We are under contract with a firm who has included MEP & Structural Engineer fees in the contract. We recently asked for a copy of the MEP & Structural contracts, as the engineers they are using don't come highly recommended. The architect said they won't release those contracts as the fees are already included in the architects overall proposal.
Is it common practice for an architect firm to NOT release the bids they'e received for MEP & Structural? And if so, what is the reasoning behind this?
Thank you in advance for you help.
Non Sequitur
May 7, 18 2:48 pm
Yes, common and the reason is likely for confidentiality.
Are you a project manager?
dawn@banyan
May 7, 18 3:12 pm
I'm not a project manager. I am the client. The original proposal for building an approx 8,000 square foot club house for a golf course was $32,750 which included the MEP & Structural Engineer fees. However, now that we are entering into Part III (Design Development) & Part IV (Construction Documents) the original proposal has gone from $32,750 to $59,500. The architect said the reason for the increase was due to the MEP & Structural Engineer fees. When we asked to review these fees, we were denied.
We have been given the names of the MEP & Structural and we haven't hear very good things about them. So this is why we are concerned.
Non Sequitur
May 7, 18 3:28 pm
Understood. As a client, you should be getting a break-down of each consultant's fees. Typically, it is the client that retains each consultant separately to avoid this situation. Is this a design build / value p.eng type contract?
Rusty!
May 7, 18 3:40 pm
Design contract that you as an owner sign with the Architect will be independent of any separate Consultant Contracts the Architect signs beyond that. No different that Consultants signed by Owner.
In any case, Project Design Fee should have included all costs of all base and consultancy services, and should have been disclosed in the original RFP.
Has the scope of work changed since? What is the nature of construction contract? Bid or negotiated? Is design contract based on percentage of cost? The only way fees cane change like that mid design is if scope of services has changed.
Architects are generally not good with dealing with more complex contractual frameworks. Smart ones hire lawyers.
dawn@banyan
May 7, 18 3:52 pm
Yes, the scope of work has changed. We originally had the second story attic trusses as a storage area and we've since changed this area into two offices (still using the trusses, and not building an entire 2nd floor). We understand there should naturally be an increase in structural, due to this change. We are more curious/concerned that the architect won't release the specifics of their consultants fees. We were recently told we can hire our own MEP & Structural and that these fees will be removed from our contract. This seems like it could be good news, but we also don't want to hire anyone that doesn't work well with the architect. It's a tough call.
Rusty!
May 7, 18 4:02 pm
It would be easier if MEP and struct was Architect's consultant. Construction Administration becomes really messy if they are Owner's consultant. Such consultant will also become very unresponsive to Architect, because they don't have a contractual relationship and such delays can be detrimental to project execution. Just tell the architect who to hire and how much to pay them (call it an allowance). It won't be the first time. You might have caught the Architect skimming here... But they are still not required to disclose their consultant contracts.
senjohnblutarsky
May 7, 18 4:05 pm
Most of my work allows a 10-15% mark up of consultant fees. So, we normally show that fee to validate our mark up. I've never been involved in a project where SMEP consultants were hired separately. They've always been under our contract. Apparently, people here do such things. I suspect this is more of a developer type project that has this happen. Usually, survey, testing, geotechnical, and other services are hired by the Owner.
You need to review what was included in the original contract. If SMEP were included, what was the scope of services. If they were included, but not detailed out, the Architect may have just made up a consultant fee, and then tried to shop it later. I've seen that happen. Usually, it doesn't work out for the Architect. If it wasn't included at all, then we have an obvious change order.
Do you know what went wrong with the subconsultants previously? Is it something you can keep an eye on?
We are under contract with a firm who has included MEP & Structural Engineer fees in the contract. We recently asked for a copy of the MEP & Structural contracts, as the engineers they are using don't come highly recommended. The architect said they won't release those contracts as the fees are already included in the architects overall proposal.
Is it common practice for an architect firm to NOT release the bids they'e received for MEP & Structural? And if so, what is the reasoning behind this?
Thank you in advance for you help.
Yes, common and the reason is likely for confidentiality.
Are you a project manager?
I'm not a project manager. I am the client. The original proposal for building an approx 8,000 square foot club house for a golf course was $32,750 which included the MEP & Structural Engineer fees. However, now that we are entering into Part III (Design Development) & Part IV (Construction Documents) the original proposal has gone from $32,750 to $59,500. The architect said the reason for the increase was due to the MEP & Structural Engineer fees. When we asked to review these fees, we were denied.
We have been given the names of the MEP & Structural and we haven't hear very good things about them. So this is why we are concerned.
Understood. As a client, you should be getting a break-down of each consultant's fees. Typically, it is the client that retains each consultant separately to avoid this situation. Is this a design build / value p.eng type contract?
Design contract that you as an owner sign with the Architect will be independent of any separate Consultant Contracts the Architect signs beyond that. No different that Consultants signed by Owner.
In any case, Project Design Fee should have included all costs of all base and consultancy services, and should have been disclosed in the original RFP.
Has the scope of work changed since? What is the nature of construction contract? Bid or negotiated? Is design contract based on percentage of cost? The only way fees cane change like that mid design is if scope of services has changed.
Architects are generally not good with dealing with more complex contractual frameworks. Smart ones hire lawyers.
Yes, the scope of work has changed. We originally had the second story attic trusses as a storage area and we've since changed this area into two offices (still using the trusses, and not building an entire 2nd floor). We understand there should naturally be an increase in structural, due to this change. We are more curious/concerned that the architect won't release the specifics of their consultants fees. We were recently told we can hire our own MEP & Structural and that these fees will be removed from our contract. This seems like it could be good news, but we also don't want to hire anyone that doesn't work well with the architect. It's a tough call.
It would be easier if MEP and struct was Architect's consultant. Construction Administration becomes really messy if they are Owner's consultant. Such consultant will also become very unresponsive to Architect, because they don't have a contractual relationship and such delays can be detrimental to project execution. Just tell the architect who to hire and how much to pay them (call it an allowance). It won't be the first time. You might have caught the Architect skimming here... But they are still not required to disclose their consultant contracts.
Most of my work allows a 10-15% mark up of consultant fees. So, we normally show that fee to validate our mark up. I've never been involved in a project where SMEP consultants were hired separately. They've always been under our contract. Apparently, people here do such things. I suspect this is more of a developer type project that has this happen. Usually, survey, testing, geotechnical, and other services are hired by the Owner.
You need to review what was included in the original contract. If SMEP were included, what was the scope of services. If they were included, but not detailed out, the Architect may have just made up a consultant fee, and then tried to shop it later. I've seen that happen. Usually, it doesn't work out for the Architect. If it wasn't included at all, then we have an obvious change order.
Do you know what went wrong with the subconsultants previously? Is it something you can keep an eye on?