I've been with my current firm for 3.5 years. Recently licensed. Along with a decent salary, comes a LOT of hard work as a project manager on several projects.
Current firm offers many perks and nobody ever stares over my shoulder. It's expected that one day I'll take over the firm as an owner (this comes directly from the owners, whom I feel are at least half -serious). Lastly, my projects are developer-driven and extremely uninspiring, and this isn't likely to change. My value is a result of my niche experience.
I was called by a former manager yesterday to meet for a drink. I expected a job offer and that's what I got. "What will it take for you to come work for me? I need you.". I told him I'd think it over. I know the owners all personally, as well as half the staff. Their work is thoughtful and respected.
So....I can stay at the current, comfortable firm where the work is hard and projects are boring, with the potential future option of buying into ownership as an insider. Or I can jump ship to a firm whose work I respect, for owners and managers I already know, for better or worse. No opportunity for ownership. I would be black-balled from my current firm forever, because the new bosses are former employees of my current firm, and that's a sore spot.
Again, sorry for the wall of text. Maybe I just needed to get this off my chest. I have an important choice to make, and not much time to make it.
Thoughts? Opinions? Experiences?
Flatfish
Sep 3, 16 11:00 pm
The only advice I can add from experience is not to count on "expectations" that you'll one day be an owner - unless you sit down with the current owners and make a concrete plan for that, and get it in writing - and even then don't count on it. I got that "expectation" directly from the owners of THREE different firms, before I finally started my own firm, because none of the three panned out. It's probably not that they're telling you that just to keep you there and string you along - it's just that things don't always work out with those promises. People drag their feet because they don't really feel ready to relinquish a part of their firm yet, or the firm suffers or downsizes or tanks altogether during an economic downswing, or the original partners aren't all as solidly on the same page about an attrition plan as they or you think they are...
That said, you haven't given any compelling reasons to jump ship, except that you're bored. So I guess you need to assess just how bored you are, and if it's enough to justify a change. Either choice seems reasonable and viable.
Sorry, wrong thread. Start up yourself and make sure you have clients, don't steal them from any former employers or clients, or fellow work mates, past or present.
bowling_ball
Sep 4, 16 12:46 am
Thanks 5839.
That's what I'm going to have to do. The current owners have been asking me what my career goals are. I've been deflecting. It's a stable, 5th generation firm in a growing niche.
But yeah, I'm both stressed and bored, and feeling very un-proud of my with lately, due to the fact that I'm not given enough time for proper design and review. The owners are very money-focused and asking for more time on projects will get me laughed out of the room. It's just not that type of firm. I don't like feeling jaded, but I understand that they have a business to run, and I respect that.
Josh Mings
Sep 4, 16 8:38 am
You've already answered your own question. Time to jump ship.
kjdt
Sep 4, 16 10:33 am
Make sure that you take the time to get a good sense of the 2nd firm's culture before you jump too suddenly. Don't imagine that those people you know will manage the same way in their own firm as they did as project managers in the older firm. I've been in the same situation - leaving the older, longer-established "parent" firm to join one of its competitors that spun off from it. In fact for all we know it could be the same two firms - though I doubt it - I think this is a pretty common situation.
The spin-offs always want to view themselves as younger, more energetic, and more design-focused. But often they've learned all their business sense and management skills from the older firm. Thus a common problem is that the spin offs don't know how to negotiate bigger fees or better time frames for deliverables any better than the original firm did - and yet they want to do better design. In fact, the types of clients who hire the younger firms, even though they're usually choosing them at least in part because of their design leanings, sometimes expect that younger will also mean faster and cheaper - so now you've got a situation where everybody wants better design with worse resources. What all of that can result in is a firm with a culture of even more pressure, and more expectations for long hours and sacrifice.
Your prospective firm may not be this way. But make sure to talk with some people who have worked there - preferably at least one who has decided to leave - and try to get the real story on how it is to work there. Particularly if they're in the first 5 years or so of existence, they're probably still in the prove-ourselves-and-get-our-name-out-there phase - and that can be a very stressful time. The owners have a reason to sacrifice everything to achieve that - but you as an employee with no ownership stake may get dragged along and run ragged for not as much potential gain.
tduds
Sep 4, 16 10:49 am
Why would you want ownership of something you aren't proud of?
