Currently having an offer as a junior architect in
SOM Chicago and KPF New York
In terms of work, I pretty much prefer SOM but I’m more used to live in NYC as all of my friends are living here, and actually KPF pays 10k more then SOM. Considering the living cost in new york and chicago, 10k is acceptable , I think,
I know that I have to work there for crazy hours (both) and I think money is not the biggest issue for me, but one thing I would like to have is a balance in work, that I don’t want to be a cad monkey or rendering machine doing same things..
actually corporate firm wasn’t my first goal, I wanted to go to more design focused ones, but I couldn’t get any from my applications..
So, I would like to hear more opinions from other people who knows better about corporates!
Any thoughts?
randomised
Apr 26, 18 12:02 pm
Is neither also an option? If not, I'd choose based other external factors, where would you have the best life, the best network and other more interesting and relevant offices for future employment options when you are done with corporate?
JLC-1
Apr 26, 18 2:01 pm
completely off-topic, How can you tell the difference between KPF and SOM?, even their websites are identical.
Stay in New York, closer to friends
Rusty!
Apr 27, 18 11:21 am
Well if that list of Shitty Men in Architecture was Oscars, you could say that SOM swept the Oscars.
sameolddoctor
Apr 26, 18 2:23 pm
In any corporate firm, there will be some level of stereotyping in the beginning, like cad monkey etc (as you say), but if you have good design skills, you might get to design much more than you ever would at a small or medium firm. If your talents are recognized, you might get to travel and get a very high level of exposure too.
And, the corporate firms you mention are indeed design focused. There are many that just do production, but not KPF and SOM.
Regarding these two, I've heard from many many ex-employees that SOM Chicago (and indeed most of their offices) are hellholes resembling a sweatshop and absolutely abhorrent practices. Not to mention the arrogant principals. I would choose KPF in your situation, I think you stand a chance to learn a lot more too.
zonker
Apr 26, 18 3:04 pm
I didn't graduate from an "ivy" but stated at SOM, SF. I got in on my Revit skills, I did get to do a fair amount of design. Learned a lot, crazy hours, once worked till 5am.
What was interesting was the stratification - if you're an "Ivy" grad, you got it made there - if not, then you're just a grunt like I was - fixing Revit projects, the "designers" broke
sameolddoctor
Apr 26, 18 4:26 pm
Yup, heard that too. It is a very class-based system there, akin to an old boys network
.
ovalle
Apr 26, 18 5:40 pm
If you are a junior architect at SOM, I believe they consider that a C-level position. C-levels get paid over time, time and a half. You will be doing plenty of overtime at SOM, so the KPF extra $10k really isn't that big of a deal. You'll probably be making more in over time at SOM.
Reviendra
Apr 26, 18 5:46 pm
I got D-level, so I'm not getting any overtime pay.. both in KPF and SOM.
archinine
Apr 26, 18 6:21 pm
KPF has gone way down hill in recent years. SOM is almost worth leaving New York as you’ll be spending all your time in the office either way. If you want to be a better designer go with SOM. New York isn’t going anywhere.
At least in Chicago you’ll be able to afford a decent one bedroom in the city center without roommates. In nyc you’ll be commuting 40+ minutes each way with 2-10 roommates, assuming you don’t have some outside source of funding.
The pizza in Chicago however, is a complete joke for anyone coming from nyc. So that’s a tipping factor.
BR.TN
Apr 26, 18 7:38 pm
Oddly enough, I have ties to both of those offices.
Take KPF-NY...
Spoons
Apr 27, 18 12:43 am
Here comes the guy with KPF fetish.
BR.TN
Apr 27, 18 11:29 am
or, the only active user on this forum who actually knows both offices?
Spoons
Apr 27, 18 12:47 am
Pick the firm where you won’t be spending your weekends and weeknights doing a ton of terrible curtain wall details for some smarmy partner’s mindless generic corporate buildings.
null pointer
Apr 27, 18 11:43 am
Said before and will say it again: KPF is run by children these days. They are a bunch of kids with "Principal" on their business cards and they have no idea how to put a building together. In every single project that I've ever been peripherally involved with them, I've seen their scope cut because they just couldn't perform.
SOM on the other hand... always impressed. Those guys soak up and process information in a most impressive way.
starling
May 11, 18 12:14 am
Since your priority is a good work-life balance, some thoughts:
As an entry-level designer in a corporate firm, you will be thrown into the deep end and forced to learn how to swim. You will be under enormous pressure to perform at your very best and most efficient at all times. You will be constantly scrutinized because everyone will be expecting you to fail, including yourself. And you will fail, numerous times.
This precarious beginning to a career is also the most fruitful for you, as you will learn an incredible amount about the industry as well as yourself. The environment described is incredibly challenging but can also be incredibly rewarding if you allow it to be.
You will have to spend the first few years at your job grinding in order to earn the respect of your superiors. After that time, you can campaign for the things that matter to you: what kind of projects you want to work on, who you want to work with in the firm, etc. You will not be able to come in to a firm and start making demands, but that doesn’t mean you have to lose your self respect.
The only person who can save you from drowning is yourself. Know your limits and speak up when you are uncomfortable or if you think a project is not a good fit. The benefit of working at a corporate firm is that if one project/team/manager isn’t working for you, there are many others to choose from (depending on timing/ staffing of course).
