I am a third year undergrad. While I have had many really great professors and mentors there have been a handful of really bad ones as with most things you do in life. I am curious if there are any people out there that teach that know why many feel the need to be so negative. I have noticed that when negative professors come to our school, the students start to have a similar negative attitude and start to think its okay to be unkind to others. Yes, the professional world is unkind, yes the competition is great, yes this gives off the vibe that you are strong and dominant in the field but at the end of the day, were all just people and being assholes to everyone doesn't equal great architecture.
Mr_Wiggin
Feb 27, 18 6:10 pm
I wouldn't necessarily extend your judgement of your experience with the academics onto those of us that practice. From the outside looking in, I think many teachers get pretty beat-down after years in the classroom especially those that teach in the design disciplines.
thisisnotmyname
Feb 27, 18 6:41 pm
There are assholes in firms as well. I worked in flyover country at a fancy, published, and award-winning firm where the principals felt the need to act like assholes at all times. They appeared to have an inferiority complex because they were not in NYC or LA. Their design work, while showered with awards, was also very unoriginal, and I think the firm principals secretly knew it.
In contrast these wannabes, I spent time many years ago with truly great architects like Richard Meier and Paul Rudolph, and others, all of whom where very polite and down-to-earth people.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 27, 18 8:28 pm
I can verify the presence of fancy, published, award-winning fly-over a-holes. New Yorkers are sweethearts next to these guys.
germansent
Dec 17, 21 5:44 pm
NYC architects are pretty smug too, at least the older ones who just build the same soulless crap for developers. I don't think every firm is like that in NYC, but the assholes are everywhere you look.
citizen
Feb 27, 18 8:55 pm
Mr Wiggin's advice is correct.
The density of smugfucks seems to be much higher in academia than the profession in general. (Thank goodness.) But in my view, it's not the world-weary emeriti who are the worst offenders, it's the following generation (or two). A fancy sheepskin, a theoretical competition win, and a complete absence of good humor seem to be badges of honor for twits who feel good only when insulting students who aren't experienced enough to push back. Bullying, I think it's called in real life. In architecture school, they call it sarcasm.
Personal insecurity is the root cause, I believe.
citizen
Feb 27, 18 9:32 pm
^ Fortunately, there are some really great, helpful, and thoughtful architects in teaching as well.
germansent
Dec 17, 21 5:46 pm
far and few in NYC unfortunately
randomised
Feb 28, 18 2:51 am
Because people are assholes...and can build entire careers on being an asshole
(and the best part is that Leary stole the bit from CK, like a true asshole made a career by stealing other people's work, but because Leary stole from an asshole, who cares, right? He would make a great architect...)
randomised
Feb 28, 18 2:54 am
I personally never had to deal with such teachers by the way, or at least my work didn't invite assholery...who knows. People can be like sharks if there's a drop of blood in the water, or they hand you a band aid.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 28, 18 1:39 pm
Not a Leary fan but that was great.
geezertect
Feb 28, 18 7:56 am
The behavior is vicious because the stakes are small.
Donna Sink
Feb 28, 18 8:03 am
“I got your rude architects right here, pal.”
Sorry, can’t resist.
Every field has jerks, best to just try not to pay them attention.
Aldea
Mar 13, 18 5:41 am
Donna, can I know the reference? It's ubiquitous yet I can't seem to find it on google.
Donna Sink
Mar 14, 18 1:17 pm
Hi Aldea, it's not a reference I would expect anyone to know and it's too long a story for how dumb it is, but: back around 2001 Philadelphia (where I lived) was about to debut a new City slogan that they had paid a consultant tons of money for. Prior to the official unveiling of the slogan the only leak to the press was that the slogan was 7 words long. So the local alt weekly paper came up with potential slogans to fit. "An emergency room conveniently on every corner" "Free dumpster juice in every sidewalk gutter" and my personal favorite "Got your Liberty Bell right here, pal". It made me laugh so hard I've been using it ever since.
Aldea
Mar 16, 18 11:42 am
Oh. I was referring to the format " I've got your X right here pal". English is not my first language so I assumed it was a pop-culture reference.
Donna Sink
Mar 18, 18 1:18 pm
Sorry, I misunderstood, and yes, you're right! The phrase "I've got your X right here, pal" is a general pop culture reference. I don't know of any specific first time it was used but it generally is representative of tough guys from New Jersey or Philadelphia or New York - truck driver types, or guys who work in a warehouse or doing labor. But I don't know when or where it first started.
Aldea
Mar 24, 18 12:52 am
I see. So it's one of those age-old sayings which have lost their origins.
Non Sequitur
Feb 28, 18 8:11 am
I'm a friendly jerk.... unless I'm reviewing shop drawings. Then I'm just a regular jerk.
geezertect
Feb 28, 18 8:46 am
Law, finance, entertainment, etc. are all much worse than architecture.
Finjohn
Feb 28, 18 1:05 pm
"It is written that a tree shall be known by it's fruit. So you shouldn't judge the whole forest by the fruit of a few bad trees." ~ Me
I don't think we should ever label or stereotype any such large groups. I have met many architects and talk to them on a daily basis. Some are rude some are very friendly. And if most people had to deal with what they have to deal with sometimes (having GC's, sub-contractors, owners, manufacturers etc. all yelling at them the same day, time sensitive deadlines, trying to make the impossible possible, etc.) I imagine they would be rude at times also.
I did think it is was ironic when a brand new intern architect acted arrogant to me last week and then right after that I communicated with famous architect Ronald A. Shaw from the Caribbean and he was so cordial and humble to me. Perhaps that has something to do with his success.
sameolddoctor
Feb 28, 18 1:29 pm
Might be an East Coast thing?
Miles Jaffe
Feb 28, 18 1:41 pm
Hey, fuck you. New York is the best.
