The City of Joliet’s long battle to seize control of a privately-owned Section 8 housing project is motivated by a racially-charged desire to drive out hundreds of poor black residents it described as “rats and whores from Chicago,” attorneys alleged in federal court Thursday.
What’s expected to be a weeks-long bench trial to determine the fate of Evergreen Terrace — a riverside housing project that is home to more than 300 African-American families near downtown Joliet — began amid heated opening argument exchanges. The City of Joliet insists the project is a urine-stinking, crime-ridden “blight” on the community whose long-term safety and re-development can only be secured if Judge Charles Norgle forces the owners New West and New Bluff to sell it to Joliet under eminent domain.
But the owners, the tenants and the federal government all say that Joliet deliberately overstated the project’s problems so that city officials could snag the keys to potentially lucrative land near Harrah’s casino. Evergreen Terrace has been transformed and crime cut by 75 percent thanks to a recent $5 million federally-funded makeover that the City of Joliet fought to stop, they say, alleging that Joliet’s real problem isn’t with the building, but the people who live there. Around 95 percent of the tenants are black, they say.
A dozen tenants watching proceedings Thursday gasped as Assistant U.S. Attorney Kate Elengold alleged that Joliet councilman Tim Brophy was speaking for the City when he allegedly said that the project’s tenants were “rats from the Robert Taylor homes” who needed to be removed. Elengold, who is representing the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), also said evidence will show that either former Joliet Mayor Arthur Schultz or former city manager John Mezera described the 700 tenants as “prostitutes,” “whores” or criminals who would “go back to Chicago” if they were evicted and given housing vouchers.
The city has said that any displaced residents will be given vouchers to live elsewhere, but tenants and their supporters say there aren’t nearly enough empty homes in Joliet that accept Section 8. The fate of the case may hinge on what evidence Norgle decides he can consider. The city, which presented photos of run-down Evergreen Terrace homes taken when it first filed for eminent domain in 2005, says any repairs or improvements made since are irrelevant.
But HUD wants the results of the $5 million revamp it paid for taken into account. After it showed photos taken this year of the new-look project, Reena Bajowala, an attorney representing the tenants said Evergreen Terrace units weren’t just somewhere to live, but “a home and a community and a sense of security,” for residents.
Comments welcome
Over and OUT
Peter N
Marc Miller
Aug 3, 16 11:02 am
Peter, IMO that's an easy answer but you're assuming that all architects are socially conscious and would tow that line. More likely is that there are an untold number of architects who are -
- ready to do the work because that's business,
- or worse, agree that "those people" should be driven out of town,
- and let's not forget the argument that architecture isn't social, so there's no need for concern.
LITS4FormZ
Aug 3, 16 11:50 am
"I am a whore and I am paid very well for high-rise buildings." - Philip Johnson
Mr_Wiggin
Aug 3, 16 2:05 pm
Ex-2 from Marc is probably a much more widely held sentiment in the architecture profession than we'd like to believe.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 4, 16 8:07 am
damn. i am sure any architect involved here probably feels like they are not part of the racist devlopment but more like mediators between parties and since architecture really can not be political in and of itself it is not really involved with the wrong doings of those with these political agendas. don't kill the messenger! although I would add this is probably also flat out abandonment of another class - the poor and those part of a dwindling welfare state......
could this be an urban planning ethical question, perhaps?........
I will attempt to prove this goes beyond race and perhaps architecture could solve it to a degree......based on TV media coverage a while back on a town in Missouri a thought that now is more developed with regard to the police state issues has occured to me...............
what the report indicated for this town and many similar towns in which the police and the community did not get along at all was that the majority of the citizens were transient. Not land owners and most likely not permanent residents. Many did not vote in local elections as they were essentially transient (5+/- years of residency probably). The permanent residents usually did not reflect the transient residents in culture and race and Obviously class. The permanent residents were the remaining owners who possibly did not even live there but were registered to vote there...............
