I come here to seek your counsel. I want to be a better client. But I am at my wits end with the architect/client process and would like some pointers on how I can be a clearer, better client and also to perhaps offer some advice for architects who want to provide better service to their clients.
Briefly - the back story.
3 years ago my wife and I bought a run down farm in the South East of England with a view to demolishing the house and rebuilding it and replacing some barns over a 3-5 year period.
We had lived around the world and love rural architecture , john pawson, Hudson architects, as well as having an appreciation for, but not the budget or appetite for more experimental architecture.
We had worked hard and sold a business and had a seven figure budget set aside for our project. We understood that it was essential that the we invest in good design up front and the most likely route was a RIBA architect.
So we engaged
Architect number one - to design us a house of c450 sqm with a set budget of £1m. During the course of the design process, the property grew to 600sqm. I was a little uncomfortable but i thought, well she knows our cost per sqm needs so if it goes up to £1.2m, i can probably live with that. six months into the design process and a week prior to going into planning, she casually drops into the conversation that 'because of how its designed its more likely to be £3000 per sq metre though.' She could not understand my concern and annoyance - because now, we had a design on a page we couldn't build. She expressed her disappointment in us when we said we were parting ways. We paid her bill.
So we engaged
Architect number two - a young experimental practice who had done great things in rustic , rural architecture as well as cool treehouses and 'small works'. Young , funky, they used plywood and glu lam - they got the earthy, rustic, almost calvinist nature of what we said we wanted in our brief immediately. One thing, I said, i know you are young and funky - but we have children - it has to work for them - oh and you have to keep the boundaries of the existing house and garden - you cannot run into the adjacent area, because we may want to build another downsized house on there one day for us or a child. Sure! they said - we can't wait to get started. A month passed. Oh we are working on it. two months - we haven't quite got it right yet but its coming. at the end of month three, we went out to their cool funky design studio in a semi derelict building in the middle of nowhere.
'This is Camilla - a student from Budapest - she has been working on your design'. uh? what? 'err... with our supervision of course'. Right. Camilla proceeded to show us a beautiful organic design which was truly a work of art. But completely useless for a family. and spreading across our adjacent plot. I expressed my admiration for their work of art but pointed out that Camilla had not really made a family home, nor had she taken into account our requests to keep it within the boundary of the existing house and garden. At 2 acres , this wasnt a particularly restrictive request.
They said they would have another go. a month went by, then another and finally - this time they had 'nailed it'. They said. but what we want to do is show it through you these and they brought out some virtual reality headsets for us to wear as we stepped through the house. cool , funky, sinuous, a work of art - it felt very familiar.
Hold on, isn't this the last house you showed us?
'Yes, we discussed your feedback, but we feel so strongly that this is the best house for the plot, we wanted to really show you the way through it. so we spent the time working up the VR walk through.'
I paid half their bill (i suggested they find an alternative budget for their VR flight of fancy) and got back in the car.
By now , I was starting to realise that our approach wasnt working. My family and I had been living in the cold, draughty farmhouse for two years. I was £35,000 down in architects and other consultants fees with some pretty drawings but nothing useable.
I felt that the universe did not want us to knock this house down and replace it. I must learn to read the signs more quickly.
So we decided to renovate the house instead and on recommendation hired a new architect who was renovation focused. He did a great deisgn, he was a great guy and when he wasnt on the golf course, we managed to have some excellent conversations. OK, I had to photograph what he drew in the mtgs and send them back to his office his junior could work them up on CAD and then he would never brief anyone on the mtg we had so i ended up having to write everything down again. and when the drawings did come they were often labelled wrongly. I suggested the junior come out to the property to be able to get an idea so when they were working them up they would know what they were talking about. He looked at me as if I was mad.
so after a further six months of me playing go between - the plans went into Planning. and we waited. after 8 weeks, the council rejected the planning application as the wrong boxes had been ticked on the application form. We discussed this and they resubmitted them. but uploaded the same files again. or so we found out when the council rejected them again 8 weeks later for a different reason - apparently some very basic planning considerations had not been taken into account and the application had been submitted under the wrong type of application.
I paid the design fee, but not the planning fee. i had now clocked up £50k in fees.
Head in hands i went to a young , growing firm who prided themselves on project management and cost management. Their architectural prowess was , to be honest, dubious, . pedestrian at best. However they had a process. they had a client charter, they got the plans Qs'ed. Or so they said.
