TL;DR - I am helping a family member with a kitchen renovation. I currently work for a large GC, and this new, small scale residential project is bringing up a lot of questions for me about the typical Architect/GC/Client relationship in small scale construction
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Architects who work on single family residential/small renovations - how do you negotiate client v. GC v. Architect responsibilities? In my work for a large developer/GC, the relationships are very clear. But I am helping my aunt and uncle re-design their kitchen, and I find the delineation of roles very tenuous and confusing.
For example: I created the new layout, drawings, etc, and put together a preliminary estimate, finish options, and appliance package.
My aunt and uncle then visited a cabinet showroom and appliance shop and picked finish options and appliances. Is it wrong or unprofessional that I did not go with them? Or that I am not dealing directly with the vendors?
To be clear, they understand that this is my first time working with someone in this capacity. We don't have a formal agreement (I'd also appreciate feedback about whether that is a terrible idea), so I'm not worried about not fulfilling aspects of a contract.
For the future though, I'm interested to understand how these roles should be broken down, or if it winds up being flexible or based completely on the exact scope you would outline in the Arch/Client contract?
Thanks in advance for advice
Non Sequitur
Apr 9, 18 2:01 pm
Don't work for friends and family
fcf328
Apr 9, 18 2:18 pm
The issue of working for family aside, how might you deal with this question/issue?
thatsthat
Apr 9, 18 4:53 pm
Agreed. All of the architects in my family have a clear 'don't work for family' rule. The only exception we've had to this is for family members that don't insist on a contract or drawings when hiring a company to do work on their property. We always advise having some kind of contract and drawings prior to work being performed. This is pretty much where the advising ends.
wurdan freo
Apr 9, 18 2:47 pm
not having a contract is a mistake. That's why you don't know what you're supposed to do and they probably don't either.
Many times fixtures and finishes are selected by the homeowner. Can be done by whoever, you, ID, contractor but each method has different cost and procurement implications... usually defined in the contract.
I would put together a small scope of work to make sure you and your relations are on the same page...
fcf328
Apr 9, 18 2:56 pm
Yeah, in hindsight I totally should have. We're far enough along in the process (layout designed, contractor selected, most of the vendors nailed down), that I think the ship has sailed.
Would you advise creating a separate, small SOW for what my responsibility in the construction process will be?
Le Courvoisier
Apr 9, 18 4:46 pm
Don't sleep with your client.
Edit: I failed to read that it was a family member client...
fcf328
Apr 9, 18 5:00 pm
Lol, definitely not sleeping with them
Ralph Hughes
May 31, 18 1:39 am
For handling any small or major projects, you need to first understand the needs of the costumer & prior work, create a complete layout of all costs of fixtures that will be involved during the project work. Summing up the cost you must sign contract with the client. But as that's your first project, will certainly provide you experience and boost up your confidence as Arch. Professional in future assignments.
joseffischer
May 31, 18 11:30 am
A lot of architects are the GC for residential work. When there are separate archs and GCs, still many more architects have only signed a contract for the design and their responsibilities end somewhere during the permitting process depending on their contract. Many designers in this role aren't architects, as it's not required, and when I wasn't yet an architect most of my work in this area was to get the permit. My contract was signed before I started work and often before a GC was picked. I assume, and most of the time knew, the Owner used my drawings in picking a GC and getting pricing, though nothing in my contract obligated my drawings to help with pricing or picking a GC, and my contract clearly stated that the Owner needed to have a GC on board who would put his name down on the permit application with my drawings. The building department would make their comments, less and less of them as I got experience, and I would make alterations, at first for free, and later at cost, until the permit was approved. Then my role ended, and often the plans and what got built changed afterwards due to further owner changes and GC changes that I wasn't a part of. There's a spot on the applications in my area and I included a statement on all my sheets that stated the designer wasn't involved in construction.
A lot of my work before being registered was also for design/build firms, many run by someone who went through architecture school, had a GC license, and never considered getting registered as an architect. My roles there as employee were both on the drawing and construction side (mostly framing, roofing, and flooring/cabinet/trim installation). All the builders I worked with included base models in their contract for everything down to the carpet finish type, baseboard, paint quality/brand, etc. Items of question had allowances, like cabinet hardware (anything the client wanted that costs $/each or less). Then the builder's would have schedules and drop-dead dates of the last time the owner could change their mind or make a product choice without effecting time and money. For those having trouble deciding, there were limited "here's what I've installed before, pick one of three" type meetings, but generally the guys that made money did not handhold the clients or go to showrooms to pick items. That's not to say that some people don't do this, but get ready to lose a day with the wife only to have her change her mind after her friend shared a pic from houzz.com two weeks later.
Given that this is with family without a contract, hopefully nothings going sour and you can go back to them and say something like "well I've been doing a lot of research and asked some friends in the industry, and we need a product list and I need it filled out and signed off from you by X date." If they have trouble deciding and ask for your help, let them know that usually that's handled during design and typically costs extra as a separate expense from the construction budget. In the past when doing such work, I always liked having deliverables that aligned with costs in the contract, so while I didn't personally do much of this type of work, when I had to, I'd set up a houzz account for clients, steer them in the right direction, and after about a month of touching base and a couple meetings, present a materials/finish board much like what's done in the commercial world. If the client changed an item or two on their own, that's fine, but if they started making enough changes where they had to come back to me and ask my opinion, I'd state that we already signed off on that part of the process and that a new board would costs 'X'. I was initially surprised that nearly all the people who initially hired me to help them in this area would gladly pay for the next iteration 2 or even 5 times over. Maybe I charged too little for boards, *shrug*, but I made my money and enjoyed doing them.
