Hi all, I recently got accepted to the four schools listed above for the MLA I Program and I would like some input on which program is the strongest. I'm interested in the following:
-curriculum differences
-possibility to dual/study real estate in conjunction with landscape
-starting salaries for recent grads.
-access to facility
-student life/campus vibe
-reputation abroad and alumni network
Beepbeep
Mar 1, 18 9:38 pm
Cornell and Harvard have 1 yr Real Estate programs you could combine... which have starting salaries above 100k...Plus from what have seen the H bomb goes pretty far to getting clients in the future when you start your own practice.
vitafusion
Mar 1, 18 9:44 pm
oh thanks for that info. but is it hard to get into the real estate program at gsd?
Beepbeep
Mar 1, 18 10:24 pm
Not sure I went to public school.
Beepbeep
Mar 1, 18 10:24 pm
But I imagine if you get into the arch or l.arch you will be fine.
Beepbeep
Mar 1, 18 10:25 pm
I did get into these programs but I was too poor to go
vitafusion
Mar 1, 18 11:29 pm
if you dont mind me asking what school did you go to
Dangermouse
Mar 2, 18 1:38 pm
i wouldn't say the rebe program is easy to get into but it also isn't hard...mit has an older program with a more robust alumni network so the gsd is always looking for people to add to their talent pool in rebe...that said the people i know who tried to do joint degrees struggled with the workload. i do know you'll get rejected if you say you're only applying because you want $$$
Marc Miller
Mar 2, 18 2:20 am
the re program at Cornell is run through architecture and planning and the business school(eg. Not the college of ag and life sci). Even with the new Dyson school, it’s not an easy pairing to make. Sliding in sideways is easy, it’s the schedules.
Cornell- 3 yr, thesis optional smallish cohorts (15-20), a dual in planning is possible for a little more time and a thesis project in planning. Major focus on horticulture but that’s shifting to younger faculty working on dredge (recent major award there), applied/engineered ecology and socially engaged speculation. Small faculty (good people) and building footprint. Everyone knows you nad you likely get access to all of the faculty in your time to get their take on things- if not, take an elective or knock on their door. Shop space is at a minimum. Cornell’s reputation is strong, but the brand is not as prominent as penn or gsd. The ice cream is better at Cornell (dairy is just up the street) and fall is seductive. Winters can be annoyingly unpredictable now. Given the teaching format you’ll have more access to faculty research given that it often slips into the studio in a typically non burdensome way.
gsd- Larger faculty that is more established and well branded, and some interesting junior faculty teaching at the 1st year core, and the teach in sections. 1st year is an intense ride in representation and making (good shop access). 2nd year core is major year of team thinking with scale with added social/political issues. The second year is intense because it’s a lot of team work in studio. The faculty team is also large- one coordinator and several other faculty members working with the teams. Third year is thesis.
I cannot speak to Penn or Berkeley
Marc Miller
Mar 2, 18 2:30 am
I neglected to mention that Cornell is the only ugrad ivy program. So technical courses overlap with ugrad and there are some occasions where grad/ugrad might overlap in studio but it’s not often and on a case by case instance. T
he ugrads aren’t bad though.
kristopherh
Mar 2, 18 3:15 am
Sorry, not here to answer your questions. But I also got into those schools and I'm debating between GSD and Penn. Idk about dual in real estate but I read it's pretty easy to dual in architecture or urban planning in Penn? That makes me curious if GSD allows students to also study dual after enrollment. I got into MLA as well, but I would also love to learn more about architecture or urban planning.
Dangermouse
Mar 2, 18 1:41 pm
you have to apply to your dual program at the gsd. getting in isnt a sure thing, but you've obviously got a leg up being a) there and b) a somewhat known quantity for the ad team. i know some dual mla+ud students and they seem to like the pairing
vitafusion
Mar 2, 18 3:49 pm
do you know any mla + real estate students?
Dangermouse
Mar 2, 18 4:03 pm
currently, no.
vitafusion
Mar 3, 18 9:45 pm
@kristopherh, are you going to choose penn or gsd?
kristopherh
Mar 4, 18 1:22 am
@vitafusion Probably GSD! Hope to see you there!
kristopherh
Mar 4, 18 1:28 am
@vitafusion btw I asked someone who studied in GSD and he said you can study real estate but probably only in the third year coz there's a lot of classes to take during the first two years.
