Are there any firms out there that allow their employees to have a balanced work/life situation? or at least take it upon themselves to compensate the employees when they are needed for over time work?
Chartreuse_Urchin
Mar 2, 18 3:38 am
I have never heard of such firms and I am happy to be proven wrong. In case you missed it, the general outlook of average corporate archi is one that requires long hours but with low pay. In my experience, the bigger the firm, the worse it gets. If you want work-life balance, you'd be better off with smaller firms where you can cultivate good relationship directly with the top management and they would hopefully be more considerate to you.
sameolddoctor
Mar 2, 18 12:46 pm
Nope, not in my experience. One of the best places I worked at was a large corporate. Great life work balance and benefits. The only downside is that the work got a bit boring sometimes
Chartreuse_Urchin
Mar 4, 18 9:45 am
What is the name of this large corporate you worked at? And if it was so great, why did you leave?
Non Sequitur
Mar 2, 18 6:51 am
I have excellent work life balance. I’m reasonably free to work around family responsibilities, get paid overtime over 37.5hr/week, and can work from home as required (and paid to). Not everything is dark and gloomy, you just need to look.
zamanim8
Mar 2, 18 6:59 pm
I second the comment below! Is your firm hiring?!
Non Sequitur
Mar 5, 18 8:42 am
maybe.
ArchNyen
Mar 2, 18 7:01 am
Non Sequitur, is your firm hiring?
Non Sequitur
Mar 2, 18 8:25 am
maybe.
geezertect
Mar 2, 18 7:26 am
I agree with Chartrueuse. A smaller firm a better bet. In a large organization doing large projects, you are a member of the "team" and are expected to put in the same hours as the rest of the "team", regardless of how effective or efficient you are. No incentive to streamline. If you are fast, you will just end up doing somebody else's work and subsidizing their stupidity. Face time is the name of the game.
Non Sequitur
Mar 2, 18 8:25 am
Yep, never refuse the opp for a beer with the equity owners.
Chartreuse_Urchin
Mar 4, 18 9:49 am
Geezertect, t
his has been my experience largely with large organization.
MDH-ARCH
Mar 2, 18 8:19 am
There are absolutely firms out there with good work / life balance. Working tons of hours with no over time and low pay to begin with is just insane to me. Look around or speak up or leave. Just because were "architects" doesn't mean we have to be treated like dirt. I get my 40 hours in and have half days Friday. In the summer I only work 4 days a week and make a solid salary, and I am young.. I think the younger generation refuses to be treated like animals and I am all for it. Good luck..
Non Sequitur
Mar 2, 18 8:29 am
It seems there is a portion of people who just don't understand that you don't need to be a "starving artist" in this profession. I have the freedoms I listed above because I'm trusted with entire projects and can manage them around my other, non-office related, adult responsibilities. No one picks up after me thou, and I've seen others in the office burn bridges for failure to reciprocate.
Chartreuse_Urchin
Mar 4, 18 10:05 am
I don't doubt for a second that there are firms out there who can offer work-life balance but they tend to be smaller / boutique firms in my experience. I myself worked in a small firm once and they didn't pay for overtime but then I never had to do overtime. I didn't have to fill time sheets, I ran the entire project, and basically they treated me like an adult human. My experience with larger organization, you're treated like commodity. Like geezertect mentioned above, face time is the name of the game. I often had to stay late just because the management expected you to do long hours, even though I didn't have to. If you can leave office on time they'll think you don't have enough things to do. I was good and I could use it as a leverage in smaller firms to ask for a raise but in a larger organization (in my experience) they already have a set payscale based on your job title and number of years with the company, so if you're good you'll be better off with small firms or strike out on your own.
MDH-ARCH
Mar 4, 18 10:26 am
100%. I am currently at a small firm, no overtime... but I don't or very rarely work overtime. Having a relationship with the boss is key as well. Larger firms you probably don't even see the hire-ups.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 2, 18 9:01 am
Work for people instead of companies. I'm self-employed with three part-time "jobs" also mom of 2 young kids, one of whom goes to physical therapy weekly (try that working for the man) and I have 10x the work-life balance as when I worked for the man and had to show "face" and be a team member. Now I just show results, get paid, repeat. I work 25 hours a week or less and make more now than when I worked full time. Nobody tells me I can't have any other activities outside of work. (Which is where you get work, by the way, while not being at it. I get work at Superbowl parties, etc.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 2, 18 9:01 am
They are more like hats than jobs....