Someone who rents, as I am sure many can relate to, unless the rent is a steal and a deal of lifetime usually feels like they are throwing their money away, so the hope factor is already diminished. Most these transient poor communites residents come from broken homes, this is major factor in why they are poor in the first place. For instance, after 10 years of renting because you could never get a real job because you dropped out of high school because of broken family incidents you lose your mental stability one night and either start trying to make extra money doing illegal stuff or flat out armed robbery, and mind you, you have a family; you get arrested and your kids then bounce around various aunts and uncles amd foster homes and Society just hopes the cycle is somehow broken...........
to put this in better perspective, and leave race out of it for a moment, you have a group of individuals who do not know stability and see no hope in any system. They are wondering nomads between low income housing, cheap built and cheap kept facilities. The facilities are cheap because as they already know, no one in the system gives a fuck about them, often including their family to begin with. Furthermore, the facilities coral all the same people in the same area. Imagine a room with people who have no hope and are extremely anxious about the system moving them or locking them up for just trying to vent a bit when things get dark, like most their lives...........
so those with stable lives and money enact laws and regulations that put the poor into an unstable bind and then ask policemen to regulate an unintenionally planned pandora box. you can't stack 100's of essentially depressed people into on place, abandon them, and fucking hope for civil stability.........
so what could architects do? Pablo Escobar built soccer fields in the favelas.
curtkram
Aug 4, 16 8:19 am
In Ferguson they dressed the cops in camouflage so they could pretend to be soldiers, then gave them a tank. Fun for everyone.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 4, 16 8:41 am
curt, yes I was referencing Ferguson, and since I went to high school not far away I thought of what I think was section 8 housing that occasionally had the Law check-in for noise distrubances etc......your point actually adds to the description I was trying to develop........basically, we build these communities to dump the poor into, often very much racially lopsided (for obvious historical reasons) and then expect the ruling class to send in the law to keep order......the cops were so afraid they came in like the military!?......."oh wait, section 8 housing, send in the Marines, those poor bastards have automatic weapons because of the drug trade because my grand pappy won't hire any of Them!"........its the equivalent of saying, the prison is getting rowdy, send in the troops. well wtf do you expect, when you confine the poor to remaining poor.......its like these boxes of violence and depression and you send in aggression to tame it? ...of course it smells of piss and there are hookers, what are the options.....imagine GG Allin as a community state of mind.
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 8:57 am
Olaf,
To your point about "here" being a group of open minded individuals who are open to diversity in all it's memes- no. That's just plain incorrect. It's present in (not so) subtle comments and references.
Second point- "often very much racially lopsided (for obvious historical reasons)" but you're trying to keep race out of it in your first position. Which is it (respectfully asked)?
Third point- this isn't a police matter. This is a matter of manipulation and hate. By no means is this the first time a migration has been "encouraged," and it's not going to be the last.
Volunteer
Aug 4, 16 9:12 am
Odd, in Charleston, SC, when something horrible happened, thousands of people held hands across a bridge. But then the people of Charleston didn't have Al Sharpton or David Duke to tell them what to do.
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 9:17 am
When and where in Charleston?
And David Duke?
Volunteer
Aug 4, 16 9:22 am
You are not aware of the Charleston church shootings, after which Al Sharpton rushed to the city to try and advance his agenda only to be told to leave by the black citizens of Charleston?
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 9:40 am
I'm asking you which incident at Mother Bethel. You've defaulted to the latest.
Volunteer
Aug 4, 16 9:46 am
The one where the blacks ran Al Sharpton out of town. The one at the Emanuel African Methodist Church on June 17, 2015.
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 9:56 am
I know what you are talking about, you have missed my point.
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 9:57 am
That said, it's an interesting reference site to use...
Peter Normand
Aug 4, 16 10:03 am
The Galling thing about this situation in Joliet is the community was improving and they were taking care of the problems they faced, but in this instance white people just can't stand to live near poor blacks whom they falsely believe are all criminals, and as with Cabrini Green in Chicago someone has to go because we have to have that land for development.
