the real world has taken its toll on them. Some sound bitter and resentful during what seems to be a good time to be an architect and they definitely didn't sound like that when I met them back in the school years. I think we have all worked with some difficult people but I can't imagine they were always like that. At what stage do you think that architects develop these personality traits?
Have you ever though that working in this profession has altered your personality in a negative way? Don't get me wrong, we all are products of our environment and this is a tough industry with numerous toxic people.
zonker
Jul 22, 18 7:39 pm
" like a dog that's been beat too much"
OneLostArchitect
Jul 24, 18 12:15 pm
Beautiful. Love it.
Matthew Proctor
Jul 22, 18 7:48 pm
Especially First and the Last of Americans, the American men were murdered for blood sport by the Europeans, followed by the rest of the world; namely French-American wars, Spanish-American wars, Mexican-American wars, Korean-American War, and Japanese-American war [Pearl Harbor]; with exception to The Vietnam war. Think about dog soldiers beaten around the bush, where were these Gods? For American landscapes whose lands did these soil belong to? I still exist as one of the last American soldier before the 1776 U.S. Calvary.
Non Sequitur
Jul 22, 18 7:55 pm
Cool story bro, but thanksgiving is not for several more months.
curtkram
Jul 22, 18 8:22 pm
maybe he's just illustrating what made him bitter. he seems to suggest he was a soldier in the cavalry in 1776. posting here 241 years later. i wonder how long his path to licensure is?
joseffischer
Jul 23, 18 8:58 am
It should only be another year, he lost so many hours in that conversion and the 6 month rule, and he lost a couple tests when they went to ARE 5.0.
citizen
Jul 22, 18 7:54 pm
Is this in comparison to the point when lawyers become bitter and mean? Or surgeons? Engineers? Plumbers? Waiters? HR managers?
Non Sequitur
Jul 22, 18 7:59 pm
The only colleagues I've seen turn bitter where those who refused to come to terms with reality aka those expected to be given a red carpet treatment in their first office and those expecting to cure cancer with their "unique" design chops. They are the disgruntled and bitter group. The intelligent and realistic folks are doing just fine.
Peter Normand
Jul 27, 18 11:53 am
Non Sequitur, that is spot on, I was going to simplify it and say when they finally had someone tell them "No" . I guess it depends on the schools people are coming from. Some schools don't prepare folks for the world full of people and clients who are not architects as well as they could.
file
Jul 22, 18 9:00 pm
RB-A: "no one wants or likes architects"
When this is where you start, there's nothing appreciably worthwhile in the remaining part of your post, making it essentially not worth reading. By buying in to the OP's basic premise you support an unsupportable position.
In my experience it simply is not even remotely true that the broad spectrum of architects are "bitter", "mean", "unwanted" or "unliked" (*). I know many architects who are a) in demand; b) well liked by their clients and by contractors; and c) happy as they pursue successful careers.
(*) however, those characteristics may be descriptive of some who post here on Archinect.
eeayeeayo
Jul 23, 18 10:53 am
… and “doctor” originally meant teacher, “designer” originally meant someone who chalked patterns, in the 1800s "programmer" meant someone who planned events and later someone who planned radio content (you're always calling yourself a programmer, but how many weddings have you planned, and how much radio content are you responsible for? By your logic you're not a "true programmer" without those on your resume), and barbers originally performed dentistry and minor surgery in addition to cutting hair - would you like to see "true barbers" still doing that? Language and professions evolve. None of these words mean the same thing now as they did hundreds or thousands of years ago. Maybe you’d be less bitter working in a historic reenactment. Colonial Williamsburg might need a cooper, collier, or chandler.
eeayeeayo
Jul 23, 18 5:04 pm
...and "coder" originally, in the 1300s when it came into use, was one who stitched together quires of manuscript pages. So if you're a "true coder" let's see those sewing skills Ricky.
This forum needs a trigger to block someone from replying to themselves more than twice.
Bloopox
Jul 24, 18 2:46 pm
I've had him on ignore since last year, and it makes the threads sort of funny - there are all these little lists of "RickB is ignored by you" 8 or 10 times in a row so I can see he's having a grand old time talking to himself, but it never seems to affect the flow or meaning of the rest of the thread - it's like everybody else is talking over him and he's 100% unnecessary. He's like glitter, or tinsel - really aggravating when you can see it all over the place, and it gets everywhere you don't want it - but it serves no practical purpose, and when you don't have it you never miss it.
Matthew Proctor
Jul 22, 18 9:38 pm
That may mean American Architects by heritage which these buildings were discarded by the new government by these worldly influences.