Non Sequitur
Mar 2, 18 9:29 am
We have monthly physio visits and my wife has just finished negotiating a management (non arch) position with modification to allow daycare and appointments.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 2, 18 9:44 am
How does it work? Does she have to make up the time? I'd be afraid to even ask a firm for such leniency. Working at a firm, I had a hard time getting a few hours off to attend my grandfather's funeral. They even pulled out the company handbook to show me their policy, time off was for funerals of immediate family members only...
Non Sequitur
Mar 2, 18 9:52 am
My wife asked for her required hours be modified to suit the commute time. They asked if that was a deal-breaker and she said yes, so they amended the position to suit. As for me, I'm required to make up the time if it impacts project deliverables... but I've worked up such a reputation that if I need to leave 2 hours early for something, no one will object because they know I won't let it impact clients. Others are more cavalier and grind away at the partner's patience.
Steeplechase
Mar 2, 18 9:03 am
Giant corporate firm or more medium size firms, I’ve never been expected to do unpaid overtime. I’ve also never had anything but care and support from my colleagues and superiors when my family needed me. We work as a team and that means taking care of each other.
Peter Normand
Mar 2, 18 9:08 am
I think the work life balance is a regional thing and is also tied to the studio culture the firm leaders grew into at design schools. In Chicago typically there is hourly rate for overtime (not time and a half) if you work for a salary the salary is based on expected work load with 48-50 hours being typical among my friends and contacts. The South tends to have the best work life balance and I think the west coast and north east are the worst with many exceptions for good firms and departments/studios within larger firms.
I have noticed that at bigger firms there is a lot of non billable time, meetings, standards training, morning announcements, product reps dropping in with snacks or lunch and other distractions. Also in larger firms there can be more socializing at work and a more circuitous route for decision making that can suck up time. The worst is waiting for your boss to make a decision because they are managing 20-30 other people on a dozen other projects.
Over and OUT
Peter N
randomised
Mar 2, 18 10:06 am
Don't people research the firms they apply to? Everybody knows the firms that have a horrible work-life balance, yet they keep on applying there...and complain afterwards. If you don't like it do something about it.
Peter Normand
Mar 2, 18 11:43 am
Firms do an OK job not letting people know they work long hours and under pay. New people in this profession often do not know how to ask questions or search for information beyond a cursory google search if that, may folks are anxious to just land a job, any job. The problem is the first few jobs you have do a lot to shape how you will function as a professional through your career.
randomised
Mar 2, 18 2:17 pm
I always knew exactly what I was getting myself into when applying at offices with a horrible work-life balance, are people really that naive?
Peter Normand
Mar 2, 18 4:25 pm
I think they are desperate for their first job and if they are naive it is with regards to their self worth more than anything else.
shellarchitect
Mar 2, 18 11:13 am
Most firms I've worked at pay straight time for over 40 per week. I generally leave at 4:30 and no one really questions me much about anything.
Thing is you prob. need 10 years exp. to get that freedom. You don't make shit now because you don't even know how much you don't know. I'm 36 and do alright now, but took awhile and a lot of bouncing around to reach that point
sameolddoctor
Mar 2, 18 12:50 pm
According to me, in this business you get to choose only two out of three:
1. Great work
2. Great money
3. Great life-work balance.
Choose 2, and the 3rd one you will not get.
I worked at a 4 person firm for 10 years and then went to a corporate, and have to say it was one of the best jobs I ever had. People can be surprisingly open minded in large hives, depending on the team you get into. I work at a mid size firm now and it sucks ass.
thisisnotmyname
Mar 2, 18 1:31 pm
We pay all staff hourly. Everyone is compensated for each hour they are here.
In most of my experiences, excessive overtime was the result of poor project management and/or the inability to get design decisions finalized in a timely manner. Firm size did not matter.
BulgarBlogger
Mar 2, 18 2:28 pm
I heard of a firm in Philadelphia who dubs everyone who is not a Registered Architect a "non-professional" and therefore those employees are eligible for overtime.
geezertect
Mar 2, 18 5:21 pm
No surprise. I'll bet that's actually pretty widespread.
whistler
Mar 2, 18 6:59 pm
What's over time??