Also David Duke is like Voldermort He who shall not be named, this monster is running for senate in Louisiana. We and the media should just ignore him and not give him free media attention, except for the joyous news of his defeat and or demise.
Over and OUT
Peter N
awaiting_deletion
Aug 4, 16 10:47 am
marc - sorry initial response did not post (damn subway). shorter version here. 'here' not sure, maybe too much sensitivity if subtle is a thing?....2nd - assuming all things equal now the basis for one portion of the poor class was race. but my arguement is if you disregard this fact and take the poor at face value now. the Ferguson class is not say the Atlanta House wives class (its a popular media reference so everyone can understand, don't read into it for subtlies). and the poor and rich may have the same family problems, but the rich have lawyers and buffers to prevent them from falling into the abyss....
.....take FLW broadacre city, would you have the same issues if the poor were distributed that way? would policing not be different? see Ireland and the 33k travelers (i.e. Bradd Pitt in Snatch). the government in the end gave them land to bounce around in. they do not pay taxes and do not use the benefits of taxes.....instead, due to land value, we stack the poor in "boxes" and then ask these areas to be policed by usually non locals. ......... Peters example shows how the area in which the "box" became of value again, enough to cause want of moving everyone......what is "social housing" really? my illustration above in first post was to indicate architecturally how place can obtain enough character to instill fear on both sides of the equation. where the stabilizers see the confined space as a firecracker box and go in with aggression out of fear (which of course leads to hate) and on the otherside, fear of a system that instead of giving chances restricts the possible chances and even diacourages them and quite often directs the poor in the oppsoite direction of being an active citizen......most people see race on many of these issues, and you would suggest its structural, as I would suggest its ultimately Economics now. (which obviously can be a structural factor in racism)....but structural vs hard evidence like Social Housing hold little weight. Peter is giving a perfect example here.
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 11:28 am
I'm not sure the Broadacre reference is appropriate. It was meant to support and advance a increasing middle class. It was never meant to serve as housing for individuals/families that are in economic distress (read: poor).
That said, the point of how the place develops character is important. In one case you have a place that has been destabilized through lack of services and a host of other barriers has become a target for demolition/removal despite any progress.
Volunteer also touched on it when he mentioned Mother Bethel Emmanuel and it's long history of resilience in the face of hatred and attacks, making for a genus loci that is larger than any one individual.
The difference being that one is a place, grounded in history. The other is seen as a territory that is being occupied until "something better" comes along.
Finally- it is me being sensitive, but not overly sensitive.
(And since when was the evolution of race relations in the United States not related to economics?)
awaiting_deletion
Aug 4, 16 5:36 pm
i was insinuating broadacre as a poor option....so can these places genus loci be reversed engineered and graphically represented? lastly? one of your comments reminded me of this partially read article on my part. been sitting on dining table. http://thepenngazette.com/dangerous-ideas/
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 8:27 pm
Sarcasm noted, I need to get better at reading that (but you know that it has been tried, right).
I'm not sure if genus loci is something that is part of representation as much as part of experience. I'm certain it is something that is reversed engineered all the time in these days of psychogeographic driven development.
Dorothy Roberts is slayin it these days.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 4, 16 8:33 pm
but have they represented these social issues on a monopoly board?
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 8:52 pm
Is that really a question? The original monopoly game was intended to reveal the dark side of real estate development, so it's been done.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 4, 16 9:07 pm
the wavelengths are off man.......sorry man been bouncing around between David Graeber (anarchist anthropologist) and Max Weber (protestant ethic) and thought for purposes of clarity, within the Utopia of Rules (games) to elaborate on the structural injustices of the poor in the form of Monopoly (thats an Archinect submittal request). the dark side of social housing or the dark side of just being poor. i will think about it.....(for future reference, as Olaf I like to come out the gate screaming, kicking, provoking, and intimediating, i find you get more out of people that way, and then settle in)......but the wavelengths are off man
Marc Miller
Aug 4, 16 9:27 pm
My turn at sarcasm with that 1st sentence and I forgot about that monopoly request.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 4, 16 9:34 pm
haha...damm internet.....thought experiment.....so Monopoly with structural injustices - poor vs middle vs rich - each class starts off with different level of funding, game over probably fast. for some....then start to add social injustices - like male/female get different 'chance' cards.....
