I am doing a renovation on a brownstone where the client wants to remove a possible load-bearing wall - we still have yet to determine if it is load-bearing. My partner thinks we need an engineer to sign off on the work - being that I am licensed, I thought I had authority to sign off on the work. The DOB says either architect or engineer can sign and seal drawings for permit approvals. Who is correct? Can we go this alone without hiring an engineer? Thanks!
archinine
Jun 2, 18 2:07 pm
Sounds like you’re in nyc. And with the DOB a good rule of thumb is if you haven’t done it/seen it done before and are thus asking this sort of question, you’re probably going to spend just as much time/money on research and resubmissions than if you hired someone else who is an expert and has that specific experience. Further by signing off on something like this you’re opening the door to be sued for anything that goes wrong in regards to a topic that you have only tenuous knowledge of. It’s a risky situation to enter into so you have to weigh that + your time vs the cost of outsourcing that risk + time.
But to answer your question, yes, in nyc for small scale residential under a set number of stories and square footage, either an architect or p.engineer can sign off for the entire project. You need to research all specifics of the building and it’s requirements to confirm that is allowed for this particular site. The information you need is buried in the dob’s website, spread across many sections and cross references.
You’ll still need to provide all loads calculations for any structural work. Which again is where hiring someone who specializes in loads, an engineer, will likely save you time and money.
That is of course if said wall is actually load bearing and you cannot find any work around within your design to avoid ‘removing’ it. Then of course you need to replace it with some other beam or column etc that transfers whatever load that wall was supporting. Moving load bearing walls in existing buildings is very expensive so make sure your client understands this fact, and agrees that it is worth the cost to achieve their open plan hgtv kitchen or whatever.
What a question! If you do not know the answer, the answer is yes.
Who gave you an architect's license, they should have to take it away from you, for your question in this forum!
Miles Jaffe
Jun 3, 18 9:47 am
+++
rerenyc
Jun 6, 18 12:26 pm
I am female, RA. Maybe you will be working for me some day.
shellarchitect
Jun 6, 18 1:01 pm
a female architect? now I know you are joking
shellarchitect
Jun 6, 18 1:01 pm
I apologize for any offence - there are not nearly enough women or minorities in architecture
rerenyc
Jun 6, 18 3:21 pm
I appreciate that shellarchitect. I am both woman and ethnic minority so I am required maintain a sense of humor in this world...
Wilma Buttfit
Jun 3, 18 9:00 am
Does your insurance cover structural engineering?
rerenyc
Jun 6, 18 12:15 pm
tintt, I am in the process of getting insurance now, will check.
It's wood construction so when we remove the gyp board I am fairly certain that I have the ability to determine whether it's load bearing along with my contractor's input who did framing for 10 years. However I am concerned with the liability.
I found an engineer will come out and review the 2 walls in question for a pretty low fee, and design a beam if necessary. The fee is substantially lower than if we have a have structural engineer provide drawings for us.
I sincerely appreciate the toughtful comments. Admittedly I worked for other offices for 12+ years where I wasn't exposed to the administrative side of things, so starting out there seems to be a lot of grey areas. There is a first for everything, although I am licensed I am still learning. Thanks so much.
p.s. I remember why I quit this forum in 2006. Some of the comments can get so unnecessarily nasty.
shellarchitect
Jun 6, 18 1:04 pm
in my area the building dept has authority to require an engineer's stamp If they deem the proposed design too complicated for an architect. I'm not sure how its actually phrased but that's the net effect. I've found building officials to be pretty helpful if you ask them questions ahead of time.
Unfortunately this is about as gentle as a thread can be
rerenyc
Jun 6, 18 3:15 pm
That makes a lot of sense. I would never claim to overrule a PE in any complex job, but for a wall that appears to have been added at a later date and therefore not load-bearing, I was weary of asking the client to pay for PE stamped drawings. Thanks for your input!
Yes agreed this thread is pretty chill but suggesting that one's licensed be revoked for simply asking the question pretty offensive. Then I remember - some people are dicks.
Wilma Buttfit
Jun 6, 18 1:42 pm
I actually come here because everyone is pretty friendly and helpful.
JeromeS
Jun 6, 18 7:47 pm
I've handled it this way: I do my own framing plan, lay out beam / bearing locations, shear walls, etc. Send it to my engineer for redmarks and annotation, which he returns and I draft. I put his name on the title block and I sign the drawings as RA.