ReddishEgret
Mar 2, 18 12:22 pm
Penn's program is heavy on landscape urbanism and getting more and more into urban ecology. Building off the legacies of Ian McHarg, Ann Spirn, and James Corner, the chair Richard Weller has been pushing the department to take on deep landscape/societal issues like encroaching urbanization on global biodiversity hotspots (see Atlas for the End of the World and LA+ Journal). Students generally don't do a thesis although they have the option to. First year studios are smaller scales, like a garden or a park. Second year studios are regional and urban design. You get to pick your third year studio.
A few design students take real estate/business/development classes at Wharton. It's an option, but it's more common to collaborate with architecture and urban planning.
Starting salaries depend a bit more on the firm and previous experience than the school. The past few years seemed to range around mid 50s to mid 60s. Most of my class ended up getting the job they wanted.
All the professors are very available and put a ton of time into studios. Richard Weller encourages meetings with all the students and has an open door policy. It's not a factory. All the faculty are there for you.
The facility is the second biggest downside. It's cramped and there are no places to take a break. The Fisher Fine Arts Library next door is a good place to take a breather. The biggest downside is the cost.
Student life varies class to class. It's an intense experience. Some classes bond and others don't. It's not easy. You won't have much time outside of classwork and studio.
Good luck!
vitafusion
Mar 2, 18 3:50 pm
how easy is it to get the real estate certificate as a mla student at penndesign? and also is it true that studio culture is a little more relaxed and supportive vs. gsd which is cutthroat
vitafusion
Mar 3, 18 9:44 pm
did you end up going to penn?
ReddishEgret
Mar 4, 18 6:07 pm
Yes. I was in the three year MLA program.
ReddishEgret
Mar 4, 18 6:18 pm
I can't speak for the gsd. Penn's culture is supportive but I wouldn't say it's relaxed. They will push you to your limits and then some, but it's because they want to see you grow and thrive.
Marc Miller
Mar 2, 18 12:36 pm
another place to look at salaries would be the ASLA and graduate survey. The downside is that students self report so the information can be incomplete.
Dangermouse
Mar 2, 18 2:03 pm
gsd:
-curriculum differences
I didn't apply to penn, berkeley or cornell so i cannot speak comparatively. the gsd curriculum is changing--go watch anita's lecture "On the Limits of Process: The Case for Precision in Landscape" if you want to know more about how she thinks landscape ought to be taught. i went through the existing core sequence and as marc mentioned first year is heavy on representation, second year heavy on process+systems in a group setting. the current first year coordinator, Silvia Benedito, is wonderful. second year is currently a bit of a mess because no one owns or really likes the pedagogy of Charles Waldheim's old studio and Pierre is, well, Pierre--for better or worse. Its still a good experience but there's less direction from up on high, which gives you more latitude in your work
-possibility to dual/study real estate in conjunction with landscape
totally possible. you will need to apply for the real estate program.
-starting salaries for recent grads.
60k average according to career services
-access to facility
exceptional. you get the GSD and all of harvard through cross registration and simply being on campus. MIT faculty are a bit tougher to work with being at a different university but you can cross register there, which will give you an in.
-student life/campus vibe
you will live in gund. it is honestly the best studio space of the four programs you listed. lots of light, lots of energy. space is limited.
its harvard. you get the gsd plus the college plus HLS, HBS, Divinity, Ed, Engineering...they all have talks which you can attend. Classes you can cross register for. boston is a nice place to be a student.
-reputation abroad and alumni network
the h-bomb is probably the most recognizable brand of the four, but you won't be hurting going to penn, for example. all of the four schools share faculty, guest critics, lecturers etc. tons of cross pollination. so the alumni networks are great in any case.
vitafusion
Mar 2, 18 3:47 pm
thanks so much for that info. did you go to/are at gsd? additional question. you said that it is possible to cross register for class, does that mean it's electives? and i've heard that the first year doesn't have space in the curriculum for extra classes other than the MLA core curriculum? am i wrong?
