I have a 36 unit 4 story residential condominium, no commercial, and the question is, does the door from the hall to each individual unit need to follow the 18" clear space on the inside (Pull Side) of the door? My architect says yes even though he designed it without, but a Major national builder builds the same product and does not meet this 18" requirement, and has built the same building all over Florida and over 100 times. This would require a major redesign of our plans, but obviously someone knows the exception.
If you don't know the answer do you know who other the government agencies that pass calls around like a hot potato, that will know the answer?
archinine
Oct 8, 17 4:22 pm
Sounds like you need a new architect. Your architect should be able to tell you exactly where in the code it says this is a requirement and where if any there is an exception. If you must get this info for free, as you imply you are attempting to do by posting here, do the architect's work by searching local jurisdiction code adherences and then digging through those copies of the code for your answer. No answer you're going to get will be accurate as you haven't stated what city and state this is in - code varies substantially by locality, and frankly it would be highly unwise to trust free internet info in regards to something this expensive.
jbdebit
Oct 8, 17 5:28 pm
Yes, the architect is not qualified for this project but Owner hired them. This is one of many examples of being told one thing and finding out it is not the case. Not looking for anything for nothing, so if someone out there has the answer I would gladly discuss compensation. The project is in Sarasota County Florida.
arch76
Oct 8, 17 6:34 pm
Look for someone local to provide a code review- as stated by archinine, regional and municipal interpretations vary, in my area, that 18" needs to be 24" for an exterior door on a multifamily residence. It could be that the other building was permitted prior to a code change. Its never going to be cheaper than right now to resolve this issue though- good luck.
JeromeS
Oct 8, 17 9:03 pm
clue: does it have a closer?
Peter Normand
Oct 10, 17 7:20 am
Also is this a walk up or an elevator served building?
archinine
Oct 9, 17 12:47 am
You should encourage this owner and so called architect to bring a code consultant on board. An architect or sometimes plan examiner who has deep knowledge of that locality's code requirements. For complex projects with fuzzy areas of code (things aren't always clear in the books for every situation and there are numberous exceptions sprinkled throughout) our clients will gladly pay to have a specialist review the drawings to avoid costly mistakes down the road.
Peter Normand
Oct 10, 17 7:22 am
LCM Architects is very good very quick. One of the top 3 accessibility consultants in the nation. http://www.lcmarchitects.com/
willks
Oct 9, 17 6:57 am
Good morning, a quick study here, it appears that Florida Building Code will require 18” pull clearance at each unit. 1) You should reach out to the local building official who is reviewing the drawings, and being careful, find out whether he requires 18” pull clearance at new residential condo units - that will not be something that you can stand behind if he changes his mind later, but you will find out how the local department is applying the code. And 2) your architect, if it is required, should have put this into drawings in the first place. You may have a claim.
Below assumes this is new construction, residential (meaning not rented more than three times a year or for less than 30 days), and not HUD-financed
Your building is governed by Florida Building Code, not Florida Residential Code (which applies only to one and two-family detached houses 3-stories or less (R101.2)
Florida Accessibility Code is a component of Florida Building Code, and applies to the following:
New or altered public buildings & facilities (not your case)
Private buildings & facilities (applies)
Places of public accommodation (not your case)
Commercial facilities (not your case)
Under Florida Accessibility Code, in residential dwelling units, at least one primary entrance shall comply with 404 (206.4.6). *Section 404 is your 18-inch clearance, and this would mean that each condo unit must have an entrance providing that clearance
Additionally, you may be required to provide accessible bathrooms (complying with shower clearances, etc): Bathroom requirements under 233.36 apply to new condominiums
If facility contains more than 15 units (yours does), then 5% of units (round up to two units) must provide mobility features complying with 809.2 through 809.4
All new condominiums must provide at least one bathroom at habitable grade level with a door with 29-inch clearance (233.3.6)
Important note on applicability: In Florida code, resort condominiums are treated as public lodging establishment (hotels or other) per 509.242, F.S. If your building is for stays less than 30 days or rented more than three times a year, yours is a Resort Condominum facility; if not, yours is a residential facility
Peter Normand
Oct 10, 17 7:25 am
This is not true the FHA design guidelines and FHA design Manual apply not ADA. In Florida typically you don't have Type A units and you don't need the door maneuvering clearance except at the outside of the unit door.