The problem of the work life balance is not an issue with particular firms, but with the bad Managers at these firms. Both SOM and KPF have them, as do all companies. Your job will be to identify them, and steer clear.
Good managers don’t want to loose their staff. But they won’t know if you are overworked/ stressed/ uncomfortable unless you tell them. You must be willing to stand up for yourself, because no one else will.
I’m a m.arch student from one of the ivy schools,
Currently having an offer as a junior architect in
SOM Chicago and KPF New York
In terms of work, I pretty much prefer SOM but I’m more used to live in NYC as all of my friends are living here, and actually KPF pays 10k more then SOM. Considering the living cost in new york and chicago, 10k is acceptable , I think,
I know that I have to work there for crazy hours (both) and I think money is not the biggest issue for me, but one thing I would like to have is a balance in work, that I don’t want to be a cad monkey or rendering machine doing same things..
actually corporate firm wasn’t my first goal, I wanted to go to more design focused ones, but I couldn’t get any from my applications..
So, I would like to hear more opinions from other people who knows better about corporates!
Any thoughts?
Is neither also an option? If not, I'd choose based other external factors, where would you have the best life, the best network and other more interesting and relevant offices for future employment options when you are done with corporate?
completely off-topic, How can you tell the difference between KPF and SOM?, even their websites are identical.
Stay in New York, closer to friends
Well if that list of Shitty Men in Architecture was Oscars, you could say that SOM swept the Oscars.
In any corporate firm, there will be some level of stereotyping in the beginning, like cad monkey etc (as you say), but if you have good design skills, you might get to design much more than you ever would at a small or medium firm. If your talents are recognized, you might get to travel and get a very high level of exposure too.
And, the corporate firms you mention are indeed design focused. There are many that just do production, but not KPF and SOM.
Regarding these two, I've heard from many many ex-employees that SOM Chicago (and indeed most of their offices) are hellholes resembling a sweatshop and absolutely abhorrent practices. Not to mention the arrogant principals. I would choose KPF in your situation, I think you stand a chance to learn a lot more too.
I didn't graduate from an "ivy" but stated at SOM, SF. I got in on my Revit skills, I did get to do a fair amount of design. Learned a lot, crazy hours, once worked till 5am.
What was interesting was the stratification - if you're an "Ivy" grad, you got it made there - if not, then you're just a grunt like I was - fixing Revit projects, the "designers" broke
Yup, heard that too. It is a very class-based system there, akin to an old boys network
.
If you are a junior architect at SOM, I believe they consider that a C-level position. C-levels get paid over time, time and a half. You will be doing plenty of overtime at SOM, so the KPF extra $10k really isn't that big of a deal. You'll probably be making more in over time at SOM.
I got D-level, so I'm not getting any overtime pay.. both in KPF and SOM.
KPF has gone way down hill in recent years. SOM is almost worth leaving New York as you’ll be spending all your time in the office either way. If you want to be a better designer go with SOM. New York isn’t going anywhere.
At least in Chicago you’ll be able to afford a decent one bedroom in the city center without roommates. In nyc you’ll be commuting 40+ minutes each way with 2-10 roommates, assuming you don’t have some outside source of funding.
The pizza in Chicago however, is a complete joke for anyone coming from nyc. So that’s a tipping factor.
Oddly enough, I have ties to both of those offices.
Take KPF-NY...
Here comes the guy with KPF fetish.
or, the only active user on this forum who actually knows both offices?
Pick the firm where you won’t be spending your weekends and weeknights doing a ton of terrible curtain wall details for some smarmy partner’s mindless generic corporate buildings.
Said before and will say it again: KPF is run by children these days. They are a bunch of kids with "Principal" on their business cards and they have no idea how to put a building together. In every single project that I've ever been peripherally involved with them, I've seen their scope cut because they just couldn't perform.
SOM on the other hand... always impressed. Those guys soak up and process information in a most impressive way.
Since your priority is a good work-life balance, some thoughts:
As an entry-level designer in a corporate firm, you will be thrown into the deep end and forced to learn how to swim. You will be under enormous pressure to perform at your very best and most efficient at all times. You will be constantly scrutinized because everyone will be expecting you to fail, including yourself. And you will fail, numerous times.
This precarious beginning to a career is also the most fruitful for you, as you will learn an incredible amount about the industry as well as yourself. The environment described is incredibly challenging but can also be incredibly rewarding if you allow it to be.
You will have to spend the first few years at your job grinding in order to earn the respect of your superiors. After that time, you can campaign for the things that matter to you: what kind of projects you want to work on, who you want to work with in the firm, etc. You will not be able to come in to a firm and start making demands, but that doesn’t mean you have to lose your self respect.
The only person who can save you from drowning is yourself. Know your limits and speak up when you are uncomfortable or if you think a project is not a good fit. The benefit of working at a corporate firm is that if one project/team/manager isn’t working for you, there are many others to choose from (depending on timing/ staffing of course).
The problem of the work life balance is not an issue with particular firms, but with the bad Managers at these firms. Both SOM and KPF have them, as do all companies. Your job will be to identify them, and steer clear.
Good managers don’t want to loose their staff. But they won’t know if you are overworked/ stressed/ uncomfortable unless you tell them. You must be willing to stand up for yourself, because no one else will.
Best of luck!