We got planning for the renovation and extensions straight off. Awesome I thought - we might just actually get to build this thing!! and then things started to go wrong. I had to chase for a fee quote for the stage two work. when it came, it was a one liner, not a broken down quote. I asked for clarity but they couldnt really get there. They gave me a target of seven weeks for the working drawings and tender issue and the QS element would be at five weeks. twelve weeks later we finally got the tender document out. only after i threw my toys out of the pram.
No window schedules, no finishes schedules, no provisional sums. i am specifying the glazing and ewi specifications myself because someone has to!! The builders are complaining that the pack is incomplete and are losing interest in the job.
Their second bill just landed on the door mat.
Every one of these architects was a RIBA practice.
I am disillusioned and pissed off with the whole thing and we havent even broken ground yet.
I wish I had bought a new identikit house from a house builder, or gone to a turnkey package builder like Baufritz.
Was it us? what did we do wrong?
Constructive feedback and suggestions welcome?
JLC-1
Jan 15, 18 1:41 pm
Can you tell us how you selected the architects? What was your process? Any of them local to the place where your estate was planned? Let's start there
l3wis
Jan 15, 18 1:48 pm
Did you talk to any of the practices' references? Am very sorry to hear about the run of bad experiences.
Volunteer
Jan 15, 18 2:16 pm
You should have (I know - shudda, wouldda, couldda) have found about ten recently built homes in the area you really liked and engaged the owners about the architects they employed (if any, frankly). Saying "hire a RIBA architect" is useless. Like saying "hire a doctor" and employing a brain surgeon when you need a heart surgeon because both are licensed.
PS - the virtual realty crap is an instant turn off and reason enough to grab your wallet and head for the door.
mantaray
Jan 15, 18 2:54 pm
Wow I am a residential architect (in the states) and this is horrifying. The entirety of the process you describe from start to finish (or at least, current) is wildly different than how we've done things -- at EACH firm I've worked at. Could be a UK thing? Literally none of this sounds remotely reasonable and I am shocked that you've been so poorly done by.
informedclient
Jan 15, 18 3:25 pm
thanks all for your responses. I am heartened to hear that this is not the norm and I have just had a run of bad luck.
The first and third architects were local practices and the second and fourth/ current were national practices with some profile.
We selected based on those whose worth we liked and whose design philosophy seemed similar to our own. We assumed that RIBA membership meant that professionalism and a duty of care were a given.
My concern now is that I have no way of knowing how to ensure the current architect completes the tender pack in a timely fashion. I do not know what should be in or out. I am specifying ewi, Windows, flooring, rain goods etc... none of which the architect has done.
What should I reasonably expect from the architect here?
As I said, the fee quote was a one liner with a one off fee against it so I don’t have a check list to work against.
Would I be wrong in suggesting that fifteen weeks Is an unusually long time to produce working drawings for the tender pack for a mid size firm?
Any suggestions for how I move this forward now are gratefully received.
threadkilla
Jan 15, 18 3:44 pm
can you show up to their office and stick around until you have the required documents in hand? sounds extreme, but just might work for you. Like literally make them feel the discomfort they are putting you through.
Sorry to hear about your experience - I might be guilty of going late on some projects in the last while, but that's usually because I'm not being paid properly and have to seek income elsewhere, while the clients have unrealistic expecations and are poor communicators...
JLC-1
Jan 15, 18 3:45 pm
I'm having a hard time following, You do currently have an architect who's working on your tender package?
informedclient
Jan 15, 18 3:27 pm
volunteer - yes the virtual reality and the drone footage from the ‘young and funky’ guys was what made me realise that we were in emperors new clothes territory.
citizen
Jan 15, 18 4:00 pm
Very sorry to hear of your experiences, and it shows an unfortunate split between the practical and esoteric sides of practice that can characterize the profession.
Camilla the student from Stuttgart or Budapest or wherever and the "just slip on these VR headsets and you'll understand" is the stuff of comedy. It shouldn't be foisted upon an unsuspecting client who actually pays bills. I wish you better luck and a better architect.
Wilma Buttfit
Jan 15, 18 4:25 pm
wait, is the architect in that movie named... Miles? :)
citizen
Jan 15, 18 4:46 pm
I didn't want to be the one to point that out.
Wilma Buttfit
Jan 16, 18 10:24 am
blame it on my assburgers.
Donna Sink
Jan 15, 18 4:25 pm
Sorry, not much to offer but commiseration and confirmation that you were treated badly by bad firms and I'm very sorry you had to go through it.
There is a middle ground between "This is our intern and she's done your whole project while we were out buying cool VR tech" and "This work was all done by the intern but I never allow such plebes to grace the client meeting with all-important ME, your ARCHITECT"
Especially on remodel/additions the people working on the job need to have a good understanding of the site and existing conditions. Not allowing the team to visit the actual project is terrible.