My staff only work four days a week and typically about 9.5 hrs/ day to make up the basic work week. Some work part time or half days to work around family commitments / daycare etc. Figure it out folks, it's not that hard to train the clients to not expect miracles because it creates a vicious cycle of over expectation. It's took me about 10-12 years to train the client group to understand the principles behind our office format, but they get it now and respect the staff and their private lives outside the office.
Working late this Friday but only because i went skiing this morning!
sameolddoctor
Mar 5, 18 8:30 pm
Client end management becomes much tougher if the clients are overseas...
randomised
Mar 6, 18 12:52 pm
That's great whistler, over here in the Netherlands it is way more common too, not everywhere but I worked at an office that was closed on Friday's, and I personally also work only 4 days a week, it's just part of the conversation during the hiring process. Nothing special, as if you can be productive all day every day, there's more to life than work.
arch76
Mar 2, 18 8:09 pm
The firm I work at has some practices that are quasi-shady wrt salary employees- it appears to be legal, but professionally questionable. It seems they care more about asses in seats than brains in skulls. However, the pay and bonus structure is good enough to make up for it. Its all about where you draw your boundaries.
accesskb
Mar 5, 18 4:04 am
I think all firms offer a work/life balance. Question is are you efficient and smart enough to make sure the work is done on time and before deadlines so you don't have to do overtime and have a balance in life. Many firms pay salary because they want to prevent employees from taking it easy knowing they can bill overtime hours and it also give them a reason to not do overtime. I used to work with a guy who stayed back at work every evening so he could get free dinner paid by the company for doing overtime work. I can't imagine what he'd have done if the company paid for overtime hours. He got fired after they found out.
My advice is to work in a salary based firm instead of one that pays you by the hour. It will make you find ways to get things done more efficiently and give you more free time. That is if your intention is not to earn extra money doing overtime.
Chartreuse_Urchin
Mar 5, 18 5:29 am
I'd say it all comes down to leadership. If the leadership is strong, the firm should function properly.The guy in your story is exactly the kind of guy who spoils the market for the rest of us sane workers. I have a life and I work in a salary-based firm and I would rather pay my own dinner than staying back doing nothing just so I can claim free dinners. Good leaders should be able to see that and in a small firm, it'll be easier to catch a guy like this. In bigger firms with convoluted structure, top management might instead see him as a hard worker. The disconnect between top management and the workers 'working the floor', so to speak, is what usually causes all the corporate maladies. I have a good team but sadly the corporate culture here is that you don't say no to the boss. Once, we had a big deadline and we have actually resolved it among ourselves on how to tackle it. We could have done it without having to do overtime but suddenly, the big boss caught wind of this and she was panicking that she asked us to come to office on Saturday and Sunday. The team leader didn't dare to explain that we'd resolved the workload distribution and that is how I ended up showing up at the office on Saturday and Sunday to browse the internet.
Non Sequitur
Mar 5, 18 8:44 am
Access, are you suggesting that part of achieving good work-life balance is the responsibility of the employee? How novel.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 6, 18 5:23 am
Um, how about when your firm gives you 360 million dollars worth of projects across the country and little to no support? It was kinda unbalancing to say the least.
Are there any firms out there that allow their employees to have a balanced work/life situation? or at least take it upon themselves to compensate the employees when they are needed for over time work?
I have never heard of such firms and I am happy to be proven wrong. In case you missed it, the general outlook of average corporate archi is one that requires long hours but with low pay. In my experience, the bigger the firm, the worse it gets. If you want work-life balance, you'd be better off with smaller firms where you can cultivate good relationship directly with the top management and they would hopefully be more considerate to you.
Nope, not in my experience. One of the best places I worked at was a large corporate. Great life work balance and benefits. The only downside is that the work got a bit boring sometimes
What is the name of this large corporate you worked at? And if it was so great, why did you leave?
I have excellent work life balance. I’m reasonably free to work around family responsibilities, get paid overtime over 37.5hr/week, and can work from home as required (and paid to). Not everything is dark and gloomy, you just need to look.
I second the comment below! Is your firm hiring?!
maybe.
Non Sequitur, is your firm hiring?
maybe.
