Sorry to bump this thread, but I feel the need to make absolutely clear that I am not affiliated with any of the other posters with the partial name Pete. I think I may have to change aliases after this farce.
placebeyondthesplines__
Mar 19, 18 12:22 pm
or you could just shut the fuck up
randomised
Mar 19, 18 1:00 pm
Just realised that Richard Meier got his Pritzker in 1984, that year from the George Orwell novel, for the motion picture 1984 Eurythmics made the soundtrack, track no.2 Sexcrime (1984):
Sex crime, crimeCan I take this for granted
With your eyes over me?
In this place, this wintery home
I know there's always someone in
Sex crime, sex crime
Nineteen eighty four
Nineteen eighty four
And so I face the wall
Turn my back against it all
How I wish I'd been unborn
Wish I was unliving here
Sex crime, sex crime
Sex crime, sex crime
Nineteen eighty four
Nineteen eighty four
I'll pull the bricks down
One by one
Leave a big hole in the wall
Just where you are looking in
Sex crime, sex crime
Nineteen eighty four
Nineteen eighty four
Nineteen eighty four
x-jla
Mar 19, 18 2:39 pm
“One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.”
Rusty!
Mar 19, 18 7:09 pm
I am super grateful I don't work and never worked at a place that has such shitheads.
looks at the spreadsheet. Finds current and former coworkers on the list.
Well then. I'll just let the door hit my ass on the way out.
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 19, 18 7:50 pm
Sorry R.
randomised
Mar 20, 18 12:24 pm
E.g.?
Arif Javed
Mar 20, 18 3:33 pm
Well I seem to be the last person to find out about this, is it still possible to get the link to the sheet?
I checked, couldn't find any Arif Javed on that list :)
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 20, 18 6:40 pm
I had a male colleague who refused to work on a project I was leading because he "didn't take instruction from women." He was fired not long after.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 20, 18 9:10 pm
it was a christian thing
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 20, 18 9:13 pm
i pray for his wife
flatroof
Mar 20, 18 7:17 pm
Guess new grads have to settle with designing Chili's and drab office parks if they want to avoid toxic power dynamics...maybe.
curtkram
Mar 20, 18 7:47 pm
what else are new grads going to do?
geezertect
Mar 20, 18 8:16 pm
Chili's and drab office parks comprise most of the profession. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 21, 18 11:52 am
I've been tracking the document as many of you have, consider the documents as you would consider a construction document set, redlines are going to occur, the project managers are making decisions.
Can I say I don't have concerns? For the most part I don't, I am a bit concerned about what one's expectations are about a rigorous studio environment in a university setting is, and whether or not that should carry over to a professional environment. I'm also concerned about dead people on the list.
Rusty!
Mar 21, 18 6:00 pm
I was surprised to see Vitruvius on the list. But the accuser has a point. 10 books on Architecture are really 10 sexual innuendos.
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 21, 18 6:07 pm
#vitruvianSAM
Chemex
Mar 21, 18 7:39 pm
Misspellings aside, it seems like there is one figure that stands out from the rest, with mipultiple accounts of student/intern chasing that seems especially distressing given his stature in the media — can’t imagine how discouraging that kind of culture must be for a young architect when they are treated so poorly.
But like I said before, minus a few exceptions, this list also seems to be the least talented media-darlings. Media needs to rediscover the joy of architecture rather than prop up douchey design-bros.
x-jla
Mar 21, 18 9:20 pm
Really great idea to give them power over the licensing of the interns.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 21, 18 9:26 pm
This came across my feed. Seems relevant. I might try being a man for a few days.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 21, 18 9:34 pm
Thanks for the pointers.
Driko
Apr 6, 18 1:56 pm
I cant wait to make a Shitty Women in X field list.
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 6, 18 2:07 pm
Get to it you hump.
WhistleBlower
Apr 8, 18 7:45 am
Hey there SAM-list,
Firstly, thank you Donna Sink for your creating this forum. Who knew that it would create such controversy!
I'm the Original Poster who had their leg (actually--knee) touched.
Original Post, SAM: He touched my knee when he was sitting in front of me in Piper Auditorium. He was trying to get my attention but this seemingly innocent gesture (Harrassment Lite?) was coupled with his attempt to make an alluring, "come hither" look at me. I got the impression he would have been open to more if i gave him the time of day. Ick. And I also had heard about his affair with a current student- everyone knew. It was the talk of the trays.
I'll tell you the reasons why I posted the leg incident:
"Touching my leg" captures with precise detail an action that is part of a spectrum of harassment by people in power to people. The power of these subtle actions are that they fly under the radar. Would touching my leg hold up in a court of law? No, of course not. Did he do behavior that in professional settings would be deemed completely inappropriate? Of course.
With SAM: All of a sudden, the tables have turned, and the actions of perpetrators are under a microscope: no perpetrator is potentially spared a listing on SAM.
Shame is not a powerful motivator. Fear is a powerful motivator. SAM and #MeToo all of a sudden makes harassment unsavory. We are all rightfully, men and women, stirred. And many men (and some women) in architecture will be afraid for the rest of their lives that they will end up on a list like SAM.
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 12, 18 3:26 am
There are men on that list, rapists, that are actively working in various aspects of the profession, and are doing so with impunity. That in and of itself is horrible.
I do have a question for you, and one that has been more open to debate, how do you feel about the inclusion of those - men and women - individuals that run a particularly difficult, or what may be perceived as a toxic studio culture inside the schools? I'm not talking about a misogynistic culture, but one not as nurturing as they expected? Should those people be included - given that I understand the list is, was, titled "Shitty Men in Architecture", and shitty doesn't have to necessarily mean assault, misogyny, harassment.
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 6:43 am
Toxic studio culture I see as an off-gassing of Shitty Architecture Men. Some SAMs also are sexual harassers. Some are not. I've been treated absolutely POSITIVELY horribly by SAMs who weren't interested in me sexually/didn't sexually harass me since they hated me. (I'm considered an attractive woman--so go figure...)
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 6:46 am
Also: SAMs who sexually harass are shrewd at figuring out who they can fuck with/who is vulnerable. So that's why some women/men post in SAM with "I never experienced this behavior..." That is EXACTLY the point--SAMs get where they are through being consummate charmers. They are very manipulative.
WhistleBlower
Apr 11, 18 3:45 am
There's a COPY of the SAM circulating online until SAM returns.
I have a question: SAMs seem to infiltrate every level of being an Architect--from the Academy through the profession. So I wonder:
What do SAMs have in common with Harvey Weinsteins/sexual harassers in other fields?
What about SAMs is unique to the field of Architecture?
We have had a talent drain for so so long, whereas other fields (Medicine, Law, etc etc) have managed to make their fields (somewhat) more inclusive. So, why is Architecture this last bastion of persistent Sexism, Misogyny, Racism, Classism, Homophobia...etc etc etc?
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 13, 18 7:41 am
Last? I don't think that it's the last, nor the first. I think that we haven't heard lists of other fields doesn't mean that lists don't exist. It may be that those other professions the economic costs are higher, and access to legal remedies are easily available.
Donna Sink
Apr 13, 18 8:50 am
"What do SAMs have in common with Harvey Weinsteins/sexual harassers in other fields?" Toxic Masculinity.
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 11:52 am
To number 3, what evidence do you have to support that claim?
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 11:55 am
Also, what are your thoughts on the role of mandatory prolonged internships?
I would say anything that constantly reinforces gender normative dogma, is by its very nature, toxic.
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 12:20 pm
Apple, it’s when normative boy behavior is systematically suppressed with psychotropic drugs.
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 12:28 pm
*By female teachers who talk about th non existence of gender norms but believe the traits that females generally have are the norm.
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 12:31 pm
Apple Chris has already distinguished himself as insensitive without a capacity for empathy. Did you even go to Architecture School, Chris?
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 12:42 pm
Hmmmm Ive league? Do you mean IVY social club?
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 12:51 pm
Dont worry Chris, I’m sure they will make a drug soon for people like us.
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 1:42 pm
Apple Chris, citizen, JLA-X seem to bound at the hip--they've been commenting on each other's feeds for years. Apple Chris has some amusing posts on brickwork, quartzite milling of azul, etc. I would be careful about how you behave in this forum. You guys probably don't want people to know your real identities, would you? Would your former students want to know how disregarding you are of their investment? Yes, they overpaid for your shitty teaching, from the look of it.
It would be fairly easy to narrow down who you are as all three of you have many comments on Archinect. It would be highly embarassing for anyone to know your names after w
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 6:51 am
I had fun with Photoshop this morning: here are some SAMs. (I know I know, I need to get a life/not be inserting SAMs into photo collages...)
randomised
Apr 13, 18 7:38 am
Those are some mad photoshop skills.
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 9:26 am
SPLOOSH
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 12:14 pm
The lack of differentiation exposes deeper motives...
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 12:27 pm
Actually it's the free version, Apple Chris. Doing Photoshop collages manually is SO last year. But thanks for your ideas. How about brown for shitty architecture men, yellow ochre for diarrhea-like architecture men?
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 12:44 pm
Those color choices sound racist whistle...better stick with primary colors
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 3:33 pm
Jeez jla-x you're such a prude when it comes to toilet humor. Go get a jockstrap and gro
w up.
citizen
Apr 13, 18 11:05 am
"I know I know, I need to get a life/not be inserting SAMs into photo collages"
No, you need to do this, so you can move on to posting home addresses and lurking outside of offices. You've got some work to do!
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 11:09 am
A few of them are there twice. Extra shitty?
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 12:30 pm
Ha! The free collage maker I used actually made some shown twice...Maybe there was some computer learning involved?
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 12:39 pm
Thank you, Citizen. That's a good idea, albeit I don't have time, and am also afraid one of these, if not many, would force himself on me or expose himself (Again, I've been told I'm a beautiful woman). But, you do make a good point--Naming names is extremely important. Why not also name firms and departments? Firms, and academic departments, that give safe harbor to SAMs?
citizen
Apr 13, 18 1:11 pm
Awesome! Don't forget tax records and their children's names and school locations.
Why is that misogynistic? He was referring to the changing google icon thing. This is why we should not base our society on subjective interpretations.
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 2:06 pm
Let's just go right ahead and start a shitty men in architecture's kids and their kids' friends list too. Can't be too safe. That list will probably be 60% Kevin Bacon.
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 2:10 pm
citizen makes a good point. It would be pretty easy to narrow down who people are on Archinect, especially if they leave a sizable e-ink paper trail. citizen, jla-x, apple chris, have you any shame? If not, then would you please just let us know your names? If the content of what you say is not offensive or shameful, then why would you remain anonymous?
What we DO KNOW about you after an hour's time on Archinect: Apple Chris:
1/He traveled to Alys Beach on a work trip. Given that he went State School, he prolly went to UofF.. F for Florida. and then GSD for grad school
2/He taught in architecture school and is quite disrespectful to his former students, whom he disparages. Probably some who are shouldering great debt from school.You're right, AC: they did overpay for your shitty teaching...
3/He and JLA-X have been buddies a while (they've commented on each other's posts for over a year. (JLA-X is an architect with at least 10 years experience under his belt, probably lives in NYC, was considering getting a GC license....he's way too old for this crap.)
jla-x
Member since Jun '11
Post History (87 total)
Comment History (6730 total)
Apple Chris
Member Since Feb'17
Post History (87 total)
Comment History (2879 total)
citizen has a shit ton posts too.
IF I SOUND ANGRY, it's because I AM angry, because you're dismissive of the very visceral pain of many women who have shared their stories about SAMs.
To be clear: If you continue to harass, naysay, belittle me or anyone on this Shitty Architecture Men post, we will continue to search until we are able to (more or less) identify you. Architecture is a small world. It's no longer acceptable to act this way.
Thanks.
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 2:18 pm
Oooh, do me next. Also, you got a bunch of those assumptions wrong.
randomised
Apr 13, 18 2:23 pm
Don't want to be rude here but it is people like you that make me prefer to remain anonymous. You just post a collage of men from an unsubstantiated unverifiable online source and think you're on some kind of crusade or something, glad I never was named for whatever reason, mostly because I'm a decent guy of course, but how would I defend myself against such behaviour? And why do you post anonymous yourself ;-)
citizen
Apr 13, 18 3:06 pm
Yikes! You might want to read what I actually wrote on that Google doodle post, and not what the following poster wrote.
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 3:34 pm
S
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 3:34 pm
S
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 3:34 pm
With please, non-seq. This is fun, like being a fortuneteller!
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 7:03 pm
Yeah, act irrational and expect people to blindly accept your credibility lmfao.
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 12:29 pm
The men in the photo collages are alphabetically listed, jla-x. They just happened to look fucking creepy!
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 12:33 pm
Some of them do look creepy, Lol
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 1:09 pm
To avoid getting lost in the shuffle, I will start a new thread.