Donna Sink
Feb 28, 18 4:12 pm
LOL lovely, Miles.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 28, 18 4:53 pm
New York is the only place where I've been invited to sit with strangers at a cafe because there isn't enough seating. Try sitting at the same cafe table as a stranger in Nebraska. They'll be like, there is another town with another cafe 10 miles down the road, get going.
geezertect
Feb 28, 18 5:03 pm
Yeah, but that's the nice thing about fly-over places like Nebraska. They aren't anthills where you can't find a table of your own in a restaurant. To each their own.
Louie
Feb 28, 18 2:18 pm
Theirs is small!
zonker
Feb 28, 18 6:48 pm
I've seen many rude architects - every place I worked, there is at least 2
It's started with Jurors in school
joseffischer
Mar 8, 18 8:53 am
I did some juror work for a time. One of my grad student friends asked me to be the "mean" one. I felt a little put-off and surprised, and said, look I don't get what you're saying and I don't know how to sound "mean". She followed it up with, you know, just how honest and blunt you can be with your criticism. It definitely made me think about some things and change tactics.
JLC-1
Feb 28, 18 7:04 pm
have you seen the white house lately?
zonker
Feb 28, 18 8:47 pm
They get condescending and speak in archibabble - and look down on people, they perceive as lessor -
zonker
Mar 1, 18 12:07 am
You have to be able to handle criticism - one crit in particular, my prof invited one if his friends, a real hard ass dressed in black - he got in all of put faces - being this was in San Diego(USMC and SEALS) he proceeded to dress us down line some Gunnery Sargent Thomas Hartmann - "I'm here to tell you that you made the biggest mistake of your life studying architecture"
rcz1001
Aug 24, 20 11:47 pm
Gunnery Sergeant Thomas Hartmann portrayed by real-life Staff Sergeant R. Lee Ermey (ok, he was honorarily promoted to Gunnery Sergeant given his long-time service and support of the armed forces of the U.S. and his due qualifications anyway. Anyway, aside from that, it is not surprising some architect professors doing the hard-ass drill sergeant crap but if shit really hit the fan, he would be hiding. Doesn't surprise me any.
zonker
Mar 1, 18 12:37 am
You have to be able to handle criticism - one crit in particular, my prof invited one if his friends, a real hard ass dressed in black - he got in all of our faces - being this was in San Diego(USMC and SEALS) he proceeded to dress us down like some Gunnery Sargent Thomas Hartmann from "Full Metal Jacket" - "I'm here to tell you that you made the biggest mistake of your life studying architecture" - and this was after 48 hours - no sleep
I've had co-workers, where we would take the elevator down from SOM, to the street and get into these heated arguments on Market Street - Skidmore had it share - on particular P.A. dressed me down at the top of his lungs "Xenakis? That is bullshit" so loud, you could hear him on both both floors and damn near all the way to Wurster Hall in Berkeley - co-workers would IM me calling me names and saying I was on the road to ruin with Revit - then the recession hit - everyone remembered who was a jerk
It's best to be nice, the person who you are rude to, may show up on the other side of the interview table
zonker
Mar 1, 18 12:53 am
Some co-workers(notice I don't use the word colleague) can be impatient, condescending and speak in archibabble or talk to each other in Hindi or Russian, Farsi, Mandarin and Tagalog so I can't hear what they are saying - it got do bad, that our CEO told us that only English to be spoken in the office -
zonker
Mar 1, 18 1:15 am
The thing I hate more than anything, is when a team lead, PA or PM, gives you direction - and you do just that - then they come back and say "that's not what I had in mind, that's not what I told you to do - you did it wrong"
Then I say that's exactly what you told me, "I never said that"
randomised
Mar 2, 18 11:08 am
Just make notes and ask them to confirm before you start doing what they want you to do.
randomised
Mar 3, 18 1:10 am
Is there actually something you don't hate about your job or architecture in general?
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 1, 18 2:04 am
I'm passive aggressive more so than a-holey, less drama that way.
Thayer-D
Mar 1, 18 5:46 pm
Part of it may be the culture of academia celebrating the genius of some well known assholes. That being said, there are asshole carpenters, contractors, and the lot, so who knows. Everybody gets insecure and hides behind their perceived status. It doesn't help that we are taught to look down our noses at pedestrian tastes, instead of trying to understand them.
Miles Jaffe
Mar 1, 18 7:16 pm
We're not rude, we're just smugly superior.
Deal with it.
citizen
Mar 3, 18 1:49 pm
That this post emanates from architecture school is not a coincidence. As noted above, every profession has its share of douche nozzles. But a higher concentration seem to flock to academia, for better or worse.
Thayer-D
Mar 4, 18 7:09 am
Having to unquestioningly accept a lot of stuff that is patently bullshit gives a lot of room for assholes to perpetuate their own personal bullshit. Once you've already had to renounce your common sense, it's more difficult to effectively deal with bullies, who's whole premise is bullshit
.
x-jla
Mar 4, 18 10:59 am
It’s funny, I remember noticing a clear line in academia...the theory wing was always more smug and arrogant than the history/archeology/building science wing. Opinions often carry a certain defensiveness while factual hard information doesn’t seem to really need
it.
citizen
Mar 4, 18 2:28 pm
Yes... part of the problem (at least at the undergrad level) is that most 18-year olds are still kids, and it takes time to realize it's okay to stand up to and/or resist
the smug dolt spewing nonsense.
Thayer-D
Mar 5, 18 10:20 am
To your point jla-x, that smugness comes from insecurity, the knowledge that what you're doing is so arbitrary, it involves spinning yarns rather than looking at empirical evidence. Kids either join them, relegate themselves to the "practical" end of the profession, or simply wait, hopefully without getting too cynical.
zonker
Mar 3, 18 2:14 pm
The key is not to react - that's being a professional - don't be some thin skinned Trumpitect
zonker
Mar 3, 18 2:20 pm
Be like Donna Sink - she had it together
zonker
Mar 3, 18 2:21 pm
Donna Sink has it together - not had, that's a typo - Sorry Donna
The question was why is everyone so rude. Sensitivity is a desired trait. Rudeness is not. Try again.
shellarchitect
Mar 6, 18 9:45 am
the question is so broad as to be nearly meaningless. A similar question might be "why are white cars so rusty?" My advice is to do the best you can. During crits, listen to the content of the critique and don't take anything personally. Sensitivity is "nice" but not if it is a distraction.
randomised
Mar 6, 18 12:47 pm
Well, to be honest, there is a real push nowadays to ban a certain use of language or content and even towards true censorship because things don't align with current political correctness, whatever that may be. Even in academia debate is being avoided. Or children's books are banned. There simply is a current trend of hypersensitivity and banning dissident voices and silencing people, just a fact...But that has nothing to do with rude architects and people being assholes of course, although I find it very rude to not allow certain speakers at debates and those are the real assholes, the people who decide for me that I should be protected from other points of view. Different discussion though...
