I'd like to determine what the minimum possible Fair Housing "Type A" and "Type B" bathrooms are. Please see attached. I've used wall mounted toilets to reduce the encroachment into the open floor space. I believe that you can squeeze an "A" bathroom down to 4.5 ft x 7.5 ft = 33.75 sf. The type "B" bathroom is 5 ft x 7 ft = 35 sf, but the vanity is 27" wide instead of 30" wide... not sure if this is allowed.
poop876
Dec 21, 17 7:51 am
Where is your turning radius?
Peter Normand
Dec 21, 17 9:44 am
you would only need that for ADA Mobility Feature or accessible units or ANSI type A unit accessible bathrooms. FHA is a different set of criteria and covers new housing reachable by an accessible route in buildings built after 3/13/1991 and is not as stringent.
poop876
Dec 21, 17 10:07 am
Thanks Peter! We are currently slammed with projects so ANSI was in my head, but none of them are FHA, so I'm not current on that. Thanks again for pointing it out.
Non Sequitur
Dec 21, 17 8:13 am
Why not just put a hole in the floor and a water bucket overhead? Sounds like the best way to reduce everything to the bare minimum.
Peter Normand
Dec 21, 17 9:32 am
For the type B (Specification B) Bathroom consider using a transfer shower 36" x 36" min clear but you need to have a 30 x 48" parallel approach starting at the control wall so the room would have a notch in it, less space and could become storage outside of the bathroom. A vanity with clear floor space oriented for forward approach underneath can overlap this by 6" at the control wall end.
The type A tub would still need to be 5' long.
The 30" wide vanity is not required but the center of the sink bowl must be minimum 15" from the side wall.
is this for a class project or something else?
Over and OUT
Peter N
cbaze
Dec 21, 17 2:39 pm
Why does the type A tub have to be 5' long?
I'll sketch up a type B with a shower instead of a tub. If I have a 27" vanity, I can't have a support that blocks knee space on the toilet side, right? Looking into bathroom pods for several different projects.
because you are using a forward approach to the vanity and the vanity is less than 30" you would need to have brackets supporting the vanity clear of the knee and toe clearance. this knee tow clearance need to be 30"wide centered on the bowl of the vanity. These brackets are fairly common.
zonker
Dec 21, 17 9:13 pm
sheesh, there are bigger Loos on Emirates suits
s-a-m-a-n-t-h-a
Jun 19, 20 4:01 am
I know right...
cbaze
Feb 14, 18 8:58 pm
Here is a Type B with shower which comes out to 30.25 SF. I have 51" clear floor space at the toilet instead of 56", but would a wall mount toilet meet the intent of the code since 6" or more of space is gained (where the tank would normally sit)? Is there any way possible to create a FHA full bath that is smaller than this?
Non Sequitur
Feb 14, 18 9:01 pm
terrible layout.
cbaze
Feb 14, 18 9:07 pm
You're from Canada, so your opinion doesn't count.
Non Sequitur
Feb 14, 18 9:13 pm
It counts plenty.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 14, 18 10:08 pm
Really, Non. It's a perfectly acceptable layout for little people. Except of course for the missing footstool.
b3tadine[sutures]
Feb 15, 18 12:30 am
can you fit a squatty-potty?
Peter Normand
Feb 15, 18 10:41 am
a few things: 1 you need a forward approach to the sink as you do not appear to have the required 48" wide clear floor space centered on the sink (it is too close to the door) and the vanity is not 30" wide so it will have to meet the knee and toe clearance at the toilet side of the vanity and have no end panel that reaches the floor a that end 2 the FHA design manual does not allow for a reduction in the clear floor space for the toilet, you still need 56" from the toilet rear wall 3 the shower must have a minimum 36" wide opening 4 the controls for the shower need to be on the wall at the rear of the bathroom (opposite of the bathroom door) so the 30" x 48" clear floor space can start at the control wall and go past the shower. and finally the shower dimensions must be from the fished face of the shower not the shower pan and they are measured from the center of the shower so you can curve the walls (typical for pre-built shower enclosures). Also don't forget the blocking for future grab bar installation. looks good otherwise.
s-a-m-a-n-t-h-a
Jun 19, 20 4:03 am
@Non Sequitur what makes this a terrible layout?
Non Sequitur
Jun 19, 20 6:04 am
^everything.
cbaze
Feb 15, 18 11:51 pm
Ok, so far as FHA is concerned then, the space gained by a wall mounted toilet will not translate to any SF savings, correct?