Claim 3: We have had a talent drain for so so long, whereas other fields (Medicine, Law, etc etc) have managed to make their fields (somewhat) more inclusive. So, why is Architecture this last bastion of persistent Sexism, Misogyny, Racism, Classism, Homophobia...etc etc etc?
You're right, b3tadine[sutures], It's not the last or the first bastion. I need to be more accurate. Sexism, Misogyny, Racism, Classism, Homophobia (SMRCH for short) are entrenched culturally and systemically across many professions.
Also, your comment is very apt: "It may be that those other professions [ie Medicine, Law....] the economic costs are higher, and access to legal remedies are easily available." To build upon that idea--each profession possesses different tools and resources. We need to build upon our strengths and tools. As architects, we are trained to systematically build or dismantle anything. We learn to make lists, develop hierarchies, work our tails off, and create structures that have the power to impact many people, even entire civilizations.
The more and more I speak with current students, women who have been out in the field, the more I realize that SAM is not going anywhere. It will be built and nurtured, piece by piece. Gross offenses and misconduct that are verified and true need to be addressed IMMEDIATELY.
This is just the beginning of the conversation.
randomised
Apr 13, 18 2:08 pm
"This is just the beginning of the conversation."
Seems more like a monologue to me tbh.
WhistleBlower
Apr 13, 18 2:19 pm
You too, randomised. Would be fairly easy to identify you. You probably went to gsapp.
randomised
Member since Dec '07
Post History (1 total)
Comment History (2755 total)
James Aleister Barcelona
@randomised
“””1991”
Apr 13, 18 3:30 pm
Is this going to turn into another kozumelle? Anyone remember that
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 4:23 pm
Koz was awesome.
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 4:55 pm
The Australian? Haha
citizen
Apr 13, 18 5:01 pm
I've seen many references here over the years, but never have known the story...
“””1991”
Apr 13, 18 5:47 pm
I can’t remember exactly, but I might be confusing Koz with TAMMUZ
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 8:36 pm
Koz was spoiled Bahrain royalty attending GSD and complaining constantly about his Chinese classmates. He also claimed to have spent $20k of his parent's money to clean up his past social media stuff in order to gain better studio spots.
Suri and his Azure fantasy world, was an Australian student claimant to be architect savant. His drawings skills and mannerism were equal to that of a used condom.
Miles Jaffe
Apr 13, 18 10:21 pm
I miss suri ....
randomised
Apr 14, 18 5:58 am
What the fuck do you want from me whistleblower? Just because I don't follow you in your crusade that turns more and more into a Don Quixote kind of endeavour...you're pathetic! Go get a fuckin' life, going after anonymous archinect members only because they disagree with you, while hiding behind an anonymous account yourself, stupid hypocrite. And you call yourself a whistleblower, well you blow that's for sure...
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 13, 18 7:02 pm
It really is remarkable to watch men beat up on someone that's been through a particularly horrible experience.
Not in a good way.
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 13, 18 8:23 pm
Nice try Chris. I never wrote woman.
randomised
Apr 14, 18 6:04 am
Beat up on someone? Come on...they're out looking for a fight/confrontation themselves. Just because someone might have been sexually harassed or experienced sexual misconduct doesn't give them the right to be a fucking asshole to people who had totally nothing to do with that ordeal.
curtkram
Apr 13, 18 7:30 pm
we shouldn't be ok with colleagues who harass our coworkers. if there are firms that support or harbor this sort of behavior, we should encourage people to speak out against them. the firm probably has some sort of PR department to defend themselves if necessary (even if that role is taken by a sole proprietor). aside from that, those firms should be encouraged to get rid of the toxic leadership that's hurting them.
curtkram
Apr 14, 18 11:01 am
someone has to do it
citizen
Apr 13, 18 8:01 pm
The victimization and harassment of women and others by those in positions powerful enough to get away with it is deplorable and unconscionable.
The broadcasting of suspicions and hearsay, followed by reactionary dismissals and untethered calls for retribution against anyone voicing any disagreement whatsoever? Also deplorable.
The first is far worse. The second is tangential, but actually undermines the seriousness of the main problem, I'd argue.
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 8:05 pm
Well said
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 13, 18 8:12 pm
I'll say it again, and we all know this is the fucking truth, we're paid shit, we're struggling to make ends meet. Much of the #metoo movement has to do with women in various service industries, often non-citizens. N
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 13, 18 8:15 pm
People with not a lot of agency. Now, it may be that Hollywood women are getting photos taken for covers, are getting published, but they have agency, and wealth. AND, many of them have been, blackballed. What makes anyone think this won't happen if these women come out? That's the cost? Never working in the profession again? One of the assholes in that photo spread is a keynote at this year's conference? What about him?
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 8:42 pm
Citizen, stop it with the intelligent and rational point of view.
So you can’t argue/debate with people who are considered “down” whatever that means?
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 13, 18 9:39 pm
Punch down
The opposite of punch up - to make a joke at the expense of the less powerful or more oppressed group. A favorite technique of right-wing media pundits such as Rush Limbaugh.
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 9:44 pm
so, we have to treat women and minorities with kid gloves? What happened to equal treatment?
j-laxative, come on, just go ahead and say it already, we all know you do in the comfort of your living room. Say it.
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 13, 18 9:51 pm
Clown, you think the Constitution was written yesterday, and all "men were created equal" means what is written.
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 10:00 pm
I've never understood douchecanoe. Can someone mansplain the expression to me?
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 10:00 pm
I don’t know what you are talking about? Say what?
Donna Sink
Apr 13, 18 10:16 pm
beta, here's the thing: "punching down" is a valid concept that exists within the discussion of this issue. As is toxic masculinity. These terms are accepted within the lexicon. But people who don't want to acknowledge the problem refuse to admit those terms are already accepted because *they can't prop up their own point of view if they admit so*. It's like the famous Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." These guys' entire sense of self-worth depends on their not understanding/accepting that they have only achieved as much as they have due to systemic preferences that favor them and punish others.
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 13, 18 10:36 pm
Douchecanoe
It's a lightweight craft used by douches to move around on the figurative conversational currents to spread their message of doucheness to new individuals who were blissfully unaware of their existence. It also has cupholders, which is the only redeeming quality of the douchecanoe.
"Wow, did you hear what Jim had to say at the party last night?"
"Yeah, he came from nowhere on his douchecanoe and made everyone feel uncomfortable."
#douche#douchebag#douchery#douchedum#stupidity.
x-jla
Apr 13, 18 10:59 pm
I still don’t understand what punching” is I guess. Disagreement is now punching? I hear people say “we need to talk about...” and then when people talk it’s really “accept our narrative 100% or you are evil!”
x-jla
Apr 14, 18 12:57 pm
Dicks sporting goods carries them.
Donna Sink
Apr 13, 18 10:18 pm
whistleblower, you're being too harsh on citizen. He's a good guy, and while he and I do a lot of sexualized banter here on Archinect it's never non-consensual or bullying.
Donna Sink
Apr 13, 18 10:21 pm
Same with Non Sequitur. There are plenty of people here who have shown themselves to be not worth the waste of time it would take to explain things to them - Non Seq and citizen are not those guys; they're reasonable.
Non Sequitur
Apr 13, 18 10:33 pm
thanks Donna for the shout-out. I should add "reasonable guy" to my buisness card.
citizen
Apr 14, 18 12:49 am
Thanks for the support, Donna, though it seems sad that "please don't attack and threaten without cause" is controversial enough to need defending.
WhistleBlower
Apr 14, 18 7:38 am
Thank you Donna Sink, I stand corrected. I'll remove any criticism of citizen and Non Sequitor.
WhistleBlower
Apr 14, 18 7:43 am
Donna Sink, It doesn't seem possible to Edit or remove posts that I have made. However, in context, I can see why I drew the conclusions I had with them--I do see some taunting from them both, and solidarity with Apple Chris and jla-x, who have not been respectful.
x-jla
Apr 14, 18 2:00 pm
I asked a couple legit questions and disagreed on a few points. I seriously don’t understand how that is disrespectful. I poked fun a little after you went on the attack, but never intended to be mean spirited. If you bothered to look back, you would see that I mostly support the idea of a list. I also stated several times that I support your right to make one even if I disagree with the meshing of assault incidents with overall “shitty” behavior. I said a few times that the list is a modern tool of social consequences and empowerment. That was backed up by logic and reason in other threads as well.
I also challenged why that list is problematic on the Harvard thread when demanding that it be translated into action by administration. Any attorney or person with a slither of legal knowledge would tell you the same. I also tried to tease out the nuance of terms like “oppression” “ privilege” etc, because that’s extremely important to do. We have to frame our problems in reality and relative to the world or we can’t orient ourselves.
I’m just trying to discuss a topic and hash out the nuanced nature of it. Sometimes when we break things down, we have to say things that are politically incorrect to seek truth. I would hope that the pursuit of truth is the shared goal of all debates, regardless of the side you are arguing. People also sometimes argue to the extremes as a strategy to test ideas and challenge others, not out of ego, out of a desire to learn and teach. I personally enjoy debating because I learn from it in a way not all too different from a messy design process. If we can’t do that, debate becomes shallow, boring, and loses it’s function. That’s end game for society as far as I’m concerned. I encourage you to think about that. I also encourage you to view fellow debaters are sparring partners who share a mutualism rather then enemies engaging in warfare.
archanonymous
Apr 14, 18 2:04 pm
jla-x ++++++++++++
Donna Sink
Apr 14, 18 8:32 am
No worries, whistleblower. There’s a community of regulars here who are all smart-assey but generally respectful with each other, and there are regulars who are self-important bloviators (many would put me in this category TBH!).
It’s interesting to think of the dynamics of the forum in relation to the dynamics of a workplace. I have a casual rule that you can’t really understand a place or relationship until spending at least a year there, going through all the seasons and their concomitant typical changes of mood and focus. Maybe the simultaneous strength/flaw of architects is we’re trained to go into a situation and think we can immediately solve the problems of it. That IS the role we’re trained for! And while for me that means smushy emotional labor like listening, watching, meeting the client where they’re at, etc, for an older generation (and maybe for a certain contemporary group of architecture schools ) it means ignoring existing conditions and imposing a self-centered heroic viewpoint. It’s easy to see how someone who views the world as clay to be molded to their will would also view other humans as props to be manipulated - emotionally and physically - to their own ends.
I wonder what percentage of architects show clinically narcissistic tendencies?
x-jla
Apr 15, 18 1:43 pm
Well...assuming that’s true...then you have to ask whether narcissism determines success in the field and why...if you find that it does, then there is a possible correlation with the sex gap, because men have a much higher rate of narcissism according to psychological lit I’ve read.
x-jla
Apr 15, 18 1:48 pm
It’s also expressed differently. Why, who knows, maybe has to do with the fact that narcissism in men had a survival benefit (long ago), whereas in women it was detrimental to their ability to care for infants or something. Just a guess.
x-jla
Apr 15, 18 1:54 pm
But since you blocked me we will never know :(
archanonymous
Apr 14, 18 12:51 pm
This thread is terrifying.
On one hand you learn that a good portion of prominent men in the profession are total creeps, and in some cases, likely criminals.
On the other, you learn that debate about how to solve or ameliorate the underlying structural issues is, in many people's minds, not open to everyone, regardless of whether they are architects or not, or what the issues are.
Maybe it is enough to just say to the victims "we hear you and we understand your plight" but I'm with Donna - we are trained to be problem solvers, and that's what most of the discussion appears to be (barring a few intentionally malicious comments) no matter how immature or misdirected it seems.
This seems like it is part of living in an open and critical society where debate and discussion are encouraged. Any efforts to intimidate or stem such discussion are wrong and dangerous. (Debating whether this is MORE wrong and dangerous than.the abuse itself is misdirection and disctraction) These structural inequalities will persist as long as the debate and discussion is limited to only part of the stakeholders, either through traditional patriarchal structures (no abuse to see here, carry on!) or through the emergent dynamics of mob justice against anyone who cares wade into the debate with less than cutting-edge ideas (cis white men can never understand, and despite what they may think, they are all the enemy!)
b3tadine[sutures]
Apr 14, 18 4:42 pm
You had to bring Kevin Spacey into it, didn't you? j/k
WhistleBlower
Apr 15, 18 6:03 am
Well putC
WhistleBlower
Apr 15, 18 6:07 am
Well put, archanonymous. It reminds me of a lecture
WhistleBlower
Apr 15, 18 6:26 am
series by legendary Herbie Hancock. I went with a colleague of mine from architecture school. We were over the moon about it, we were so awestruck by the depth and beauty of his talks. After one of the lectures, we ran into a mentor-y "wise old man" type (also an archetype in Jungian psychology--https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wise_old_man), who was a Fellow at our University. He put a damper on our joy--saying that he found it not rigorous, deep nor intellectual enough.