Ugh, so much frustration in your story. It speaks poorly of our profession and I'm really sorry. Only one thing to add is that - along with all the excellent advice above from others about how to find an architect through word of mouth - make sure you find someone who does *houses*. I have seen very famous firms (*cough* AIA Gold Medal winner *cough*) do house designs that were not only horrible but wildly expensive. Doing homes is a true specialty.
Good luck!
Miles Jaffe
Jan 15, 18 5:47 pm
Oh-for-four is not an auspicious start.
As stated above, start with homeowners when looking for recommendations as they have nothing to gain. Builders can be helpful too and will have their own favorite architects based on experience.
I have a very good friend from Ireland who has been building in England for a long time. He's coming to the states in a bit to work on one of my projects but might be very helpful to you. If you would like his contact go to my bio page and send me a note.
Peter Normand
Jan 15, 18 6:35 pm
It may be just the way things operate in the US /Midwest but for residential projects we bill the client in phases and get paid / get permission from the client after they see our work before proceeding to the next phase. For something as personal as home we expect to check in with the client periodically to show our progress and to ensure we are on track to realizing the client's vision. Sometimes that is a monthly schedule sometimes less often depending on the schedule.
If there is a next time, schedule the contract for monthly updates/progress payments for the design work and keep reminding your architect what your goals are at each phase/ check in and let them know if they are off course. Don't let them go too far down the road without presenting to you what they are doing and have them explain it to you so you can hear what they believe to be your goals and ideas. Let your architect prove with each step/authorization to proceed/payment that they heard your comments and concerns.
Also for residential you may want to consider contracting the builder/ general contractor first and have them help you find a capable architect.
Hope you and your family can get the home you dreamed of built.
Over and OUT
Peter N
mantaray
Jan 15, 18 11:06 pm
It's hard to know where to start because really, the entire process should be different. First of all, you should have a contract with your current architect which spells out deliverables per each phase of design/construction. A general timeframe should have been at least discussed and the architect should be pro-active about reaching out to you for periodic updates, typically at least 1x per 3 weeks or better.
I'm confused in that you seem to already be under construction and yet do not have complete drawings. Is that correct? Here in the states that would be fairly unheard of if you have an active contract with an architect. Not only does it spell potential disaster but it's a liability for the architect's insurance if work is progressing without adequate oversight. From my consumption of Grand Designs however it does seem that architects perhaps are less involved in construction in the UK -- unfortunately can't speak to that aspect.
Generally, however, it is a BAD idea for the homeowner to be specifying window systems etc. On our end, not only do we (residential architects in general) have the knowledge and experience base to do that for our clients (which is part of why we're hired) but more importantly, the windows are all pretty different and should be determined fairly early on in the construction drawing process so that all the sizes, detailing, etcetera is correctly coordinated with the rest of the building envelope. I have no clue what EWI is but I worry about your specifying building performance items yourself without experience. If you go too far with the wrong selections you can create construction headaches for yourself down the road.
All this to say: it's TERRIBLE that you've been stuck in this position, but be cautious of making a bad job worse -- if you're in the middle of construction and you feel you don't have all the answers, it would perhaps be better to stop construction for a few months until you can squeeze a reasonable set of drawings and specifications out of your architect. Don't pay the bill until you understand what it is for, and until you have a timeframe for when to expect the balance of whatever deliverables you need. If they can't/won't provide these in a timely manner, you may (gulp) need to engage architect #5...
A stitch in time really does save nine, in construction. A poorly detailed building during construction will unfortunately cost MUCH more in repairs later, when problems become evident after years of damage behind the scenes and when you have to move out for repair work. If you can't stomach the thought of an architect #5 (and no one would blame you!) you might want to look into hiring an independent construction manager as an owner's representative -- but it needs to be someone with some kind of business insurance so that they have a stake in ensuring that the details don't go awry. I'm not sure who that would be, in the UK -- in the US the architect holds enormous professional liability costs compared to pretty much everyone else on the jobsite so we take these things extremely seriously.
archanonymous
Jan 15, 18 11:17 pm
Not all architects (at least in the US) are like this, but many are. Sadly academia has isolated itself from professional practice for so long that it is now starting to affect the ability of architects to provide any service at all, let alone good buildings.