Wilma Buttfit
Jul 22, 18 10:35 pm
Did you ask them when you ran into them? Some of my former classmates are a little mean and bitter and I think it is from working too hard and not taking care of themselves.
Steeplechase
Jul 23, 18 12:03 am
Clearly I'm not working in the right places. My colleagues have all been rather pleasant folks.
heeroyui
Jul 23, 18 12:25 am
they are mean and bitter because there profession failed them. Whats sad is that they dont even realize it.
randomised
Jul 23, 18 3:52 am
I never worked with bitter or mean people I think.
Wilma Buttfit
Jul 23, 18 9:30 am
well good for you Europeans then. americans yell at work. a lot.
Wilma Buttfit
Jul 23, 18 10:44 am
we also have lawyers
randomised
Jul 23, 18 10:59 am
There are people here too that are mean and bitter but I prefer not to work with them.
joseffischer
Jul 23, 18 9:03 am
I've been told I have a curmudgeon old man soul since around 12-15. I've got college friends and neighbors who (mostly lovingly) have nicknamed me Grandpa. Architecture didn't do this to me, but maybe something about architecture attracted my geezer spirit. It must be all the submittals, I really like reviewing submittals.
Volunteer
Jul 23, 18 9:18 am
When they realize their buddy who dropped out of high school has a construction firm that has an impeccable reputation and who is worth millions.
Wilma Buttfit
Jul 24, 18 7:08 am
A lot of contractors who make money do it by screwing people over. Nothing to be proud of.
Volunteer
Jul 24, 18 7:52 am
Where is it written that architects are more ethical than contractors? When the MIT Center developed massive problems the first thing Gehry did was blame the contractor for his half-assed design. Ethics anyone?
Wilma Buttfit
Jul 24, 18 7:54 am
Frank's is a celebrity, not an architect.
Wilma Buttfit
Jul 24, 18 8:22 am
Maybe architects are bitter because our 'leaders' aren't leaders at all. People think architects are dopes because of FOG and the like.
Wilma Buttfit
Jul 24, 18 8:24 am
It's a lot of work to overcome the architect as artist (who cares about leaks! Not us!) ideal that our leaders propogate.
geezertect
Jul 25, 18 8:20 am
tintt: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JLC-1
Jul 23, 18 10:35 am
born this way
Donna Sink
Jul 23, 18 12:27 pm
Since Nov 8 2016 every thinking person I know, regardless of profession, has seen their bitter-and-meanness levels rise.
Serious jokes aside, architecture *is* a hard profession, and the rewards are not monetary. I still love it. Nothing I’d rather do/be.
Doobie doobie doo.
zonker
Jul 23, 18 12:33 pm
Donna - so true. When your so called leader, er Fuher is bitter and mean, then it trickles down to the work places -
randomised
Jul 24, 18 3:39 am
So what that you have a bully for president, that doesn't excuse anyone to be bitter and mean to other people, simply keep calling them out! And by the way, you were already whining and complaining here when Obama was commander in chief.
zonker
Jul 23, 18 12:41 pm
Many project architects with 30 or more years experience are losing their patience with the younger "BIM WITS" and can get really p'oed at us - there is this unreasonable impatience level that has become worse in the last year - a bitterness? or failed expectations?
I'm not a robot
Jul 24, 18 12:08 am
Let's see... move an interior partition 6 inches? oops - I just deleted half the associated dimensions on sheets I'm not even working on and my curtain wall disappeared. it'll only take a day to figure it out.
randomised
Jul 24, 18 3:41 am
No wonder people get bitter when they are still just a project architect after 30 years on the job, that's the level most people reach within 5 years of graduation.
mightyaa
Jul 23, 18 2:48 pm
By the time you are in your middle ages (30-45), you’ll come to understand you can’t live up to your own ideal of your youthful dreams of what your life will be like. Somewhere, something is going to give, and you’ll have to come to terms with the reality of what your life became.
Depending on your daily outlook and how well you are dealing with ‘what is’, you’ll be emotional flakey. So sometimes, I envy the new interns and their starry eyed dreams… Other times it pisses me off because I know they’re gonna get wrecked and I can see it coming. I know that instead of designing these ‘architectural statements’, they’ll be designing a few gas stations and car washes and also getting pissed off because landscape regulations were written by some other youthful dreamer who envisioned a botanical garden grade urban park should be what society wants (but didn’t account for the realities of pull-in, drive-out, turn radius’s, and all the pavement it takes to simply have building like that function).