I realize now why he got this wrong. He was not aware that HH was able to put in clear English concepts and philosophy accessible to the newbie, and radiating in wisdom to the most seasoned. He mistook clarity and passion as simple and naive.
All this to say archanonymous that we need to include all the voices re: SAM, from the newbie amateur to the Zaha-Hadids of the field (she would have a TON to comment on re: SAM, btw!!)
I am seasoned in activism and campaigning, and (mark my words Apple-hotpocket Chrissy) I think that we are 1/only at the beginning. 2/The SAM and TimesUp and MeToo will send massive tremors thru design professions--it will never be the same again, and that is a very very good thing.
Also, please DM me if you'd like to join an online forum to discuss SAM with also including some journalists who are writing critically about SAM and want to do some heavy-lifting to get this all to the next level.
Cheers all!
“””1991”
Apr 15, 18 9:20 am
“It’s not my duty as an architect” - Zaha Hadid
WhistleBlower
Apr 15, 18 9:41 am
HA! If you knew her personally, Zaha was a complex, incredible and generous person. Her words were taken out of context. It's not an architect's duty nor part of the professional code of conduct to be responsible for what happened at that museum. She was stating that it's not her duty to be held to a different standard of comportment because she's a woman architect. Women want to be known as ARCHITECTS, not women architects. It's an important distinction, just like Rock is different from Roll, and Rick is different that Regina.
“””1991”
Apr 15, 18 9:44 am
Museum?
randomised
Apr 15, 18 1:32 pm
Pfffft, you want to include all the voices in the debate, but the moment there's a voice that doesn't sing to your beat, you lose your shit and make it personal and go ad hominem. Good luck with dealing with people who write critically about whatever, you do know what 'critically' means I hope ;) critically/ˈkrɪtɪkli/
adverb
1. in a way that expresses disapproval.
2. in a way that expresses or involves an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art.
3. to a potentially disastrous degree.
I replied to your previous post, not to this Zaha saga, that's why I respond to the words critically, debate and all the voices etc...do you even know/remember/realise what you yourself write down? Apparently not.
Thanks ransomised, I stand corrected again by you.
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 6:27 am
Pfffft, you want to include all the voices in the debate, but the ...."moment there's a voice that doesn't sing to your beat, you lose your shit and make it personal and go ad hominem. Good luck with dealing with people who write critically about whatever, you do know what 'critically' means I hope ;) "
critically/ˈkrɪtɪkli/
adverb
1. in a way that expresses disapproval.
2. in a way that expresses or involves an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art.
3. to a potentially disastrous degree.
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 6:30 am
Ok now, randomised, since you want me to respond to your past comment, here it goes: Thank you for providing me the definition of critically. I agree that "You express disapproval ... to a potentially disastrous degree." Actually, SAM is not about nitpicking the details of women and men's accounts of misconduct in Architecture. It's about realizing that many practices in the field of Architecture are not helpful towards realizing our best work, nor retaining talent.
randomised
Apr 16, 18 7:21 am
"Actually, SAM is not about nitpicking the details of women and men's accounts of misconduct in Architecture."
It exactly IS about that.
"It's about realizing that many practices in the field of Architecture are not helpful towards realizing our best work, nor retaining talent."
No it is not, it is about so-called shitty men, it says NOTHING about not realising our best work, it might even help producing the best works of some of the people on that list, did you analyse the works of those on the list, Pritzkers are won with those alleged shitty attitudes and behaviours. All you are doing is mere projection, nothing more.
It's business not occupational therapy, you know.
x-jla
Apr 15, 18 4:47 pm
“Vote for Hillary or you are sexist!!”
“Love Zaha unconditionally or you are sexist!”
“Agree with me 100% or you are sexist!”
See the trend? How can equal treatment be possible when equal criticism is sexist? Equality works on the positive and negative end. This is one of many logical inconsistencies on the left/feminist platform. To suggest that doesn’t have real effects on men is also very dishonest. It affects the way men are overwhelmingly punished harsher for the same crimes, women usually win divorce and custody, and the reason a women can slap/hit a man and not be looked down upon for it. Not whining just saying. I honestly don’t believe that 100% equal treatment is possible/desirable because we are very different. Equal opportunity IS possible though, and equal rights certainly are too. This is why I am pounding the idea that the best we can do as a society, without heavy tyrannical controls on behavior, and without making life boring and dull, is to ensure the equal rights and liberties of the individual, and allow culture and social behaviors to adapt to that naturally as they have. Does that mean that we have to accept a certain degree of sexism and inequality? Of course we do. It doesn’t mean that it is right, and it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try better as individuals, but it’s ridiculous to think that 100% of sexism or offensive behavior can be squeezed out of society with force. We can’t sterilize society without huge consequences. We can’t protect ourselves 100% from disease without living in a plastic bubble for example. We can’t eradicate crime without a tyrannical police state. It’s not possible. See the JRE Pod cast with Bret Weinstein and Heather Hynes where they talk about diminishing returns and the impossibility of 100% outcomes. So with that, how much sexualized behavior are you willing to accept in the workplace/school? What about a person respectfully flirting with a coworker? What about a person asking someone to have lunch? The boundaries are not well-defined, men and women read things differently, and who defines the boundaries? Do men have a say?If not, why? These are all important questions. For instance, when a women says she doesn’t want a present for her birthday, you better buy a fuckin present from my experience. When a man says he’s tired, it’s usually a nice way of saying he wants to be left alone. What I’m saying is, male female communication has never been straight forward. So, how does that “language” barrier get bridged? Besides the obvious stuff, how do we address the more innocent grey area stuff? Where is the line? I think we will find that it’s where John Stuart Mill said that it was.
x-jla
Apr 15, 18 5:16 pm
To clarify, men treat other men like shit. Women don't want to be treated "equally." The word equal is used very loosely. You don't want us making fun of your hair, mom, etc like we (many of us) do to each other. Women want to be treated better than men which is what we generally already do in most cases. Correct? Ok, that said (excuse me if I don't say this correctly/clearly) can that "special" treatment be interpreted to be sexist? Or, is the goal that men start acting more like neutral and not make fun of other mens hair, mom, etc in your presence? If so, isn't that kind of gender authoritarian for a lack of better words?
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 6:30 pm
jla, to start off:
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 6:54 pm
bah. that was a great long post to reply to all of jla's ranting, but i clicked a button wrong. i'll try again.
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 6:55 pm
.
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 6:58 pm
if you hear people calling you sexist with some frequency, it's probably not because the other person is left/feminist. it would be worthwhile to look within yourself to see why they see that. i'm sure you don't intend to say anything sexist, but sometimes the message you intend to convey isn't interpreted the way you want.
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 7:01 pm
enter isn't creating a line break...
as to whether men have a say, sure they do. if you're in a work environment where you have to relate to other people and someone is creating a toxic environment that makes you depressed or uncomfortable to the point of losing productivity, you should have an HR resource or management to turn to. if they can't fix the problem, you may end up having to quit for your own health and well being. if you're leaving because of a toxic environment, more than likely there will be a few people leaving. often that ends up hurting everyone.
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 7:05 pm
as to your boundary questions, the important thing to understand is that you can't tell other people how to feel. everyone is different, so there isn't going to be a clear instruction book on how to act. if someone gets offended when you ask them to lunch, don't ask them to lunch. if someone likes it when you ask them to lunch, then go ahead and ask them to lunch.
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 7:10 pm
you seem to operate with this idea that if you don't intend to offend someone, they shouldn't be offended. sort of like you have a set of expectations and rules that other people should accept. that doesn't work. when you ask someone to lunch and you notice by what they say, or whatever sort of body language they're giving off, that they're offended, don't get mad at them for not fitting into your rules. this is where you need to practice empathy, listen, and try to understand them. when you get mad or frustrated because maybe you don't know how to act or you don't know why they're upset, you make things much worse. accept that it's ok for them to not want to go to lunch. don't tell them they shouldn't be offended. don't tell them they should want to go to lunch with you. don't tell them how to feel.
x-jla
Apr 15, 18 7:36 pm
Personally I understand that, and no one has ever called me sexist in my real life, I’m actually very polite and shy in real life, just talking about the general objective line between being on an “asshole” list and not.
x-jla
Apr 15, 18 7:45 pm
I understand your subjective claim, but intent does matter. Now, if someone is a complete bull in a china shop and just doesn’t get it that they are offensive, then it’s probably their fault, but in the “normal” spectrum the line is also blurred and I’d say intent becomes more important than interpretation. Does that make sense? For instance, if I say “hey curt how are you” and you say “wtf do you mean by that!” Then intent certainly overrides feelings. So my point is, the line between men and women in the normal spectrum is blurred. Obviously running around with your hand on your crotch and cat calling is objectively wrong even if the person is mental and has no ill intentions. But, kissing someone on the cheek for example when saying hello can be blurry depending on culture, upbringing, personality, etc. The obvious stuff is clear to a normal person, the other stuff can get a normal person in trouble depending on who is on the receiving end of the the gesture. Make sense?
x-jla
Apr 15, 18 7:48 pm
So, where is the line where we say, “stop being so sensitive?” To put it bluntly. There must be a line somewhere right? We can’t leave everything to interpretation as the post modernist would have it...
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 8:39 pm
it's entirely about the emotions. you created the catalyst that caused me to get upset. i get that you didn't mean to, but you did. what's important is what you do once you realize you upset me. when you say it wasn't your intent to upset me, you're saying it's my fault i'm upset, which is more or less telling me how i'm supposed to feel. that just makes things worse for both of us. i don't know your intent, and you don't know why i'm upset. that's where empathy comes in. you could try to find out why i'm upset, or just say 'sorry' and walk away. in the long run, not turning it into a battle about who's right or justified with their 'intent' will let us both get over it faster. this is how to deal with the gray areas. it's ok to make mistakes and push someone's boundaries a bit past what they're comfortable with. how you handle that is what matters. respect the boundary, say your sorry, and more than likely you can both move on. if you tell me my feelings shouldn't matter because of your intent, it will be harder and take longer to get over it.
x-jla
Apr 16, 18 12:07 am
Ok, I get what you are saying. So with a social situation regarding some of the more “grey” areas I would agree that a 2-way exchange/communication is sufficient. But when some behavior causes someone to be labeled and punished intent matters. Let’s stick with the “shitty men” label for now. “Shitty” is a category that puts ones integrity into question, so the intent has direct bearing on their moral compass. What if a person from another culture offends by simply following his cultural norms? What if an Italian man kisses a women he first meets and she gets so offended that she puts him on that list? Does he really deserve to be labeled shitty for doing what he’s done his entire life? What about an older NYer who makes crude jokes at a party or yells and curses during a review? Is his culture any less valid? When in Rome, ok, but who decides what the rules of Rome are in such a diverse society?
I think we have to accept a certain degree of offense just like we have to accept a certain degree of risk in life. We can’t react to every slight of tongue, bad joke, and goofy gesture, and we can’t expect others to completely bend to our every feeling.
curtkram
Apr 16, 18 8:21 pm
i don't think those strawman scenarios exist. if you just try to be a decent person, you won't have to worry so much about someone labeling you as a shitty person. if you are labeled as a shitty person, it might be helpful to think through why, without blaming the people who think you're shitty. don't worry about the italian guy. if he tries to kiss you, back away. hopefully he has the social awareness and empathy to not act like the sort of person who gets labeled as shitty. if so, he can apologize and move on without blaming you for how you feel, and without making a big deal of his faux pas.
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 7:16 pm
if you're not able to empathize, listen to others, and try to understand them, then you're probably not going to operate well in a team environment. when you get mad and frustrated at people for not behaving the way you want them to, they're going to start mirroring that frustration and pretty soon you have a team of unhappy and unproductive people just being mad at each other. you end up creating the toxic environment (not in a sexual harassment way, but in a general 'bad feelings' way). if this happens, ultimately you'll have to be removed from the group so the group can be productive.
curtkram
Apr 15, 18 8:39 pm
if you can't function in the environment you're in, i think you have to change your environment.
randomised
Apr 16, 18 3:06 am
Agreed, especially us architects can propose changes to a "toxic" environment. I change environments for a living ;)
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 6:23 am
Curtkram, it's very simple. These are creatures who have adapted and thrive in toxic environments:
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 6:24 am
And this fella:
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 7:46 am
Yep. Basically these twerps can sniff out vulnerable (oft female) targets and attack and vent deep seeded anger. However, I fear that many of these little f#$@ers also become instructors and even tenured faculty at universities because they're support rung-by-rung by little twerps who evolve to be big twerps. Donna Sink commented earlier about Narcissistic syndrome in Architecture...I think myths of lone genius as supported/corroborated by Ayn Rand help lead to this faulty mindset.
Non Sequitur
Apr 16, 18 8:31 am
I'm offended by Danny Devito being included in this. That man is a legend.