we all get the same dice but the place we land does not treat us all the same...so by reverse engineering i would take various laws and make them part of the game and then for each game piece these laws will affect eacj diffferntly.....thinking out loud
mightyaa
Aug 5, 16 1:49 pm
lol Olaf.... Don't forget to add into your game that if you happen to own the public utilities, you can then "eminent domain" and pay the face valuation of another player's piece of property regardless of improvements because "you need the property" and effectively take it out of the game. To make it "fair", if the player refuses, goto "public hearing" talked about below.
Instead of "go to jail" ... make a "public hearing" where you have to pay for each round you are in there and require rolling doubles twice in a row before you get out. That will destroy the poor players rapidly.
curtkram
Aug 5, 16 4:23 pm
owning the railroads isn't bad either. here's a link to the land the government gave them:
they've got the guns but we've got the numbers. . .
Marc Miller
Aug 5, 16 4:38 pm
In this case (joiliet) it's likely that there was no public hearing, nor will there be. The assumption is that you placate stakeholders by manipulating consensus. The residents of evergreen terrace are not being seen as stakeholders at all.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 5, 16 5:15 pm
no they are not stakeholders at all, just in the way. that 'box' on the River could be worth millions in development...the developer will work something out with the Federal government. worse case in developers eyes - it becomes a park and we build high rises around it...... I imagine it was presented to the architects as follows "hey you know that place, lots of crime, etc...well the city is trying to clean up the town and acquire it to make a park or new development, we would like your firm to do some studies."......good chance the architect does not even follow this up or go down there and knows nothing about the 'place' via media......ok 2nd time this movie is coming up for me, its like some 90's flick, they want to tear some old housing that maybe someone like Eileen Gray designed, and none of the architects have ever been down there because its a bad neighborhood,etc......hold on googling
awaiting_deletion
Aug 5, 16 5:47 pm
ok could not find it (lots of movies though). in this case you get $50 when you pass go. you land on Baltic Ave and you run out of money. you then land on Conneticut Ave and since you are out of money you are told to move back to Baltic Ave with a voucher, do not pass go, do not collect anything, and NO public hearing. now if you run out of money at Baltic you do get a public hearing, on your way to jail.....what it amounts to is the poor can not even play Monopoly (if that was not obvious already).........
awaiting_deletion
Aug 5, 16 5:55 pm
i did read up on this a bit. 1) the city has spent $6 mil in legal fees on acquiring the property. Imagine if that was spent on improving the property?......2) media really skews these places to the point where you think the only inhabitants are criminals when in fact I would wager 95% are decent citizens and the "criminals" are severly disenfranchised youth with mainly stupid misdameanors that if thry were middle class suburbanites would have no effect on their records, leaving like the handful of professional criminals who only show up when they need something.......3) the mayor used to patrol this place and says it is not all that bad. in nyc cops patrol stairwells of social housing. one cop was so scared he accidently shot and killed a man..............4) based on google maps thats a good looking area in my book.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 5, 16 6:07 pm
ok relevant true story time........about 13 years ago my boss and I were standing on a corner in Hunts Point somewhere (south Bronx) waiting for the client to pick us up in his car. just two white guys with rolls of drawings in their hands. an angry man comes up to us and asks us whats in the drawings. at first we ignore him thinking he might be crazy. he starts yelling about the drawings and starts saying things like "how can you tell me how to live. you just draw stuff up and thats how i have to live." (paraphrasing from memory). my boss ( Canadian) responds to the effect "sir, these are drawings for a warehouse, we would not tell you how to live." the man grumbles and starts pacing back and forth in front of us. client pulls up. (same job, a few meetings later where the security vendor showed me his 9mm in his briefcase, I asked what for - you drove here).
