I'm in the process of buying a house. During the inspection, the inspector noted several holes in the roof plywood and substantial mold. I solicited two bids from roofing contractors, submitted those bids to the seller, and requested seller's assistance to cover the cost.
In return, the seller provided me with a letter documenting an evaluation of the roof by an architect. The evaluation notes the holes in the plywood but goes on to conclude that the roof is in "excellent condition" and requires no maintenance or repair at the current time. I recognized the name of the architect as the same name of the previous owners who sold the house to the seller (small town). I knew the name from researching the deed prior to bidding. I did a little sleuthing and discovered that the architect was the previous owner's father. The architect stamped and signed his evaluation, which makes no disclosure of his relationship to the property (and possibly the seller).
Would you judge this as a conflict of interest? As a Professional Engineer, if I was faced with similar circumstances I would feel obligated to disclose my relationship to the project/seller along with any evaluation I provided (especially so if I was stamping).
Looking for some input on whether others feel this is a conflict of interest, no big deal, and whether or not I should call the guy out.
geezertect
May 24, 17 6:21 pm
Of course it's a conflict of interest. His evaluation has as much credibility as if it came from the owner himself. If you are comfortable with your inspector, go with his opinion. If he found substantial mold, then assume it's true and make your purchase decision accordingly.
chigurh
May 24, 17 6:26 pm
Real estate and ethics are polar opposites.
As a buyer you can push the issue and ask the seller to repair the roof, likely, they are going to tell you to screw off. How bad do you want the house? If you want it then suck it up and be prepared to make the repairs required. If you want to make an issue out of it, be prepared to keep looking.
An architect typically doesn't have the training to be an inspector, you could report him to the state board and explain the nepotism in the situation, but that isn't going to help your cause.
There are all sorts of shady kick-backs and fake inspections in real estate deals. As a buyer, remember that everybody involved makes money when you sign on the dotted line except you.
chigurh
May 25, 17 12:02 pm
why? I don't want to inspect buildings. Yes, an architect can get training to become an inspector...but what would be the point, unless you want to run a side gig going in shitty crawlspaces and attics in 100 degree weather. No thanks.
chigurh
May 25, 17 2:22 pm
You need a job? get your headlamp...
Volunteer
May 24, 17 6:27 pm
Get the roof fixed by the seller to your and your inspector's satisfaction or walk away from the house.
proto
May 24, 17 7:07 pm
never get the seller to do fixes; they will cheap it out and you won't know how until later...get bids to fix and then get the cash (or reduce the price) and do it with someone you trust to your satisfaction. the less a seller does to "improve" the house, the better...just less shit to un-fix
Miles Jaffe
May 24, 17 6:53 pm
Just for kicks, you could offer to buy the house for a ridiculously low sum. When the seller balks, offer to sue him for misrepresenting the condition of the property and disclose your evidence.
Newspapers LOVE this kind of story, and many TV networks have citizen advocates (I'm Mike Boguslawski, and I'm in your corner!) who make their bread and butter on this kind of crap.
I'm sure the local architectural and real estate licensing boards would find the story amusing. If you're really serious, your state attorney general's office is worth a call. They are big guns, and it doesn't cost you a cent.
Aside from that, ditch the broker and RUN from mold, especially if it's black. If you see that shit anywhere odds are the place is riddled with it.
tonyml365
May 24, 17 7:00 pm
Thanks for confirming what I already expected to be the case. I was really pissed when I received the letter and wanted to confirm that I was thinking about it clearly. When I looked up the architect's license with the State Board, I found that he was previously fined for practicing with an expired license for 2 years. Maybe I'll file a complaint with the board.
Non Sequitur
May 24, 17 7:36 pm
Pass on the house.
x-jla
May 24, 17 7:57 pm
Lol. what a shit head that architect is. Have the inspector and roofing contractor provide formal letters of the repairs required and costs. Send those, as well as a letter from your realtor calling him out on the conflict of interest. Make it a condition that the seller pay for the repairs through one of the companies that provided you the estimate due to the untrustworthy behavior displayed. If they do not agree just walk away.
tonyml365
May 24, 17 10:54 pm
Thank you everyone for the advice. My original offer following the inspection included detailed references to the specific contractors and scopes of work that I desired. I wrote the document in this way because I have been suspicious of basically everyone involved in realty transactions in my market from the start (i.e., realtors, sellers, inspectors, appraisers, lenders, etc.). My final response to the seller is either going to be (1) a reiteration of my original offer, or (2) fuck off. Still trying to decide with my wife which we decide is best.
shellarchitect
May 25, 17 7:18 am
The house I live in now had pretty bad mold in the attic, due to a disconnected bathroom fan spewing warm moist air into the attic. The seller had it remediated, contractor provided proof and warranty that the work was done, and we are happy with the purchase.