Non Sequitur
Apr 16, 18 9:45 am
pistols at dawn
Donna Sink
Apr 17, 18 12:00 pm
whistleblowingarchitect, Ayn Rand deserves a HUGE portion of the blame for why there are so many jerky architects: fuck The Fountainhead.
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 16, 18 10:18 am
We know women leave this industry. How many left because of a toxic (sexual, narcissistic, disordered, abusive) work environment? That is what the polls we get every once in awhile should be asking. It’s why I left every job. Taking care of kids or elders is a cover-up. Kids in school say they are going to be the great one that isn’t going to suffer like those they see in the profession but they assume a lot, that there is no toxic soup, that it is just about them and their abilities and determination but it isn’t. It’s about the toxic environment. You can have a well formed seed but it needs good soil to grow in.
x-jla
Apr 16, 18 10:45 am
Ive worked on my own for a while, last job/internship the guy was a complete fuck and I couldn’t stand being there, now when I collaborate with architects I can definitely see that most firms are terrible places to work. I always think that if my business went under and I needed to get a 9-5 Id work at any old job before an architecture firm. So I’ve asked the question like 10 times and no one has answered...Do you think that given that reality, idp/axp is contributing to the problem by giving these firms control over someone’s ability to get a license/practice with autonomy?
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 16, 18 10:54 am
Yes, I do. I'm self-employed and doing ok, I think about applying to firms sometimes but I just can't do it. It's too bad because I want to work with other people, work on bigger projects, I just can't. But I don't think it's me that's the problem. Anyone experience the same (male or female)? I know several people personally that say the same.
x-jla
Apr 16, 18 12:04 pm
Would you say that you are introverted or extroverted? I always score pretty highly introverted on those tests...I’d say that probably has something to do with my not wanting to deal with office politics. I like working with people, but only cool people...lol
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 16, 18 12:10 pm
Introverted with an extroverted side. 80-90% of the people in firms are great too, but that toxic 10-20% is the drinkers, druggies, molesters, personality disordered, or even just terribly disorganized/secretly imcompetent and lacking awareness of it.
x-jla
Apr 16, 18 12:14 pm
Would you say that the 10-20% finds their way to the top positions easier for some reason? Kinda like how politicians suck because sucky people are drawn to power...
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 16, 18 12:19 pm
It's like we share a brain. -- edit, part of a brain. ha ha
archi_dude
Apr 16, 18 12:22 pm
Jlax to your idp question I’d say yes. The one factor that kept me from switching to construction was loss aversion of idp credits and more broadly feeling as though I should finish out my arch license before quitting. When I completed idp it really felt like this freedom of options opened up.
archi_dude
Apr 16, 18 12:33 pm
I had someone refuse to sign like 1000 hrs of mine. He “didn’t trust signing up for any more government stuff.”
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 1:14 pm
he he I know someone who inflated hours so that they would at least get more than 50% counted b/c they filed more than 6 months afterwards...CRAPPY NCARB. #allwhitemen with a couple of women hangin' in there, perhaps leanin' in there by the way, if you've ever been to an NCARB summit: https://www.ncarb.org/press/ncarb-installs-fy15-board-directors
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 11:10 am
Yep. I am thankfully in a wonderful environment but you have to really look under every rock and tree of an office and sniff out hints of toxicity. For example: I interviewed at Annabelle Seldorf's so long ago that risk of them knowing who I am is slim to none. I was needing to use the facilities before my interview. I walked by the rows and rows of desks and it was dead quiet--I felt like I was walking on eggshells. In the bathroom, the atmosphere with gorgeous integrated sinks within honed carrara marble was completely ruined by an off-white label printed out from one of those labeling machines: "Wipe bowl after use." Where are we again? are we in a fucking airplane bathroom?!? I hate when they ask you to wipe down bowl after fucking use, because it's not ever fucking clean nor dry when we go inside. Anyways--I head into the Conference Room where this meanie guy looks at my portfolio then brandishes technical terms like RCP and how one fucking idiot didn't know what RCP meant in an interview. And how with my Rhino skills, I could expect to earn $45K. _To_live_in_NYC. I then never heard from them again. Do you think it's because I said he resembled Mr. Penguin? I don't want to insult Danny DeVito....
Non Sequitur
Apr 16, 18 11:31 am
Top right box is me, always.
senjohnblutarsky
Apr 16, 18 11:47 am
That's because the top right is correct. And anyone who disagrees is welcome to wipe with pine cones at my house.
x-jla
Apr 16, 18 12:00 pm
That graphic is awesome. My kids do the bottom left thing all the time and it drives me nuts. I’m gonna show it to them later. Haha
randomised
Apr 16, 18 12:03 pm
Everyone knows the correct placement of the roll is on top of the handle of the faucet.
bowling_ball
Apr 16, 18 5:25 pm
I'm top right. But it's interesting - the original patent drawings show top left. So I've clearly been doing it wrong my whole life.
joseffischer
Apr 17, 18 5:25 pm
We've received multiple emails (only the guys) about not using the one unisex restroom near the lobby as it's predominantly for clients and someone can't aim and refuses to clean up after themselves. I joked to my boss about the email being sexist, and did not receive a laugh. *shrug* The email was actually the first time I learned of the bathroom, as it's sort of around the corner and looks like a closet door.
joseffischer
Apr 17, 18 5:31 pm
We also have a running chuckle in the office about how the guys restroom is not sized to code. The 2 urinals and lavs are too close together and there isn't an accessible stall. A senior partner was in charge of the reno before I got here. After working on said partner's jobs a few times, and complaining about the restroom, one of the people in my bay said "well take it up with (name removed) if you don't like it" and everything was clear to me.
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 11:12 am
Oh god, no....NO! Archinect: Is Penguin wearing elevator shoes? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
archi_dude
Apr 16, 18 12:13 pm
It’s interesting how the conversation has shifted to one about the general toxic environments found in architecture for male and female. I’m in a similar situation as tintt said above. I have my license and am thinking of working for myself. I don’t particularly want to but my firm is experiencing layoffs and reading job postings of “must really enjoy working in a fast pace environment on quick deadlines.” Translation, do the job of two people on under budget badly scheduled projects. I just can’t bring myself to work in another place like that for 50-60k. Right now the options are try my own thing or just say screw it and look at project engineer positions. And same with whistleblower, you really do have to look under every rock to find a good situation. It made sense in the recession but now? We supposedly care about creating great spaces for people but why not ourselves?
Donna Sink
Apr 17, 18 12:04 pm
Exactly where I was hoping this conversation would go: to the general air of toxicity in so many architecture firms, which can also be traced back to the abusive nature of architecture school.
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 1:17 pm
What are the chances that the NCARB Board of Directors have ever: 1/Been a single parent trying to study for AREs while juggling a 60+ hour/week work schedule? 2/Struggled with anxiety and depression from above work conditions? 3/Barely been able to make ends meet with rent since they are paid shit by FAIA bosses? #allwhitemen with a couple of women hangin' in there, perhaps even leanin' in there. https://www.ncarb.org/press/ncarb-installs-fy15-board-directors
archi_dude
Apr 16, 18 1:23 pm
I think if you want to get more people on your side you can’t make sexist and racist generalizations.
Non Sequitur
Apr 16, 18 1:24 pm
I'm actually more upset by the man in the bottom row, center, who was asked to turn slightly instead of facing the camera head-on (like the those above). It really messes up the chi of the picture.
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 16, 18 1:43 pm
This is not the current board.
x-jla
Apr 16, 18 1:57 pm
archi-dude+++ I was with you until you turned it into an evil white men thing. You can’t get anywhere if you alienate 90% of the profession based on their race and sex. As far as race goes, I’d be very happy to see more blacks represented, but we also have to understand the reality that a 50/50 expectation is the wrong metric. Blacks only make up 13% of the population, of that %, how many are of a working age? Of that % how many have a college education? So, these issues require greater depth of research. That’s really my main complaint with these claims. If we make assumptions based on how white a photo looks, we are creating a skewed narrative.
x-jla
Apr 16, 18 1:59 pm
Those are some white looking mofos though...jkjk
x-jla
Apr 16, 18 2:08 pm
To your points 1,2,and 3, chances are slim to none that they have even considered the difficulty of real life, and the idea that idp isn’t all merit based but heavily circumstantial. I’ve said it before....If a govt mandated barrier gives benefit to those with economic privilege, don’t be surprised when the end demographics reflect privilege.
randomised
Apr 16, 18 2:13 pm
More recent grads in boards of directors!!!!!!111!1!
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 16, 18 2:33 pm
!!1!!!1!!!!1
randomised
Apr 16, 18 3:08 pm
'Multiple exclamation marks,' he went on, shaking his head, 'are a sure sign of a diseased mind.' -- in Eric
'Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.' -- in Reaper Man
'And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head.' -- in Maskerade
#MeToo nonsequitur. And where's the American Flag lapel? What country are we in?? #MakeArchitectureGreatAgain
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 2:12 pm
Current board is somewhere buried on internet. Can someone pls send us or post current pic? Happy to see that it takes 12.5 fucking years to cross finish line. I thought it was 12.8....
archanonymous
Apr 17, 18 9:06 am
edit, wrong spot.
archanonymous
Apr 17, 18 9:07 am
edit, wrong spot.
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 2:15 pm
Not sure what race or gender these folks are, anyone know? Emil Lorch. Arthur Peabody. A.M. Edelman. Mellen Greeley. C. J. “Pat” Paderewski. Dean L. Gustavson. Daniel Boone. E. G. Hamilton. Lorenzo D. Williams. Ballard Kirk, FAIA. Robert L. Tessier. George Terrien, NCARB. Herbert P. McKim. Harry G. Robinson. Darrell L. Smith. Ann R.
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 2:20 pm
Happy to see that it takes 12.5 fucking years to cross finish line of licensure. I thought it was 12.8...
Non Sequitur
Apr 16, 18 2:28 pm
yeah, your american system needs some tweaking. I wrote my exams and got licensed under 4y from graduation... just past my 29th birthday.
randomised
Apr 16, 18 2:37 pm
That's the average, so that includes all the lazy bastards (m/f/etc.) too ;)
Non Sequitur
Apr 16, 18 3:11 pm
I hear ya rando, I could have shaved off nearly 8months had I got my act together earlier. 8-)
randomised
Apr 16, 18 3:29 pm
Certainly, all that lazing about.
archanonymous
Apr 17, 18 9:08 am
I am curious, how would one balance the requirements of public safety - where lives are on the line - with that of addressing potential structural inequality propagated through licensing requirements? The latter is not a life/death situation, though it is urgent, while the former (the reason for our licensing requirements) is what leads to things like 80 people dying in a mall fire happening in Russia, not here.
archanonymous
Apr 17, 18 9:09 am
I would favor more stringent licensing requirements than what we have now, with other simultaneous approaches to address inequality and structural racism. As is, we are talking about tearing down the profession instead of building it up so everyone can be better.
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 2:25 pm
Apple don't get cheeky on me again. I gotta get back to my revit model now. Ciao till later.
randomised
Apr 16, 18 3:09 pm
Your revit model? You mean the revit model owned by that old white guy that pays your salary ;)
randomised
Apr 17, 18 8:50 am
The model is a product that's made with tools so it can be owned, and so can the tools, they're owned and licensed too.
randomised
Apr 18, 18 3:48 pm
I thought revit was all about family values.
WhistleBlower
Apr 16, 18 10:16 pm
lol okkeeee you got me. Randomised how did you know who pays my salary?!
Chrissy Apple Cheek, FAIA LEED BD + C, sounds like just the right approach--don't assume they know anything! Instead good hires are fast learners and worker bees. Why some architects try to make architecture seem mysterious, full of intrigue, and out of reach, is beyond me.
Non Sequitur
Apr 16, 18 10:23 pm
That's Sir Chrissy Apple. Don't forget that he's been knighted by the Queen on two separate occasions.
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 16, 18 10:41 pm
Queen Latifah?
Non Sequitur
Apr 16, 18 10:56 pm
Freddie Mercury. That's the only Queen that has ever mattered.
Wilma Buttfit
Apr 16, 18 11:24 pm
Nothing really matters toooo me.
WhistleBlower
Apr 17, 18 1:08 pm
Moi Aussi. Mwaaah ooohhhhsiiii. Actually French women would be surprisingly sympathetic with a few folks like archi-dude.
WhistleBlower
Apr 17, 18 1:08 pm
Love your knew title Chrissy! I thought Archinect usernames were ironclad, stamped on at birth. I'm gonna change my name too.
x-jla
Apr 18, 18 4:57 pm
English was invented by the cis white patriarchy...so bad grammar is a revolutionary act or something.
x-jla
Apr 18, 18 7:37 pm
Eat a tide pod and get with the times bro!