curtkram
Aug 5, 16 8:29 pm
in my college days i worked for an asbestos/lead remediation team measuring and drawing as-builts. in order to test for lead they had this gun that shot something radioactive which required the user of said gun to have a certain amount of training and an a badge that would turn black if things were too bad to fix.
so, we would be at various abandoned derelict places that tended to be suitable habitation for homeless groups. and i say groups rather than people, because in some situations that can be an important distinction. anyway, the going gag was that we could point the gun at any potential aggressor and they would get leukemia or at the very least sterilization within a couple years.
just wanted to trade my real-life stories to point out that your new york 9mm crowd are all pussies.
So does that mean people should stop taking poverty wages to work for BIG since they were hired by the Washington Redskins?
awaiting_deletion
Aug 5, 16 10:51 pm
boom.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 5, 16 11:55 pm
is it racism or is it classism....i am not joking nor making this up. when I was a sophomore I did a Black Experience dance. some red head kid requested this song, at the end of this post, nearly had a riot....until then I knew david allen coe via 2 songs. the ride, a solid country song, and 'you never called me by my name '- a solid drunk country song....but this song, holy shit, i nearly had a riot...but then i got to thinkin'....what is he really sayin' and what do you angry fucks not undestand about Trump? your brother is the man that works as hard as you. trump be fuckin ya.....https://youtu.be/OhEHB0a7Uyg
awaiting_deletion
Aug 5, 16 11:56 pm
ended up on wront thread, or did it?
Marc Miller
Aug 6, 16 10:16 am
In an attempt to recover some level of relevance, what does any of that have to deal with a pattern of hate and manipulation in this public process (w/o tropeing).
accesskb
Aug 6, 16 6:50 pm
sure if you can guarantee me other 'non-racist' projects. I'm here to do business and build. Leave politics to city officials to decide.
awaiting_deletion
Aug 6, 16 8:20 pm
marc - i concede it is racist. if you listen to that songn and that story did happen, back in the 90's we had CDs and I was usually the choice for school dances, the white poor (read rural) do have broadacre city and therefore media coverage and policing is different. if one poor family gets out of line - well they were different or you have standoffs....
awaiting_deletion
Aug 6, 16 8:32 pm
next debat i have with ya will ise my real name and not trope and do the usual in character Olaf debate manuevers....olaf is quite invented character........see I have been reading up on Webers Protestant Work Ethic to get a better understanding of what amounts to the ruling classes philosophy (unless mistaken until Kennedy all presidents were essentially white male protestants) the protestants are mainly north german, dutch, and england......this manipulation pattern that is inherited hate (i have other stories that relate to that) if "structure" can be determined I suggest it starts with Webers look at the American Protestant sects.....as i have said elsewhere American racism is very different than european.
Should the architecture profession boycott this obviously racist and corrupt redevelopment endeavor?
Is it worth the potential fees and revenues to get involved in such a dubious project?
Is this unethical enough to take this work that the state licencing board should revoke your licence to practice architecture?
http://www.theherald-news.com/2015/08/27/evergreen-terrace-is-paid-for-but-joliet-still-waiting-to-take-over/auc9289/
https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/joliet-seeks-to-seize-control-of-lowincome-housing-after-11year-legal-battle/067c0bb1-7382-494d-9aad-6274b7327000
Below taken from:
http://www.lipstickalley.com/showthread.php/436132-Joliet-tenants-allegedly-called-%91rats-and-whores-from-Chicago%92
The City of Joliet’s long battle to seize control of a privately-owned Section 8 housing project is motivated by a racially-charged desire to drive out hundreds of poor black residents it described as “rats and whores from Chicago,” attorneys alleged in federal court Thursday.
What’s expected to be a weeks-long bench trial to determine the fate of Evergreen Terrace — a riverside housing project that is home to more than 300 African-American families near downtown Joliet — began amid heated opening argument exchanges.