Peter Normand
Oct 16, 17 8:40 pm
Yo should read chapter 2 the scoping chapter of ADA, it does not cover every part of every building, unless federal land or money is involved.
willks
Oct 9, 17 7:14 am
And if I can add a side comment - I am not a frequent reader of this site, but I have noticed that several of our firm’s recent hires who use this site will always tell you to hire a code consultant.
There is no client in the world who does not expect that they are hiring an architect for that very reason - they expect they are hiring a professional with a working knowledge of the legal requirements of their trade. I don’t think there are a lot of principals on this forum, because there is no client relationship that is improved by telling your client you want them to pay for a code consultant on top of your fee. We have built commercial and residential projects in over 30 states, and it is an architect’s job to read and understand code - if you have a question, reach out to the state’s equivalent of the Department of Community Affairs, or whatever body is issuing the code, for clarification. And if as an Architex you are paying a consultant out of your own fee, you’re foolish, just call the building department or state office with your questions
The only place we have required a code consultant is in NYC, with Alteration 1 commercial construction under the 1968 code, and it was invaluable (consultant assisted with processing requests for Construction Code Determinations, Zoning Resolution Determinations, etc. In Chicago, LA, Miami, etc, your architect should understand the code and be able to figure it out.
won and done williams
Oct 9, 17 8:32 am
*I have noticed that several of our firm’s recent hires who use this site will always tell you to hire a code consultant.* LOL "several," huh? I would be interested to know: a. how many recent hires you have use this site and how you know that? b. how often the question of whether you need a code consultant comes up among those recent hires? Exaggerate much?
willks
Oct 9, 17 8:50 am
Interesting that it’s a holiday or I’d frankly not be on here, took a chance at answering someone’s code question, and it turns into juvenile baiting. Good reason to stay off internet forims.
willks
Oct 9, 17 8:50 am
Interesting that it’s a holiday or I’d frankly not be on here, took a chance at answering someone’s code question, and it turns into juvenile baiting. Good reason to stay off internet forims.
willks
Oct 9, 17 8:51 am
*forums.
willks
Oct 9, 17 8:55 am
I am a principal in a 35-person 27 year old practice in the NY Tri-state region. We have national commercial clients and handle code issues in every market we do business in. We recently had a HR compliance issue and terminated two people. In review of their email records there were several threads involving six staff members, full of links to archinect forums, with all kinds of pontification about salaries, code issues, etc. I don’t see how any of what I have written amounts to me being a lawyer, that’s kind of an odd suggestion, but it is definitely true that as a principal you spend more of your career than you’d imagine interpreting internal, organizational and client related issues from a legal perspective. But this is about whether an architect should be able to interpret code. And the answer is yes, with the exception of a few unique municipalities with extremely complex and unique building codes. And clients should expect an architect can do that.
won and done williams
Oct 9, 17 9:20 am
I don't disagree with your point, but you, sir, paint with a broad brush. That being said, I'd love to hear more about their pontifications. Sounds interesting.
JLC-1
Oct 9, 17 11:04 am
it's a holiday?
Peter Normand
Oct 16, 17 8:48 pm
As one of those code consultants we are often contracted by the client independently of the architect or contractor to red-line architects work. also a significant number of our clients are design build firms that use our services. FHA ADA UFAS ANSI IAC CBC all have an impact on accessibility and are often overlapping and contradicting. We often send back a lot of drawings with red-lines even to some of the big firms. Accessibility is complex and it is often to our clients benefit for a second opinion.
archinine
Oct 9, 17 10:23 am
I like how will is a principal but follows my instructions to the T, giving advice/services/time away for free, despite being the person who should be collecting/seeking fees - as a principal. He calls me a noob for suggesting a code consultant be brought in, but then immediately admits to using a code consultant for the very same jurisdiction for which my firm has employed said consultants...