WhistleBlower
Apr 17, 18 1:10 pm
Ok...WolfWhistleBlowingArchitect is my new name, clipped since Archinect usernames are capped to 25 characters. how does that sound to everyone?
randomised
Apr 17, 18 1:22 pm
Nobody gives a damn
WhistleBlower
Apr 17, 18 11:59 pm
Oh shut up will you randomised. go back to big ben. I was rifting on apple chris, and not addressing you.
randomised
Apr 18, 18 4:06 am
"how does that sound to everyone?"
randomised
Apr 18, 18 4:15 am
So blowfish, all you do is seek attention and approval, I smell a diaper full of daddy issues here. And why do you need to drag Ben into this, leave him alone!
WhistleBlower
Apr 18, 18 12:05 am
You know, I don't think this Forum has anything left to say. The few men still standing don't even know what to say next, and we're all just kinda awkwardly standing here, looking down at our toes. Donna Sink, is there a way to put this Forum to bed/shift to another Forum?
randomised
Apr 18, 18 4:17 am
You keep on replying and posting, if you simply shut up this thread would gently sink into oblivion and we all could move on with other things, maybe a tip. Weren't you creating another forum or something to discuss shitty men, what's taking you so long or keeping you here?
Donna Sink
Apr 18, 18 3:05 pm
I think you're doing fine here, Wolf. You've got some regulars in a tizzy, and that's a good thing!
WhistleBlower
Apr 19, 18 5:56 pm
Heh! Thanks Sir Apple (we're forever bonded) As for you randomised....Grr you push my buttons. HA! sounds like feeling's mutual.
WhistleBlower
Apr 19, 18 5:57 pm
Who wants to meet me on Pornhub? Is there an architecture feed? Oh wait....architects don't have sex/fun/videogames.
randomised
Apr 20, 18 3:10 am
Don't flatter yourself...
Donna Sink
Apr 18, 18 3:15 pm
Referencing Wolf's post above about putting this thread to rest: it doesn't matter either way. This conversation (meaning this cultural shift) is SO much bigger than this thread on this website or even within this discipline. Other websites - Twitter & Jezebel are the two I'm on mainly - are talking about #metoo a lot, there are podcasts and talk shows....make no mistake, haters, this *is* a cultural shift! Come along or get left behind,as the saying goes (I say this from my desk where I am kicking and screaming to not have to succumb to the inevitable and learn $*&!ing Revit LOL).
There is an article today about Louis CK's possibilities for making a comeback. I LOVE Louis CK's humor and social commentary; he's been one of my favorites for a long while and his influence on humor is magnificent. I'm heartbroken to lose his presence and for such a stupid fucking gross reason. But does he *need* to be granted a comeback? Is it inevitable? I'm fine if the answer is no.
I'd say Richard Meier won't get a second chance. He'll take his six months off then retire. His firm will continue on, maybe change their name slightly, which is fine. Some people named on the list may miss out on an opportunity, or some others may *get* an opportunity from it, we don't know. But the conversation about this already exists, in schools and in professional practice, and the next time some self-proclaimed artiste in our field has a pen-throwing temper tantrum in the office and scares all the interns hopefully a few of them will feel emboldened to get up and say "I call bullshit and I'm out". That's a good change!
Miles Jaffe
Apr 18, 18 7:08 pm
Dickhard Meier Assoc.
WhistleBlower
Apr 19, 18 5:53 pm
Someone (won't say who) felt sad / thought maybe harsh that RM is called the "Harvey Weinstein of Architecture." Do you think he:
WhistleBlower
Apr 19, 18 5:53 pm
1/Thinks RM ain't that bad or
WhistleBlower
Apr 19, 18 5:54 pm
2/There's going to be an even BIGGER douchebag about to be exposed? If so, I'm getting popcorn.
WhistleBlower
Apr 19, 18 5:58 pm
Thank you Donna Sink. You're a wonderful moderator. you're not afraid to check bad behavior or overstepping boundaries. Good clean fun, right?
WhistleBlower
Apr 19, 18 5:59 pm
Love Louis CK too. Much different level of abuse than say, Cosby. Seems truly repentant too.
I sincerely doubt that I, an old woman in this field, would see any surprises on this rumored spreadsheet, but I still kinda want to see it.
https://www.fastcodesign.com/9...
Sorry to bump this thread, but I feel the need to make absolutely clear that I am not affiliated with any of the other posters with the partial name Pete. I think I may have to change aliases after this farce.
or you could just shut the fuck up
Just realised that Richard Meier got his Pritzker in 1984, that year from the George Orwell novel, for the motion picture 1984 Eurythmics made the soundtrack, track no.2 Sexcrime (1984):
Sex crime, crime Can I take this for granted
With your eyes over me?
In this place, this wintery home
I know there's always someone in
Sex crime, sex crime
Nineteen eighty four
Nineteen eighty four
And so I face the wall
Turn my back against it all
How I wish I'd been unborn
Wish I was unliving here
Sex crime, sex crime
Sex crime, sex crime
Nineteen eighty four
Nineteen eighty four
I'll pull the bricks down
One by one
Leave a big hole in the wall
Just where you are looking in
Sex crime, sex crime
Nineteen eighty four
Nineteen eighty four
Nineteen eighty four
“One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.”
I am super grateful I don't work and never worked at a place that has such shitheads.
looks at the spreadsheet. Finds current and former coworkers on the list.
Well then. I'll just let the door hit my ass on the way out.
Sorry R.
E.g.?
Well I seem to be the last person to find out about this, is it still possible to get the link to the sheet?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/140sRIqK3D4IIcH33nrn3V7VENncfCQ1gFlu-1fIYltM/edit#gid=0
I checked, couldn't find any Arif Javed on that list :)
I had a male colleague who refused to work on a project I was leading because he "didn't take instruction from women." He was fired not long after.
it was a christian thing
i pray for his wife
Guess new grads have to settle with designing Chili's and drab office parks if they want to avoid toxic power dynamics...maybe.
what else are new grads going to do?
Chili's and drab office parks comprise most of the profession. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
I've been tracking the document as many of you have, consider the documents as you would consider a construction document set, redlines are going to occur, the project managers are making decisions.
Can I say I don't have concerns? For the most part I don't, I am a bit concerned about what one's expectations are about a rigorous studio environment in a university setting is, and whether or not that should carry over to a professional environment. I'm also concerned about dead people on the list.
I was surprised to see Vitruvius on the list. But the accuser has a point. 10 books on Architecture are really 10 sexual innuendos.
#vitruvianSAM
Misspellings aside, it seems like there is one figure that stands out from the rest, with mipultiple accounts of student/intern chasing that seems especially distressing given his stature in the media — can’t imagine how discouraging that kind of culture must be for a young architect when they are treated so poorly.
But like I said before, minus a few exceptions, this list also seems to be the least talented media-darlings. Media needs to rediscover the joy of architecture rather than prop up douchey design-bros.
Really great idea to give them power over the licensing of the interns.
This came across my feed. Seems relevant. I might try being a man for a few days.
Thanks for the pointers.
I cant wait to make a Shitty Women in X field list.
Get to it you hump.
Hey there SAM-list,
Firstly, thank you Donna Sink for your creating this forum. Who knew that it would create such controversy!
I'm the Original Poster who had their leg (actually--knee) touched.
I'll tell you the reasons why I posted the leg incident:
"Touching my leg" captures with precise detail an action that is part of a spectrum of harassment by people in power to people. The power of these subtle actions are that they fly under the radar. Would touching my leg hold up in a court of law? No, of course not. Did he do behavior that in professional settings would be deemed completely inappropriate? Of course.
With SAM: All of a sudden, the tables have turned, and the actions of perpetrators are under a microscope: no perpetrator is potentially spared a listing on SAM.
Shame is not a powerful motivator. Fear is a powerful motivator. SAM and #MeToo all of a sudden makes harassment unsavory. We are all rightfully, men and women, stirred. And many men (and some women) in architecture will be afraid for the rest of their lives that they will end up on a list like SAM.
There are men on that list, rapists, that are actively working in various aspects of the profession, and are doing so with impunity. That in and of itself is horrible.
I do have a question for you, and one that has been more open to debate, how do you feel about the inclusion of those - men and women - individuals that run a particularly difficult, or what may be perceived as a toxic studio culture inside the schools? I'm not talking about a misogynistic culture, but one not as nurturing as they expected? Should those people be included - given that I understand the list is, was, titled "Shitty Men in Architecture", and shitty doesn't have to necessarily mean assault, misogyny, harassment.
Toxic studio culture I see as an off-gassing of Shitty Architecture Men. Some SAMs also are sexual harassers. Some are not. I've been treated absolutely POSITIVELY horribly by SAMs who weren't interested in me sexually/didn't sexually harass me since they hated me. (I'm considered an attractive woman--so go figure...)
Also: SAMs who sexually harass are shrewd at figuring out who they can fuck with/who is vulnerable. So that's why some women/men post in SAM with "I never experienced this behavior..." That is EXACTLY the point--SAMs get where they are through being consummate charmers. They are very manipulative.
There's a COPY of the SAM circulating online until SAM returns.
anyone have a link to the copy?
Says to email [email protected], that's how I got it.
I have a question: SAMs seem to infiltrate every level of being an Architect--from the Academy through the profession. So I wonder:
Last? I don't think that it's the last, nor the first. I think that we haven't heard lists of other fields doesn't mean that lists don't exist. It may be that those other professions the economic costs are higher, and access to legal remedies are easily available.
"What do SAMs have in common with Harvey Weinsteins/sexual harassers in other fields?" Toxic Masculinity.
To number 3, what evidence do you have to support that claim?
Also, what are your thoughts on the role of mandatory prolonged internships?
https://www.beckersasc.com/gastroenterology-and-endoscopy/male-female-active-physicians-70-statistics-by-specialty.html Break down in medical field, notice the huge variation in the different specialties...is this being governed sexism or differences in interests or both?
I would say anything that constantly reinforces gender normative dogma, is by its very nature, toxic.
Apple, it’s when normative boy behavior is systematically suppressed with psychotropic drugs.
*By female teachers who talk about th non existence of gender norms but believe the traits that females generally have are the norm.
Apple Chris has already distinguished himself as insensitive without a capacity for empathy. Did you even go to Architecture School, Chris?
Hmmmm Ive league? Do you mean IVY social club?
Dont worry Chris, I’m sure they will make a drug soon for people like us.
Apple Chris, citizen, JLA-X seem to bound at the hip--they've been commenting on each other's feeds for years. Apple Chris has some amusing posts on brickwork, quartzite milling of azul, etc. I would be careful about how you behave in this forum. You guys probably don't want people to know your real identities, would you? Would your former students want to know how disregarding you are of their investment? Yes, they overpaid for your shitty teaching, from the look of it. It would be fairly easy to narrow down who you are as all three of you have many comments on Archinect. It would be highly embarassing for anyone to know your names after w
I had fun with Photoshop this morning: here are some SAMs. (I know I know, I need to get a life/not be inserting SAMs into photo collages...)
Those are some mad photoshop skills.
SPLOOSH
The lack of differentiation exposes deeper motives...
Actually it's the free version, Apple Chris. Doing Photoshop collages manually is SO last year. But thanks for your ideas. How about brown for shitty architecture men, yellow ochre for diarrhea-like architecture men?
Those color choices sound racist whistle...better stick with primary colors
Jeez jla-x you're such a prude when it comes to toilet humor. Go get a jockstrap and gro
w up.
"I know I know, I need to get a life/not be inserting SAMs into photo collages"
No, you need to do this, so you can move on to posting home addresses and lurking outside of offices. You've got some work to do!
A few of them are there twice. Extra shitty?
Ha! The free collage maker I used actually made some shown twice...Maybe there was some computer learning involved?
Thank you, Citizen. That's a good idea, albeit I don't have time, and am also afraid one of these, if not many, would force himself on me or expose himself (Again, I've been told I'm a beautiful woman). But, you do make a good point--Naming names is extremely important. Why not also name firms and departments? Firms, and academic departments, that give safe harbor to SAMs?
Awesome! Don't forget tax records and their children's names and school locations.
Thanks! And while we're at it, thankfully Archinect makes it easy to learn more about people trolling on Archinect. For example citizen has posted misogynistic posts: https://archinect.com/forum/thread/150010099/zaha-gets-her-doodle
Why is that misogynistic? He was referring to the changing google icon thing. This is why we should not base our society on subjective interpretations.
