First of all, let me apologize in advance if this is an inappropriate post. Most forums have rules and guidelines for who can join and what kind of questions can be asked but I didn't find any here. I don't know if this forum is only for architects or if others can participate. Some professional forums welcome civilians and some don't because they view it as giving free advice.
I am in California and want to install glass railing on my interior stairs using standoffs (like the attached photo). I need to know how thick the glass is required to be but I can't find the answer to this question anywhere and my contractor doesn't know either.
Does anyone know? Or can anyone give me some advice on finding the answer? I don't think I'm going to find the answer by searching online because this is such a specific application.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Almosthip7
Nov 29, 17 6:19 pm
When you fall down the stairs, what do you grab on to?
Everyday Architect
Nov 29, 17 7:32 pm
... or the handrail that is on the other side of the stair and not pictured.
Everyday Architect
Nov 29, 17 7:31 pm
My first piece of advice is to fire your contractor.
My next piece of advice is to find someone to help you read the building code. If they are a contractor, hire them to replace the contractor you just fired. If they are not a contractor, have them administer the construction contract with whatever contractor you find to replace the one you just fired.
Peter Normand
Jan 9, 18 10:30 am
Most residential contractors don't deal with these types of systems. this is almost always handled by a sub who is certified by the vendors supplying the glass. These systems are sold as a complete package including engineering. No need for a new contractor, but an architect would be useful.
chigurh
Jan 25, 18 9:10 pm
why would you read the building code? so you can fake in a handrail/guardrail and take it out after c of o? welcome to residential architecture.
BulgarBlogger
Nov 29, 17 7:35 pm
The only loads you have to consider are the 200 pound point load and the 50/lf concentrated load. You can find more information in Part 2.5 of Title 24, aka the California Residential Code.
Usually, the manufacturer would only guarantee that the standoffs or shoes will be able to withstand the design loads. The glass needs to be engineered by the fabricator.
Typically, glass guardrails that are supported in this manner are not thinner than 1/2". In this case, they are in an interior and are not exposed to wind loads.
The glass seems to have a greenish tint on it, which means that it has a higher iron content. I'm not sure if the molecular composition comes into play when engineering glass, but that's a question that a fabricator might need to answer. Yet another consideration is whether you want the guardrail to be tempered, laminated, etc. Sometimes, structural glass isn't even glass, but acrylic. Again, this is something you may wan t to talk to a fabricator about.
Lastly, the following is just a personal preference, but I think it is extremely cheesy to have those standoffs in a residential setting. It might make sense in a commercial setting where you may want to relate the guardrail to an exterior curtain wall with spider fittings, but for a residence, I would just stick to a simple stainless steel shoe by CR Laurence or equal and have it detailed such that it rests directly on a structural member and it is concealed by the gypsum wall board and the floor finish so all you see is a continuous band of glass. But that's just my humble opinion.
Hope this helps.
JonathanLivingston
Nov 30, 17 5:35 pm
Great response
Non Sequitur
Nov 29, 17 7:35 pm
I second the above comments and add that that type of railing is not permitted in my region.
That said, the glass thickness, lamination, and anchor are all dépendant on the lateral load required by local codes. Best to hire someone, such as an architect to get what you want
SneakyPete
Nov 30, 17 4:23 pm
Why isn't it permitted?
whistler
Nov 29, 17 7:52 pm
15 mm is what I would need to do in this region, you might get away with 12mm depending on the side of the panel and whether you introduce a top cap to strengthen the entire assembly. we would also require an engineer to sign off on the design too.... same as a deck guardrail.
Miles Jaffe
Nov 29, 17 8:27 pm
Bad design. Beyond that, stupid design.
Peter Normand
Jan 9, 18 10:31 am
not your house and not your money, you must be really good at landing clients.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 9, 18 11:29 am
Landing good clients. You know, those who appreciate high-quality design and construction.
If someone like BulgarBlogger popped up to share info every time a question like this came up, this forum might actually be useful for more than laughs.