It's funny when someone tries super hard to show how smart they are and winds up showing how not they are. But I'm the noob...except that I AM a code consultant at my firm for which my company charges actual dollars. In fact it's projects such as the above for which we'd be hired. Unfortunately as an industry we've got morons like will giving the milk away for free then wondering two days later why no one will buy the cow.
willks
Oct 9, 17 10:36 am
Wow these forums are amazing
Original poster sounds like a developer with a battling architect and contractor, facing a potential redesign or change order depending on the situation/progress. And his question was fundamental, do I need Ada clearance in residential condos.
Yes sounds like a good opportunity to nail him for a fee.
You’re actually in business without giving away anything for free? I’m impressed. It’s not abnormal to provide simple code clarifications for clients or others. And they don’t need to get nailed with a consulting fee for every email.
This thread isn’t that different from that situation. We have longtime paying clients who will periodically write and ask for advice on a project we are not on. Should send them a bill for the question. Or you chalk it up to maintaining the relationship.
archinine
Oct 9, 17 11:22 am
My bad will I didn't realize you had a long time relationship with OP but chose to publicly post your email thread. Kind of weird way to do business but hey what do I know.
It is funny that OP was willing to pay but you waived your hands and said nah I'll do the grunt work fo free. But yeah I'm the noob! I'd rather be a noob than a rube.
willks
Oct 9, 17 12:00 pm
you guys have significantly too much time on your hands are far too little to contribute that is actually productive.
Learned my lesson about Archinect and it’s forums pretty quickly
willks
Oct 9, 17 12:01 pm
*and far too little
Volunteer
Oct 9, 17 12:11 pm
Uh, why not ask the building inspector for clarification? It is part of what they are glad to do around here.
poop876
Oct 23, 17 9:25 pm
Inspector is there to verify that things are built per approved drawings, signed off by a professional. Most of the time, inspectors are not qualified to question approved plans.
archinine
Oct 9, 17 12:23 pm
Awesome then you'll stop giving away free info and muddling fees! Bye Felicia.
archinine
Oct 9, 17 3:24 pm
Nah I just don't like know it alls and especially don't like industry fee erosion. You know me chipper and mouth shut tight in the office as always.
Koww
Oct 9, 17 4:31 pm
architects aren't taught how building codes are interpreted in bumfuck florida...that's what code consultants are for
Non Sequitur
Oct 9, 17 4:55 pm
florida architects should.
Peter Normand
Oct 23, 17 9:15 pm
So I hope everyone realizes that when people post on these forums you may be speaking to someone who needs an architect or code consultant and could be a potential client. If you want to advocate for the profession it might be a good idea to keep things positive, professional and not besmirch people with "So-Called Architect" or accusing someone of freeloading. People posting or following these threads may end up as clients employers or collaborators in the future. Best not to poison the well before you know if it is good or not.
Over and OUT
Peter N
randomised
Oct 24, 17 12:34 am
10-4 That's why I do all my besmirching and well poisoning hiding safely from behind a nom de plume. Over
I have a 36 unit 4 story residential condominium, no commercial, and the question is, does the door from the hall to each individual unit need to follow the 18" clear space on the inside (Pull Side) of the door? My architect says yes even though he designed it without, but a Major national builder builds the same product and does not meet this 18" requirement, and has built the same building all over Florida and over 100 times. This would require a major redesign of our plans, but obviously someone knows the exception.
If you don't know the answer do you know who other the government agencies that pass calls around like a hot potato, that will know the answer?