Let's just go right ahead and start a shitty men in architecture's kids and their kids' friends list too. Can't be too safe. That list will probably be 60% Kevin Bacon.
citizen makes a good point. It would be pretty easy to narrow down who people are on Archinect, especially if they leave a sizable e-ink paper trail. citizen, jla-x, apple chris, have you any shame? If not, then would you please just let us know your names? If the content of what you say is not offensive or shameful, then why would you remain anonymous? What we DO KNOW about you after an hour's time on Archinect: Apple Chris: 1/He traveled to Alys Beach on a work trip. Given that he went State School, he prolly went to UofF.. F for Florida. and then GSD for grad school 2/He taught in architecture school and is quite disrespectful to his former students, whom he disparages. Probably some who are shouldering great debt from school.You're right, AC: they did overpay for your shitty teaching... 3/He and JLA-X have been buddies a while (they've commented on each other's posts for over a year. (JLA-X is an architect with at least 10 years experience under his belt, probably lives in NYC, was considering getting a GC license....he's way too old for this crap.)
jla-x Member since Jun '11 Post History (87 total) Comment History (6730 total)
Apple Chris Member Since Feb'17 Post History (87 total) Comment History (2879 total)
citizen has a shit ton posts too.
IF I SOUND ANGRY, it's because I AM angry, because you're dismissive of the very visceral pain of many women who have shared their stories about SAMs.
To be clear: If you continue to harass, naysay, belittle me or anyone on this Shitty Architecture Men post, we will continue to search until we are able to (more or less) identify you. Architecture is a small world. It's no longer acceptable to act this way.
Thanks.
Oooh, do me next. Also, you got a bunch of those assumptions wrong.
Don't want to be rude here but it is people like you that make me prefer to remain anonymous. You just post a collage of men from an unsubstantiated unverifiable online source and think you're on some kind of crusade or something, glad I never was named for whatever reason, mostly because I'm a decent guy of course, but how would I defend myself against such behaviour? And why do you post anonymous yourself ;-)
Yikes! You might want to read what I actually wrote on that Google doodle post, and not what the following poster wrote.
S
S
With please, non-seq. This is fun, like being a fortuneteller!
Yeah, act irrational and expect people to blindly accept your credibility lmfao.
The men in the photo collages are alphabetically listed, jla-x. They just happened to look fucking creepy!
Some of them do look creepy, Lol
To avoid getting lost in the shuffle, I will start a new thread.
You're right, b3tadine[sutures], It's not the last or the first bastion. I need to be more accurate. Sexism, Misogyny, Racism, Classism, Homophobia (SMRCH for short) are entrenched culturally and systemically across many professions.
Also, your comment is very apt: "It may be that those other professions [ie Medicine, Law....] the economic costs are higher, and access to legal remedies are easily available." To build upon that idea--each profession possesses different tools and resources. We need to build upon our strengths and tools. As architects, we are trained to systematically build or dismantle anything. We learn to make lists, develop hierarchies, work our tails off, and create structures that have the power to impact many people, even entire civilizations.
The more and more I speak with current students, women who have been out in the field, the more I realize that SAM is not going anywhere. It will be built and nurtured, piece by piece. Gross offenses and misconduct that are verified and true need to be addressed IMMEDIATELY.
This is just the beginning of the conversation.
"This is just the beginning of the conversation."
Seems more like a monologue to me tbh.
You too, randomised. Would be fairly easy to identify you. You probably went to gsapp. randomised Member since Dec '07 Post History (1 total) Comment History (2755 total) James Aleister Barcelona @randomised
Is this going to turn into another kozumelle? Anyone remember that
Koz was awesome.
The Australian? Haha
I've seen many references here over the years, but never have known the story...
I can’t remember exactly, but I might be confusing Koz with TAMMUZ
Koz was spoiled Bahrain royalty attending GSD and complaining constantly about his Chinese classmates. He also claimed to have spent $20k of his parent's money to clean up his past social media stuff in order to gain better studio spots.
Suri and his Azure fantasy world, was an Australian student claimant to be architect savant. His drawings skills and mannerism were equal to that of a used condom.
I miss suri ....
What the fuck do you want from me whistleblower? Just because I don't follow you in your crusade that turns more and more into a Don Quixote kind of endeavour...you're pathetic! Go get a fuckin' life, going after anonymous archinect members only because they disagree with you, while hiding behind an anonymous account yourself, stupid hypocrite. And you call yourself a whistleblower, well you blow that's for sure...
It really is remarkable to watch men beat up on someone that's been through a particularly horrible experience.
Not in a good way.
Nice try Chris. I never wrote woman.
Beat up on someone? Come on...they're out looking for a fight/confrontation themselves. Just because someone might have been sexually harassed or experienced sexual misconduct doesn't give them the right to be a fucking asshole to people who had totally nothing to do with that ordeal.
we shouldn't be ok with colleagues who harass our coworkers.
if there are firms that support or harbor this sort of behavior, we should encourage people to speak out against them. the firm probably has some sort of PR department to defend themselves if necessary (even if that role is taken by a sole proprietor). aside from that, those firms should be encouraged to get rid of the toxic leadership that's hurting them.
someone has to do it
The victimization and harassment of women and others by those in positions powerful enough to get away with it is deplorable and unconscionable.
The broadcasting of suspicions and hearsay, followed by reactionary dismissals and untethered calls for retribution against anyone voicing any disagreement whatsoever? Also deplorable.
The first is far worse. The second is tangential, but actually undermines the seriousness of the main problem, I'd argue.
Well said
I'll say it again, and we all know this is the fucking truth, we're paid shit, we're struggling to make ends meet. Much of the #metoo movement has to do with women in various service industries, often non-citizens. N
People with not a lot of agency. Now, it may be that Hollywood women are getting photos taken for covers, are getting published, but they have agency, and wealth. AND, many of them have been, blackballed. What makes anyone think this won't happen if these women come out? That's the cost? Never working in the profession again? One of the assholes in that photo spread is a keynote at this year's conference? What about him?
Citizen, stop it with the intelligent and rational point of view.
I love it, watching you people punch down, and missing. It's amazing, a real display of fear. You stalwarts of patriarchy. http://www.powerpoetry.org/poems/dismantle-patriarchy
So you can’t argue/debate with people who are considered “down” whatever that means?
Punch down The opposite of punch up - to make a joke at the expense of the less powerful or more oppressed group. A favorite technique of right-wing media pundits such as Rush Limbaugh.
so, we have to treat women and minorities with kid gloves? What happened to equal treatment?
Nice try douchecanoe, nice try. Punching down. Ahistorical douche.
j-laxative, come on, just go ahead and say it already, we all know you do in the comfort of your living room. Say it.
Clown, you think the Constitution was written yesterday, and all "men were created equal" means what is written.
I've never understood douchecanoe. Can someone mansplain the expression to me?
I don’t know what you are talking about? Say what?
beta, here's the thing: "punching down" is a valid concept that exists within the discussion of this issue. As is toxic masculinity. These terms are accepted within the lexicon. But people who don't want to acknowledge the problem refuse to admit those terms are already accepted because *they can't prop up their own point of view if they admit so*. It's like the famous Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." These guys' entire sense of self-worth depends on their not understanding/accepting that they have only achieved as much as they have due to systemic preferences that favor them and punish others.
Douchecanoe
It's a lightweight craft used by douches to move around on the figurative conversational currents to spread their message of doucheness to new individuals who were blissfully unaware of their existence. It also has cupholders, which is the only redeeming quality of the douchecanoe. "Wow, did you hear what Jim had to say at the party last night?" "Yeah, he came from nowhere on his douchecanoe and made everyone feel uncomfortable."
#douche#douchebag#douchery#douchedum#stupidity.
I still don’t understand what punching” is I guess. Disagreement is now punching? I hear people say “we need to talk about...” and then when people talk it’s really “accept our narrative 100% or you are evil!”
Dicks sporting goods carries them.
whistleblower, you're being too harsh on citizen. He's a good guy, and while he and I do a lot of sexualized banter here on Archinect it's never non-consensual or bullying.
Same with Non Sequitur. There are plenty of people here who have shown themselves to be not worth the waste of time it would take to explain things to them - Non Seq and citizen are not those guys; they're reasonable.
thanks Donna for the shout-out. I should add "reasonable guy" to my buisness card.
Thanks for the support, Donna, though it seems sad that "please don't attack and threaten without cause" is controversial enough to need defending.
Thank you Donna Sink, I stand corrected. I'll remove any criticism of citizen and Non Sequitor.
Donna Sink, It doesn't seem possible to Edit or remove posts that I have made. However, in context, I can see why I drew the conclusions I had with them--I do see some taunting from them both, and solidarity with Apple Chris and jla-x, who have not been respectful.
I asked a couple legit questions and disagreed on a few points. I seriously don’t understand how that is disrespectful. I poked fun a little after you went on the attack, but never intended to be mean spirited. If you bothered to look back, you would see that I mostly support the idea of a list. I also stated several times that I support your right to make one even if I disagree with the meshing of assault incidents with overall “shitty” behavior. I said a few times that the list is a modern tool of social consequences and empowerment. That was backed up by logic and reason in other threads as well.
I also challenged why that list is problematic on the Harvard thread when demanding that it be translated into action by administration. Any attorney or person with a slither of legal knowledge would tell you the same. I also tried to tease out the nuance of terms like “oppression” “ privilege” etc, because that’s extremely important to do. We have to frame our problems in reality and relative to the world or we can’t orient ourselves.
I’m just trying to discuss a topic and hash out the nuanced nature of it. Sometimes when we break things down, we have to say things that are politically incorrect to seek truth. I would hope that the pursuit of truth is the shared goal of all debates, regardless of the side you are arguing. People also sometimes argue to the extremes as a strategy to test ideas and challenge others, not out of ego, out of a desire to learn and teach. I personally enjoy debating because I learn from it in a way not all too different from a messy design process. If we can’t do that, debate becomes shallow, boring, and loses it’s function. That’s end game for society as far as I’m concerned. I encourage you to think about that. I also encourage you to view fellow debaters are sparring partners who share a mutualism rather then enemies engaging in warfare.
jla-x ++++++++++++
No worries, whistleblower. There’s a community of regulars here who are all smart-assey but generally respectful with each other, and there are regulars who are self-important bloviators (many would put me in this category TBH!).
It’s interesting to think of the dynamics of the forum in relation to the dynamics of a workplace. I have a casual rule that you can’t really understand a place or relationship until spending at least a year there, going through all the seasons and their concomitant typical changes of mood and focus. Maybe the simultaneous strength/flaw of architects is we’re trained to go into a situation and think we can immediately solve the problems of it. That IS the role we’re trained for! And while for me that means smushy emotional labor like listening, watching, meeting the client where they’re at, etc, for an older generation (and maybe for a certain contemporary group of architecture schools ) it means ignoring existing conditions and imposing a self-centered heroic viewpoint. It’s easy to see how someone who views the world as clay to be molded to their will would also view other humans as props to be manipulated - emotionally and physically - to their own ends.
I wonder what percentage of architects show clinically narcissistic tendencies?
Well...assuming that’s true...then you have to ask whether narcissism determines success in the field and why...if you find that it does, then there is a possible correlation with the sex gap, because men have a much higher rate of narcissism according to psychological lit I’ve read.
It’s also expressed differently. Why, who knows, maybe has to do with the fact that narcissism in men had a survival benefit (long ago), whereas in women it was detrimental to their ability to care for infants or something. Just a guess.
But since you blocked me we will never know :(
This thread is terrifying.
On one hand you learn that a good portion of prominent men in the profession are total creeps, and in some cases, likely criminals.
On the other, you learn that debate about how to solve or ameliorate the underlying structural issues is, in many people's minds, not open to everyone, regardless of whether they are architects or not, or what the issues are.
Maybe it is enough to just say to the victims "we hear you and we understand your plight" but I'm with Donna - we are trained to be problem solvers, and that's what most of the discussion appears to be (barring a few intentionally malicious comments) no matter how immature or misdirected it seems.
This seems like it is part of living in an open and critical society where debate and discussion are encouraged. Any efforts to intimidate or stem such discussion are wrong and dangerous. (Debating whether this is MORE wrong and dangerous than.the abuse itself is misdirection and disctraction) These structural inequalities will persist as long as the debate and discussion is limited to only part of the stakeholders, either through traditional patriarchal structures (no abuse to see here, carry on!) or through the emergent dynamics of mob justice against anyone who cares wade into the debate with less than cutting-edge ideas (cis white men can never understand, and despite what they may think, they are all the enemy!)
You had to bring Kevin Spacey into it, didn't you? j/k
Well putC
Well put, archanonymous. It reminds me of a lecture
series by legendary Herbie Hancock. I went with a colleague of mine from architecture school. We were over the moon about it, we were so awestruck by the depth and beauty of his talks. After one of the lectures, we ran into a mentor-y "wise old man" type (also an archetype in Jungian psychology--https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wise_old_man), who was a Fellow at our University. He put a damper on our joy--saying that he found it not rigorous, deep nor intellectual enough.
I realize now why he got this wrong. He was not aware that HH was able to put in clear English concepts and philosophy accessible to the newbie, and radiating in wisdom to the most seasoned. He mistook clarity and passion as simple and naive.