Sorry to hear you had some bad experiences. There's some good advice above (especially in the shorter comments).
moor007
Nov 17, 18 6:27 pm
What do the universities have to do with this guy? You cannot blame an entire sect of so-called architects that cannot follow simple instructions on any institution of higher learning. The act of professional practice in the states is not only taught in these schools (especially the one I attended) but it is also carried through to the architects you work with during your tenure as an intern.In terms of great buildings that in itself is another story dealing with economics, social environment, the education of the client/architect, and certain governmental regulations.
mantaray
Jan 15, 18 11:21 pm
Also, side note, when I started reading the original post I assumed this was going to be something about how a client and an architect aren't communicating well, but if you read between the lines you can tell that either the client and client's spouse aren't on the same page... or client wants something that the client clearly can't afford, and the architect is trying to manage expectations in a positive way... or client is really nitpicky but only knows what client likes when client sees it, leading to a frustrating design process... All of these scenarios are pretty common in the industry and fairly frustrating on both sides. But nope. You seem to actually be a normal client with reasonable expectations who is, in fact, hard done by, unfortunately.
Also, part of our job is to design to budget. I can't imagine telling someone at the last minute -- without prior notice -- "oh this is going to cost way more than you had asked for". However, in the interest of taking your question about education seriously, is it possible that architect 1 did not get a clear enough communication from you that the budget was hard and fast? Sometimes we do get clients who come in with a supposed budget, but then they themselves lead the process of asking for additional items that grow the project scope, without mentioning the budget again -- and we are left thinking "well they know they originally had X project scope and they are now asking for X+Y so I guess the scope/budget wasn't that firm after all" and truthfully, 9 times out of 10 that is in fact the case, and budget gets adjusted to match dream house. (We do CHECK with them, in these situations.) Is it possible that architect 1 thought this was happening? And maybe waited a little too long to confirm budget with you?
x-jla
Jan 16, 18 12:48 am
unfortunately, licensure or riba doesn't guarantee competence or integrity. Next time you look for a firm go with one that has a solid portfolio of work regardless of their title.
joseffischer
Jan 16, 18 12:53 am
Fancy house with above builder-grade materials and designer level detailing for 3000 pounds per sq. meter? Without doing any HARD converting, that sounds roughly the same as $300/SF here in the states (Georgia) for high-end residential.
Can anyone share the cost per square meter in what sounds like rural england?
joseffischer
Jan 16, 18 12:54 am
$384 per square foot (thanks google) yeah, that seems high for Georgia. I assume building on an island is more expensive?
3tk
Jan 16, 18 12:45 pm
It would be curious to see what sf cost is in the area. Seems in CT/NY anywhere from $400/sf to $900/sf seems to qualify has 'high end'.
joseffischer
Jan 16, 18 3:05 pm
$300/SF in georgia (we do have a city called Atlanta btw) is high-end, not vinyl siding, not homedepot base trim, not VCT plank or carpet everywhere, actual stone and wood finishes, large ceilings, a ton of windows (though not triple pane) all the bells and whistles for the kitchens and bathrooms, etc.
joseffischer
Jan 16, 18 4:50 pm
I'd love to see a detail of a multi-wythe brick or stone wall with insulation, flashing, etc. I don't really see the point of building it that way since I'm having to cover it up anyway, but if that's how they build in England...
Still, based on previous postings, I'm worried a conversation with you is just going to go down a rabbit hole. Do you live in England?
informedclient
Jan 16, 18 6:06 am
Hi all,
Thanks for the comments and some sage advice in there.
Absolutely, I can only give 'one side' of the story - how I see it. I guess the point of the post is to try and help me to understand - are we being unreasonable? Could we have done things differently. Ultimately, our objective is to get the home built, on or around budget, well, completely and to an agreed design and specification. If we have to change our approach to do that - thats absolutely fine.
I am a business owner myself, so I am always very reluctant to withold payments for exactly the above reason. Partial or substandard delivery is subjective and witholding payments to smaller businesses has knock on effects in people's 'real lives' and those of their children and families.
We have not started construction but the build is currently out to tender. Unfortunately, the tender pack appears to be incomplete (according to 2 of the 3 builders) which is what led me to post here in exasperation.
We are definitely guilty of scope creep with architect one... but I guess we were prepared to financially absorb the scope creep at a proportional level. ie another 20% square footage = another 20% cost. What was difficult was knowing that the roof construction shape was going to blow the budget.
Thanks all for your comments. I am interested to know if any of the Uk architects on the boards have a different view...
BulgarBlogger
Jan 16, 18 10:10 am
More than just dressing a certain way (personally I could really care less- design architects dress much better than some low-class guito finance guy in a 3-piece suit), I find it pretentious when architects reference others designs on Pinterest and ArchDaily as a basis for their designs.
3tk
Jan 16, 18 12:51 pm
There's little substitute for experience - best to look for firms with established record of finished work (and happy clients). Good indication is if they invite you to take a tour of past projects.