vitafusion
Mar 2, 18 3:49 pm
okay, if MLA grads are averaging 60k, then real estate mdes would be a lot higher? and it doesn't seem very common at all for MLA to do a dual in real estate (they seem to have clashing ideologies) I wonder about the difficulty in doing a dual with mDes and MLA. also, would it take extra time to finish both degrees? coming from a mostly art/sociology background, i feel like my analytical stats aren't up there to qualify for real estate. is there anything i could do in the meantime to get that extra leg up
Dangermouse
Mar 2, 18 4:02 pm
cross registration courses do fill an elective, and you only have space for electives in the fourth, fifth, and sixth semesters (MLA I).
rebe students probably are making more than 60k. i'd guess around 90-110k upon graduation. i'm not sure the ideologies clash, per se. its a real estate program taught at a design school, the point is to produce real estate professionals who are trained somewhat in design pedagogy; in other words, real estate professionals with the culture of a designer, not vice versa.
it is hard--frank's real estate finance class is basically another studio. it may take you an extra semester or even another year, it depends somewhat on your ability to work 100+ hours per week for consecutive semesters. already the core 3 studio demands north of 90 hours per week simply to stay afloat.
analytical ability? overrated. you're going to be building models in excel, r, maybe some sql work. you won't be doing research on novel statistical methods. its a professional program, the point is to teach you skills which you lack. don't stress it.
vitafusion
Mar 2, 18 4:11 pm
the main thing i'm looking for is a MLA program that will allow me to break into development. it's seeming like if i go to gsd, my chances of getting a real estate degree are lower vs. if i went to penn and just got the certificate. agree?
vitafusion
Mar 2, 18 4:11 pm
and also, what degree are you doing at gsd right now?
Dangermouse
Mar 2, 18 4:20 pm
this is pure speculation but i'd guess that a certificate will be valued less by employers than an actual degree.
vitafusion
Mar 2, 18 4:23 pm
i feel like maybe that's true. with a harvard degree, might be easier to start off at a developer firm and build up from there even without a real estate degree. agree?
Dangermouse
Mar 2, 18 8:00 pm
no, i don't agree. no one is going to hire you just because you went to harvard, especially not in the real estate world, where hiring is driven almost exclusively through networking.
vitafusion
Mar 3, 18 9:12 pm
BUMP
still need input on harvard vs. penn
Marc Miller
Mar 3, 18 9:38 pm
Serious question: why do you even need the MLA if you’re set of the highest rate of return for your education?
vitafusion
Mar 3, 18 9:41 pm
oh that's definitely not the only thing i'm concerned about, i'm also curious about studio culture differences and curriculum.
Marc Miller
Mar 4, 18 9:05 pm
But so much of what you seem to be interested is about development and not design. Seems to me that it's a waste of time to spend all the money just to become familiar with studio culture and curriculum.
untitled123
Mar 30, 18 11:56 am
I am also deciding between PennDesign and GSD for MLA I. I strongly prefer Penn for more intangible reasons (community, faculty/student relationship, engagement of the students etc) and I think they produce stronger work. However, though both have offered generous scholarships, GSD gave twice as much (nearly full tuition). Would it be dumb not to accept? (Tuition would be paid via loans...)
In response to the initial question. FYI Penn also has a real estate dual degree option I believe-- and at least definitely a certificate program through Wharton.
Dangermouse
Mar 31, 18 12:49 am
if you call richard weller and relay verbatim what you said above, chances are penn will increase their offer and might even match the gsd if you're a strong candidate.
Hi all, I recently got accepted to the four schools listed above for the MLA I Program and I would like some input on which program is the strongest. I'm interested in the following:
-curriculum differences
-possibility to dual/study real estate in conjunction with landscape
-starting salaries for recent grads.
-access to facility
-student life/campus vibe
-reputation abroad and alumni network
Cornell and Harvard have 1 yr Real Estate programs you could combine... which have starting salaries above 100k...Plus from what have seen the H bomb goes pretty far to getting clients in the future when you start your own practice.
oh thanks for that info. but is it hard to get into the real estate program at gsd?
Not sure I went to public school.
But I imagine if you get into the arch or l.arch you will be fine.
I did get into these programs but I was too poor to go
if you dont mind me asking what school did you go to
i wouldn't say the rebe program is easy to get into but it also isn't hard...mit has an older program with a more robust alumni network so the gsd is always looking for people to add to their talent pool in rebe...that said the people i know who tried to do joint degrees struggled with the workload. i do know you'll get rejected if you say you're only applying because you want $$$
the re program at Cornell is run through architecture and planning and the business school(eg. Not the college of ag and life sci). Even with the new Dyson school, it’s not an easy pairing to make. Sliding in sideways is easy, it’s the schedules.