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 6, 18 12:58 pm
totally different thing..
randomised
Mar 7, 18 7:30 am
Yep, different thing...but you can't even give constructive feedback on wannabe architects' portfolio's without being labelled an asshole any more. So yes, architects just like other people can be rude a-f, but also many more things are labeled as rude, offensive and inappropriate these days, which results in more assholes because the criteria have changed, or something, I don't know.
citizen
Mar 6, 18 2:04 pm
^ These things are related, though not the same things.
There've always been a-holes and sensitive people. It's just something to deal with, each on her/his own.
But there's a culture being stimulated now, especially on campus, where sensitivity is being actively encouraged and grievances cultivated. (I get emails from the administration weekly with the word "micro-aggressions" in the subject line.) I had a conversation with a (female Muslim immigrant) colleague yesterday who said, "What the hell is going on? I'm afraid to say anything to anyone."
So the climate in which a-holery and other behaviors (including benign) occur is a-changing.
x-jla
Mar 8, 18 11:38 am
I can’t stomach what Universities have become. The culture of “safe space” and “micro aggression” is completely self destructive and pathetic. In my day a “micro aggression” was getting beat up by a group of angry midgets.
randomised
Mar 8, 18 1:35 pm
*little people
x-jla
Mar 8, 18 1:44 pm
Oh, I guess Dwarf is the preferred word.
randomised
Mar 24, 18 5:05 am
In Dutch little people are/were called Lilliputter (Lilliputian) after the island in Gulliver's Travels, think they're not too happy with that anymore either.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 6, 18 6:17 pm
Today I learned that people are rude when they don't have their shit together. Is that a microaggression?
citizen
Mar 6, 18 6:39 pm
I think the term for your reaction is "perfectly reasonable."
zonker
Mar 6, 18 7:02 pm
Tinbeary
Before architecture, I was an industrial design major, and there was this one prof. who was rude "Don't burn my clock" was a favorite of his - he kinda looked like Hugh Hefner, except he didn't want women in his class, or anyone older than 28 - do one day, a bunch of students filed a complaint with Ca. State Univ. chancellors office - in two weeks, they told him to "pack his tools" and get out - I saw him working at a frame shop in Los Gatos
He didn't have his shit together
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 6, 18 7:42 pm
Why do architects swear so much?
b3tadine[sutures]
Mar 6, 18 11:20 pm
It's fucking Tuesday.
randomised
Mar 7, 18 7:31 am
No that's Wednesday!
geezertect
Mar 7, 18 7:29 pm
From watching too many Mafia movies.
curtkram
Mar 7, 18 9:39 pm
that man has game
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 7, 18 11:17 pm
Yes, the baggy T-shirt with the stains. I have one from fucking Johnsonite! So hot.
I was just told to shut up for solving a problem that apparently needed to be solved later this week, not now. One point for the RUDES! Like I said, overwhelmed makes people rude. Can't think, so rude.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 8, 18 6:05 pm
40 minute conversation on why there was no time to listen to my proposal. Which would have taken 5 minutes to look at. Bang head on wall. Repeat.
Civility, like having good manners has been eradicated by the media, sports, and kardashian stars. Our civilization is in a race to lowest common denominator.
Welcome to the New World Order of Facebook.
randomised
Mar 10, 18 1:17 pm
Nope, it's people doing it to other people...has nothing to do with media, sports or Kardashians.
citizen
Mar 10, 18 2:59 pm
It's both. Human nature, plus so many more venues in which to act out its worst tendencies.
randomised
Mar 11, 18 5:42 am
I think those are just lame excuses, let's blame the media, Kim Kardashian or the Patriots, it's people who decide to act out their worst tendencies and nobody else.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 11, 18 10:12 am
I think it's depression culture. If you show happiness, somebody will do their best to remind you that it is irresponsible to be ok ... how can you be ok? there are heavy metals in your food! factory farms! landfills! children with cancer! north korea! federal debt! car accidents! pants that are too tight! socks that get lost in the dryer! homeless people! kids that need new shoes before they outgrew their last ones! utility companies that burn coal! people in africa without clean water! homeschoolers in kansas teaching creationism! life is terrible! And don't try to say it's ok and change the subject because that'll really get them, are you irresponsible?... Americans need a little more buddha in their lives.
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 11, 18 10:32 am
I haven't watched TV in over 8 years. Might be more like 10 now. (who are the kardashians anyways?) Those teens are smart. Peace of mind is where it's at.
randomised
Mar 13, 18 3:03 pm
Not too much Buddha though, those Buddhists can also be major assholes...
Agree. I have a fascination with stand up comedy...it just seems like the most difficult thing to do.
randomised
Mar 24, 18 3:10 pm
I love a good bit.
Everyday Architect
Aug 19, 20 4:14 pm
Interesting watching the bit that jla posted up there after having vigorously discussed gun-ownership with him in other threads. The last part starting around 1:24 especially ...
I know this is a late post. 30 year architect here and it's been my experience that angry, egotistical practicing architects are eithet just naturally angry egotists or it's a defense mechanism for a fragile ego. Design criticism starts the second pencil hits paper and continues until the building gets demolished due to old age.