The City of Joliet insists the project is a urine-stinking, crime-ridden “blight” on the community whose long-term safety and re-development can only be secured if Judge Charles Norgle forces the owners New West and New Bluff to sell it to Joliet under eminent domain.
But the owners, the tenants and the federal government all say that Joliet deliberately overstated the project’s problems so that city officials could snag the keys to potentially lucrative land near Harrah’s casino.
Evergreen Terrace has been transformed and crime cut by 75 percent thanks to a recent $5 million federally-funded makeover that the City of Joliet fought to stop, they say, alleging that Joliet’s real problem isn’t with the building, but the people who live there. Around 95 percent of the tenants are black, they say.
A dozen tenants watching proceedings Thursday gasped as Assistant U.S. Attorney Kate Elengold alleged that Joliet councilman Tim Brophy was speaking for the City when he allegedly said that the project’s tenants were “rats from the Robert Taylor homes” who needed to be removed.
Elengold, who is representing the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), also said evidence will show that either former Joliet Mayor Arthur Schultz or former city manager John Mezera described the 700 tenants as “prostitutes,” “whores” or criminals who would “go back to Chicago” if they were evicted and given housing vouchers.
The city has said that any displaced residents will be given vouchers to live elsewhere, but tenants and their supporters say there aren’t nearly enough empty homes in Joliet that accept Section 8.
The fate of the case may hinge on what evidence Norgle decides he can consider. The city, which presented photos of run-down Evergreen Terrace homes taken when it first filed for eminent domain in 2005, says any repairs or improvements made since are irrelevant.
But HUD wants the results of the $5 million revamp it paid for taken into account. After it showed photos taken this year of the new-look project, Reena Bajowala, an attorney representing the tenants said Evergreen Terrace units weren’t just somewhere to live, but “a home and a community and a sense of security,” for residents.
Comments welcome
Over and OUT
Peter N
Peter, IMO that's an easy answer but you're assuming that all architects are socially conscious and would tow that line. More likely is that there are an untold number of architects who are -
- ready to do the work because that's business,
- or worse, agree that "those people" should be driven out of town,
- and let's not forget the argument that architecture isn't social, so there's no need for concern.
"I am a whore and I am paid very well for high-rise buildings." - Philip Johnson
Ex-2 from Marc is probably a much more widely held sentiment in the architecture profession than we'd like to believe.
damn. i am sure any architect involved here probably feels like they are not part of the racist devlopment but more like mediators between parties and since architecture really can not be political in and of itself it is not really involved with the wrong doings of those with these political agendas. don't kill the messenger! although I would add this is probably also flat out abandonment of another class - the poor and those part of a dwindling welfare state...... could this be an urban planning ethical question, perhaps?........ I will attempt to prove this goes beyond race and perhaps architecture could solve it to a degree......based on TV media coverage a while back on a town in Missouri a thought that now is more developed with regard to the police state issues has occured to me............... what the report indicated for this town and many similar towns in which the police and the community did not get along at all was that the majority of the citizens were transient. Not land owners and most likely not permanent residents. Many did not vote in local elections as they were essentially transient (5+/- years of residency probably). The permanent residents usually did not reflect the transient residents in culture and race and Obviously class. The permanent residents were the remaining owners who possibly did not even live there but were registered to vote there............... Someone who rents, as I am sure many can relate to, unless the rent is a steal and a deal of lifetime usually feels like they are throwing their money away, so the hope factor is already diminished. Most these transient poor communites residents come from broken homes, this is major factor in why they are poor in the first place. For instance, after 10 years of renting because you could never get a real job because you dropped out of high school because of broken family incidents you lose your mental stability one night and either start trying to make extra money doing illegal stuff or flat out armed robbery, and mind you, you have a family; you get arrested and your kids then bounce around various aunts and uncles amd foster homes and Society just hopes the cycle is somehow broken........... to put this in better perspective, and leave race out of it for a moment, you have a group of individuals who do not know stability and see no hope in any system. They are wondering nomads between low income housing, cheap built and cheap kept facilities. The facilities are cheap because as they already know, no one in the system gives a fuck about them, often including their family to begin with. Furthermore, the facilities coral all the same people in the same area. Imagine a room with people who have no hope and are extremely anxious about the system moving them or locking them up for just trying to vent a bit when things get dark, like most their lives........... so those with stable lives and money enact laws and regulations that put the poor into an unstable bind and then ask policemen to regulate an unintenionally planned pandora box. you can't stack 100's of essentially depressed people into on place, abandon them, and fucking hope for civil stability......... so what could architects do? Pablo Escobar built soccer fields in the favelas.
