certifying by affixing the licensee's signature and seal to documents for which the professional services have not been performed by, OR thoroughly reviewed by, the licensee; or failing to prepare and retain a written evaluation of the professional services represented by such documents in accordance with the following requirements:
would the meaning change if "or" was substituted with "and"? Does compliance with one stipulation in that sentence present non-compliance with the other?
geezertect
Feb 21, 17 5:33 pm
Yes. "Or" gives the architect permission to stamp work that he has not performed, only reviewed. "And" would mean that he has to review the work he has done, which seems like a silly redundancy. It goes without saying that a professional should pay attention to what he is doing while he is doing it.
BulgarBlogger
Feb 21, 17 5:47 pm
So that would then mean that architects are allowed to "rubber stamp" drawings. Why would the AIA then release a statement stating the contrary?
curtkram
Feb 21, 17 6:12 pm
for one thing, the aia of new york is not a lawyer. do you know if they sought real legal advise before publishing this?
for two things, their definition of 'rubber stamp' isn't all that clear. maybe they specifically mean using an architect's seal without the architect thoroughly reviewing the documents?
i can see why you would want them to be more clear on that.
bowling_ball
Feb 21, 17 6:39 pm
If the architect of record is reviewing the documents thoroughly, there shouldn't be an issue. That's the entire reason for the term "architect of record" to exist.
Hell, a thorough review by the stamping architect is more than what's done at any large office, anyway. No architect has time to actually review several thousand pages of drawings and specs each year, I don't care who you are.
geezertect
Feb 21, 17 6:52 pm
^ Exactly. You use the same standard of care that you would use in supervising an employee in your own office. Nobody expects the architect of record himself to draw every line on the drawings. The purpose is to ensure that a stamped set of drawings have met the required standard of profession competence and accuracy.
Who knows what motivates the AIA.
mightyaa
Feb 21, 17 8:10 pm
Where did the quote come from? Context matters since several of them also cover other licenses...
The third link is interesting. New York apparently still has the "convicted of a crime" clause without many qualifiers. Also the drug or alcohol addictions. So somewhat common felony crimes are DUI, drug possession, etc. ....
Bloopox
Feb 21, 17 9:43 pm
The AIA's statement is not in conflict with NY's provision that an architect can stamp drawings that he didn't prepare if he thoroughly reviews the drawings and prepares a written record of his review. See the paragraph in the AIA statement directly below the one headed "Rubber Stamping".
Note this is a NY-specific thing though. Almost all other states specifically require that the architect supervise the production of the drawings during their production - not just review them afterward. The latter constitutes illegal "plan stamping" in most states, regardless of whether the architect reviews them and keeps a written record of the review. Some states stipulate that this supervision of production must occur continuously on the same premises, while others allow periodic and/or remote supervision.
b3tadine[sutures]
Feb 22, 17 5:45 am
Minnesota:
1800.4200 CERTIFICATION AND SIGNATURE ON PLANS.
Subpart 1. Requirement. The certification and signature on plans, specifications, plats, reports, etc., is mandatory, as provided by Minnesota Statutes, section 326.12, subdivision 3. A person in direct supervision of work as referred to in the foregoing subdivision is construed to mean the person whose professional skill and judgment are embodied in the document signed, and who assumes responsibility for the accuracy and adequacy thereof.
I hereby certify that this plan, specification, or report was prepared by me or under my direct supervision and that I am a duly Licensed Architect under the laws of the state of Minnesota.
Signature: ______________ Typed or Printed Name: _______________
1805.1600 RESPONSIBLE CHARGE AND DIRECT SUPERVISION.
Subpart 1. Responsible charge; defined. A person in responsible charge of architectural, engineering, land surveying, landscape architectural, geoscience, or certified interior design work as used in Minnesota Statutes, section 326.14 means the person who determines design policy, including technical aspects, advises with the client, superintends subordinates during the course of the work and, in general, the person whose professional skill and judgment are embodied in the plans, designs, and advice involved in the work. Plans and specifications for buildings, structures, or projects of standard design which have been designed outside the state shall bear the certification of the design professional licensed in another United States licensing jurisdiction. In addition, a Minnesota licensed architect, professional engineer, land surveyor, landscape architect, professional geologist, professional soil scientist, or certified interior designer shall review the design and certify that it is appropriate to the site on which construction is proposed and is in compliance with the State Building Code adopted by the Department of Administration where the building code is in effect.