Everyday Architect
Aug 18, 20 8:31 pm
You created an account in 2015, your first post in 2020 is on a thread that no one had commented on since 2018. Cool first post. Don't wait another 5 years to participate again. Maybe comment on a current thread next?
b3tadine[sutures]
Aug 18, 20 9:06 pm
I'm angry, you know why? It's 30 plus years practicing architects that figured it was easier not to give a shit, instead of fighting for the profession, fighting for equity, diversity, and for the right have a well established fee structure. Oh, did I forget to mention how older architects decided to lay across the railroad tracks and let contractors drive up and down on their bodies?
Non Sequitur
Aug 18, 20 10:04 pm
I'm angry because the craft brew I just poured myself is one of those weird smoky/peaty things. I want my scotch peaty... not my beer.
bowling_ball
Aug 19, 20 3:10 am
NS, I feel ya. I'm angry because the craft brew I just grabbed from the fridge is a sour, and I wasn't expecting that. It's not bad, I just wasn't expecting it (Parallel 49's Bodhisattva FWIW)
ScottatSTa
Aug 18, 20 11:27 pm
b3, I'm pretty sure architects have been laying down on the tracks since the end of the Master Builder. Thus the rise in the architect-led design-build firm. I honestly wish that I had the time and energy to start one myself (my wife's a builder, but no way am I going down that road). As far as the rest of your comments, to address them from a personal standpoint or professionally, we would have to spend several long evenings discussing over some peaty scotch.
It looks like you've been angry since at least March 6 of '18. What have you done for the last two years to fix the problems you see? Maybe the answer to that is the reply to your accusations as well as the answer to this thread.
citizen
Aug 19, 20 12:10 am
I misread the title as nude architects and thought, Hey! It's my car and my and my neighborhood. Mind your own beeswax.
Drawn in
Aug 19, 20 6:50 am
Easy, cause we're all incredibly, self absorbed, self righteous, assholes....... duuuuu'h.
Non Sequitur
Aug 19, 20 7:27 am
Excuse me, but I’m a socially conscious asshole.
Drawn in
Aug 19, 20 7:32 am
Oh my god....... even worse...... : )
Non Sequitur
Aug 19, 20 7:34 am
It is.
zonker
Aug 19, 20 1:05 pm
Some people demonstrate the following:
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.
Everyday Architect
Aug 19, 20 3:06 pm
"Some people" ... ? I'd say "most architects."
atelier nobody
Aug 19, 20 3:26 pm
Because fuck you, that's why.
proto
Aug 19, 20 4:25 pm
did somebody win this thread yet?
Drawn in
Aug 19, 20 5:06 pm
Atelier nobody is in the lead right now IMO.
apscoradiales
Aug 19, 20 4:57 pm
Rude manners are not exclusive to architects. Anyone who wasn't brought up properly by their parents is prone to being rude to others.
Manners are not taught in school or on the street or on the job; they're being taught by parents when one is very young.
No amount of education can fix bad manners; only mom and dad can.
archi_dude
Aug 20, 20 9:35 am
However when I switched to CM. I noticed aside from an ornery foreman and an older owners rep, the majority of smug rudeness came from the designers.
Taso
Aug 24, 20 10:27 pm
I’m only less than 10 years in this industry, but tbh I feel the same thing - architects are generally rude than other disciplines. I’ve never feel the same way when I communicate with engineers, interiors, graphics, landscapes. They (at least, sound) respectful to each other and act like we are in a professional world. On the other hand, architects, they have no respect to other people although we are in the same team like they will point out mistakes in front of clients or big boss, also call you with video chat without asking in advance, asking for an immediate answer even during sick leave, etc. And they also love blame games. There are so many I can think of but my hands are tired to type. If these are all because they are trained in this way in school, I’m sorry but I hope they can wake up and bring back their true kind personality. Otherwise it must be affecting to their non-work life too.
Non Sequitur
Aug 24, 20 10:47 pm
Find a better employer.
rcz1001
Aug 24, 20 11:29 pm
Maybe in the U.S. or some schools tend to have a higher selection rate of introverts and egotistical assholes. They sometimes have a higher penchant to pick those personality types. There maybe reasons for that which can be observed. Eventually, those selected become licensed architects but those egotistical assholes are still egotistical assholes but just with an architect license which in turn swells that ego even more.
As for the other professions, they have a different culture. This is partly due to the history of the architectural profession and the personality types of the starchitects so this becomes the model of what an "architect" is supposed to be. Some of those introverts turn into egotistical assholes because that is what "architects are supposed to be". It's taught through the culture. The engineering profession and some of those other professions don't have the Frank Lloyd Wright, Howard Roark (fictional character), and gang of famous starchitects and fictional representations of architects perpetuates the stereotype of big ego primadonna because of the architecture profession's association with the high fine arts and primadonna personalities like you might even see in the fashion industry.
However, the truth is, most architects are not that way. There is just a higher percentage of egotistical primadonna because people follow these role models and become that way. It is a taught cultural thing that is toxic and we have more of that in this profession than in engineering and some of the other professions. Do keep in mind that it is still a stereotype but there is a grain of truth to it and the popularized role-models are imitated to the point where the imitators end up being just like the egotistical primadonna role-models that they worship.
Most of them don't actually become "stars". They just become disillusioned egotistical primadonna assholes because they don't have the wealth and fame that they thought they will but have an overly inflated view of themselves. Keep in mind the loudest noise is often from a significant minority of individuals. The ones you aren't hearing making noise are the ones that are real architects. They do the work hell or high water. They get shit done. They are the real deal not the loudmouth egotistical primadonna dickwads.
Whatever you do, don't be one of the egotistical primadonna dickwads. Sure, learn from them but don't be one of them. We can use less egotistically driven primadonna conceited asshole types in this profession. Work to produce excellent work not shiny flashy garbage.
Remember, a polished turd is still a turd. I seen turds made out to be like "God's gift to the world". N.S., this is just a phrase and a point being made not about the existence of God or not. I know your view about the existence or non-existence of God.