I'd take the offer, but I thrive on chaos.
geezertect
Sep 4, 16 10:56 am
Don't forget to consider the financial stability of current and potential new employer. This economic "recovery" is getting long in the tooth and a recession could be around the corner. In that event, boring but stable beats thoughtful and respected but unstable. Nothing is more uninspiring than standing in an unemployment line.
Also, what do you mean by "5th generation" firm? If it's a family run practice, your chances of ownership are approximately zero.
midlander
Sep 4, 16 11:07 am
If what you're really looking for is a share of ownership in a company you don't like making good money on products you don't respect you could always buy stock in altria or something. But it seems a waste to go to the trouble of being an architect only to pursue an uninspiring job in a firm you don't like, and one which you say is hard work. Partnership is no guarantee of (minor) wealth or even job security.
You don't give any detail on the most interesting detail here: why the founders of firm B left firm A, and why the owners of firm A resent that. I think an explanation of that would do a lot to suggest how your career at firm A might play out if nothing changes.
Beyond that though, your own description suggests nothing to be gained by staying where you're at. Maybe the best move isn't to take this job, but you should certainly talk it over with your former manager to find out what motivated them to go.
bowling_ball
Sep 4, 16 11:47 am
I can give some more insight.
Former managers A and B were recruited by a firm (which has been around for 25 years, not a new venture) to become partners in a succession plan. This was a couple years ago.
One manager has been with my firm for 7 years, the other for 2ish. They left for a bunch of reasons - mostly for the opportunity to own an established, respected firm for "free."
Despite what I've said, my current firm has given me a lot of support over the years, and I appreciate that. I'm a loyal person.
The culture of the new form is design-heavy but laid back. No bullshit dress codes, beers on Friday afternoons... I would fit in from day one. But as was mentioned above, my former managers are now owners. I've already set up a lunch date with one of their employees (and my long time friend) to get a better sense of what to expect.
eeayeeayo
Sep 4, 16 8:17 pm
Maybe you should try to line up a few more interviews with other firms. It sound like time to leave - but the 2nd firm may not be the greatest fit either.
curtkram
Sep 4, 16 8:37 pm
seems to me you like where you're at. it's a compliment that other people want you, and that always feels good, but if you want to ride out your current situation, that's fine too.
sameolddoctor
Sep 4, 16 10:04 pm
As someone has said before, Id be extremely leery of the opportunity to buy ownership into your firm. I have been promised this before, after about 8 years of working at a firm, but one recession / downturn and the deal is over! I'd keep that aspect to the side and think of other factors.
It also depends on your age, and place in life - whether you want to settle professionally or keep learning and kicking design-ass.
bowling_ball
Sep 5, 16 2:52 am
Some excellent advice here, thank you all. I'm continuing to do my homework, to get a better handle on my options. There won't be enough time to hire somebody to go over my firm's financials, but I'm probably going to have to broach the subject very soon.
Follow up question - if you've ever received a job offer while already employed, have you used that as leverage on your job? How did that go? Everything I've read says not to go down that road, but I have a good relationship with my employers and as I said at the top, this was an unsolicited offer. My current manager knows that I've had several phone calls requesting interviews and I imagine that information has trickled upstairs to the owners...
3tk
Sep 6, 16 7:40 pm
Definitely do all the homework you can at any opportunity: firm culture, pay/benefits, opportunities to advance, work outlook (long and short term), turnover, etc.
Be careful about leveraging - I'd be sure to have several ways out before approaching the current employers. In my experience (admittedly all with very nice, professional employers - all of whom have remained friends and have offered to take me back if the time is right), it's best to be honest with the current employers - discuss the reasons why you want to leave (mostly on advancement issues, financials get tricky), and allow them the opportunity to express if they can match or not. Also assure them of smooth hand-offs of ongoing work or that you will stick around until the work is at a point of closure. Be courteous, professional and to-some-extent generous. They quite often do get the sense that you're looking, so it may not be a complete surprise, but the more opportunities you give for them to retain you, the less they'll feel betrayed.