In Ferguson they dressed the cops in camouflage so they could pretend to be soldiers, then gave them a tank. Fun for everyone.
curt, yes I was referencing Ferguson, and since I went to high school not far away I thought of what I think was section 8 housing that occasionally had the Law check-in for noise distrubances etc......your point actually adds to the description I was trying to develop........basically, we build these communities to dump the poor into, often very much racially lopsided (for obvious historical reasons) and then expect the ruling class to send in the law to keep order......the cops were so afraid they came in like the military!?......."oh wait, section 8 housing, send in the Marines, those poor bastards have automatic weapons because of the drug trade because my grand pappy won't hire any of Them!"........its the equivalent of saying, the prison is getting rowdy, send in the troops. well wtf do you expect, when you confine the poor to remaining poor.......its like these boxes of violence and depression and you send in aggression to tame it? ...of course it smells of piss and there are hookers, what are the options.....imagine GG Allin as a community state of mind.
Olaf,
To your point about "here" being a group of open minded individuals who are open to diversity in all it's memes- no. That's just plain incorrect. It's present in (not so) subtle comments and references.
Second point- "often very much racially lopsided (for obvious historical reasons)" but you're trying to keep race out of it in your first position. Which is it (respectfully asked)?
Third point- this isn't a police matter. This is a matter of manipulation and hate. By no means is this the first time a migration has been "encouraged," and it's not going to be the last.
Odd, in Charleston, SC, when something horrible happened, thousands of people held hands across a bridge. But then the people of Charleston didn't have Al Sharpton or David Duke to tell them what to do.
When and where in Charleston?
And David Duke?
You are not aware of the Charleston church shootings, after which Al Sharpton rushed to the city to try and advance his agenda only to be told to leave by the black citizens of Charleston?
I'm asking you which incident at Mother Bethel. You've defaulted to the latest.
The one where the blacks ran Al Sharpton out of town. The one at the Emanuel African Methodist Church on June 17, 2015.
I know what you are talking about, you have missed my point.
That said, it's an interesting reference site to use...
The Galling thing about this situation in Joliet is the community was improving and they were taking care of the problems they faced, but in this instance white people just can't stand to live near poor blacks whom they falsely believe are all criminals, and as with Cabrini Green in Chicago someone has to go because we have to have that land for development.
Also David Duke is like Voldermort He who shall not be named, this monster is running for senate in Louisiana. We and the media should just ignore him and not give him free media attention, except for the joyous news of his defeat and or demise.