Taso
Aug 25, 20 2:37 am
I wished it’s only at a particular office, but no. I have been to 3 offices and also worked with many architects outside my office. So, I think in high percentage architects are rude like how I stated above (in my experience).
randomised
Aug 25, 20 3:04 am
Maybe it’s you ;-) kidding, architects are rude af, just browse through archinect for a bit...
rcz1001
Aug 25, 20 3:38 am
Taso, were these 3 offices in the same general locality, or were they from different locality more distant than 250 miles radius? There is a pervasive culture of rude egotism. This is because of the culture of idol worshipping of egotistical self-centered primadonna types as starchitects. However, I know from experience that not all architects are rude. I know some good decent individuals. They aren't all the rude asswipes on this forum that randomised references but if you noticed they are usually the same bunch yet relatively few individuals compared to all the people who do read this forum yet are quiet. The quiet ones are more often than not decent individuals.
There is a higher percentile of rude individuals (maybe 10-25%) with the ego the size of planet Jupiter. Most are more professional. Sure, we ALL may have our moments of rude but we aren't talking about isolated moments.... are we? We are talking about a more habitual trait of rudeness and over-inflated ego. What kind of firm have you worked for or did work with as an employee or under some sort of contract work? Architects and firms I have been associated with have been rather polite and respectful.
One firm I had the pleasure of working with mainly works on academic projects, institutional, healthcare, and similar projects. In my experience, that firm had been polite and respectful and very professional. I would work for them.
In my experience, the most rude of architects had been those who work with douchey clients. If you work on shit projects with shitty people for clients all day long, you might develop a shitty attitude. It comes with the territory a little. Then you have the downright primadonnas that are rude and egotistical because they have a bunch of wealth and stardom and the attention kind of develops an "I'm God's Gift to the Universe" attitude. This is another type of rude attitude than working with shitty clients and the shitty attitude that sometimes comes with working with such clients. This is the type of egotistical primadonna rudeness coming from a very inflated ego where they look down. You may see this more often in firms of starchitects.
What type of firms have you worked in? Your choice of firms you have chosen to work in may have something in common. Aside from rude architects, what do they have in common? Where does this come from in the firm culture? Have you ever tried looking for a different kind of firm?
I have also noticed that those who go to architecture school will sometimes be a bit touchy when critiqued. The critique culture can often make some people more sensitive and even feel personally attacked when you question their idea. It can be a by-product of bad critiquing practices which criticized but never constructive. This can be even traumatic for some and have long term psychological impact.
randomised
Aug 25, 20 4:33 am
My God’s Gift to the Universe attitude is all warranted!
I am a third year undergrad. While I have had many really great professors and mentors there have been a handful of really bad ones as with most things you do in life. I am curious if there are any people out there that teach that know why many feel the need to be so negative. I have noticed that when negative professors come to our school, the students start to have a similar negative attitude and start to think its okay to be unkind to others. Yes, the professional world is unkind, yes the competition is great, yes this gives off the vibe that you are strong and dominant in the field but at the end of the day, were all just people and being assholes to everyone doesn't equal great architecture.
I wouldn't necessarily extend your judgement of your experience with the academics onto those of us that practice. From the outside looking in, I think many teachers get pretty beat-down after years in the classroom especially those that teach in the design disciplines.
There are assholes in firms as well. I worked in flyover country at a fancy, published, and award-winning firm where the principals felt the need to act like assholes at all times. They appeared to have an inferiority complex because they were not in NYC or LA. Their design work, while showered with awards, was also very unoriginal, and I think the firm principals secretly knew it.
In contrast these wannabes, I spent time many years ago with truly great architects like Richard Meier and Paul Rudolph, and others, all of whom where very polite and down-to-earth people.
I can verify the presence of fancy, published, award-winning fly-over a-holes. New Yorkers are sweethearts next to these guys.
NYC architects are pretty smug too, at least the older ones who just build the same soulless crap for developers. I don't think every firm is like that in NYC, but the assholes are everywhere you look.
Mr Wiggin's advice is correct.
The density of smugfucks seems to be much higher in academia than the profession in general. (Thank goodness.) But in my view, it's not the world-weary emeriti who are the worst offenders, it's the following generation (or two). A fancy sheepskin, a theoretical competition win, and a complete absence of good humor seem to be badges of honor for twits who feel good only when insulting students who aren't experienced enough to push back. Bullying, I think it's called in real life. In architecture school, they call it sarcasm.
Personal insecurity is the root cause, I believe.
^ Fortunately, there are some really great, helpful, and thoughtful architects in teaching as well.
far and few in NYC unfortunately
Because people are assholes...and can build entire careers on being an asshole
(and the best part is that Leary stole the bit from CK, like a true asshole made a career by stealing other people's work, but because Leary stole from an asshole, who cares, right? He would make a great architect...)
I personally never had to deal with such teachers by the way, or at least my work didn't invite assholery...who knows. People can be like sharks if there's a drop of blood in the water, or they hand you a band aid.
Not a Leary fan but that was great.
The behavior is vicious because the stakes are small.
“I got your rude architects right here, pal.”
Sorry, can’t resist.
Every field has jerks, best to just try not to pay them attention.
Donna, can I know the reference? It's ubiquitous yet I can't seem to find it on google.
Hi Aldea, it's not a reference I would expect anyone to know and it's too long a story for how dumb it is, but: back around 2001 Philadelphia (where I lived) was about to debut a new City slogan that they had paid a consultant tons of money for. Prior to the official unveiling of the slogan the only leak to the press was that the slogan was 7 words long. So the local alt weekly paper came up with potential slogans to fit. "An emergency room conveniently on every corner" "Free dumpster juice in every sidewalk gutter" and my personal favorite "Got your Liberty Bell right here, pal". It made me laugh so hard I've been using it ever since.
Oh. I was referring to the format " I've got your X right here pal". English is not my first language so I assumed it was a pop-culture reference.
Sorry, I misunderstood, and yes, you're right! The phrase "I've got your X right here, pal" is a general pop culture reference. I don't know of any specific first time it was used but it generally is representative of tough guys from New Jersey or Philadelphia or New York - truck driver types, or guys who work in a warehouse or doing labor. But I don't know when or where it first started.
I see. So it's one of those age-old sayings which have lost their origins.