If ownership is seriously something that needs to be on the table (at any firm), you're going to need to be frank about needing to see some of the details of the business and set a timeline together as to when you'll be hiring an attorney and accountant to review everything - good faith isn't enough and anyone with a business knows this.
geezertect
Sep 7, 16 6:52 pm
^ Well said!
bowling_ball
Sep 8, 16 12:50 am
We recently (3 weeks ago?) had our annual employee reviews and it went well for me. Good pay raise, partly due to my recent licensure (which they paid for). Nothing but praise and questions about what my plans are now that I'm licensed.
This career is a roller coaster. One good week, followed by a bad week. Rinse and repeat. When I say it out loud, I have no substantial complaints about my current job, except for the low quality that often comes with working for developers. And this is why I'm so conflicted. I've doubled my salary in the past 3 years at this firm, it's not as if I'm not supported. If I take the job offer, it's going to be temporary as I have no route to ownership....
Gaaaaaah.
Wood Guy
Sep 8, 16 8:39 am
The grass is always greener, as they say. What could you do to be happier in your current situation?
won and done williams
Sep 8, 16 12:21 pm
Put the whole route to ownership thing aside. If you want to own a firm, start your own. Unless you have actually started your own business, you will never have an understanding of what ownership actually means. I feel like you are looking for some mythical perks of ownership that may or may not actually exist.
You want to know what ownership really means? It means making really tough decisions about other people's lives; it means not taking a paycheck for three months; it means massive liability; it means first and foremost running a business, someone else actually gets to do architecture.
If I were you, I would look for the best situation for you as an employee; not a future owner. (Quite frankly your posts read like an employee's, not an owner's.) What place would make you excited to wake up and go to work in the morning? Who would you most want to have a beer with? Who provides the best opportunity to grow as an architect? And then secondarily, who is most likely to be around 5 years from now? Who is most likely to survive the next recession?
Bloopox
Sep 8, 16 12:45 pm
If you really have true interest in ownership in your current firm, now is the time to have a discussion to further the plan for that. They just asked you about your future plans now that you're licensed - so treat this as a followup to that. Be direct about wanting to followup on their past mentions of you stepping up to an ownership role. If they hem and haw then you know the answer right there: it's not going to happen, at least not any time soon, so move on. If they're excited about your interest then ask them if there's been a recent firm valuation done, and can you see it? What are their thoughts about your buy-in? Time line? Percentage? Can an agreement be drafted up?
If you don't really want to stay there, then stop agonizing and move on to the next thing. Stay a few years, soak up whatever is useful there, and spin off your own firm.
s=r*(theta)
Sep 8, 16 1:28 pm
^ Agreed
I somewhat have a similar situation, a previous employer has been asking me to come back already 3 diff. times. It sounds nice what he "tells me they will offer" *wink wink* and I like the work they do, the more relaxed office environment, more people my age and culture but here is the reason I just dont dig it: In my mind:
its like dating; you have an ex and if they just did or stop doing that one thing or maybe two things you couldnt live without them, but you run into them on the street or at the mall and now you see they have done or stop doing the things since you broke up (whether amicable or not) but their with someone else and you are propositioning them to dump the new person and get back with you. How ethical is that??? im not Jesus but im not Satan itha
Wilma Buttfit
Sep 8, 16 1:31 pm
Start your own firm and be a consultant for both firms.
zonker
Sep 8, 16 5:44 pm
bowling_ball
I would just stay put - things could go south and they could fire you
bowling_ball
Sep 9, 16 12:20 am
And I could get hit by lightning while walking the dog. What's your point?
This isn't the only direct, unsolicited job offer I've had this summer, it's just the only one I've taken seriously. I've worked my ass off to make a good reputation for myself and it's worked. Anything could happen but I'm not too worried about that, at this point anyway.
will galloway
Sep 13, 16 11:58 am
what won and done says is important to keep in mind. Running a firm is not easy. Getting work, losing work and managing clients and staff is interesting but also a kind of hell if it isnt what you want to do. If you want to do design and your current firm is not ever going to do that, well imagine what it will be like to be responsible for actually going out and getting that work as well. Its a slog on the best of days.