Sounds like you need a new architect. Your architect should be able to tell you exactly where in the code it says this is a requirement and where if any there is an exception. If you must get this info for free, as you imply you are attempting to do by posting here, do the architect's work by searching local jurisdiction code adherences and then digging through those copies of the code for your answer. No answer you're going to get will be accurate as you haven't stated what city and state this is in - code varies substantially by locality, and frankly it would be highly unwise to trust free internet info in regards to something this expensive.
Yes, the architect is not qualified for this project but Owner hired them. This is one of many examples of being told one thing and finding out it is not the case. Not looking for anything for nothing, so if someone out there has the answer I would gladly discuss compensation. The project is in Sarasota County Florida.
Look for someone local to provide a code review- as stated by archinine, regional and municipal interpretations vary, in my area, that 18" needs to be 24" for an exterior door on a multifamily residence. It could be that the other building was permitted prior to a code change. Its never going to be cheaper than right now to resolve this issue though- good luck.
clue: does it have a closer?
Also is this a walk up or an elevator served building?
You should encourage this owner and so called architect to bring a code consultant on board. An architect or sometimes plan examiner who has deep knowledge of that locality's code requirements. For complex projects with fuzzy areas of code (things aren't always clear in the books for every situation and there are numberous exceptions sprinkled throughout) our clients will gladly pay to have a specialist review the drawings to avoid costly mistakes down the road.
LCM Architects is very good very quick. One of the top 3 accessibility consultants in the nation. http://www.lcmarchitects.com/
Good morning, a quick study here, it appears that Florida Building Code will require 18” pull clearance at each unit. 1) You should reach out to the local building official who is reviewing the drawings, and being careful, find out whether he requires 18” pull clearance at new residential condo units - that will not be something that you can stand behind if he changes his mind later, but you will find out how the local department is applying the code. And 2) your architect, if it is required, should have put this into drawings in the first place. You may have a claim.
Below assumes this is new construction, residential (meaning not rented more than three times a year or for less than 30 days), and not HUD-financed
Important note on applicability: In Florida code, resort condominiums are treated as public lodging establishment (hotels or other) per 509.242, F.S. If your building is for stays less than 30 days or rented more than three times a year, yours is a Resort Condominum facility; if not, yours is a residential facility
This is not true the FHA design guidelines and FHA design Manual apply not ADA. In Florida typically you don't have Type A units and you don't need the door maneuvering clearance except at the outside of the unit door.
Yo should read chapter 2 the scoping chapter of ADA, it does not cover every part of every building, unless federal land or money is involved.
And if I can add a side comment - I am not a frequent reader of this site, but I have noticed that several of our firm’s recent hires who use this site will always tell you to hire a code consultant.
There is no client in the world who does not expect that they are hiring an architect for that very reason - they expect they are hiring a professional with a working knowledge of the legal requirements of their trade. I don’t think there are a lot of principals on this forum, because there is no client relationship that is improved by telling your client you want them to pay for a code consultant on top of your fee. We have built commercial and residential projects in over 30 states, and it is an architect’s job to read and understand code - if you have a question, reach out to the state’s equivalent of the Department of Community Affairs, or whatever body is issuing the code, for clarification. And if as an Architex you are paying a consultant out of your own fee, you’re foolish, just call the building department or state office with your questions
The only place we have required a code consultant is in NYC, with Alteration 1 commercial construction under the 1968 code, and it was invaluable (consultant assisted with processing requests for Construction Code Determinations, Zoning Resolution Determinations, etc. In Chicago, LA, Miami, etc, your architect should understand the code and be able to figure it out.
*I have noticed that several of our firm’s recent hires who use this site will always tell you to hire a code consultant.* LOL "several," huh? I would be interested to know: a. how many recent hires you have use this site and how you know that? b. how often the question of whether you need a code consultant comes up among those recent hires? Exaggerate much?
Interesting that it’s a holiday or I’d frankly not be on here, took a chance at answering someone’s code question, and it turns into juvenile baiting. Good reason to stay off internet forims.
Interesting that it’s a holiday or I’d frankly not be on here, took a chance at answering someone’s code question, and it turns into juvenile baiting. Good reason to stay off internet forims.