BulgarBlogger
Nov 29, 17 11:50 pm
Thanks!
JLC-1
Nov 30, 17 4:35 pm
you know what's the most difficult part of this? to align the tops of all those panels.
senjohnblutarsky
Nov 30, 17 4:56 pm
Just buy a railing system from a manufacturer who knows what they're doing. They should be pre-engineering their product and tell you if it meets. Don't hire some rando glass company to make things for you if you don't know what you're doing. If you're here asking this question... let's face it... you don't know what you're doing.
Different thicknesses of glass for different situations. I worked on a hotel that had these kind of glass balustrades and according to our structural engineer the thickness depend on the height of the drop, the amount of people that are using the space and for instance if it is supposed to be used during evacuation in case of a fire.
go do it
Dec 2, 17 2:02 am
Whatever you do in relation to installing this glass baluster, don't do it.
Get your engineer / architect or whomever is designing the railing to detail the connection to the structure.
BulgarBlogger
Dec 3, 17 3:44 pm
What you dont understand is that the building code and CR Laurence dont gaurentee the strength of the glass and dont establish minimum thickness for glass
spanky82
Dec 3, 17 3:56 pm
I didn't say that they do, and that's part of the calc that has to be done for this project.
Contact the product reps they will connect you to a certified installer and help you design the system that will best work for your situation.
Mounting a handrail should not be a problem with these systems.
Best of Luck
Peter N
uscpsycho
Jan 25, 18 5:18 pm
Thank you for all the great advice. I want a continuous pane of glass without metal supports and I think the only way to achieve that is with standoffs or a base shoe.
I would just stick to a simple stainless steel shoe by CR Laurence or equal and have it detailed such that it rests directly on a structural member and it is concealed by the gypsum wall board and the floor finish so all you see is a continuous band of glass
This is my first choice and exactly what I would like to do. In fact, this is the inspiration photo that I'd like to replicate:
The problem is that I have a retrofit situation. In the photo above the shoe is next to the stairs so the shoe only rises a few inches above the stairs. In my case the shoe would have to sit on top of the stairs so it will rise up quite a bit higher. It might look fine but I'm concerned it won't look as nice as the photo above. Does anyone have an opinion of that? Or a photo of something like that so I could see it?
Here is a photo of my current stairs. The shoe would sit on top of the triangles. Although the glass guy thinks the triangles (made by my contractor) won't be stable enough and wants to build a solid continuous base for the shoe. That means the shoe would sit even higher. If these triangles are properly bolted to the stairs will they be sturdy enough to support the glass?
I have one other concern here. If the glass shoe is wrapped in drywall it will have to be matched with the existing wall to appear seamless. I am worried that over time the margin between the new shoe wrap and the existing wall will develop cracks. Is this a silly concern?
As a last resort I could do something like this where the shoe sits on top of the stairs and is fully visible. It looks modern but it doesn't have the custom, built-in, minimalist look I really want.
proto
Jan 25, 18 5:22 pm
you don't have enough structure to hold the glass as a railing, especially towards the landing area where there's less wall to brace the cantilever. you'll need to reframe the stair to get a stable-enough member in there at a low-enough location.
or
don't do a railing & use glass from floor to ceiling, which would be easier to anchor appropriately, since it isn't a cantilever. it would also be lower profile
JLC-1
Jan 25, 18 6:18 pm
the curb should be continuous and better anchored than that, wrap the boot in wood and create a skirt on the outside and on the opposite side of the stair.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 25, 18 7:20 pm
Ask you kitchen designer for help.
uscpsycho
Jan 26, 18 4:08 am
you don't have enough structure to hold the glass as a railing, especially towards the landing area where there's less wall to brace the cantilever. you'll need to reframe the stair to get a stable-enough member in there at a low-enough location.
Are you referring to my original question of using standoffs, or using a base shoe?
use glass from floor to ceiling, which would be easier to anchor appropriately, since it isn't a cantilever. it would also be lower profile
I think I know what you are proposing, but in a residence? This doesn't sound very "homey".
the curb should be continuous and better anchored than that, wrap the boot in wood and create a skirt on the outside and on the opposite side of the stair.