By your middle-ages, you'll see stupid people everywhere and it takes a toll on your outlook and perspectives. And in our highly regulated, slow as shit (3 years average project length), dealing with hundreds of folks looking at your work, you'll see dumb most everywhere with the occasional unicorns to give you hope again.
thatsthat
Jul 23, 18 3:13 pm
+++mighty. I turned 30 earlier this year, and I've already been turned into a skeptic. In the years I've been doing this job, I've realized that so much of the job is telling other people how to do their jobs. You need to be skeptical of others in order to make sure others (contractors and consultants both) stay on schedule, on budget, and don't try to pull the wool over your eyes by promising one thing and delivering something else. Of course, there are excellent contractors out there - those are the true unicorns IMO.
geezertect
Jul 25, 18 1:02 pm
mightyaa: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Miles Jaffe
Jul 23, 18 7:15 pm
At what point in their life do architects become bitter and mean?
After reading too many forum posts by whiny bitches complaining about the profession.
randomised
Jul 24, 18 3:42 am
Are there any forums similar to archinect for artists actually, and if so, how's the atmosphere?
Miles Jaffe
Jul 24, 18 8:18 am
I wonder what Ricky posts there. But not enough to go look.
JLC-1
Jul 24, 18 11:00 am
looks like the 5th ring of hell in there
Miles Jaffe
Jul 24, 18 2:52 pm
@random - Art is no worse than architecture. Some overentitled asshole offered 2/3 for a piece today. My response: if you can't afford it you should buy something cheaper.
Shaw
Jul 24, 18 5:55 pm
Miles, tell me it aint so: the ultra-rich in your locale try to do to you what the ultra-rich in our region try to do to artists? It would seem that becoming wealthy would mean a 'lessening' of that sort of thing, or at least, some element of 'habitus' (education, sophistication, culture & societal respectability).
I suppose, though, if J. Paul Getty made someone pay for their own typewriter at Standard Oil..........
randomised
Jul 25, 18 3:21 am
Overentitled assholes are the worst, and it's not that they can't afford to pay the regular price, they feel they deserve a deal.
geezertect
Jul 25, 18 1:07 pm
Too many of them got rich by screwing everyone in sight. Why would they suddenly change the m.o. that got them where they are?
Shaw
Jul 24, 18 9:43 am
.....when you are hired in a large firm for wages that bagboys at the supermarket can top, until they pay you what the bagboys make
......when work your heart out for your employer, and at the end of the year they give you a 0.25 cent raise
......when your employer lies about you to the other partners so he can cover himself from pro-bono work that he promised, saying that it was your project to work on after-hours
......when you get on your own, and begin working, and you get a bad client or two who threaten to sue when you truly were not at fault
.......when clients stiff you for payment (delay payment)
.......when clients don't pay you at all (non-payment)
........when contractors take credit for your design as their own
........when the Interior Decorator becomes involved in your project - that's when everyone else loses...........
........when people string you along for free advice, holding out an invisible carrot of a potential project
........when the City lies to you about promised work, and then gives it to a boutique bigbigbucks firm from the sixth borough of New York
........when clients quote HGTV and THIS OLD HOUSE to see if you knew about the latest gizmos and practices......'thought you knew this'?
........and much much more!
Note to Miles - don't worry, wont go on Ad Nauseum about this..........!
All - ask me how many T-Shirts I have now!
Le Courvoisier
Jul 25, 18 2:11 pm
I was 6 when I became bitter and mean, so you know...Architecture was the perfect profession for me.
We had our fair share of overly ambitious people at school but they were the exception and not the rule. What surprises me is that I run into former classmates every now and then and it seems that working in the real world has taken its toll on them. Some sound bitter and resentful during what seems to be a good time to be an architect and they definitely didn't sound like that when I met them back in the school years. I think we have all worked with some difficult people but I can't imagine they were always like that. At what stage do you think that architects develop these personality traits?
Have you ever though that working in this profession has altered your personality in a negative way? Don't get me wrong, we all are products of our environment and this is a tough industry with numerous toxic people.
" like a dog that's been beat too much"
Beautiful. Love it.
Especially First and the Last of Americans, the American men were murdered for blood sport by the Europeans, followed by the rest of the world; namely French-American wars, Spanish-American wars, Mexican-American wars, Korean-American War, and Japanese-American war [Pearl Harbor]; with exception to The Vietnam war. Think about dog soldiers beaten around the bush, where were these Gods? For American landscapes whose lands did these soil belong to? I still exist as one of the last American soldier before the 1776 U.S. Calvary.