*forums.
I am a principal in a 35-person 27 year old practice in the NY Tri-state region. We have national commercial clients and handle code issues in every market we do business in. We recently had a HR compliance issue and terminated two people. In review of their email records there were several threads involving six staff members, full of links to archinect forums, with all kinds of pontification about salaries, code issues, etc. I don’t see how any of what I have written amounts to me being a lawyer, that’s kind of an odd suggestion, but it is definitely true that as a principal you spend more of your career than you’d imagine interpreting internal, organizational and client related issues from a legal perspective. But this is about whether an architect should be able to interpret code. And the answer is yes, with the exception of a few unique municipalities with extremely complex and unique building codes. And clients should expect an architect can do that.
I don't disagree with your point, but you, sir, paint with a broad brush. That being said, I'd love to hear more about their pontifications. Sounds interesting.
it's a holiday?
As one of those code consultants we are often contracted by the client independently of the architect or contractor to red-line architects work. also a significant number of our clients are design build firms that use our services. FHA ADA UFAS ANSI IAC CBC all have an impact on accessibility and are often overlapping and contradicting. We often send back a lot of drawings with red-lines even to some of the big firms. Accessibility is complex and it is often to our clients benefit for a second opinion.
I like how will is a principal but follows my instructions to the T, giving advice/services/time away for free, despite being the person who should be collecting/seeking fees - as a principal. He calls me a noob for suggesting a code consultant be brought in, but then immediately admits to using a code consultant for the very same jurisdiction for which my firm has employed said consultants...
It's funny when someone tries super hard to show how smart they are and winds up showing how not they are. But I'm the noob...except that I AM a code consultant at my firm for which my company charges actual dollars. In fact it's projects such as the above for which we'd be hired. Unfortunately as an industry we've got morons like will giving the milk away for free then wondering two days later why no one will buy the cow.
Wow these forums are amazing
Original poster sounds like a developer with a battling architect and contractor, facing a potential redesign or change order depending on the situation/progress. And his question was fundamental, do I need Ada clearance in residential condos.
Yes sounds like a good opportunity to nail him for a fee.
You’re actually in business without giving away anything for free? I’m impressed. It’s not abnormal to provide simple code clarifications for clients or others. And they don’t need to get nailed with a consulting fee for every email.
This thread isn’t that different from that situation. We have longtime paying clients who will periodically write and ask for advice on a project we are not on. Should send them a bill for the question. Or you chalk it up to maintaining the relationship.
My bad will I didn't realize you had a long time relationship with OP but chose to publicly post your email thread. Kind of weird way to do business but hey what do I know.
It is funny that OP was willing to pay but you waived your hands and said nah I'll do the grunt work fo free. But yeah I'm the noob! I'd rather be a noob than a rube.
you guys have significantly too much time on your hands are far too little to contribute that is actually productive.
Learned my lesson about Archinect and it’s forums pretty quickly
*and far too little
Uh, why not ask the building inspector for clarification? It is part of what they are glad to do around here.
Inspector is there to verify that things are built per approved drawings, signed off by a professional. Most of the time, inspectors are not qualified to question approved plans.
Awesome then you'll stop giving away free info and muddling fees! Bye Felicia.
Nah I just don't like know it alls and especially don't like industry fee erosion. You know me chipper and mouth shut tight in the office as always.
architects aren't taught how building codes are interpreted in bumfuck florida...that's what code consultants are for
florida architects should.
So I hope everyone realizes that when people post on these forums you may be speaking to someone who needs an architect or code consultant and could be a potential client. If you want to advocate for the profession it might be a good idea to keep things positive, professional and not besmirch people with "So-Called Architect" or accusing someone of freeloading. People posting or following these threads may end up as clients employers or collaborators in the future. Best not to poison the well before you know if it is good or not.
Over and OUT
Peter N
10-4 That's why I do all my besmirching and well poisoning hiding safely from behind a nom de plume. Over