Young firms can be less expensive and you might be able to get more for your money, but it's a big risk.
proto
Jan 16, 18 1:52 pm
this thread reminds me of Grand Designs
informedclient
Jan 16, 18 3:36 pm
LOL. Well that gives me hope - because at least on Grand Designs - they usually* finish the build!
Wilma Buttfit
Jan 17, 18 6:53 pm
this thread has triggered flashbacks, especially #3
JasonRichardson
Jun 10, 19 7:39 am
We met 4 design and build companies. The cost and expertise varied but in the end we went with BHM Developments and Property Management Ltd based in Reading. It was a small house (3 bed) and extended to 6 bed with complete new contemporary layout. To be honest, out of 4, I was leaning more towards BHM and ADD Design. ADD design were new at that time so we chose BHM and it was definitely the right choice. Thanks to BHM - we have now so many wow factors in our house.
Hi all,
I come here to seek your counsel. I want to be a better client. But I am at my wits end with the architect/client process and would like some pointers on how I can be a clearer, better client and also to perhaps offer some advice for architects who want to provide better service to their clients.
Briefly - the back story.
3 years ago my wife and I bought a run down farm in the South East of England with a view to demolishing the house and rebuilding it and replacing some barns over a 3-5 year period.
We had lived around the world and love rural architecture , john pawson, Hudson architects, as well as having an appreciation for, but not the budget or appetite for more experimental architecture.
We had worked hard and sold a business and had a seven figure budget set aside for our project. We understood that it was essential that the we invest in good design up front and the most likely route was a RIBA architect.
So we engaged
Architect number one - to design us a house of c450 sqm with a set budget of £1m. During the course of the design process, the property grew to 600sqm. I was a little uncomfortable but i thought, well she knows our cost per sqm needs so if it goes up to £1.2m, i can probably live with that. six months into the design process and a week prior to going into planning, she casually drops into the conversation that 'because of how its designed its more likely to be £3000 per sq metre though.' She could not understand my concern and annoyance - because now, we had a design on a page we couldn't build. She expressed her disappointment in us when we said we were parting ways. We paid her bill.
So we engaged
Architect number two - a young experimental practice who had done great things in rustic , rural architecture as well as cool treehouses and 'small works'. Young , funky, they used plywood and glu lam - they got the earthy, rustic, almost calvinist nature of what we said we wanted in our brief immediately. One thing, I said, i know you are young and funky - but we have children - it has to work for them - oh and you have to keep the boundaries of the existing house and garden - you cannot run into the adjacent area, because we may want to build another downsized house on there one day for us or a child. Sure! they said - we can't wait to get started. A month passed. Oh we are working on it. two months - we haven't quite got it right yet but its coming. at the end of month three, we went out to their cool funky design studio in a semi derelict building in the middle of nowhere.
'This is Camilla - a student from Budapest - she has been working on your design'. uh? what? 'err... with our supervision of course'. Right. Camilla proceeded to show us a beautiful organic design which was truly a work of art. But completely useless for a family. and spreading across our adjacent plot. I expressed my admiration for their work of art but pointed out that Camilla had not really made a family home, nor had she taken into account our requests to keep it within the boundary of the existing house and garden. At 2 acres , this wasnt a particularly restrictive request.
They said they would have another go. a month went by, then another and finally - this time they had 'nailed it'. They said. but what we want to do is show it through you these and they brought out some virtual reality headsets for us to wear as we stepped through the house. cool , funky, sinuous, a work of art - it felt very familiar.
Hold on, isn't this the last house you showed us?
'Yes, we discussed your feedback, but we feel so strongly that this is the best house for the plot, we wanted to really show you the way through it. so we spent the time working up the VR walk through.'
I paid half their bill (i suggested they find an alternative budget for their VR flight of fancy) and got back in the car.
By now , I was starting to realise that our approach wasnt working. My family and I had been living in the cold, draughty farmhouse for two years. I was £35,000 down in architects and other consultants fees with some pretty drawings but nothing useable.
I felt that the universe did not want us to knock this house down and replace it. I must learn to read the signs more quickly.
So we decided to renovate the house instead and on recommendation hired a new architect who was renovation focused. He did a great deisgn, he was a great guy and when he wasnt on the golf course, we managed to have some excellent conversations. OK, I had to photograph what he drew in the mtgs and send them back to his office his junior could work them up on CAD and then he would never brief anyone on the mtg we had so i ended up having to write everything down again. and when the drawings did come they were often labelled wrongly. I suggested the junior come out to the property to be able to get an idea so when they were working them up they would know what they were talking about. He looked at me as if I was mad.
so after a further six months of me playing go between - the plans went into Planning. and we waited. after 8 weeks, the council rejected the planning application as the wrong boxes had been ticked on the application form. We discussed this and they resubmitted them. but uploaded the same files again. or so we found out when the council rejected them again 8 weeks later for a different reason - apparently some very basic planning considerations had not been taken into account and the application had been submitted under the wrong type of application.