In your case I would not trust the sellers architect, it is beyond his training. It could be that the roof is in good condition, and small holes in the sheathing aren't a big problem, but mold can be. Have the contractors you contacted discussed how to prevent mold from returning if it is removed?
Without addressing the source it will be a reoccurring issue.
Do you love the house otherwise?
Volunteer
May 25, 17 10:10 am
This is also a test for your realtor. Is he/she advising to let it slide or is insisting that the roof be completely repaired and the mold removed before proceeding?
geezertect
May 25, 17 11:28 am
The realtor isn't going to get involved, and you can't blame him/her. The OP doesn't say anything about using a buyer's agent, so the only realtor involved would be the seller's agent.
tonyml365
May 25, 17 11:52 am
I do have a buyers agent. She is very skilled and fairly honest in my assessment, but I don't 100% trust her. After receiving the architect's letter, I immediately called her and questioned the relationship between the architect and former owner and she confirmed that the architect was the father. I can't say for certain if she would have brought this to my attention had I not realized it from my deed research. She pushed back on the seller's agent that we would not consider the evaluation.
She's been fairly neutral and has not tried to influence my decision making. So far, she supports whatever call I make, but it's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes.
chigurh
May 25, 17 11:55 am
she is going to get paid when you sign.
Bloopox
May 25, 17 12:03 pm
Yes, the architect's relationship to the seller makes this an ethical conflict of interest. Whether the architecture board will judge that it rises to the level of unethical conduct is iffy, but they may take it more seriously because this architect has been fined before. You might want to take a look at the outcome of architecture board cases in your state before you invest time and effort - in some they act pretty quickly, find against architects often, and levy substantial fines. In others investigations average 2.5 years, the all-time record fine is $1000, and they find against architects 12% of the time.
If that state licenses house inspectors then you might get him a fine or a hand-slapping by reporting him for unlicensed practice - but many states have no training or education requirements, or licensing, for house inspectors at all - in my state anyone can buy a laminated flip-chart or an inspector app and call themselves a house inspector. Most of the mold remediation contractors around here are also house inspectors on the side, so there can be conflicts of interest there too.
chigurh
May 25, 17 12:08 pm
If this dude pushes the issue, the seller is going to tell him to screw off. It's a sellers market and they can just take the next offer that won't make an issue out of it. I'm sure the repairs you are talking about aren't cheap - that is all loss of profit.
Volunteer
May 25, 17 12:10 pm
I had a similar situation with my realtor. The house we were purchasing had a laundry list of small items that the inspector and I found while doing the house inspection. I preferred to wait and fix most of them myself after the purchase but there was one item, a brick column that held up a small concrete rear porch, that needed work. I requested through my realtor that they repair it and she reported back that the owner did not think it was necessary. She said we should insist that it be repaired or we walk. The owner, a lawyer no less, had it repaired with no further argument.
I'm in the process of buying a house. During the inspection, the inspector noted several holes in the roof plywood and substantial mold. I solicited two bids from roofing contractors, submitted those bids to the seller, and requested seller's assistance to cover the cost.
In return, the seller provided me with a letter documenting an evaluation of the roof by an architect. The evaluation notes the holes in the plywood but goes on to conclude that the roof is in "excellent condition" and requires no maintenance or repair at the current time. I recognized the name of the architect as the same name of the previous owners who sold the house to the seller (small town). I knew the name from researching the deed prior to bidding. I did a little sleuthing and discovered that the architect was the previous owner's father. The architect stamped and signed his evaluation, which makes no disclosure of his relationship to the property (and possibly the seller).
Would you judge this as a conflict of interest? As a Professional Engineer, if I was faced with similar circumstances I would feel obligated to disclose my relationship to the project/seller along with any evaluation I provided (especially so if I was stamping).
Looking for some input on whether others feel this is a conflict of interest, no big deal, and whether or not I should call the guy out.
Of course it's a conflict of interest. His evaluation has as much credibility as if it came from the owner himself. If you are comfortable with your inspector, go with his opinion. If he found substantial mold, then assume it's true and make your purchase decision accordingly.
Real estate and ethics are polar opposites.
As a buyer you can push the issue and ask the seller to repair the roof, likely, they are going to tell you to screw off. How bad do you want the house? If you want it then suck it up and be prepared to make the repairs required. If you want to make an issue out of it, be prepared to keep looking.
An architect typically doesn't have the training to be an inspector, you could report him to the state board and explain the nepotism in the situation, but that isn't going to help your cause.
There are all sorts of shady kick-backs and fake inspections in real estate deals. As a buyer, remember that everybody involved makes money when you sign on the dotted line except you.
why? I don't want to inspect buildings. Yes, an architect can get training to become an inspector...but what would be the point, unless you want to run a side gig going in shitty crawlspaces and attics in 100 degree weather. No thanks.