Cool story bro, but thanksgiving is not for several more months.
maybe he's just illustrating what made him bitter. he seems to suggest he was a soldier in the cavalry in 1776. posting here 241 years later. i wonder how long his path to licensure is?
It should only be another year, he lost so many hours in that conversion and the 6 month rule, and he lost a couple tests when they went to ARE 5.0.
Is this in comparison to the point when lawyers become bitter and mean? Or surgeons? Engineers? Plumbers? Waiters? HR managers?
The only colleagues I've seen turn bitter where those who refused to come to terms with reality aka those expected to be given a red carpet treatment in their first office and those expecting to cure cancer with their "unique" design chops. They are the disgruntled and bitter group. The intelligent and realistic folks are doing just fine.
Non Sequitur, that is spot on, I was going to simplify it and say when they finally had someone tell them "No" . I guess it depends on the schools people are coming from. Some schools don't prepare folks for the world full of people and clients who are not architects as well as they could.
RB-A: "no one wants or likes architects"
When this is where you start, there's nothing appreciably worthwhile in the remaining part of your post, making it essentially not worth reading. By buying in to the OP's basic premise you support an unsupportable position.
In my experience it simply is not even remotely true that the broad spectrum of architects are "bitter", "mean", "unwanted" or "unliked" (*). I know many architects who are a) in demand; b) well liked by their clients and by contractors; and c) happy as they pursue successful careers.
(*) however, those characteristics may be descriptive of some who post here on Archinect.
… and “doctor” originally meant teacher, “designer” originally meant someone who chalked patterns, in the 1800s "programmer" meant someone who planned events and later someone who planned radio content (you're always calling yourself a programmer, but how many weddings have you planned, and how much radio content are you responsible for? By your logic you're not a "true programmer" without those on your resume), and barbers originally performed dentistry and minor surgery in addition to cutting hair - would you like to see "true barbers" still doing that? Language and professions evolve. None of these words mean the same thing now as they did hundreds or thousands of years ago. Maybe you’d be less bitter working in a historic reenactment. Colonial Williamsburg might need a cooper, collier, or chandler.
...and "coder" originally, in the 1300s when it came into use, was one who stitched together quires of manuscript pages. So if you're a "true coder" let's see those sewing skills Ricky.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman
This forum needs a trigger to block someone from replying to themselves more than twice.
I've had him on ignore since last year, and it makes the threads sort of funny - there are all these little lists of "RickB is ignored by you" 8 or 10 times in a row so I can see he's having a grand old time talking to himself, but it never seems to affect the flow or meaning of the rest of the thread - it's like everybody else is talking over him and he's 100% unnecessary. He's like glitter, or tinsel - really aggravating when you can see it all over the place, and it gets everywhere you don't want it - but it serves no practical purpose, and when you don't have it you never miss it.
That may mean American Architects by heritage which these buildings were discarded by the new government by these worldly influences.
Did you ask them when you ran into them? Some of my former classmates are a little mean and bitter and I think it is from working too hard and not taking care of themselves.
Clearly I'm not working in the right places. My colleagues have all been rather pleasant folks.
they are mean and bitter because there profession failed them. Whats sad is that they dont even realize it.
I never worked with bitter or mean people I think.
well good for you Europeans then. americans yell at work. a lot.
we also have lawyers
There are people here too that are mean and bitter but I prefer not to work with them.
I've been told I have a curmudgeon old man soul since around 12-15. I've got college friends and neighbors who (mostly lovingly) have nicknamed me Grandpa. Architecture didn't do this to me, but maybe something about architecture attracted my geezer spirit. It must be all the submittals, I really like reviewing submittals.
When they realize their buddy who dropped out of high school has a construction firm that has an impeccable reputation and who is worth millions.
A lot of contractors who make money do it by screwing people over. Nothing to be proud of.
Where is it written that architects are more ethical than contractors? When the MIT Center developed massive problems the first thing Gehry did was blame the contractor for his half-assed design. Ethics anyone?
Frank's is a celebrity, not an architect.
Maybe architects are bitter because our 'leaders' aren't leaders at all. People think architects are dopes because of FOG and the like.
It's a lot of work to overcome the architect as artist (who cares about leaks! Not us!) ideal that our leaders propogate.
tintt: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
born this way
Since Nov 8 2016 every thinking person I know, regardless of profession, has seen their bitter-and-meanness levels rise.
Serious jokes aside, architecture *is* a hard profession, and the rewards are not monetary. I still love it. Nothing I’d rather do/be.
Doobie doobie doo.