I paid the design fee, but not the planning fee. i had now clocked up £50k in fees.
Head in hands i went to a young , growing firm who prided themselves on project management and cost management. Their architectural prowess was , to be honest, dubious, . pedestrian at best. However they had a process. they had a client charter, they got the plans Qs'ed. Or so they said.
We got planning for the renovation and extensions straight off. Awesome I thought - we might just actually get to build this thing!! and then things started to go wrong. I had to chase for a fee quote for the stage two work. when it came, it was a one liner, not a broken down quote. I asked for clarity but they couldnt really get there. They gave me a target of seven weeks for the working drawings and tender issue and the QS element would be at five weeks. twelve weeks later we finally got the tender document out. only after i threw my toys out of the pram.
No window schedules, no finishes schedules, no provisional sums. i am specifying the glazing and ewi specifications myself because someone has to!! The builders are complaining that the pack is incomplete and are losing interest in the job.
Their second bill just landed on the door mat.
Every one of these architects was a RIBA practice.
I am disillusioned and pissed off with the whole thing and we havent even broken ground yet.
I wish I had bought a new identikit house from a house builder, or gone to a turnkey package builder like Baufritz.
Was it us? what did we do wrong?
Constructive feedback and suggestions welcome?
Can you tell us how you selected the architects? What was your process? Any of them local to the place where your estate was planned? Let's start there
Did you talk to any of the practices' references? Am very sorry to hear about the run of bad experiences.
You should have (I know - shudda, wouldda, couldda) have found about ten recently built homes in the area you really liked and engaged the owners about the architects they employed (if any, frankly). Saying "hire a RIBA architect" is useless. Like saying "hire a doctor" and employing a brain surgeon when you need a heart surgeon because both are licensed.
PS - the virtual realty crap is an instant turn off and reason enough to grab your wallet and head for the door.
Wow I am a residential architect (in the states) and this is horrifying. The entirety of the process you describe from start to finish (or at least, current) is wildly different than how we've done things -- at EACH firm I've worked at. Could be a UK thing? Literally none of this sounds remotely reasonable and I am shocked that you've been so poorly done by.
thanks all for your responses. I am heartened to hear that this is not the norm and I have just had a run of bad luck.
The first and third architects were local practices and the second and fourth/ current were national practices with some profile.
We selected based on those whose worth we liked and whose design philosophy seemed similar to our own. We assumed that RIBA membership meant that professionalism and a duty of care were a given.
My concern now is that I have no way of knowing how to ensure the current architect completes the tender pack in a timely fashion. I do not know what should be in or out. I am specifying ewi, Windows, flooring, rain goods etc... none of which the architect has done.
What should I reasonably expect from the architect here?
As I said, the fee quote was a one liner with a one off fee against it so I don’t have a check list to work against.
Would I be wrong in suggesting that fifteen weeks Is an unusually long time to produce working drawings for the tender pack for a mid size firm?
Any suggestions for how I move this forward now are gratefully received.
can you show up to their office and stick around until you have the required documents in hand? sounds extreme, but just might work for you. Like literally make them feel the discomfort they are putting you through. Sorry to hear about your experience - I might be guilty of going late on some projects in the last while, but that's usually because I'm not being paid properly and have to seek income elsewhere, while the clients have unrealistic expecations and are poor communicators...
I'm having a hard time following, You do currently have an architect who's working on your tender package?
volunteer - yes the virtual reality and the drone footage from the ‘young and funky’ guys was what made me realise that we were in emperors new clothes territory.
Very sorry to hear of your experiences, and it shows an unfortunate split between the practical and esoteric sides of practice that can characterize the profession.
Camilla the student from Stuttgart or Budapest or wherever and the "just slip on these VR headsets and you'll understand" is the stuff of comedy. It shouldn't be foisted upon an unsuspecting client who actually pays bills. I wish you better luck and a better architect.
wait, is the architect in that movie named... Miles? :)
I didn't want to be the one to point that out.
blame it on my assburgers.
Sorry, not much to offer but commiseration and confirmation that you were treated badly by bad firms and I'm very sorry you had to go through it.