I agree with Chartrueuse. A smaller firm a better bet. In a large organization doing large projects, you are a member of the "team" and are expected to put in the same hours as the rest of the "team", regardless of how effective or efficient you are. No incentive to streamline. If you are fast, you will just end up doing somebody else's work and subsidizing their stupidity. Face time is the name of the game.
Yep, never refuse the opp for a beer with the equity owners.
Geezertect, t his has been my experience largely with large organization.
There are absolutely firms out there with good work / life balance. Working tons of hours with no over time and low pay to begin with is just insane to me. Look around or speak up or leave. Just because were "architects" doesn't mean we have to be treated like dirt. I get my 40 hours in and have half days Friday. In the summer I only work 4 days a week and make a solid salary, and I am young.. I think the younger generation refuses to be treated like animals and I am all for it. Good luck..
It seems there is a portion of people who just don't understand that you don't need to be a "starving artist" in this profession. I have the freedoms I listed above because I'm trusted with entire projects and can manage them around my other, non-office related, adult responsibilities. No one picks up after me thou, and I've seen others in the office burn bridges for failure to reciprocate.
I don't doubt for a second that there are firms out there who can offer work-life balance but they tend to be smaller / boutique firms in my experience. I myself worked in a small firm once and they didn't pay for overtime but then I never had to do overtime. I didn't have to fill time sheets, I ran the entire project, and basically they treated me like an adult human. My experience with larger organization, you're treated like commodity. Like geezertect mentioned above, face time is the name of the game. I often had to stay late just because the management expected you to do long hours, even though I didn't have to. If you can leave office on time they'll think you don't have enough things to do. I was good and I could use it as a leverage in smaller firms to ask for a raise but in a larger organization (in my experience) they already have a set payscale based on your job title and number of years with the company, so if you're good you'll be better off with small firms or strike out on your own.
100%. I am currently at a small firm, no overtime... but I don't or very rarely work overtime. Having a relationship with the boss is key as well. Larger firms you probably don't even see the hire-ups.
Work for people instead of companies. I'm self-employed with three part-time "jobs" also mom of 2 young kids, one of whom goes to physical therapy weekly (try that working for the man) and I have 10x the work-life balance as when I worked for the man and had to show "face" and be a team member. Now I just show results, get paid, repeat. I work 25 hours a week or less and make more now than when I worked full time. Nobody tells me I can't have any other activities outside of work. (Which is where you get work, by the way, while not being at it. I get work at Superbowl parties, etc.
They are more like hats than jobs....
We have monthly physio visits and my wife has just finished negotiating a management (non arch) position with modification to allow daycare and appointments.
How does it work? Does she have to make up the time? I'd be afraid to even ask a firm for such leniency. Working at a firm, I had a hard time getting a few hours off to attend my grandfather's funeral. They even pulled out the company handbook to show me their policy, time off was for funerals of immediate family members only...
My wife asked for her required hours be modified to suit the commute time. They asked if that was a deal-breaker and she said yes, so they amended the position to suit. As for me, I'm required to make up the time if it impacts project deliverables... but I've worked up such a reputation that if I need to leave 2 hours early for something, no one will object because they know I won't let it impact clients. Others are more cavalier and grind away at the partner's patience.
Giant corporate firm or more medium size firms, I’ve never been expected to do unpaid overtime. I’ve also never had anything but care and support from my colleagues and superiors when my family needed me. We work as a team and that means taking care of each other.
I think the work life balance is a regional thing and is also tied to the studio culture the firm leaders grew into at design schools. In Chicago typically there is hourly rate for overtime (not time and a half) if you work for a salary the salary is based on expected work load with 48-50 hours being typical among my friends and contacts. The South tends to have the best work life balance and I think the west coast and north east are the worst with many exceptions for good firms and departments/studios within larger firms.
I have noticed that at bigger firms there is a lot of non billable time, meetings, standards training, morning announcements, product reps dropping in with snacks or lunch and other distractions. Also in larger firms there can be more socializing at work and a more circuitous route for decision making that can suck up time. The worst is waiting for your boss to make a decision because they are managing 20-30 other people on a dozen other projects.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Don't people research the firms they apply to? Everybody knows the firms that have a horrible work-life balance, yet they keep on applying there...and complain afterwards. If you don't like it do something about it.