I'm not the person to ask though. I left town after graduation even though I had job offers because it seemed like nothing good would ever be built there (was completely wrong on that point by the way). London and Tokyo seemed more interesting. It has been a lot of fun but at the same time not remotely close to easy. The less traveled path that Mr Frost made famous is not usually financially rewarding unless you are lucky.
The only real advice I would offer is that it is better to take this kind of decision when you are younger, because it gets a lot harder to change gear when you are older and there are kids and mortgages and people dependent on you not fucking up.
sorry about the wall of text.
I've been with my current firm for 3.5 years. Recently licensed. Along with a decent salary, comes a LOT of hard work as a project manager on several projects.
Current firm offers many perks and nobody ever stares over my shoulder. It's expected that one day I'll take over the firm as an owner (this comes directly from the owners, whom I feel are at least half -serious). Lastly, my projects are developer-driven and extremely uninspiring, and this isn't likely to change. My value is a result of my niche experience.
I was called by a former manager yesterday to meet for a drink. I expected a job offer and that's what I got. "What will it take for you to come work for me? I need you.". I told him I'd think it over. I know the owners all personally, as well as half the staff. Their work is thoughtful and respected.
So....I can stay at the current, comfortable firm where the work is hard and projects are boring, with the potential future option of buying into ownership as an insider. Or I can jump ship to a firm whose work I respect, for owners and managers I already know, for better or worse. No opportunity for ownership. I would be black-balled from my current firm forever, because the new bosses are former employees of my current firm, and that's a sore spot.
Again, sorry for the wall of text. Maybe I just needed to get this off my chest. I have an important choice to make, and not much time to make it.
Thoughts? Opinions? Experiences?
The only advice I can add from experience is not to count on "expectations" that you'll one day be an owner - unless you sit down with the current owners and make a concrete plan for that, and get it in writing - and even then don't count on it. I got that "expectation" directly from the owners of THREE different firms, before I finally started my own firm, because none of the three panned out. It's probably not that they're telling you that just to keep you there and string you along - it's just that things don't always work out with those promises. People drag their feet because they don't really feel ready to relinquish a part of their firm yet, or the firm suffers or downsizes or tanks altogether during an economic downswing, or the original partners aren't all as solidly on the same page about an attrition plan as they or you think they are...
That said, you haven't given any compelling reasons to jump ship, except that you're bored. So I guess you need to assess just how bored you are, and if it's enough to justify a change. Either choice seems reasonable and viable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhlkFEA0azk
Sorry, wrong thread. Start up yourself and make sure you have clients, don't steal them from any former employers or clients, or fellow work mates, past or present.
Thanks 5839.
That's what I'm going to have to do. The current owners have been asking me what my career goals are. I've been deflecting. It's a stable, 5th generation firm in a growing niche.
But yeah, I'm both stressed and bored, and feeling very un-proud of my with lately, due to the fact that I'm not given enough time for proper design and review. The owners are very money-focused and asking for more time on projects will get me laughed out of the room. It's just not that type of firm. I don't like feeling jaded, but I understand that they have a business to run, and I respect that.
You've already answered your own question. Time to jump ship.
Make sure that you take the time to get a good sense of the 2nd firm's culture before you jump too suddenly. Don't imagine that those people you know will manage the same way in their own firm as they did as project managers in the older firm. I've been in the same situation - leaving the older, longer-established "parent" firm to join one of its competitors that spun off from it. In fact for all we know it could be the same two firms - though I doubt it - I think this is a pretty common situation.
The spin-offs always want to view themselves as younger, more energetic, and more design-focused. But often they've learned all their business sense and management skills from the older firm. Thus a common problem is that the spin offs don't know how to negotiate bigger fees or better time frames for deliverables any better than the original firm did - and yet they want to do better design. In fact, the types of clients who hire the younger firms, even though they're usually choosing them at least in part because of their design leanings, sometimes expect that younger will also mean faster and cheaper - so now you've got a situation where everybody wants better design with worse resources. What all of that can result in is a firm with a culture of even more pressure, and more expectations for long hours and sacrifice.