Subp. 2. Direct supervision; defined. A person in direct supervision of work as referred to in Minnesota Statutes, section 326.12, subdivision 3, means that person who is the employer, an employee of the same firm, or who is under contract to or from another firm and who is in responsible charge of the technical aspects of the architectural, engineering, land surveying, landscape architectural, geoscience, or certified interior design work in progress, and whose professional skill and judgment are embodied in the plans, specifications, reports, plats, or other documents required to be certified pursuant to that subdivision. A person in direct supervision of work directs the work of other licensees, interns, draftspersons, technicians, and clerical persons assigned to that work and is in responsible charge of the project comprising the work being supervised.
BulgarBlogger
Sep 7, 18 12:57 pm
I just put this issue to bed... called the state board and the executive director totally dismantled the argument about the use of the phrase "OR THOROUGHLY REVIEWED BY THE ARCHITECT" to justify non-licensed persons having an Architect of Record stamp drawings. The use of the conjunction "OR" is meant to cover cases in which the Architect is not always in the office and simply affixes the stamp and signs the instruments of service without thoroughly reviewing them. It should never be construed that non-licensed persons can simply hand over drawings to a licensed architect and have him/her affix his/her stamp/signature and thereby circumvent the law. The reason a lot of people see this happen is because the Board acknowledged that there is a lot of illegal practice. So if you see something like this, I encourage you to call the state board and call out those people who are offering architectural services without a license and who pay a "Rubber Stamper"
kjdt
Sep 7, 18 1:06 pm
I hope that executive director conveys that to the state investigators, as that's unfortunately not the interpretation that they apply to these cases in New York. I reported one - the contractor/"designer" who did the drawings had contacted me for a plan stamp, I declined, but he found another architect to "thoroughly review" the set and submitted it for permit with that person's stamp 3 days after he contacted me! I sent it to the state because I felt it was impossible/irresponsible for anybody to review it in that amount of time, and they responded that there was no violation, it was in keeping with the statute.
Just found this:
http://www.aialongisland.com/what_s_legal_whats_not.pdf
(Read section about “rubber stamping.”)
http://www.op.nysed.gov/title8/part29.htm
(Scroll down to § 29.3* General provisions for design professions.)
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2012/edn/title-8/article-130-ast/sub-art.-3/6509/
How do you all read this paragraph:
certifying by affixing the licensee's signature and seal to documents for which the professional services have not been performed by, OR thoroughly reviewed by, the licensee; or failing to prepare and retain a written evaluation of the professional services represented by such documents in accordance with the following requirements:
would the meaning change if "or" was substituted with "and"? Does compliance with one stipulation in that sentence present non-compliance with the other?
Yes. "Or" gives the architect permission to stamp work that he has not performed, only reviewed. "And" would mean that he has to review the work he has done, which seems like a silly redundancy. It goes without saying that a professional should pay attention to what he is doing while he is doing it.
So that would then mean that architects are allowed to "rubber stamp" drawings. Why would the AIA then release a statement stating the contrary?
for one thing, the aia of new york is not a lawyer. do you know if they sought real legal advise before publishing this?
for two things, their definition of 'rubber stamp' isn't all that clear. maybe they specifically mean using an architect's seal without the architect thoroughly reviewing the documents?
i can see why you would want them to be more clear on that.
If the architect of record is reviewing the documents thoroughly, there shouldn't be an issue. That's the entire reason for the term "architect of record" to exist. Hell, a thorough review by the stamping architect is more than what's done at any large office, anyway. No architect has time to actually review several thousand pages of drawings and specs each year, I don't care who you are.
^ Exactly. You use the same standard of care that you would use in supervising an employee in your own office. Nobody expects the architect of record himself to draw every line on the drawings. The purpose is to ensure that a stamped set of drawings have met the required standard of profession competence and accuracy.
Who knows what motivates the AIA.
Where did the quote come from? Context matters since several of them also cover other licenses...