TL;DR - I am helping a family member with a kitchen renovation. I currently work for a large GC, and this new, small scale residential project is bringing up a lot of questions for me about the typical Architect/GC/Client relationship in small scale construction
---
Architects who work on single family residential/small renovations - how do you negotiate client v. GC v. Architect responsibilities? In my work for a large developer/GC, the relationships are very clear. But I am helping my aunt and uncle re-design their kitchen, and I find the delineation of roles very tenuous and confusing.
For example: I created the new layout, drawings, etc, and put together a preliminary estimate, finish options, and appliance package.
My aunt and uncle then visited a cabinet showroom and appliance shop and picked finish options and appliances. Is it wrong or unprofessional that I did not go with them? Or that I am not dealing directly with the vendors?
To be clear, they understand that this is my first time working with someone in this capacity. We don't have a formal agreement (I'd also appreciate feedback about whether that is a terrible idea), so I'm not worried about not fulfilling aspects of a contract.
For the future though, I'm interested to understand how these roles should be broken down, or if it winds up being flexible or based completely on the exact scope you would outline in the Arch/Client contract?
Thanks in advance for advice
Don't work for friends and family
The issue of working for family aside, how might you deal with this question/issue?
Agreed. All of the architects in my family have a clear 'don't work for family' rule. The only exception we've had to this is for family members that don't insist on a contract or drawings when hiring a company to do work on their property. We always advise having some kind of contract and drawings prior to work being performed. This is pretty much where the advising ends.
not having a contract is a mistake. That's why you don't know what you're supposed to do and they probably don't either.
Many times fixtures and finishes are selected by the homeowner. Can be done by whoever, you, ID, contractor but each method has different cost and procurement implications... usually defined in the contract.
I would put together a small scope of work to make sure you and your relations are on the same page...
Yeah, in hindsight I totally should have. We're far enough along in the process (layout designed, contractor selected, most of the vendors nailed down), that I think the ship has sailed.
Would you advise creating a separate, small SOW for what my responsibility in the construction process will be?
Don't sleep with your client.
Edit: I failed to read that it was a family member client...
Lol, definitely not sleeping with them
For handling any small or major projects, you need to first understand the needs of the costumer & prior work, create a complete layout of all costs of fixtures that will be involved during the project work. Summing up the cost you must sign contract with the client. But as that's your first project, will certainly provide you experience and boost up your confidence as Arch. Professional in future assignments.
A lot of architects are the GC for residential work. When there are separate archs and GCs, still many more architects have only signed a contract for the design and their responsibilities end somewhere during the permitting process depending on their contract. Many designers in this role aren't architects, as it's not required, and when I wasn't yet an architect most of my work in this area was to get the permit. My contract was signed before I started work and often before a GC was picked. I assume, and most of the time knew, the Owner used my drawings in picking a GC and getting pricing, though nothing in my contract obligated my drawings to help with pricing or picking a GC, and my contract clearly stated that the Owner needed to have a GC on board who would put his name down on the permit application with my drawings. The building department would make their comments, less and less of them as I got experience, and I would make alterations, at first for free, and later at cost, until the permit was approved. Then my role ended, and often the plans and what got built changed afterwards due to further owner changes and GC changes that I wasn't a part of. There's a spot on the applications in my area and I included a statement on all my sheets that stated the designer wasn't involved in construction.
A lot of my work before being registered was also for design/build firms, many run by someone who went through architecture school, had a GC license, and never considered getting registered as an architect. My roles there as employee were both on the drawing and construction side (mostly framing, roofing, and flooring/cabinet/trim installation). All the builders I worked with included base models in their contract for everything down to the carpet finish type, baseboard, paint quality/brand, etc. Items of question had allowances, like cabinet hardware (anything the client wanted that costs $/each or less). Then the builder's would have schedules and drop-dead dates of the last time the owner could change their mind or make a product choice without effecting time and money. For those having trouble deciding, there were limited "here's what I've installed before, pick one of three" type meetings, but generally the guys that made money did not handhold the clients or go to showrooms to pick items. That's not to say that some people don't do this, but get ready to lose a day with the wife only to have her change her mind after her friend shared a pic from houzz.com two weeks later.
Given that this is with family without a contract, hopefully nothings going sour and you can go back to them and say something like "well I've been doing a lot of research and asked some friends in the industry, and we need a product list and I need it filled out and signed off from you by X date." If they have trouble deciding and ask for your help, let them know that usually that's handled during design and typically costs extra as a separate expense from the construction budget. In the past when doing such work, I always liked having deliverables that aligned with costs in the contract, so while I didn't personally do much of this type of work, when I had to, I'd set up a houzz account for clients, steer them in the right direction, and after about a month of touching base and a couple meetings, present a materials/finish board much like what's done in the commercial world. If the client changed an item or two on their own, that's fine, but if they started making enough changes where they had to come back to me and ask my opinion, I'd state that we already signed off on that part of the process and that a new board would costs 'X'. I was initially surprised that nearly all the people who initially hired me to help them in this area would gladly pay for the next iteration 2 or even 5 times over. Maybe I charged too little for boards, *shrug*, but I made my money and enjoyed doing them.
Sorry for the long post but hopefully it helps.