I'm a friendly jerk.... unless I'm reviewing shop drawings. Then I'm just a regular jerk.
Law, finance, entertainment, etc. are all much worse than architecture.
"It is written that a tree shall be known by it's fruit. So you shouldn't judge the whole forest by the fruit of a few bad trees." ~ Me
I don't think we should ever label or stereotype any such large groups. I have met many architects and talk to them on a daily basis. Some are rude some are very friendly. And if most people had to deal with what they have to deal with sometimes (having GC's, sub-contractors, owners, manufacturers etc. all yelling at them the same day, time sensitive deadlines, trying to make the impossible possible, etc.) I imagine they would be rude at times also.
I did think it is was ironic when a brand new intern architect acted arrogant to me last week and then right after that I communicated with famous architect Ronald A. Shaw from the Caribbean and he was so cordial and humble to me. Perhaps that has something to do with his success.
Might be an East Coast thing?
Hey, fuck you. New York is the best.
LOL lovely, Miles.
New York is the only place where I've been invited to sit with strangers at a cafe because there isn't enough seating. Try sitting at the same cafe table as a stranger in Nebraska. They'll be like, there is another town with another cafe 10 miles down the road, get going.
Yeah, but that's the nice thing about fly-over places like Nebraska. They aren't anthills where you can't find a table of your own in a restaurant. To each their own.
Theirs is small!
I've seen many rude architects - every place I worked, there is at least 2
It's started with Jurors in school
I did some juror work for a time. One of my grad student friends asked me to be the "mean" one. I felt a little put-off and surprised, and said, look I don't get what you're saying and I don't know how to sound "mean". She followed it up with, you know, just how honest and blunt you can be with your criticism. It definitely made me think about some things and change tactics.
have you seen the white house lately?
They get condescending and speak in archibabble - and look down on people, they perceive as lessor -
You have to be able to handle criticism - one crit in particular, my prof invited one if his friends, a real hard ass dressed in black - he got in all of put faces - being this was in San Diego(USMC and SEALS) he proceeded to dress us down line some Gunnery Sargent Thomas Hartmann - "I'm here to tell you that you made the biggest mistake of your life studying architecture"
Gunnery Sergeant Thomas Hartmann portrayed by real-life Staff Sergeant R. Lee Ermey (ok, he was honorarily promoted to Gunnery Sergeant given his long-time service and support of the armed forces of the U.S. and his due qualifications anyway. Anyway, aside from that, it is not surprising some architect professors doing the hard-ass drill sergeant crap but if shit really hit the fan, he would be hiding. Doesn't surprise me any.
You have to be able to handle criticism - one crit in particular, my prof invited one if his friends, a real hard ass dressed in black - he got in all of our faces - being this was in San Diego(USMC and SEALS) he proceeded to dress us down like some Gunnery Sargent Thomas Hartmann from "Full Metal Jacket" - "I'm here to tell you that you made the biggest mistake of your life studying architecture" - and this was after 48 hours - no sleep
I've had co-workers, where we would take the elevator down from SOM, to the street and get into these heated arguments on Market Street - Skidmore had it share - on particular P.A. dressed me down at the top of his lungs "Xenakis? That is bullshit" so loud, you could hear him on both both floors and damn near all the way to Wurster Hall in Berkeley - co-workers would IM me calling me names and saying I was on the road to ruin with Revit - then the recession hit - everyone remembered who was a jerk
It's best to be nice, the person who you are rude to, may show up on the other side of the interview table
Some co-workers(notice I don't use the word colleague) can be impatient, condescending and speak in archibabble or talk to each other in Hindi or Russian, Farsi, Mandarin and Tagalog so I can't hear what they are saying - it got do bad, that our CEO told us that only English to be spoken in the office -
The thing I hate more than anything, is when a team lead, PA or PM, gives you direction - and you do just that - then they come back and say "that's not what I had in mind, that's not what I told you to do - you did it wrong"
Then I say that's exactly what you told me, "I never said that"
Just make notes and ask them to confirm before you start doing what they want you to do.
Is there actually something you don't hate about your job or architecture in general?
I'm passive aggressive more so than a-holey, less drama that way.
Part of it may be the culture of academia celebrating the genius of some well known assholes. That being said, there are asshole carpenters, contractors, and the lot, so who knows. Everybody gets insecure and hides behind their perceived status. It doesn't help that we are taught to look down our noses at pedestrian tastes, instead of trying to understand them.
We're not rude, we're just smugly superior.
Deal with it.
That this post emanates from architecture school is not a coincidence. As noted above, every profession has its share of douche nozzles. But a higher concentration seem to flock to academia, for better or worse.
Having to unquestioningly accept a lot of stuff that is patently bullshit gives a lot of room for assholes to perpetuate their own personal bullshit. Once you've already had to renounce your common sense, it's more difficult to effectively deal with bullies, who's whole premise is bullshit .
It’s funny, I remember noticing a clear line in academia...the theory wing was always more smug and arrogant than the history/archeology/building science wing. Opinions often carry a certain defensiveness while factual hard information doesn’t seem to really need
it.
Yes... part of the problem (at least at the undergrad level) is that most 18-year olds are still kids, and it takes time to realize it's okay to stand up to and/or resist the smug dolt spewing nonsense.
To your point jla-x, that smugness comes from insecurity, the knowledge that what you're doing is so arbitrary, it involves spinning yarns rather than looking at empirical evidence. Kids either join them, relegate themselves to the "practical" end of the profession, or simply wait, hopefully without getting too cynical.
The key is not to react - that's being a professional - don't be some thin skinned Trumpitect
Be like Donna Sink - she had it together
Donna Sink has it together - not had, that's a typo - Sorry Donna
F.U.
Faulty Urbanisms!
Exactly!
why are wanna be architects so sensitive?
It's the Zeitgeist...
The question was why is everyone so rude. Sensitivity is a desired trait. Rudeness is not. Try again.
the question is so broad as to be nearly meaningless. A similar question might be "why are white cars so rusty?" My advice is to do the best you can. During crits, listen to the content of the critique and don't take anything personally. Sensitivity is "nice" but not if it is a distraction.