The third link is interesting. New York apparently still has the "convicted of a crime" clause without many qualifiers. Also the drug or alcohol addictions. So somewhat common felony crimes are DUI, drug possession, etc. ....
The AIA's statement is not in conflict with NY's provision that an architect can stamp drawings that he didn't prepare if he thoroughly reviews the drawings and prepares a written record of his review. See the paragraph in the AIA statement directly below the one headed "Rubber Stamping".
Note this is a NY-specific thing though. Almost all other states specifically require that the architect supervise the production of the drawings during their production - not just review them afterward. The latter constitutes illegal "plan stamping" in most states, regardless of whether the architect reviews them and keeps a written record of the review. Some states stipulate that this supervision of production must occur continuously on the same premises, while others allow periodic and/or remote supervision.
Minnesota:
1800.4200 CERTIFICATION AND SIGNATURE ON PLANS.
Subpart 1. Requirement. The certification and signature on plans, specifications, plats, reports, etc., is mandatory, as provided by Minnesota Statutes, section 326.12, subdivision 3. A person in direct supervision of work as referred to in the foregoing subdivision is construed to mean the person whose professional skill and judgment are embodied in the document signed, and who assumes responsibility for the accuracy and adequacy thereof.
I hereby certify that this plan, specification, or report was prepared by me or under my direct supervision and that I am a duly Licensed Architect under the laws of the state of Minnesota.
Signature: ______________ Typed or Printed Name: _______________
Date_____________________ Lic. No.____________________
1805.1600 RESPONSIBLE CHARGE AND DIRECT SUPERVISION.
Subpart 1. Responsible charge; defined. A person in responsible charge of architectural, engineering, land surveying, landscape architectural, geoscience, or certified interior design work as used in Minnesota Statutes, section 326.14 means the person who determines design policy, including technical aspects, advises with the client, superintends subordinates during the course of the work and, in general, the person whose professional skill and judgment are embodied in the plans, designs, and advice involved in the work. Plans and specifications for buildings, structures, or projects of standard design which have been designed outside the state shall bear the certification of the design professional licensed in another United States licensing jurisdiction. In addition, a Minnesota licensed architect, professional engineer, land surveyor, landscape architect, professional geologist, professional soil scientist, or certified interior designer shall review the design and certify that it is appropriate to the site on which construction is proposed and is in compliance with the State Building Code adopted by the Department of Administration where the building code is in effect.
Subp. 2. Direct supervision; defined. A person in direct supervision of work as referred to in Minnesota Statutes, section 326.12, subdivision 3, means that person who is the employer, an employee of the same firm, or who is under contract to or from another firm and who is in responsible charge of the technical aspects of the architectural, engineering, land surveying, landscape architectural, geoscience, or certified interior design work in progress, and whose professional skill and judgment are embodied in the plans, specifications, reports, plats, or other documents required to be certified pursuant to that subdivision. A person in direct supervision of work directs the work of other licensees, interns, draftspersons, technicians, and clerical persons assigned to that work and is in responsible charge of the project comprising the work being supervised.
I just put this issue to bed... called the state board and the executive director totally dismantled the argument about the use of the phrase "OR THOROUGHLY REVIEWED BY THE ARCHITECT" to justify non-licensed persons having an Architect of Record stamp drawings. The use of the conjunction "OR" is meant to cover cases in which the Architect is not always in the office and simply affixes the stamp and signs the instruments of service without thoroughly reviewing them. It should never be construed that non-licensed persons can simply hand over drawings to a licensed architect and have him/her affix his/her stamp/signature and thereby circumvent the law. The reason a lot of people see this happen is because the Board acknowledged that there is a lot of illegal practice. So if you see something like this, I encourage you to call the state board and call out those people who are offering architectural services without a license and who pay a "Rubber Stamper"
I hope that executive director conveys that to the state investigators, as that's unfortunately not the interpretation that they apply to these cases in New York. I reported one - the contractor/"designer" who did the drawings had contacted me for a plan stamp, I declined, but he found another architect to "thoroughly review" the set and submitted it for permit with that person's stamp 3 days after he contacted me! I sent it to the state because I felt it was impossible/irresponsible for anybody to review it in that amount of time, and they responded that there was no violation, it was in keeping with the statute.