Cornell- 3 yr, thesis optional smallish cohorts (15-20), a dual in planning is possible for a little more time and a thesis project in planning. Major focus on horticulture but that’s shifting to younger faculty working on dredge (recent major award there), applied/engineered ecology and socially engaged speculation. Small faculty (good people) and building footprint. Everyone knows you nad you likely get access to all of the faculty in your time to get their take on things- if not, take an elective or knock on their door. Shop space is at a minimum. Cornell’s reputation is strong, but the brand is not as prominent as penn or gsd. The ice cream is better at Cornell (dairy is just up the street) and fall is seductive. Winters can be annoyingly unpredictable now. Given the teaching format you’ll have more access to faculty research given that it often slips into the studio in a typically non burdensome way.
gsd- Larger faculty that is more established and well branded, and some interesting junior faculty teaching at the 1st year core, and the teach in sections. 1st year is an intense ride in representation and making (good shop access). 2nd year core is major year of team thinking with scale with added social/political issues. The second year is intense because it’s a lot of team work in studio. The faculty team is also large- one coordinator and several other faculty members working with the teams. Third year is thesis.
I cannot speak to Penn or Berkeley
I neglected to mention that Cornell is the only ugrad ivy program. So technical courses overlap with ugrad and there are some occasions where grad/ugrad might overlap in studio but it’s not often and on a case by case instance. T he ugrads aren’t bad though.
Sorry, not here to answer your questions. But I also got into those schools and I'm debating between GSD and Penn. Idk about dual in real estate but I read it's pretty easy to dual in architecture or urban planning in Penn? That makes me curious if GSD allows students to also study dual after enrollment. I got into MLA as well, but I would also love to learn more about architecture or urban planning.
you have to apply to your dual program at the gsd. getting in isnt a sure thing, but you've obviously got a leg up being a) there and b) a somewhat known quantity for the ad team. i know some dual mla+ud students and they seem to like the pairing
do you know any mla + real estate students?
currently, no.
@kristopherh, are you going to choose penn or gsd?
@vitafusion Probably GSD! Hope to see you there!
@vitafusion btw I asked someone who studied in GSD and he said you can study real estate but probably only in the third year coz there's a lot of classes to take during the first two years.
Penn's program is heavy on landscape urbanism and getting more and more into urban ecology. Building off the legacies of Ian McHarg, Ann Spirn, and James Corner, the chair Richard Weller has been pushing the department to take on deep landscape/societal issues like encroaching urbanization on global biodiversity hotspots (see Atlas for the End of the World and LA+ Journal). Students generally don't do a thesis although they have the option to. First year studios are smaller scales, like a garden or a park. Second year studios are regional and urban design. You get to pick your third year studio.
A few design students take real estate/business/development classes at Wharton. It's an option, but it's more common to collaborate with architecture and urban planning.
Starting salaries depend a bit more on the firm and previous experience than the school. The past few years seemed to range around mid 50s to mid 60s. Most of my class ended up getting the job they wanted.
All the professors are very available and put a ton of time into studios. Richard Weller encourages meetings with all the students and has an open door policy. It's not a factory. All the faculty are there for you.
The facility is the second biggest downside. It's cramped and there are no places to take a break. The Fisher Fine Arts Library next door is a good place to take a breather. The biggest downside is the cost.
Student life varies class to class. It's an intense experience. Some classes bond and others don't. It's not easy. You won't have much time outside of classwork and studio.
Good luck!
how easy is it to get the real estate certificate as a mla student at penndesign? and also is it true that studio culture is a little more relaxed and supportive vs. gsd which is cutthroat
did you end up going to penn?
Yes. I was in the three year MLA program.
I can't speak for the gsd. Penn's culture is supportive but I wouldn't say it's relaxed. They will push you to your limits and then some, but it's because they want to see you grow and thrive.
another place to look at salaries would be the ASLA and graduate survey. The downside is that students self report so the information can be incomplete.
gsd:
-curriculum differences
I didn't apply to penn, berkeley or cornell so i cannot speak comparatively. the gsd curriculum is changing--go watch anita's lecture "On the Limits of Process: The Case for Precision in Landscape" if you want to know more about how she thinks landscape ought to be taught. i went through the existing core sequence and as marc mentioned first year is heavy on representation, second year heavy on process+systems in a group setting. the current first year coordinator, Silvia Benedito, is wonderful. second year is currently a bit of a mess because no one owns or really likes the pedagogy of Charles Waldheim's old studio and Pierre is, well, Pierre--for better or worse. Its still a good experience but there's less direction from up on high, which gives you more latitude in your work
-possibility to dual/study real estate in conjunction with landscape
totally possible. you will need to apply for the real estate program.