Well, to be honest, there is a real push nowadays to ban a certain use of language or content and even towards true censorship because things don't align with current political correctness, whatever that may be. Even in academia debate is being avoided. Or children's books are banned. There simply is a current trend of hypersensitivity and banning dissident voices and silencing people, just a fact...But that has nothing to do with rude architects and people being assholes of course, although I find it very rude to not allow certain speakers at debates and those are the real assholes, the people who decide for me that I should be protected from other points of view. Different discussion though...
totally different thing..
Yep, different thing...but you can't even give constructive feedback on wannabe architects' portfolio's without being labelled an asshole any more. So yes, architects just like other people can be rude a-f, but also many more things are labeled as rude, offensive and inappropriate these days, which results in more assholes because the criteria have changed, or something, I don't know.
^ These things are related, though not the same things.
There've always been a-holes and sensitive people. It's just something to deal with, each on her/his own.
But there's a culture being stimulated now, especially on campus, where sensitivity is being actively encouraged and grievances cultivated. (I get emails from the administration weekly with the word "micro-aggressions" in the subject line.) I had a conversation with a (female Muslim immigrant) colleague yesterday who said, "What the hell is going on? I'm afraid to say anything to anyone."
So the climate in which a-holery and other behaviors (including benign) occur is a-changing.
I can’t stomach what Universities have become. The culture of “safe space” and “micro aggression” is completely self destructive and pathetic. In my day a “micro aggression” was getting beat up by a group of angry midgets.
*little people
Oh, I guess Dwarf is the preferred word.
In Dutch little people are/were called Lilliputter (Lilliputian) after the island in Gulliver's Travels, think they're not too happy with that anymore either.
Today I learned that people are rude when they don't have their shit together. Is that a microaggression?
I think the term for your reaction is "perfectly reasonable."
Tinbeary
Before architecture, I was an industrial design major, and there was this one prof. who was rude "Don't burn my clock" was a favorite of his - he kinda looked like Hugh Hefner, except he didn't want women in his class, or anyone older than 28 - do one day, a bunch of students filed a complaint with Ca. State Univ. chancellors office - in two weeks, they told him to "pack his tools" and get out - I saw him working at a frame shop in Los Gatos
He didn't have his shit together
Why do architects swear so much?
It's fucking Tuesday.
No that's Wednesday!
From watching too many Mafia movies.
that man has game
Yes, the baggy T-shirt with the stains. I have one from fucking Johnsonite! So hot.
WTF?
I was just told to shut up for solving a problem that apparently needed to be solved later this week, not now. One point for the RUDES! Like I said, overwhelmed makes people rude. Can't think, so rude.
40 minute conversation on why there was no time to listen to my proposal. Which would have taken 5 minutes to look at. Bang head on wall. Repeat.
Civility, like having good manners has been eradicated by the media, sports, and kardashian stars. Our civilization is in a race to lowest common denominator.
Welcome to the New World Order of Facebook.
Nope, it's people doing it to other people...has nothing to do with media, sports or Kardashians.
It's both. Human nature, plus so many more venues in which to act out its worst tendencies.
I think those are just lame excuses, let's blame the media, Kim Kardashian or the Patriots, it's people who decide to act out their worst tendencies and nobody else.
I think it's depression culture. If you show happiness, somebody will do their best to remind you that it is irresponsible to be ok ... how can you be ok? there are heavy metals in your food! factory farms! landfills! children with cancer! north korea! federal debt! car accidents! pants that are too tight! socks that get lost in the dryer! homeless people! kids that need new shoes before they outgrew their last ones! utility companies that burn coal! people in africa without clean water! homeschoolers in kansas teaching creationism! life is terrible! And don't try to say it's ok and change the subject because that'll really get them, are you irresponsible?... Americans need a little more buddha in their lives.
I haven't watched TV in over 8 years. Might be more like 10 now. (who are the kardashians anyways?) Those teens are smart. Peace of mind is where it's at.
Not too much Buddha though, those Buddhists can also be major assholes...
I also follow the teachings of Goldilocks.
But she's blond, so...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w
Agree. I have a fascination with stand up comedy...it just seems like the most difficult thing to do.
I love a good bit.
Interesting watching the bit that jla posted up there after having vigorously discussed gun-ownership with him in other threads. The last part starting around 1:24 especially ...
Something to do instead of watch TV or bitch at people. https://www.coursera.org/learn...
I know this is a late post. 30 year architect here and it's been my experience that angry, egotistical practicing architects are eithet just naturally angry egotists or it's a defense mechanism for a fragile ego. Design criticism starts the second pencil hits paper and continues until the building gets demolished due to old age.
You created an account in 2015, your first post in 2020 is on a thread that no one had commented on since 2018. Cool first post. Don't wait another 5 years to participate again. Maybe comment on a current thread next?
I'm angry, you know why? It's 30 plus years practicing architects that figured it was easier not to give a shit, instead of fighting for the profession, fighting for equity, diversity, and for the right have a well established fee structure. Oh, did I forget to mention how older architects decided to lay across the railroad tracks and let contractors drive up and down on their bodies?
I'm angry because the craft brew I just poured myself is one of those weird smoky/peaty things. I want my scotch peaty... not my beer.
NS, I feel ya. I'm angry because the craft brew I just grabbed from the fridge is a sour, and I wasn't expecting that. It's not bad, I just wasn't expecting it (Parallel 49's Bodhisattva FWIW)
b3, I'm pretty sure architects have been laying down on the tracks since the end of the Master Builder. Thus the rise in the architect-led design-build firm. I honestly wish that I had the time and energy to start one myself (my wife's a builder, but no way am I going down that road). As far as the rest of your comments, to address them from a personal standpoint or professionally, we would have to spend several long evenings discussing over some peaty scotch.
It looks like you've been angry since at least March 6 of '18. What have you done for the last two years to fix the problems you see? Maybe the answer to that is the reply to your accusations as well as the answer to this thread.