There is a middle ground between "This is our intern and she's done your whole project while we were out buying cool VR tech" and "This work was all done by the intern but I never allow such plebes to grace the client meeting with all-important ME, your ARCHITECT"
Especially on remodel/additions the people working on the job need to have a good understanding of the site and existing conditions. Not allowing the team to visit the actual project is terrible.
Ugh, so much frustration in your story. It speaks poorly of our profession and I'm really sorry. Only one thing to add is that - along with all the excellent advice above from others about how to find an architect through word of mouth - make sure you find someone who does *houses*. I have seen very famous firms (*cough* AIA Gold Medal winner *cough*) do house designs that were not only horrible but wildly expensive. Doing homes is a true specialty.
Good luck!
Oh-for-four is not an auspicious start.
As stated above, start with homeowners when looking for recommendations as they have nothing to gain. Builders can be helpful too and will have their own favorite architects based on experience.
I have a very good friend from Ireland who has been building in England for a long time. He's coming to the states in a bit to work on one of my projects but might be very helpful to you. If you would like his contact go to my bio page and send me a note.
It may be just the way things operate in the US /Midwest but for residential projects we bill the client in phases and get paid / get permission from the client after they see our work before proceeding to the next phase. For something as personal as home we expect to check in with the client periodically to show our progress and to ensure we are on track to realizing the client's vision. Sometimes that is a monthly schedule sometimes less often depending on the schedule.
If there is a next time, schedule the contract for monthly updates/progress payments for the design work and keep reminding your architect what your goals are at each phase/ check in and let them know if they are off course. Don't let them go too far down the road without presenting to you what they are doing and have them explain it to you so you can hear what they believe to be your goals and ideas. Let your architect prove with each step/authorization to proceed/payment that they heard your comments and concerns.
Also for residential you may want to consider contracting the builder/ general contractor first and have them help you find a capable architect.
Hope you and your family can get the home you dreamed of built.
Over and OUT
Peter N
It's hard to know where to start because really, the entire process should be different. First of all, you should have a contract with your current architect which spells out deliverables per each phase of design/construction. A general timeframe should have been at least discussed and the architect should be pro-active about reaching out to you for periodic updates, typically at least 1x per 3 weeks or better.
I'm confused in that you seem to already be under construction and yet do not have complete drawings. Is that correct? Here in the states that would be fairly unheard of if you have an active contract with an architect. Not only does it spell potential disaster but it's a liability for the architect's insurance if work is progressing without adequate oversight. From my consumption of Grand Designs however it does seem that architects perhaps are less involved in construction in the UK -- unfortunately can't speak to that aspect.
Generally, however, it is a BAD idea for the homeowner to be specifying window systems etc. On our end, not only do we (residential architects in general) have the knowledge and experience base to do that for our clients (which is part of why we're hired) but more importantly, the windows are all pretty different and should be determined fairly early on in the construction drawing process so that all the sizes, detailing, etcetera is correctly coordinated with the rest of the building envelope. I have no clue what EWI is but I worry about your specifying building performance items yourself without experience. If you go too far with the wrong selections you can create construction headaches for yourself down the road.
All this to say: it's TERRIBLE that you've been stuck in this position, but be cautious of making a bad job worse -- if you're in the middle of construction and you feel you don't have all the answers, it would perhaps be better to stop construction for a few months until you can squeeze a reasonable set of drawings and specifications out of your architect. Don't pay the bill until you understand what it is for, and until you have a timeframe for when to expect the balance of whatever deliverables you need. If they can't/won't provide these in a timely manner, you may (gulp) need to engage architect #5...
A stitch in time really does save nine, in construction. A poorly detailed building during construction will unfortunately cost MUCH more in repairs later, when problems become evident after years of damage behind the scenes and when you have to move out for repair work. If you can't stomach the thought of an architect #5 (and no one would blame you!) you might want to look into hiring an independent construction manager as an owner's representative -- but it needs to be someone with some kind of business insurance so that they have a stake in ensuring that the details don't go awry. I'm not sure who that would be, in the UK -- in the US the architect holds enormous professional liability costs compared to pretty much everyone else on the jobsite so we take these things extremely seriously.
Not all architects (at least in the US) are like this, but many are. Sadly academia has isolated itself from professional practice for so long that it is now starting to affect the ability of architects to provide any service at all, let alone good buildings.
Sorry to hear you had some bad experiences. There's some good advice above (especially in the shorter comments).
What do the universities have to do with this guy? You cannot blame an entire sect of so-called architects that cannot follow simple instructions on any institution of higher learning. The act of professional practice in the states is not only taught in these schools (especially the one I attended) but it is also carried through to the architects you work with during your tenure as an intern.In terms of great buildings that in itself is another story dealing with economics, social environment, the education of the client/architect, and certain governmental regulations.