Peter Normand
Feb 16, 18 10:52 am
I do not know of any exemption in FHA design manual. Typically in residential construction wall hung toilets are rarely used as the carriage you need to have in the wall takes up a lot of space. In ADA there is an allowance for a shorter clear floor space in stalls for wall hung toilets.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 16, 18 11:02 am
Nickle and dining a couple of s.f. to make a miserable space even worse. What's wrong with this picture?
Non Sequitur
Feb 16, 18 11:32 am
Your name is Miles, so your opinion does not count apparently. See his counter-point to my comment above.
Peter Normand
Feb 18, 18 11:39 am
It is all in an effort to make housing affordable by reducing the square footage that has to be built out. Smaller units are slightly cheaper to build and can be rented or sold at a slightly lower price. FHA and other codes in effect are a check on this to make it possible that persons with disabilities can use the housing.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 18, 18 12:19 pm
If they really want to make it affordable they should eliminate all the codes.
If they want to make it even marginally livable, on the other hand ... oh, never mind.
boraliaarthur
Jun 16, 20 6:02 pm
Marginally livable? Please go on...
I'm planning to reduce square footage like you said, but have doubts on how to go about it while making sure I still have enough space for my precious NG (more to come... I have an addiction God help me) (currently have the 4th item here, pls refer to the table the site provided to check its dimensions, you'll see what I mean...) have any tips? I really wanna make it affordable but also utilize space. :)
randomised
Feb 16, 18 1:31 pm
Love it how the minimum requirements turn into maximum allowable requirements almost by default, for sure the OP is not an architect.
Medusa
Feb 18, 18 10:02 am
Keep in mind that your wall mounted toilet will probably be VE'd out because a wall hung toilet+carrier times however many housing units is going to be a lot more expensive than a regular old floor mounted residential toilet. (Not to mention, are you even allowing enough space in the wall cavity for the carrier?) This will screw up your space savings and give you a lot of fun times redesigning floor plans during CA.
geezertect
Feb 19, 18 8:26 am
But fortunately, if you're an architect, you will get to do all the redesign work for free, since it's your fault for not being able to convince your client that you can't get blood out of a rock.
boraliaarthur
Jun 15, 20 8:55 pm
speaking from experience geezer? wanna talk about it?
s-a-m-a-n-t-h-a
Jun 21, 20 3:56 pm
aw @cbaze, don't listen to the negative commenters here, I think your work is wonderful. However, there are a few points of improvement, which are already stated by @Peter Normand. I agree with him especially about the 56" from the toilet's rear wall. I prefer it that way too since you really do notice a significant difference in the feeling when you go to actually use the toilet. To give you a visual example, I've searched for a pic. See this photo here, the first photo here, and finally this one here - hopefully you get what I mean. These show the importance of more space in front of the bowl.
I'd like to determine what the minimum possible Fair Housing "Type A" and "Type B" bathrooms are. Please see attached. I've used wall mounted toilets to reduce the encroachment into the open floor space. I believe that you can squeeze an "A" bathroom down to 4.5 ft x 7.5 ft = 33.75 sf. The type "B" bathroom is 5 ft x 7 ft = 35 sf, but the vanity is 27" wide instead of 30" wide... not sure if this is allowed.
Where is your turning radius?
you would only need that for ADA Mobility Feature or accessible units or ANSI type A unit accessible bathrooms. FHA is a different set of criteria and covers new housing reachable by an accessible route in buildings built after 3/13/1991 and is not as stringent.
Thanks Peter! We are currently slammed with projects so ANSI was in my head, but none of them are FHA, so I'm not current on that. Thanks again for pointing it out.
Why not just put a hole in the floor and a water bucket overhead? Sounds like the best way to reduce everything to the bare minimum.
For the type B (Specification B) Bathroom consider using a transfer shower 36" x 36" min clear but you need to have a 30 x 48" parallel approach starting at the control wall so the room would have a notch in it, less space and could become storage outside of the bathroom. A vanity with clear floor space oriented for forward approach underneath can overlap this by 6" at the control wall end.
The type A tub would still need to be 5' long.
The 30" wide vanity is not required but the center of the sink bowl must be minimum 15" from the side wall.
is this for a class project or something else?