I misread the title as nude architects and thought, Hey! It's my car and my and my neighborhood. Mind your own beeswax.
Easy, cause we're all incredibly, self absorbed, self righteous, assholes....... duuuuu'h.
Excuse me, but I’m a socially conscious asshole.
Oh my god....... even worse...... : )
It is.
Some people demonstrate the following:
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.
"Some people" ... ? I'd say "most architects."
Because fuck you, that's why.
did somebody win this thread yet?
Atelier nobody is in the lead right now IMO.
Rude manners are not exclusive to architects. Anyone who wasn't brought up properly by their parents is prone to being rude to others.
Manners are not taught in school or on the street or on the job; they're being taught by parents when one is very young.
No amount of education can fix bad manners; only mom and dad can.
However when I switched to CM. I noticed aside from an ornery foreman and an older owners rep, the majority of smug rudeness came from the designers.
I’m only less than 10 years in this industry, but tbh I feel the same thing - architects are generally rude than other disciplines. I’ve never feel the same way when I communicate with engineers, interiors, graphics, landscapes. They (at least, sound) respectful to each other and act like we are in a professional world.
On the other hand, architects, they have no respect to other people although we are in the same team like they will point out mistakes in front of clients or big boss, also call you with video chat without asking in advance, asking for an immediate answer even during sick leave, etc. And they also love blame games. There are so many I can think of but my hands are tired to type. If these are all because they are trained in this way in school, I’m sorry but I hope they can wake up and bring back their true kind personality. Otherwise it must be affecting to their non-work life too.
Find a better employer.
Maybe in the U.S. or some schools tend to have a higher selection rate of introverts and egotistical assholes. They sometimes have a higher penchant to pick those personality types. There maybe reasons for that which can be observed. Eventually, those selected become licensed architects but those egotistical assholes are still egotistical assholes but just with an architect license which in turn swells that ego even more.
As for the other professions, they have a different culture. This is partly due to the history of the architectural profession and the personality types of the starchitects so this becomes the model of what an "architect" is supposed to be. Some of those introverts turn into egotistical assholes because that is what "architects are supposed to be". It's taught through the culture. The engineering profession and some of those other professions don't have the Frank Lloyd Wright, Howard Roark (fictional character), and gang of famous starchitects and fictional representations of architects perpetuates the stereotype of big ego primadonna because of the architecture profession's association with the high fine arts and primadonna personalities like you might even see in the fashion industry.
However, the truth is, most architects are not that way. There is just a higher percentage of egotistical primadonna because people follow these role models and become that way. It is a taught cultural thing that is toxic and we have more of that in this profession than in engineering and some of the other professions. Do keep in mind that it is still a stereotype but there is a grain of truth to it and the popularized role-models are imitated to the point where the imitators end up being just like the egotistical primadonna role-models that they worship.
Most of them don't actually become "stars". They just become disillusioned egotistical primadonna assholes because they don't have the wealth and fame that they thought they will but have an overly inflated view of themselves. Keep in mind the loudest noise is often from a significant minority of individuals. The ones you aren't hearing making noise are the ones that are real architects. They do the work hell or high water. They get shit done. They are the real deal not the loudmouth egotistical primadonna dickwads.
Whatever you do, don't be one of the egotistical primadonna dickwads. Sure, learn from them but don't be one of them. We can use less egotistically driven primadonna conceited asshole types in this profession. Work to produce excellent work not shiny flashy garbage.
Remember, a polished turd is still a turd. I seen turds made out to be like "God's gift to the world". N.S., this is just a phrase and a point being made not about the existence of God or not. I know your view about the existence or non-existence of God.
I wished it’s only at a particular office, but no. I have been to 3 offices and also worked with many architects outside my office. So, I think in high percentage architects are rude like how I stated above (in my experience).
Maybe it’s you ;-)
kidding, architects are rude af, just browse through archinect for a bit...
Taso, were these 3 offices in the same general locality, or were they from different locality more distant than 250 miles radius? There is a pervasive culture of rude egotism. This is because of the culture of idol worshipping of egotistical self-centered primadonna types as starchitects. However, I know from experience that not all architects are rude. I know some good decent individuals. They aren't all the rude asswipes on this forum that randomised references but if you noticed they are usually the same bunch yet relatively few individuals compared to all the people who do read this forum yet are quiet. The quiet ones are more often than not decent individuals.
There is a higher percentile of rude individuals (maybe 10-25%) with the ego the size of planet Jupiter. Most are more professional. Sure, we ALL may have our moments of rude but we aren't talking about isolated moments.... are we? We are talking about a more habitual trait of rudeness and over-inflated ego. What kind of firm have you worked for or did work with as an employee or under some sort of contract work? Architects and firms I have been associated with have been rather polite and respectful.
One firm I had the pleasure of working with mainly works on academic projects, institutional, healthcare, and similar projects. In my experience, that firm had been polite and respectful and very professional. I would work for them.
In my experience, the most rude of architects had been those who work with douchey clients. If you work on shit projects with shitty people for clients all day long, you might develop a shitty attitude. It comes with the territory a little. Then you have the downright primadonnas that are rude and egotistical because they have a bunch of wealth and stardom and the attention kind of develops an "I'm God's Gift to the Universe" attitude. This is another type of rude attitude than working with shitty clients and the shitty attitude that sometimes comes with working with such clients. This is the type of egotistical primadonna rudeness coming from a very inflated ego where they look down. You may see this more often in firms of starchitects.
What type of firms have you worked in? Your choice of firms you have chosen to work in may have something in common. Aside from rude architects, what do they have in common? Where does this come from in the firm culture? Have you ever tried looking for a different kind of firm?
I have also noticed that those who go to architecture school will sometimes be a bit touchy when critiqued. The critique culture can often make some people more sensitive and even feel personally attacked when you question their idea. It can be a by-product of bad critiquing practices which criticized but never constructive. This can be even traumatic for some and have long term psychological impact.
My God’s Gift to the Universe attitude is all warranted!
LOL.
Architects are rude ? Have ya been to a DMV ?