Those triangles haven't been anchored at all; they would be if I were to use them. But as you said, the glass guy said it should be one solid base instead of multiple pieces so that's what I'll have if I use a shoe.
When you say create a skirt, do you mean put drywall around it as in the first photo in my previous post?
First of all, let me apologize in advance if this is an inappropriate post. Most forums have rules and guidelines for who can join and what kind of questions can be asked but I didn't find any here. I don't know if this forum is only for architects or if others can participate. Some professional forums welcome civilians and some don't because they view it as giving free advice.
I am in California and want to install glass railing on my interior stairs using standoffs (like the attached photo). I need to know how thick the glass is required to be but I can't find the answer to this question anywhere and my contractor doesn't know either.
Does anyone know? Or can anyone give me some advice on finding the answer? I don't think I'm going to find the answer by searching online because this is such a specific application.
Thanks in advance for any help!
When you fall down the stairs, what do you grab on to?
... or the handrail that is on the other side of the stair and not pictured.
My first piece of advice is to fire your contractor.
My next piece of advice is to find someone to help you read the building code. If they are a contractor, hire them to replace the contractor you just fired. If they are not a contractor, have them administer the construction contract with whatever contractor you find to replace the one you just fired.
Most residential contractors don't deal with these types of systems. this is almost always handled by a sub who is certified by the vendors supplying the glass. These systems are sold as a complete package including engineering. No need for a new contractor, but an architect would be useful.
why would you read the building code? so you can fake in a handrail/guardrail and take it out after c of o? welcome to residential architecture.
The only loads you have to consider are the 200 pound point load and the 50/lf concentrated load. You can find more information in Part 2.5 of Title 24, aka the California Residential Code.
Usually, the manufacturer would only guarantee that the standoffs or shoes will be able to withstand the design loads. The glass needs to be engineered by the fabricator.
Typically, glass guardrails that are supported in this manner are not thinner than 1/2". In this case, they are in an interior and are not exposed to wind loads.
The glass seems to have a greenish tint on it, which means that it has a higher iron content. I'm not sure if the molecular composition comes into play when engineering glass, but that's a question that a fabricator might need to answer. Yet another consideration is whether you want the guardrail to be tempered, laminated, etc. Sometimes, structural glass isn't even glass, but acrylic. Again, this is something you may wan t to talk to a fabricator about.
Lastly, the following is just a personal preference, but I think it is extremely cheesy to have those standoffs in a residential setting. It might make sense in a commercial setting where you may want to relate the guardrail to an exterior curtain wall with spider fittings, but for a residence, I would just stick to a simple stainless steel shoe by CR Laurence or equal and have it detailed such that it rests directly on a structural member and it is concealed by the gypsum wall board and the floor finish so all you see is a continuous band of glass. But that's just my humble opinion.
Hope this helps.
Great response
I second the above comments and add that that type of railing is not permitted in my region.
That said, the glass thickness, lamination, and anchor are all dépendant on the lateral load required by local codes. Best to hire someone, such as an architect to get what you want
Why isn't it permitted?
15 mm is what I would need to do in this region, you might get away with 12mm depending on the side of the panel and whether you introduce a top cap to strengthen the entire assembly. we would also require an engineer to sign off on the design too.... same as a deck guardrail.
Bad design. Beyond that, stupid design.
not your house and not your money, you must be really good at landing clients.
Landing good clients. You know, those who appreciate high-quality design and construction.
Maybe you don't know.
http://www.wagnercompanies.com/domains/wagnercompanies/files/pdf/GlassRailTop.pdf
If someone like BulgarBlogger popped up to share info every time a question like this came up, this forum might actually be useful for more than laughs.
Thanks!
you know what's the most difficult part of this? to align the tops of all those panels.
Just buy a railing system from a manufacturer who knows what they're doing. They should be pre-engineering their product and tell you if it meets. Don't hire some rando glass company to make things for you if you don't know what you're doing. If you're here asking this question... let's face it... you don't know what you're doing.
http://www.handrail-design.com...