Over and OUT
Peter N
Why does the type A tub have to be 5' long? I'll sketch up a type B with a shower instead of a tub. If I have a 27" vanity, I can't have a support that blocks knee space on the toilet side, right? Looking into bathroom pods for several different projects.
The 5' (60") is the length of the clear floor space in the FHA design guidelines which if combined with ANSI 2003 (ANSI covers the common areas) is an approved DOJ/HUD safe harbor. https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/PDF/FAIRHOUSING/fairfull.pdf Page 7.53
because you are using a forward approach to the vanity and the vanity is less than 30" you would need to have brackets supporting the vanity clear of the knee and toe clearance. this knee tow clearance need to be 30"wide centered on the bowl of the vanity. These brackets are fairly common.
sheesh, there are bigger Loos on Emirates suits
I know right...
Here is a Type B with shower which comes out to 30.25 SF. I have 51" clear floor space at the toilet instead of 56", but would a wall mount toilet meet the intent of the code since 6" or more of space is gained (where the tank would normally sit)? Is there any way possible to create a FHA full bath that is smaller than this?
terrible layout.
You're from Canada, so your opinion doesn't count.
It counts plenty.
Really, Non. It's a perfectly acceptable layout for little people. Except of course for the missing footstool.
can you fit a squatty-potty?
a few things: 1 you need a forward approach to the sink as you do not appear to have the required 48" wide clear floor space centered on the sink (it is too close to the door) and the vanity is not 30" wide so it will have to meet the knee and toe clearance at the toilet side of the vanity and have no end panel that reaches the floor a that end 2 the FHA design manual does not allow for a reduction in the clear floor space for the toilet, you still need 56" from the toilet rear wall 3 the shower must have a minimum 36" wide opening 4 the controls for the shower need to be on the wall at the rear of the bathroom (opposite of the bathroom door) so the 30" x 48" clear floor space can start at the control wall and go past the shower. and finally the shower dimensions must be from the fished face of the shower not the shower pan and they are measured from the center of the shower so you can curve the walls (typical for pre-built shower enclosures). Also don't forget the blocking for future grab bar installation. looks good otherwise.
@Non Sequitur what makes this a terrible layout?
^everything.
Ok, so far as FHA is concerned then, the space gained by a wall mounted toilet will not translate to any SF savings, correct?
I do not know of any exemption in FHA design manual. Typically in residential construction wall hung toilets are rarely used as the carriage you need to have in the wall takes up a lot of space. In ADA there is an allowance for a shorter clear floor space in stalls for wall hung toilets.
Nickle and dining a couple of s.f. to make a miserable space even worse. What's wrong with this picture?
Your name is Miles, so your opinion does not count apparently. See his counter-point to my comment above.
It is all in an effort to make housing affordable by reducing the square footage that has to be built out. Smaller units are slightly cheaper to build and can be rented or sold at a slightly lower price. FHA and other codes in effect are a check on this to make it possible that persons with disabilities can use the housing.
If they really want to make it affordable they should eliminate all the codes.
If they want to make it even marginally livable, on the other hand ... oh, never mind.
Marginally livable? Please go on...
I'm planning to reduce square footage like you said, but have doubts on how to go about it while making sure I still have enough space for my precious NG (more to come... I have an addiction God help me) (currently have the 4th item here, pls refer to the table the site provided to check its dimensions, you'll see what I mean...) have any tips? I really wanna make it affordable but also utilize space. :)
Love it how the minimum requirements turn into maximum allowable requirements almost by default, for sure the OP is not an architect.
Keep in mind that your wall mounted toilet will probably be VE'd out because a wall hung toilet+carrier times however many housing units is going to be a lot more expensive than a regular old floor mounted residential toilet. (Not to mention, are you even allowing enough space in the wall cavity for the carrier?) This will screw up your space savings and give you a lot of fun times redesigning floor plans during CA.
But fortunately, if you're an architect, you will get to do all the redesign work for free, since it's your fault for not being able to convince your client that you can't get blood out of a rock.
speaking from experience geezer? wanna talk about it?
aw @cbaze, don't listen to the negative commenters here, I think your work is wonderful. However, there are a few points of improvement, which are already stated by @Peter Normand. I agree with him especially about the 56" from the toilet's rear wall. I prefer it that way too since you really do notice a significant difference in the feeling when you go to actually use the toilet. To give you a visual example, I've searched for a pic. See this photo here, the first photo here, and finally this one here - hopefully you get what I mean. These show the importance of more space in front of the bowl.