-starting salaries for recent grads.
60k average according to career services
-access to facility
exceptional. you get the GSD and all of harvard through cross registration and simply being on campus. MIT faculty are a bit tougher to work with being at a different university but you can cross register there, which will give you an in.
-student life/campus vibe
you will live in gund. it is honestly the best studio space of the four programs you listed. lots of light, lots of energy. space is limited.
its harvard. you get the gsd plus the college plus HLS, HBS, Divinity, Ed, Engineering...they all have talks which you can attend. Classes you can cross register for. boston is a nice place to be a student.
-reputation abroad and alumni network
the h-bomb is probably the most recognizable brand of the four, but you won't be hurting going to penn, for example. all of the four schools share faculty, guest critics, lecturers etc. tons of cross pollination. so the alumni networks are great in any case.
thanks so much for that info. did you go to/are at gsd? additional question. you said that it is possible to cross register for class, does that mean it's electives? and i've heard that the first year doesn't have space in the curriculum for extra classes other than the MLA core curriculum? am i wrong?
okay, if MLA grads are averaging 60k, then real estate mdes would be a lot higher? and it doesn't seem very common at all for MLA to do a dual in real estate (they seem to have clashing ideologies) I wonder about the difficulty in doing a dual with mDes and MLA. also, would it take extra time to finish both degrees? coming from a mostly art/sociology background, i feel like my analytical stats aren't up there to qualify for real estate. is there anything i could do in the meantime to get that extra leg up
cross registration courses do fill an elective, and you only have space for electives in the fourth, fifth, and sixth semesters (MLA I).
rebe students probably are making more than 60k. i'd guess around 90-110k upon graduation. i'm not sure the ideologies clash, per se. its a real estate program taught at a design school, the point is to produce real estate professionals who are trained somewhat in design pedagogy; in other words, real estate professionals with the culture of a designer, not vice versa.
it is hard--frank's real estate finance class is basically another studio. it may take you an extra semester or even another year, it depends somewhat on your ability to work 100+ hours per week for consecutive semesters. already the core 3 studio demands north of 90 hours per week simply to stay afloat.
analytical ability? overrated. you're going to be building models in excel, r, maybe some sql work. you won't be doing research on novel statistical methods. its a professional program, the point is to teach you skills which you lack. don't stress it.
the main thing i'm looking for is a MLA program that will allow me to break into development. it's seeming like if i go to gsd, my chances of getting a real estate degree are lower vs. if i went to penn and just got the certificate. agree?
and also, what degree are you doing at gsd right now?
this is pure speculation but i'd guess that a certificate will be valued less by employers than an actual degree.
i feel like maybe that's true. with a harvard degree, might be easier to start off at a developer firm and build up from there even without a real estate degree. agree?
no, i don't agree. no one is going to hire you just because you went to harvard, especially not in the real estate world, where hiring is driven almost exclusively through networking.
BUMP
still need input on harvard vs. penn
Serious question: why do you even need the MLA if you’re set of the highest rate of return for your education?
oh that's definitely not the only thing i'm concerned about, i'm also curious about studio culture differences and curriculum.
But so much of what you seem to be interested is about development and not design. Seems to me that it's a waste of time to spend all the money just to become familiar with studio culture and curriculum.
I am also deciding between PennDesign and GSD for MLA I. I strongly prefer Penn for more intangible reasons (community, faculty/student relationship, engagement of the students etc) and I think they produce stronger work. However, though both have offered generous scholarships, GSD gave twice as much (nearly full tuition). Would it be dumb not to accept? (Tuition would be paid via loans...)
In response to the initial question. FYI Penn also has a real estate dual degree option I believe-- and at least definitely a certificate program through Wharton.
if you call richard weller and relay verbatim what you said above, chances are penn will increase their offer and might even match the gsd if you're a strong candidate.