Pretty similar to what you're after.
Different thicknesses of glass for different situations. I worked on a hotel that had these kind of glass balustrades and according to our structural engineer the thickness depend on the height of the drop, the amount of people that are using the space and for instance if it is supposed to be used during evacuation in case of a fire.
Whatever you do in relation to installing this glass baluster, don't do it.
Wrong username ;)
Read this: http://www.crlaurence.com/tech...
Contact CR Laurence to get current info for the 2016 CBC: http://www.crlaurence.com/defa...
Have your design professional review CBC 1607.8.1, 2407, those chapters in their entirety, and local requirements for your project: https://codes.iccsafe.org/publ... https://codes.iccsafe.org/publ...
Get your engineer / architect or whomever is designing the railing to detail the connection to the structure.
What you dont understand is that the building code and CR Laurence dont gaurentee the strength of the glass and dont establish minimum thickness for glass
I didn't say that they do, and that's part of the calc that has to be done for this project.
http://www.crlaurence.com/apps...
Contact the product reps they will connect you to a certified installer and help you design the system that will best work for your situation.
Mounting a handrail should not be a problem with these systems.
Best of Luck
Peter N
Thank you for all the great advice. I want a continuous pane of glass without metal supports and I think the only way to achieve that is with standoffs or a base shoe.
I would just stick to a simple stainless steel shoe by CR Laurence or equal and have it detailed such that it rests directly on a structural member and it is concealed by the gypsum wall board and the floor finish so all you see is a continuous band of glass
This is my first choice and exactly what I would like to do. In fact, this is the inspiration photo that I'd like to replicate:
The problem is that I have a retrofit situation. In the photo above the shoe is next to the stairs so the shoe only rises a few inches above the stairs. In my case the shoe would have to sit on top of the stairs so it will rise up quite a bit higher. It might look fine but I'm concerned it won't look as nice as the photo above. Does anyone have an opinion of that? Or a photo of something like that so I could see it?
Here is a photo of my current stairs. The shoe would sit on top of the triangles. Although the glass guy thinks the triangles (made by my contractor) won't be stable enough and wants to build a solid continuous base for the shoe. That means the shoe would sit even higher. If these triangles are properly bolted to the stairs will they be sturdy enough to support the glass?
I have one other concern here. If the glass shoe is wrapped in drywall it will have to be matched with the existing wall to appear seamless. I am worried that over time the margin between the new shoe wrap and the existing wall will develop cracks. Is this a silly concern?
As a last resort I could do something like this where the shoe sits on top of the stairs and is fully visible. It looks modern but it doesn't have the custom, built-in, minimalist look I really want.
you don't have enough structure to hold the glass as a railing, especially towards the landing area where there's less wall to brace the cantilever. you'll need to reframe the stair to get a stable-enough member in there at a low-enough location.
or
don't do a railing & use glass from floor to ceiling, which would be easier to anchor appropriately, since it isn't a cantilever. it would also be lower profile
the curb should be continuous and better anchored than that, wrap the boot in wood and create a skirt on the outside and on the opposite side of the stair.
Ask you kitchen designer for help.
you don't have enough structure to hold the glass as a railing, especially towards the landing area where there's less wall to brace the cantilever. you'll need to reframe the stair to get a stable-enough member in there at a low-enough location.
Are you referring to my original question of using standoffs, or using a base shoe?
use glass from floor to ceiling, which would be easier to anchor appropriately, since it isn't a cantilever. it would also be lower profile
I think I know what you are proposing, but in a residence? This doesn't sound very "homey".
the curb should be continuous and better anchored than that, wrap the boot in wood and create a skirt on the outside and on the opposite side of the stair.
Those triangles haven't been anchored at all; they would be if I were to use them. But as you said, the glass guy said it should be one solid base instead of multiple pieces so that's what I'll have if I use a shoe.
When you say create a skirt, do you mean put drywall around it as in the first photo in my previous post?