Also, side note, when I started reading the original post I assumed this was going to be something about how a client and an architect aren't communicating well, but if you read between the lines you can tell that either the client and client's spouse aren't on the same page... or client wants something that the client clearly can't afford, and the architect is trying to manage expectations in a positive way... or client is really nitpicky but only knows what client likes when client sees it, leading to a frustrating design process... All of these scenarios are pretty common in the industry and fairly frustrating on both sides. But nope. You seem to actually be a normal client with reasonable expectations who is, in fact, hard done by, unfortunately.
Also, part of our job is to design to budget. I can't imagine telling someone at the last minute -- without prior notice -- "oh this is going to cost way more than you had asked for". However, in the interest of taking your question about education seriously, is it possible that architect 1 did not get a clear enough communication from you that the budget was hard and fast? Sometimes we do get clients who come in with a supposed budget, but then they themselves lead the process of asking for additional items that grow the project scope, without mentioning the budget again -- and we are left thinking "well they know they originally had X project scope and they are now asking for X+Y so I guess the scope/budget wasn't that firm after all" and truthfully, 9 times out of 10 that is in fact the case, and budget gets adjusted to match dream house. (We do CHECK with them, in these situations.) Is it possible that architect 1 thought this was happening? And maybe waited a little too long to confirm budget with you?
unfortunately, licensure or riba doesn't guarantee competence or integrity. Next time you look for a firm go with one that has a solid portfolio of work regardless of their title.
Fancy house with above builder-grade materials and designer level detailing for 3000 pounds per sq. meter? Without doing any HARD converting, that sounds roughly the same as $300/SF here in the states (Georgia) for high-end residential.
Can anyone share the cost per square meter in what sounds like rural england?
$384 per square foot (thanks google) yeah, that seems high for Georgia. I assume building on an island is more expensive?
It would be curious to see what sf cost is in the area. Seems in CT/NY anywhere from $400/sf to $900/sf seems to qualify has 'high end'.
$300/SF in georgia (we do have a city called Atlanta btw) is high-end, not vinyl siding, not homedepot base trim, not VCT plank or carpet everywhere, actual stone and wood finishes, large ceilings, a ton of windows (though not triple pane) all the bells and whistles for the kitchens and bathrooms, etc.
I'd love to see a detail of a multi-wythe brick or stone wall with insulation, flashing, etc. I don't really see the point of building it that way since I'm having to cover it up anyway, but if that's how they build in England...
Still, based on previous postings, I'm worried a conversation with you is just going to go down a rabbit hole. Do you live in England?
Hi all,
Thanks for the comments and some sage advice in there.
Absolutely, I can only give 'one side' of the story - how I see it. I guess the point of the post is to try and help me to understand - are we being unreasonable? Could we have done things differently. Ultimately, our objective is to get the home built, on or around budget, well, completely and to an agreed design and specification. If we have to change our approach to do that - thats absolutely fine.
I am a business owner myself, so I am always very reluctant to withold payments for exactly the above reason. Partial or substandard delivery is subjective and witholding payments to smaller businesses has knock on effects in people's 'real lives' and those of their children and families.
We have not started construction but the build is currently out to tender. Unfortunately, the tender pack appears to be incomplete (according to 2 of the 3 builders) which is what led me to post here in exasperation.
We are definitely guilty of scope creep with architect one... but I guess we were prepared to financially absorb the scope creep at a proportional level. ie another 20% square footage = another 20% cost. What was difficult was knowing that the roof construction shape was going to blow the budget.
Thanks all for your comments. I am interested to know if any of the Uk architects on the boards have a different view...
More than just dressing a certain way (personally I could really care less- design architects dress much better than some low-class guito finance guy in a 3-piece suit), I find it pretentious when architects reference others designs on Pinterest and ArchDaily as a basis for their designs.
There's little substitute for experience - best to look for firms with established record of finished work (and happy clients). Good indication is if they invite you to take a tour of past projects.
Young firms can be less expensive and you might be able to get more for your money, but it's a big risk.
this thread reminds me of Grand Designs
LOL. Well that gives me hope - because at least on Grand Designs - they usually* finish the build!
this thread has triggered flashbacks, especially #3
We met 4 design and build companies. The cost and expertise varied but in the end we went with BHM Developments and Property Management Ltd based in Reading. It was a small house (3 bed) and extended to 6 bed with complete new contemporary layout. To be honest, out of 4, I was leaning more towards BHM and ADD Design. ADD design were new at that time so we chose BHM and it was definitely the right choice. Thanks to BHM - we have now so many wow factors in our house.