All this to say archanonymous that we need to include all the voices re: SAM, from the newbie amateur to the Zaha-Hadids of the field (she would have a TON to comment on re: SAM, btw!!)
I am seasoned in activism and campaigning, and (mark my words Apple-hotpocket Chrissy) I think that we are 1/only at the beginning. 2/The SAM and TimesUp and MeToo will send massive tremors thru design professions--it will never be the same again, and that is a very very good thing.
Also, please DM me if you'd like to join an online forum to discuss SAM with also including some journalists who are writing critically about SAM and want to do some heavy-lifting to get this all to the next level.
Cheers all!
“It’s not my duty as an architect” - Zaha Hadid
HA! If you knew her personally, Zaha was a complex, incredible and generous person. Her words were taken out of context. It's not an architect's duty nor part of the professional code of conduct to be responsible for what happened at that museum. She was stating that it's not her duty to be held to a different standard of comportment because she's a woman architect. Women want to be known as ARCHITECTS, not women architects. It's an important distinction, just like Rock is different from Roll, and Rick is different that Regina.
Museum?
Pfffft, you want to include all the voices in the debate, but the moment there's a voice that doesn't sing to your beat, you lose your shit and make it personal and go ad hominem. Good luck with dealing with people who write critically about whatever, you do know what 'critically' means I hope ;)
critically/ˈkrɪtɪkli/
adverb
1. in a way that expresses disapproval.
2. in a way that expresses or involves an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art.
3. to a potentially disastrous degree.
Ad hominem or ad womanem?
Well, so far you've gone ad hominem...
https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/architecture/2014/08/zaha-hadid-worker-conditions-lawsuit Ransomised didn't you catch my irony? -- A stadium is a museum of sport.
I replied to your previous post, not to this Zaha saga, that's why I respond to the words critically, debate and all the voices etc...do you even know/remember/realise what you yourself write down? Apparently not.
Rick + Roll, didn't you catch my irony? -- A stadium is a museum of sport. https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/architecture/2014/08/zaha-hadid-worker-conditions-lawsuit Looks like you don't roll with the punches, or go with the flow.
Thanks ransomised, I stand corrected again by you.
Pfffft, you want to include all the voices in the debate, but the ...."moment there's a voice that doesn't sing to your beat, you lose your shit and make it personal and go ad hominem. Good luck with dealing with people who write critically about whatever, you do know what 'critically' means I hope ;) " critically/ˈkrɪtɪkli/ adverb 1. in a way that expresses disapproval. 2. in a way that expresses or involves an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art. 3. to a potentially disastrous degree.
Ok now, randomised, since you want me to respond to your past comment, here it goes: Thank you for providing me the definition of critically. I agree that "You express disapproval ... to a potentially disastrous degree." Actually, SAM is not about nitpicking the details of women and men's accounts of misconduct in Architecture. It's about realizing that many practices in the field of Architecture are not helpful towards realizing our best work, nor retaining talent.
"Actually, SAM is not about nitpicking the details of women and men's accounts of misconduct in Architecture."
It exactly IS about that.
"It's about realizing that many practices in the field of Architecture are not helpful towards realizing our best work, nor retaining talent."
No it is not, it is about so-called shitty men, it says NOTHING about not realising our best work, it might even help producing the best works of some of the people on that list, did you analyse the works of those on the list, Pritzkers are won with those alleged shitty attitudes and behaviours. All you are doing is mere projection, nothing more. It's business not occupational therapy, you know.
“Vote for Hillary or you are sexist!!”
“Love Zaha unconditionally or you are sexist!”
“Agree with me 100% or you are sexist!”
See the trend? How can equal treatment be possible when equal criticism is sexist? Equality works on the positive and negative end. This is one of many logical inconsistencies on the left/feminist platform. To suggest that doesn’t have real effects on men is also very dishonest. It affects the way men are overwhelmingly punished harsher for the same crimes, women usually win divorce and custody, and the reason a women can slap/hit a man and not be looked down upon for it. Not whining just saying. I honestly don’t believe that 100% equal treatment is possible/desirable because we are very different. Equal opportunity IS possible though, and equal rights certainly are too. This is why I am pounding the idea that the best we can do as a society, without heavy tyrannical controls on behavior, and without making life boring and dull, is to ensure the equal rights and liberties of the individual, and allow culture and social behaviors to adapt to that naturally as they have. Does that mean that we have to accept a certain degree of sexism and inequality? Of course we do. It doesn’t mean that it is right, and it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try better as individuals, but it’s ridiculous to think that 100% of sexism or offensive behavior can be squeezed out of society with force. We can’t sterilize society without huge consequences. We can’t protect ourselves 100% from disease without living in a plastic bubble for example. We can’t eradicate crime without a tyrannical police state. It’s not possible. See the JRE Pod cast with Bret Weinstein and Heather Hynes where they talk about diminishing returns and the impossibility of 100% outcomes. So with that, how much sexualized behavior are you willing to accept in the workplace/school? What about a person respectfully flirting with a coworker? What about a person asking someone to have lunch? The boundaries are not well-defined, men and women read things differently, and who defines the boundaries? Do men have a say?If not, why? These are all important questions. For instance, when a women says she doesn’t want a present for her birthday, you better buy a fuckin present from my experience. When a man says he’s tired, it’s usually a nice way of saying he wants to be left alone. What I’m saying is, male female communication has never been straight forward. So, how does that “language” barrier get bridged? Besides the obvious stuff, how do we address the more innocent grey area stuff? Where is the line? I think we will find that it’s where John Stuart Mill said that it was.
To clarify, men treat other men like shit. Women don't want to be treated "equally." The word equal is used very loosely. You don't want us making fun of your hair, mom, etc like we (many of us) do to each other. Women want to be treated better than men which is what we generally already do in most cases. Correct? Ok, that said (excuse me if I don't say this correctly/clearly) can that "special" treatment be interpreted to be sexist? Or, is the goal that men start acting more like neutral and not make fun of other mens hair, mom, etc in your presence? If so, isn't that kind of gender authoritarian for a lack of better words?
jla, to start off:
bah. that was a great long post to reply to all of jla's ranting, but i clicked a button wrong. i'll try again.
.
if you hear people calling you sexist with some frequency, it's probably not because the other person is left/feminist. it would be worthwhile to look within yourself to see why they see that. i'm sure you don't intend to say anything sexist, but sometimes the message you intend to convey isn't interpreted the way you want.
enter isn't creating a line break... as to whether men have a say, sure they do. if you're in a work environment where you have to relate to other people and someone is creating a toxic environment that makes you depressed or uncomfortable to the point of losing productivity, you should have an HR resource or management to turn to. if they can't fix the problem, you may end up having to quit for your own health and well being. if you're leaving because of a toxic environment, more than likely there will be a few people leaving. often that ends up hurting everyone.
as to your boundary questions, the important thing to understand is that you can't tell other people how to feel. everyone is different, so there isn't going to be a clear instruction book on how to act. if someone gets offended when you ask them to lunch, don't ask them to lunch. if someone likes it when you ask them to lunch, then go ahead and ask them to lunch.
you seem to operate with this idea that if you don't intend to offend someone, they shouldn't be offended. sort of like you have a set of expectations and rules that other people should accept. that doesn't work. when you ask someone to lunch and you notice by what they say, or whatever sort of body language they're giving off, that they're offended, don't get mad at them for not fitting into your rules. this is where you need to practice empathy, listen, and try to understand them. when you get mad or frustrated because maybe you don't know how to act or you don't know why they're upset, you make things much worse. accept that it's ok for them to not want to go to lunch. don't tell them they shouldn't be offended. don't tell them they should want to go to lunch with you. don't tell them how to feel.
Personally I understand that, and no one has ever called me sexist in my real life, I’m actually very polite and shy in real life, just talking about the general objective line between being on an “asshole” list and not.
I understand your subjective claim, but intent does matter. Now, if someone is a complete bull in a china shop and just doesn’t get it that they are offensive, then it’s probably their fault, but in the “normal” spectrum the line is also blurred and I’d say intent becomes more important than interpretation. Does that make sense? For instance, if I say “hey curt how are you” and you say “wtf do you mean by that!” Then intent certainly overrides feelings. So my point is, the line between men and women in the normal spectrum is blurred. Obviously running around with your hand on your crotch and cat calling is objectively wrong even if the person is mental and has no ill intentions. But, kissing someone on the cheek for example when saying hello can be blurry depending on culture, upbringing, personality, etc. The obvious stuff is clear to a normal person, the other stuff can get a normal person in trouble depending on who is on the receiving end of the the gesture. Make sense?
So, where is the line where we say, “stop being so sensitive?” To put it bluntly. There must be a line somewhere right? We can’t leave everything to interpretation as the post modernist would have it...
it's entirely about the emotions. you created the catalyst that caused me to get upset. i get that you didn't mean to, but you did. what's important is what you do once you realize you upset me. when you say it wasn't your intent to upset me, you're saying it's my fault i'm upset, which is more or less telling me how i'm supposed to feel. that just makes things worse for both of us. i don't know your intent, and you don't know why i'm upset. that's where empathy comes in. you could try to find out why i'm upset, or just say 'sorry' and walk away. in the long run, not turning it into a battle about who's right or justified with their 'intent' will let us both get over it faster. this is how to deal with the gray areas. it's ok to make mistakes and push someone's boundaries a bit past what they're comfortable with. how you handle that is what matters. respect the boundary, say your sorry, and more than likely you can both move on. if you tell me my feelings shouldn't matter because of your intent, it will be harder and take longer to get over it.
Ok, I get what you are saying. So with a social situation regarding some of the more “grey” areas I would agree that a 2-way exchange/communication is sufficient. But when some behavior causes someone to be labeled and punished intent matters. Let’s stick with the “shitty men” label for now. “Shitty” is a category that puts ones integrity into question, so the intent has direct bearing on their moral compass. What if a person from another culture offends by simply following his cultural norms? What if an Italian man kisses a women he first meets and she gets so offended that she puts him on that list? Does he really deserve to be labeled shitty for doing what he’s done his entire life? What about an older NYer who makes crude jokes at a party or yells and curses during a review? Is his culture any less valid? When in Rome, ok, but who decides what the rules of Rome are in such a diverse society?
I think we have to accept a certain degree of offense just like we have to accept a certain degree of risk in life. We can’t react to every slight of tongue, bad joke, and goofy gesture, and we can’t expect others to completely bend to our every feeling.
i don't think those strawman scenarios exist. if you just try to be a decent person, you won't have to worry so much about someone labeling you as a shitty person. if you are labeled as a shitty person, it might be helpful to think through why, without blaming the people who think you're shitty. don't worry about the italian guy. if he tries to kiss you, back away. hopefully he has the social awareness and empathy to not act like the sort of person who gets labeled as shitty. if so, he can apologize and move on without blaming you for how you feel, and without making a big deal of his faux pas.
if you're not able to empathize, listen to others, and try to understand them, then you're probably not going to operate well in a team environment. when you get mad and frustrated at people for not behaving the way you want them to, they're going to start mirroring that frustration and pretty soon you have a team of unhappy and unproductive people just being mad at each other. you end up creating the toxic environment (not in a sexual harassment way, but in a general 'bad feelings' way). if this happens, ultimately you'll have to be removed from the group so the group can be productive.
if you can't function in the environment you're in, i think you have to change your environment.
Agreed, especially us architects can propose changes to a "toxic" environment. I change environments for a living ;)
Curtkram, it's very simple. These are creatures who have adapted and thrive in toxic environments:
And this fella:
Yep. Basically these twerps can sniff out vulnerable (oft female) targets and attack and vent deep seeded anger. However, I fear that many of these little f#$@ers also become instructors and even tenured faculty at universities because they're support rung-by-rung by little twerps who evolve to be big twerps. Donna Sink commented earlier about Narcissistic syndrome in Architecture...I think myths of lone genius as supported/corroborated by Ayn Rand help lead to this faulty mindset.
I'm offended by Danny Devito being included in this. That man is a legend.
pistols at dawn
whistleblowingarchitect, Ayn Rand deserves a HUGE portion of the blame for why there are so many jerky architects: fuck The Fountainhead.
We know women leave this industry. How many left because of a toxic (sexual, narcissistic, disordered, abusive) work environment? That is what the polls we get every once in awhile should be asking. It’s why I left every job. Taking care of kids or elders is a cover-up. Kids in school say they are going to be the great one that isn’t going to suffer like those they see in the profession but they assume a lot, that there is no toxic soup, that it is just about them and their abilities and determination but it isn’t. It’s about the toxic environment. You can have a well formed seed but it needs good soil to grow in.