Your prospective firm may not be this way. But make sure to talk with some people who have worked there - preferably at least one who has decided to leave - and try to get the real story on how it is to work there. Particularly if they're in the first 5 years or so of existence, they're probably still in the prove-ourselves-and-get-our-name-out-there phase - and that can be a very stressful time. The owners have a reason to sacrifice everything to achieve that - but you as an employee with no ownership stake may get dragged along and run ragged for not as much potential gain.
Why would you want ownership of something you aren't proud of?
I'd take the offer, but I thrive on chaos.
Don't forget to consider the financial stability of current and potential new employer. This economic "recovery" is getting long in the tooth and a recession could be around the corner. In that event, boring but stable beats thoughtful and respected but unstable. Nothing is more uninspiring than standing in an unemployment line.
Also, what do you mean by "5th generation" firm? If it's a family run practice, your chances of ownership are approximately zero.
If what you're really looking for is a share of ownership in a company you don't like making good money on products you don't respect you could always buy stock in altria or something. But it seems a waste to go to the trouble of being an architect only to pursue an uninspiring job in a firm you don't like, and one which you say is hard work. Partnership is no guarantee of (minor) wealth or even job security.
You don't give any detail on the most interesting detail here: why the founders of firm B left firm A, and why the owners of firm A resent that. I think an explanation of that would do a lot to suggest how your career at firm A might play out if nothing changes.
Beyond that though, your own description suggests nothing to be gained by staying where you're at. Maybe the best move isn't to take this job, but you should certainly talk it over with your former manager to find out what motivated them to go.
I can give some more insight.
Former managers A and B were recruited by a firm (which has been around for 25 years, not a new venture) to become partners in a succession plan. This was a couple years ago.
One manager has been with my firm for 7 years, the other for 2ish. They left for a bunch of reasons - mostly for the opportunity to own an established, respected firm for "free."
Despite what I've said, my current firm has given me a lot of support over the years, and I appreciate that. I'm a loyal person.
The culture of the new form is design-heavy but laid back. No bullshit dress codes, beers on Friday afternoons... I would fit in from day one. But as was mentioned above, my former managers are now owners. I've already set up a lunch date with one of their employees (and my long time friend) to get a better sense of what to expect.
Maybe you should try to line up a few more interviews with other firms. It sound like time to leave - but the 2nd firm may not be the greatest fit either.
seems to me you like where you're at. it's a compliment that other people want you, and that always feels good, but if you want to ride out your current situation, that's fine too.
As someone has said before, Id be extremely leery of the opportunity to buy ownership into your firm. I have been promised this before, after about 8 years of working at a firm, but one recession / downturn and the deal is over! I'd keep that aspect to the side and think of other factors.
It also depends on your age, and place in life - whether you want to settle professionally or keep learning and kicking design-ass.
Some excellent advice here, thank you all. I'm continuing to do my homework, to get a better handle on my options. There won't be enough time to hire somebody to go over my firm's financials, but I'm probably going to have to broach the subject very soon.
Follow up question - if you've ever received a job offer while already employed, have you used that as leverage on your job? How did that go? Everything I've read says not to go down that road, but I have a good relationship with my employers and as I said at the top, this was an unsolicited offer. My current manager knows that I've had several phone calls requesting interviews and I imagine that information has trickled upstairs to the owners...
Definitely do all the homework you can at any opportunity: firm culture, pay/benefits, opportunities to advance, work outlook (long and short term), turnover, etc.
Be careful about leveraging - I'd be sure to have several ways out before approaching the current employers. In my experience (admittedly all with very nice, professional employers - all of whom have remained friends and have offered to take me back if the time is right), it's best to be honest with the current employers - discuss the reasons why you want to leave (mostly on advancement issues, financials get tricky), and allow them the opportunity to express if they can match or not. Also assure them of smooth hand-offs of ongoing work or that you will stick around until the work is at a point of closure. Be courteous, professional and to-some-extent generous. They quite often do get the sense that you're looking, so it may not be a complete surprise, but the more opportunities you give for them to retain you, the less they'll feel betrayed.