I minimize my fee impact and have the peace of mind that it was reviewed by someone else. Shared liability in the event of a mistake
Medusa
Jun 9, 18 11:00 am
If the DOB says a licensed architect can sign off on the work, and you are a licensed architect, then you have your answer. Although, if I were you, I would let the engineer do the whole job since it sounds like you are in over your head.
I am doing a renovation on a brownstone where the client wants to remove a possible load-bearing wall - we still have yet to determine if it is load-bearing. My partner thinks we need an engineer to sign off on the work - being that I am licensed, I thought I had authority to sign off on the work. The DOB says either architect or engineer can sign and seal drawings for permit approvals. Who is correct? Can we go this alone without hiring an engineer? Thanks!
Sounds like you’re in nyc. And with the DOB a good rule of thumb is if you haven’t done it/seen it done before and are thus asking this sort of question, you’re probably going to spend just as much time/money on research and resubmissions than if you hired someone else who is an expert and has that specific experience. Further by signing off on something like this you’re opening the door to be sued for anything that goes wrong in regards to a topic that you have only tenuous knowledge of. It’s a risky situation to enter into so you have to weigh that + your time vs the cost of outsourcing that risk + time.
But to answer your question, yes, in nyc for small scale residential under a set number of stories and square footage, either an architect or p.engineer can sign off for the entire project. You need to research all specifics of the building and it’s requirements to confirm that is allowed for this particular site. The information you need is buried in the dob’s website, spread across many sections and cross references.
You’ll still need to provide all loads calculations for any structural work. Which again is where hiring someone who specializes in loads, an engineer, will likely save you time and money.
That is of course if said wall is actually load bearing and you cannot find any work around within your design to avoid ‘removing’ it. Then of course you need to replace it with some other beam or column etc that transfers whatever load that wall was supporting. Moving load bearing walls in existing buildings is very expensive so make sure your client understands this fact, and agrees that it is worth the cost to achieve their open plan hgtv kitchen or whatever.
What a question! If you do not know the answer, the answer is yes.
Who gave you an architect's license, they should have to take it away from you, for your question in this forum!
+++
I am female, RA. Maybe you will be working for me some day.
a female architect? now I know you are joking
I apologize for any offence - there are not nearly enough women or minorities in architecture
I appreciate that shellarchitect. I am both woman and ethnic minority so I am required maintain a sense of humor in this world...
Does your insurance cover structural engineering?
tintt, I am in the process of getting insurance now, will check.
It's wood construction so when we remove the gyp board I am fairly certain that I have the ability to determine whether it's load bearing along with my contractor's input who did framing for 10 years. However I am concerned with the liability.
I found an engineer will come out and review the 2 walls in question for a pretty low fee, and design a beam if necessary. The fee is substantially lower than if we have a have structural engineer provide drawings for us.
I sincerely appreciate the toughtful comments. Admittedly I worked for other offices for 12+ years where I wasn't exposed to the administrative side of things, so starting out there seems to be a lot of grey areas. There is a first for everything, although I am licensed I am still learning. Thanks so much.
p.s. I remember why I quit this forum in 2006. Some of the comments can get so unnecessarily nasty.
in my area the building dept has authority to require an engineer's stamp If they deem the proposed design too complicated for an architect. I'm not sure how its actually phrased but that's the net effect. I've found building officials to be pretty helpful if you ask them questions ahead of time.
Unfortunately this is about as gentle as a thread can be
That makes a lot of sense. I would never claim to overrule a PE in any complex job, but for a wall that appears to have been added at a later date and therefore not load-bearing, I was weary of asking the client to pay for PE stamped drawings. Thanks for your input!
Yes agreed this thread is pretty chill but suggesting that one's licensed be revoked for simply asking the question pretty offensive. Then I remember - some people are dicks.
I actually come here because everyone is pretty friendly and helpful.
I've handled it this way: I do my own framing plan, lay out beam / bearing locations, shear walls, etc. Send it to my engineer for redmarks and annotation, which he returns and I draft. I put his name on the title block and I sign the drawings as RA.
I minimize my fee impact and have the peace of mind that it was reviewed by someone else. Shared liability in the event of a mistake
If the DOB says a licensed architect can sign off on the work, and you are a licensed architect, then you have your answer. Although, if I were you, I would let the engineer do the whole job since it sounds like you are in over your head.