Firms do an OK job not letting people know they work long hours and under pay. New people in this profession often do not know how to ask questions or search for information beyond a cursory google search if that, may folks are anxious to just land a job, any job. The problem is the first few jobs you have do a lot to shape how you will function as a professional through your career.
I always knew exactly what I was getting myself into when applying at offices with a horrible work-life balance, are people really that naive?
I think they are desperate for their first job and if they are naive it is with regards to their self worth more than anything else.
Most firms I've worked at pay straight time for over 40 per week. I generally leave at 4:30 and no one really questions me much about anything.
Thing is you prob. need 10 years exp. to get that freedom. You don't make shit now because you don't even know how much you don't know. I'm 36 and do alright now, but took awhile and a lot of bouncing around to reach that point
According to me, in this business you get to choose only two out of three:
1. Great work
2. Great money
3. Great life-work balance.
Choose 2, and the 3rd one you will not get.
I worked at a 4 person firm for 10 years and then went to a corporate, and have to say it was one of the best jobs I ever had. People can be surprisingly open minded in large hives, depending on the team you get into. I work at a mid size firm now and it sucks ass.
We pay all staff hourly. Everyone is compensated for each hour they are here.
In most of my experiences, excessive overtime was the result of poor project management and/or the inability to get design decisions finalized in a timely manner. Firm size did not matter.
I heard of a firm in Philadelphia who dubs everyone who is not a Registered Architect a "non-professional" and therefore those employees are eligible for overtime.
No surprise. I'll bet that's actually pretty widespread.
What's over time??
My staff only work four days a week and typically about 9.5 hrs/ day to make up the basic work week. Some work part time or half days to work around family commitments / daycare etc. Figure it out folks, it's not that hard to train the clients to not expect miracles because it creates a vicious cycle of over expectation. It's took me about 10-12 years to train the client group to understand the principles behind our office format, but they get it now and respect the staff and their private lives outside the office.
Working late this Friday but only because i went skiing this morning!
Client end management becomes much tougher if the clients are overseas...
That's great whistler, over here in the Netherlands it is way more common too, not everywhere but I worked at an office that was closed on Friday's, and I personally also work only 4 days a week, it's just part of the conversation during the hiring process. Nothing special, as if you can be productive all day every day, there's more to life than work.
The firm I work at has some practices that are quasi-shady wrt salary employees- it appears to be legal, but professionally questionable. It seems they care more about asses in seats than brains in skulls. However, the pay and bonus structure is good enough to make up for it. Its all about where you draw your boundaries.
I think all firms offer a work/life balance. Question is are you efficient and smart enough to make sure the work is done on time and before deadlines so you don't have to do overtime and have a balance in life. Many firms pay salary because they want to prevent employees from taking it easy knowing they can bill overtime hours and it also give them a reason to not do overtime. I used to work with a guy who stayed back at work every evening so he could get free dinner paid by the company for doing overtime work. I can't imagine what he'd have done if the company paid for overtime hours. He got fired after they found out.
My advice is to work in a salary based firm instead of one that pays you by the hour. It will make you find ways to get things done more efficiently and give you more free time. That is if your intention is not to earn extra money doing overtime.
I'd say it all comes down to leadership. If the leadership is strong, the firm should function properly.The guy in your story is exactly the kind of guy who spoils the market for the rest of us sane workers. I have a life and I work in a salary-based firm and I would rather pay my own dinner than staying back doing nothing just so I can claim free dinners. Good leaders should be able to see that and in a small firm, it'll be easier to catch a guy like this. In bigger firms with convoluted structure, top management might instead see him as a hard worker. The disconnect between top management and the workers 'working the floor', so to speak, is what usually causes all the corporate maladies. I have a good team but sadly the corporate culture here is that you don't say no to the boss. Once, we had a big deadline and we have actually resolved it among ourselves on how to tackle it. We could have done it without having to do overtime but suddenly, the big boss caught wind of this and she was panicking that she asked us to come to office on Saturday and Sunday. The team leader didn't dare to explain that we'd resolved the workload distribution and that is how I ended up showing up at the office on Saturday and Sunday to browse the internet.
Access, are you suggesting that part of achieving good work-life balance is the responsibility of the employee? How novel.
Um, how about when your firm gives you 360 million dollars worth of projects across the country and little to no support? It was kinda unbalancing to say the least.