If ownership is seriously something that needs to be on the table (at any firm), you're going to need to be frank about needing to see some of the details of the business and set a timeline together as to when you'll be hiring an attorney and accountant to review everything - good faith isn't enough and anyone with a business knows this.
^ Well said!
We recently (3 weeks ago?) had our annual employee reviews and it went well for me. Good pay raise, partly due to my recent licensure (which they paid for). Nothing but praise and questions about what my plans are now that I'm licensed.
This career is a roller coaster. One good week, followed by a bad week. Rinse and repeat. When I say it out loud, I have no substantial complaints about my current job, except for the low quality that often comes with working for developers. And this is why I'm so conflicted. I've doubled my salary in the past 3 years at this firm, it's not as if I'm not supported. If I take the job offer, it's going to be temporary as I have no route to ownership....
Gaaaaaah.
The grass is always greener, as they say. What could you do to be happier in your current situation?
Put the whole route to ownership thing aside. If you want to own a firm, start your own. Unless you have actually started your own business, you will never have an understanding of what ownership actually means. I feel like you are looking for some mythical perks of ownership that may or may not actually exist.
You want to know what ownership really means? It means making really tough decisions about other people's lives; it means not taking a paycheck for three months; it means massive liability; it means first and foremost running a business, someone else actually gets to do architecture.
If I were you, I would look for the best situation for you as an employee; not a future owner. (Quite frankly your posts read like an employee's, not an owner's.) What place would make you excited to wake up and go to work in the morning? Who would you most want to have a beer with? Who provides the best opportunity to grow as an architect? And then secondarily, who is most likely to be around 5 years from now? Who is most likely to survive the next recession?
If you really have true interest in ownership in your current firm, now is the time to have a discussion to further the plan for that. They just asked you about your future plans now that you're licensed - so treat this as a followup to that. Be direct about wanting to followup on their past mentions of you stepping up to an ownership role. If they hem and haw then you know the answer right there: it's not going to happen, at least not any time soon, so move on. If they're excited about your interest then ask them if there's been a recent firm valuation done, and can you see it? What are their thoughts about your buy-in? Time line? Percentage? Can an agreement be drafted up?
If you don't really want to stay there, then stop agonizing and move on to the next thing. Stay a few years, soak up whatever is useful there, and spin off your own firm.
^ Agreed
I somewhat have a similar situation, a previous employer has been asking me to come back already 3 diff. times. It sounds nice what he "tells me they will offer" *wink wink* and I like the work they do, the more relaxed office environment, more people my age and culture but here is the reason I just dont dig it: In my mind:
its like dating; you have an ex and if they just did or stop doing that one thing or maybe two things you couldnt live without them, but you run into them on the street or at the mall and now you see they have done or stop doing the things since you broke up (whether amicable or not) but their with someone else and you are propositioning them to dump the new person and get back with you. How ethical is that??? im not Jesus but im not Satan itha
Start your own firm and be a consultant for both firms.
bowling_ball
I would just stay put - things could go south and they could fire you
And I could get hit by lightning while walking the dog. What's your point?
This isn't the only direct, unsolicited job offer I've had this summer, it's just the only one I've taken seriously. I've worked my ass off to make a good reputation for myself and it's worked. Anything could happen but I'm not too worried about that, at this point anyway.
what won and done says is important to keep in mind. Running a firm is not easy. Getting work, losing work and managing clients and staff is interesting but also a kind of hell if it isnt what you want to do. If you want to do design and your current firm is not ever going to do that, well imagine what it will be like to be responsible for actually going out and getting that work as well. Its a slog on the best of days.
I'm not the person to ask though. I left town after graduation even though I had job offers because it seemed like nothing good would ever be built there (was completely wrong on that point by the way). London and Tokyo seemed more interesting. It has been a lot of fun but at the same time not remotely close to easy. The less traveled path that Mr Frost made famous is not usually financially rewarding unless you are lucky.
The only real advice I would offer is that it is better to take this kind of decision when you are younger, because it gets a lot harder to change gear when you are older and there are kids and mortgages and people dependent on you not fucking up.
^ WELL SAID