Donna - so true. When your so called leader, er Fuher is bitter and mean, then it trickles down to the work places -
So what that you have a bully for president, that doesn't excuse anyone to be bitter and mean to other people, simply keep calling them out! And by the way, you were already whining and complaining here when Obama was commander in chief.
Many project architects with 30 or more years experience are losing their patience with the younger "BIM WITS" and can get really p'oed at us - there is this unreasonable impatience level that has become worse in the last year - a bitterness? or failed expectations?
Let's see... move an interior partition 6 inches? oops - I just deleted half the associated dimensions on sheets I'm not even working on and my curtain wall disappeared. it'll only take a day to figure it out.
No wonder people get bitter when they are still just a project architect after 30 years on the job, that's the level most people reach within 5 years of graduation.
By the time you are in your middle ages (30-45), you’ll come to understand you can’t live up to your own ideal of your youthful dreams of what your life will be like. Somewhere, something is going to give, and you’ll have to come to terms with the reality of what your life became.
Depending on your daily outlook and how well you are dealing with ‘what is’, you’ll be emotional flakey. So sometimes, I envy the new interns and their starry eyed dreams… Other times it pisses me off because I know they’re gonna get wrecked and I can see it coming. I know that instead of designing these ‘architectural statements’, they’ll be designing a few gas stations and car washes and also getting pissed off because landscape regulations were written by some other youthful dreamer who envisioned a botanical garden grade urban park should be what society wants (but didn’t account for the realities of pull-in, drive-out, turn radius’s, and all the pavement it takes to simply have building like that function).
By your middle-ages, you'll see stupid people everywhere and it takes a toll on your outlook and perspectives. And in our highly regulated, slow as shit (3 years average project length), dealing with hundreds of folks looking at your work, you'll see dumb most everywhere with the occasional unicorns to give you hope again.
+++mighty. I turned 30 earlier this year, and I've already been turned into a skeptic. In the years I've been doing this job, I've realized that so much of the job is telling other people how to do their jobs. You need to be skeptical of others in order to make sure others (contractors and consultants both) stay on schedule, on budget, and don't try to pull the wool over your eyes by promising one thing and delivering something else. Of course, there are excellent contractors out there - those are the true unicorns IMO.
mightyaa: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
At what point in their life do architects become bitter and mean?
After reading too many forum posts by whiny bitches complaining about the profession.
Are there any forums similar to archinect for artists actually, and if so, how's the atmosphere?
I wonder what Ricky posts there. But not enough to go look.
looks like the 5th ring of hell in there
@random - Art is no worse than architecture. Some overentitled asshole offered 2/3 for a piece today. My response: if you can't afford it you should buy something cheaper.
Miles, tell me it aint so: the ultra-rich in your locale try to do to you what the ultra-rich in our region try to do to artists? It would seem that becoming wealthy would mean a 'lessening' of that sort of thing, or at least, some element of 'habitus' (education, sophistication, culture & societal respectability). I suppose, though, if J. Paul Getty made someone pay for their own typewriter at Standard Oil..........
Overentitled assholes are the worst, and it's not that they can't afford to pay the regular price, they feel they deserve a deal.
Too many of them got rich by screwing everyone in sight. Why would they suddenly change the m.o. that got them where they are?
.....when you are hired in a large firm for wages that bagboys at the supermarket can top, until they pay you what the bagboys make
......when work your heart out for your employer, and at the end of the year they give you a 0.25 cent raise
......when your employer lies about you to the other partners so he can cover himself from pro-bono work that he promised, saying that it was your project to work on after-hours
......when you get on your own, and begin working, and you get a bad client or two who threaten to sue when you truly were not at fault
.......when clients stiff you for payment (delay payment)
.......when clients don't pay you at all (non-payment)
........when contractors take credit for your design as their own
........when the Interior Decorator becomes involved in your project - that's when everyone else loses...........
........when people string you along for free advice, holding out an invisible carrot of a potential project
........when the City lies to you about promised work, and then gives it to a boutique bigbigbucks firm from the sixth borough of New York
........when clients quote HGTV and THIS OLD HOUSE to see if you knew about the latest gizmos and practices......'thought you knew this'?
........and much much more!
Note to Miles - don't worry, wont go on Ad Nauseum about this..........!
All - ask me how many T-Shirts I have now!
I was 6 when I became bitter and mean, so you know...Architecture was the perfect profession for me.
(Not all of us are bitter and mean)
Never let the bastards get you down.
yup. the trick is, be the bastard.
Why to be a bastard and spread the misery?
When ARE fees go up?