You need a job? get your headlamp...
Get the roof fixed by the seller to your and your inspector's satisfaction or walk away from the house.
never get the seller to do fixes; they will cheap it out and you won't know how until later...get bids to fix and then get the cash (or reduce the price) and do it with someone you trust to your satisfaction. the less a seller does to "improve" the house, the better...just less shit to un-fix
Just for kicks, you could offer to buy the house for a ridiculously low sum. When the seller balks, offer to sue him for misrepresenting the condition of the property and disclose your evidence.
Newspapers LOVE this kind of story, and many TV networks have citizen advocates (I'm Mike Boguslawski, and I'm in your corner!) who make their bread and butter on this kind of crap.
I'm sure the local architectural and real estate licensing boards would find the story amusing. If you're really serious, your state attorney general's office is worth a call. They are big guns, and it doesn't cost you a cent.
Aside from that, ditch the broker and RUN from mold, especially if it's black. If you see that shit anywhere odds are the place is riddled with it.
Thanks for confirming what I already expected to be the case. I was really pissed when I received the letter and wanted to confirm that I was thinking about it clearly. When I looked up the architect's license with the State Board, I found that he was previously fined for practicing with an expired license for 2 years. Maybe I'll file a complaint with the board.
Pass on the house.
Lol. what a shit head that architect is. Have the inspector and roofing contractor provide formal letters of the repairs required and costs. Send those, as well as a letter from your realtor calling him out on the conflict of interest. Make it a condition that the seller pay for the repairs through one of the companies that provided you the estimate due to the untrustworthy behavior displayed. If they do not agree just walk away.
Thank you everyone for the advice. My original offer following the inspection included detailed references to the specific contractors and scopes of work that I desired. I wrote the document in this way because I have been suspicious of basically everyone involved in realty transactions in my market from the start (i.e., realtors, sellers, inspectors, appraisers, lenders, etc.). My final response to the seller is either going to be (1) a reiteration of my original offer, or (2) fuck off. Still trying to decide with my wife which we decide is best.
The house I live in now had pretty bad mold in the attic, due to a disconnected bathroom fan spewing warm moist air into the attic. The seller had it remediated, contractor provided proof and warranty that the work was done, and we are happy with the purchase.
In your case I would not trust the sellers architect, it is beyond his training. It could be that the roof is in good condition, and small holes in the sheathing aren't a big problem, but mold can be. Have the contractors you contacted discussed how to prevent mold from returning if it is removed?
Without addressing the source it will be a reoccurring issue.
Do you love the house otherwise?
This is also a test for your realtor. Is he/she advising to let it slide or is insisting that the roof be completely repaired and the mold removed before proceeding?
The realtor isn't going to get involved, and you can't blame him/her. The OP doesn't say anything about using a buyer's agent, so the only realtor involved would be the seller's agent.
I do have a buyers agent. She is very skilled and fairly honest in my assessment, but I don't 100% trust her. After receiving the architect's letter, I immediately called her and questioned the relationship between the architect and former owner and she confirmed that the architect was the father. I can't say for certain if she would have brought this to my attention had I not realized it from my deed research. She pushed back on the seller's agent that we would not consider the evaluation.
She's been fairly neutral and has not tried to influence my decision making. So far, she supports whatever call I make, but it's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes.
she is going to get paid when you sign.
Yes, the architect's relationship to the seller makes this an ethical conflict of interest. Whether the architecture board will judge that it rises to the level of unethical conduct is iffy, but they may take it more seriously because this architect has been fined before. You might want to take a look at the outcome of architecture board cases in your state before you invest time and effort - in some they act pretty quickly, find against architects often, and levy substantial fines. In others investigations average 2.5 years, the all-time record fine is $1000, and they find against architects 12% of the time.
If that state licenses house inspectors then you might get him a fine or a hand-slapping by reporting him for unlicensed practice - but many states have no training or education requirements, or licensing, for house inspectors at all - in my state anyone can buy a laminated flip-chart or an inspector app and call themselves a house inspector. Most of the mold remediation contractors around here are also house inspectors on the side, so there can be conflicts of interest there too.
If this dude pushes the issue, the seller is going to tell him to screw off. It's a sellers market and they can just take the next offer that won't make an issue out of it. I'm sure the repairs you are talking about aren't cheap - that is all loss of profit.
I had a similar situation with my realtor. The house we were purchasing had a laundry list of small items that the inspector and I found while doing the house inspection. I preferred to wait and fix most of them myself after the purchase but there was one item, a brick column that held up a small concrete rear porch, that needed work. I requested through my realtor that they repair it and she reported back that the owner did not think it was necessary. She said we should insist that it be repaired or we walk. The owner, a lawyer no less, had it repaired with no further argument.