Ive worked on my own for a while, last job/internship the guy was a complete fuck and I couldn’t stand being there, now when I collaborate with architects I can definitely see that most firms are terrible places to work. I always think that if my business went under and I needed to get a 9-5 Id work at any old job before an architecture firm. So I’ve asked the question like 10 times and no one has answered...Do you think that given that reality, idp/axp is contributing to the problem by giving these firms control over someone’s ability to get a license/practice with autonomy?
Yes, I do. I'm self-employed and doing ok, I think about applying to firms sometimes but I just can't do it. It's too bad because I want to work with other people, work on bigger projects, I just can't. But I don't think it's me that's the problem. Anyone experience the same (male or female)? I know several people personally that say the same.
Would you say that you are introverted or extroverted? I always score pretty highly introverted on those tests...I’d say that probably has something to do with my not wanting to deal with office politics. I like working with people, but only cool people...lol
Introverted with an extroverted side. 80-90% of the people in firms are great too, but that toxic 10-20% is the drinkers, druggies, molesters, personality disordered, or even just terribly disorganized/secretly imcompetent and lacking awareness of it.
Would you say that the 10-20% finds their way to the top positions easier for some reason? Kinda like how politicians suck because sucky people are drawn to power...
It's like we share a brain. -- edit, part of a brain. ha ha
Jlax to your idp question I’d say yes. The one factor that kept me from switching to construction was loss aversion of idp credits and more broadly feeling as though I should finish out my arch license before quitting. When I completed idp it really felt like this freedom of options opened up.
I had someone refuse to sign like 1000 hrs of mine. He “didn’t trust signing up for any more government stuff.”
he he I know someone who inflated hours so that they would at least get more than 50% counted b/c they filed more than 6 months afterwards...CRAPPY NCARB. #allwhitemen with a couple of women hangin' in there, perhaps leanin' in there by the way, if you've ever been to an NCARB summit: https://www.ncarb.org/press/ncarb-installs-fy15-board-directors
Yep. I am thankfully in a wonderful environment but you have to really look under every rock and tree of an office and sniff out hints of toxicity. For example: I interviewed at Annabelle Seldorf's so long ago that risk of them knowing who I am is slim to none. I was needing to use the facilities before my interview. I walked by the rows and rows of desks and it was dead quiet--I felt like I was walking on eggshells. In the bathroom, the atmosphere with gorgeous integrated sinks within honed carrara marble was completely ruined by an off-white label printed out from one of those labeling machines: "Wipe bowl after use." Where are we again? are we in a fucking airplane bathroom?!? I hate when they ask you to wipe down bowl after fucking use, because it's not ever fucking clean nor dry when we go inside. Anyways--I head into the Conference Room where this meanie guy looks at my portfolio then brandishes technical terms like RCP and how one fucking idiot didn't know what RCP meant in an interview. And how with my Rhino skills, I could expect to earn $45K. _To_live_in_NYC. I then never heard from them again. Do you think it's because I said he resembled Mr. Penguin? I don't want to insult Danny DeVito....
Top right box is me, always.
That's because the top right is correct. And anyone who disagrees is welcome to wipe with pine cones at my house.
That graphic is awesome. My kids do the bottom left thing all the time and it drives me nuts. I’m gonna show it to them later. Haha
Everyone knows the correct placement of the roll is on top of the handle of the faucet.
I'm top right. But it's interesting - the original patent drawings show top left. So I've clearly been doing it wrong my whole life.
We've received multiple emails (only the guys) about not using the one unisex restroom near the lobby as it's predominantly for clients and someone can't aim and refuses to clean up after themselves. I joked to my boss about the email being sexist, and did not receive a laugh. *shrug* The email was actually the first time I learned of the bathroom, as it's sort of around the corner and looks like a closet door.
We also have a running chuckle in the office about how the guys restroom is not sized to code. The 2 urinals and lavs are too close together and there isn't an accessible stall. A senior partner was in charge of the reno before I got here. After working on said partner's jobs a few times, and complaining about the restroom, one of the people in my bay said "well take it up with (name removed) if you don't like it" and everything was clear to me.
Oh god, no....NO!
Archinect: Is Penguin wearing elevator shoes? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
It’s interesting how the conversation has shifted to one about the general toxic environments found in architecture for male and female. I’m in a similar situation as tintt said above. I have my license and am thinking of working for myself. I don’t particularly want to but my firm is experiencing layoffs and reading job postings of “must really enjoy working in a fast pace environment on quick deadlines.” Translation, do the job of two people on under budget badly scheduled projects. I just can’t bring myself to work in another place like that for 50-60k. Right now the options are try my own thing or just say screw it and look at project engineer positions. And same with whistleblower, you really do have to look under every rock to find a good situation. It made sense in the recession but now? We supposedly care about creating great spaces for people but why not ourselves?
Exactly where I was hoping this conversation would go: to the general air of toxicity in so many architecture firms, which can also be traced back to the abusive nature of architecture school.
What are the chances that the NCARB Board of Directors have ever: 1/Been a single parent trying to study for AREs while juggling a 60+ hour/week work schedule? 2/Struggled with anxiety and depression from above work conditions? 3/Barely been able to make ends meet with rent since they are paid shit by FAIA bosses? #allwhitemen with a couple of women hangin' in there, perhaps even leanin' in there. https://www.ncarb.org/press/ncarb-installs-fy15-board-directors
I think if you want to get more people on your side you can’t make sexist and racist generalizations.
I'm actually more upset by the man in the bottom row, center, who was asked to turn slightly instead of facing the camera head-on (like the those above). It really messes up the chi of the picture.
This is not the current board.
archi-dude+++ I was with you until you turned it into an evil white men thing. You can’t get anywhere if you alienate 90% of the profession based on their race and sex. As far as race goes, I’d be very happy to see more blacks represented, but we also have to understand the reality that a 50/50 expectation is the wrong metric. Blacks only make up 13% of the population, of that %, how many are of a working age? Of that % how many have a college education? So, these issues require greater depth of research. That’s really my main complaint with these claims. If we make assumptions based on how white a photo looks, we are creating a skewed narrative.
Those are some white looking mofos though...jkjk
To your points 1,2,and 3, chances are slim to none that they have even considered the difficulty of real life, and the idea that idp isn’t all merit based but heavily circumstantial. I’ve said it before....If a govt mandated barrier gives benefit to those with economic privilege, don’t be surprised when the end demographics reflect privilege.
More recent grads in boards of directors!!!!!!111!1!
!!1!!!1!!!!1
'Multiple exclamation marks,' he went on, shaking his head, 'are a sure sign of a diseased mind.' -- in Eric
'Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.' -- in Reaper Man
'And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head.' -- in Maskerade
https://wiki.lspace.org/mediaw...
I thought we were writing in new binary code, no?
#MeToo nonsequitur. And where's the American Flag lapel? What country are we in?? #MakeArchitectureGreatAgain
Current board is somewhere buried on internet. Can someone pls send us or post current pic? Happy to see that it takes 12.5 fucking years to cross finish line. I thought it was 12.8....
edit, wrong spot.
edit, wrong spot.
Not sure what race or gender these folks are, anyone know? Emil Lorch. Arthur Peabody. A.M. Edelman. Mellen Greeley. C. J. “Pat” Paderewski. Dean L. Gustavson. Daniel Boone. E. G. Hamilton. Lorenzo D. Williams. Ballard Kirk, FAIA. Robert L. Tessier. George Terrien, NCARB. Herbert P. McKim. Harry G. Robinson. Darrell L. Smith. Ann R.
Happy to see that it takes 12.5 fucking years to cross finish line of licensure. I thought it was 12.8...
yeah, your american system needs some tweaking. I wrote my exams and got licensed under 4y from graduation... just past my 29th birthday.
That's the average, so that includes all the lazy bastards (m/f/etc.) too ;)
I hear ya rando, I could have shaved off nearly 8months had I got my act together earlier. 8-)
Certainly, all that lazing about.
I am curious, how would one balance the requirements of public safety - where lives are on the line - with that of addressing potential structural inequality propagated through licensing requirements? The latter is not a life/death situation, though it is urgent, while the former (the reason for our licensing requirements) is what leads to things like 80 people dying in a mall fire happening in Russia, not here.
I would favor more stringent licensing requirements than what we have now, with other simultaneous approaches to address inequality and structural racism. As is, we are talking about tearing down the profession instead of building it up so everyone can be better.
Apple don't get cheeky on me again. I gotta get back to my revit model now. Ciao till later.
Your revit model? You mean the revit model owned by that old white guy that pays your salary ;)
The model is a product that's made with tools so it can be owned, and so can the tools, they're owned and licensed too.
I thought revit was all about family values.
lol okkeeee you got me. Randomised how did you know who pays my salary?!
Chrissy Apple Cheek, FAIA LEED BD + C, sounds like just the right approach--don't assume they know anything! Instead good hires are fast learners and worker bees. Why some architects try to make architecture seem mysterious, full of intrigue, and out of reach, is beyond me.
That's Sir Chrissy Apple. Don't forget that he's been knighted by the Queen on two separate occasions.
Queen Latifah?
Freddie Mercury. That's the only Queen that has ever mattered.
Nothing really matters toooo me.
Moi Aussi. Mwaaah ooohhhhsiiii. Actually French women would be surprisingly sympathetic with a few folks like archi-dude.
Love your knew title Chrissy! I thought Archinect usernames were ironclad, stamped on at birth. I'm gonna change my name too.
English was invented by the cis white patriarchy...so bad grammar is a revolutionary act or something.
Eat a tide pod and get with the times bro!
Ok...WolfWhistleBlowingArchitect is my new name, clipped since Archinect usernames are capped to 25 characters. how does that sound to everyone?
Nobody gives a damn
Oh shut up will you randomised. go back to big ben. I was rifting on apple chris, and not addressing you.
"how does that sound to everyone?"
So blowfish, all you do is seek attention and approval, I smell a diaper full of daddy issues here. And why do you need to drag Ben into this, leave him alone!
You know, I don't think this Forum has anything left to say. The few men still standing don't even know what to say next, and we're all just kinda awkwardly standing here, looking down at our toes. Donna Sink, is there a way to put this Forum to bed/shift to another Forum?
You keep on replying and posting, if you simply shut up this thread would gently sink into oblivion and we all could move on with other things, maybe a tip. Weren't you creating another forum or something to discuss shitty men, what's taking you so long or keeping you here?
I think you're doing fine here, Wolf. You've got some regulars in a tizzy, and that's a good thing!
Heh! Thanks Sir Apple (we're forever bonded) As for you randomised....Grr you push my buttons. HA! sounds like feeling's mutual.
Who wants to meet me on Pornhub? Is there an architecture feed? Oh wait....architects don't have sex/fun/videogames.
Don't flatter yourself...
Referencing Wolf's post above about putting this thread to rest: it doesn't matter either way. This conversation (meaning this cultural shift) is SO much bigger than this thread on this website or even within this discipline. Other websites - Twitter & Jezebel are the two I'm on mainly - are talking about #metoo a lot, there are podcasts and talk shows....make no mistake, haters, this *is* a cultural shift! Come along or get left behind,as the saying goes (I say this from my desk where I am kicking and screaming to not have to succumb to the inevitable and learn $*&!ing Revit LOL).
There is an article today about Louis CK's possibilities for making a comeback. I LOVE Louis CK's humor and social commentary; he's been one of my favorites for a long while and his influence on humor is magnificent. I'm heartbroken to lose his presence and for such a stupid fucking gross reason. But does he *need* to be granted a comeback? Is it inevitable? I'm fine if the answer is no.
I'd say Richard Meier won't get a second chance. He'll take his six months off then retire. His firm will continue on, maybe change their name slightly, which is fine. Some people named on the list may miss out on an opportunity, or some others may *get* an opportunity from it, we don't know. But the conversation about this already exists, in schools and in professional practice, and the next time some self-proclaimed artiste in our field has a pen-throwing temper tantrum in the office and scares all the interns hopefully a few of them will feel emboldened to get up and say "I call bullshit and I'm out". That's a good change!
Dickhard Meier Assoc.
Someone (won't say who) felt sad / thought maybe harsh that RM is called the "Harvey Weinstein of Architecture." Do you think he:
1/Thinks RM ain't that bad or
2/There's going to be an even BIGGER douchebag about to be exposed? If so, I'm getting popcorn.
Thank you Donna Sink. You're a wonderful moderator. you're not afraid to check bad behavior or overstepping boundaries. Good clean fun, right?
Love Louis CK too. Much different level of abuse than say, Cosby. Seems truly repentant too.
[insert sexist joke here]
insert...
What do [email protected] [email protected] and ( • Y • )@big.dk have in common?!? They're all Masters of their Own Domain!
I love manboobs, actually. More like mutton in the teeth.
sounds like a bad 80s rock band.
Which part @NS? First or second clause? Too long otherwise for a handle.
Which part? First or second clause? Too long otherwise for a handle.
I
I wwwa