Over and OUT
Peter N
marc - sorry initial response did not post (damn subway). shorter version here. 'here' not sure, maybe too much sensitivity if subtle is a thing?....2nd - assuming all things equal now the basis for one portion of the poor class was race. but my arguement is if you disregard this fact and take the poor at face value now. the Ferguson class is not say the Atlanta House wives class (its a popular media reference so everyone can understand, don't read into it for subtlies). and the poor and rich may have the same family problems, but the rich have lawyers and buffers to prevent them from falling into the abyss.... .....take FLW broadacre city, would you have the same issues if the poor were distributed that way? would policing not be different? see Ireland and the 33k travelers (i.e. Bradd Pitt in Snatch). the government in the end gave them land to bounce around in. they do not pay taxes and do not use the benefits of taxes.....instead, due to land value, we stack the poor in "boxes" and then ask these areas to be policed by usually non locals. ......... Peters example shows how the area in which the "box" became of value again, enough to cause want of moving everyone......what is "social housing" really? my illustration above in first post was to indicate architecturally how place can obtain enough character to instill fear on both sides of the equation. where the stabilizers see the confined space as a firecracker box and go in with aggression out of fear (which of course leads to hate) and on the otherside, fear of a system that instead of giving chances restricts the possible chances and even diacourages them and quite often directs the poor in the oppsoite direction of being an active citizen......most people see race on many of these issues, and you would suggest its structural, as I would suggest its ultimately Economics now. (which obviously can be a structural factor in racism)....but structural vs hard evidence like Social Housing hold little weight. Peter is giving a perfect example here.
I'm not sure the Broadacre reference is appropriate. It was meant to support and advance a increasing middle class. It was never meant to serve as housing for individuals/families that are in economic distress (read: poor).
That said, the point of how the place develops character is important. In one case you have a place that has been destabilized through lack of services and a host of other barriers has become a target for demolition/removal despite any progress.
Volunteer also touched on it when he mentioned Mother Bethel Emmanuel and it's long history of resilience in the face of hatred and attacks, making for a genus loci that is larger than any one individual.
The difference being that one is a place, grounded in history. The other is seen as a territory that is being occupied until "something better" comes along.
Finally- it is me being sensitive, but not overly sensitive.
(And since when was the evolution of race relations in the United States not related to economics?)
i was insinuating broadacre as a poor option....so can these places genus loci be reversed engineered and graphically represented? lastly? one of your comments reminded me of this partially read article on my part. been sitting on dining table. http://thepenngazette.com/dangerous-ideas/
Sarcasm noted, I need to get better at reading that (but you know that it has been tried, right).
I'm not sure if genus loci is something that is part of representation as much as part of experience. I'm certain it is something that is reversed engineered all the time in these days of psychogeographic driven development.
Dorothy Roberts is slayin it these days.
but have they represented these social issues on a monopoly board?
Is that really a question? The original monopoly game was intended to reveal the dark side of real estate development, so it's been done.
the wavelengths are off man.......sorry man been bouncing around between David Graeber (anarchist anthropologist) and Max Weber (protestant ethic) and thought for purposes of clarity, within the Utopia of Rules (games) to elaborate on the structural injustices of the poor in the form of Monopoly (thats an Archinect submittal request). the dark side of social housing or the dark side of just being poor. i will think about it.....(for future reference, as Olaf I like to come out the gate screaming, kicking, provoking, and intimediating, i find you get more out of people that way, and then settle in)......but the wavelengths are off man
My turn at sarcasm with that 1st sentence and I forgot about that monopoly request.
haha...damm internet.....thought experiment.....so Monopoly with structural injustices - poor vs middle vs rich - each class starts off with different level of funding, game over probably fast. for some....then start to add social injustices - like male/female get different 'chance' cards..... we all get the same dice but the place we land does not treat us all the same...so by reverse engineering i would take various laws and make them part of the game and then for each game piece these laws will affect eacj diffferntly.....thinking out loud
lol Olaf.... Don't forget to add into your game that if you happen to own the public utilities, you can then "eminent domain" and pay the face valuation of another player's piece of property regardless of improvements because "you need the property" and effectively take it out of the game. To make it "fair", if the player refuses, goto "public hearing" talked about below.
Instead of "go to jail" ... make a "public hearing" where you have to pay for each round you are in there and require rolling doubles twice in a row before you get out. That will destroy the poor players rapidly.
owning the railroads isn't bad either. here's a link to the land the government gave them:
http://profbutler.watermelon-kid.com/images/maps/HIST1302_Part_1/Govt_RR_land_grants.jpg
they've got the guns but we've got the numbers. . .
In this case (joiliet) it's likely that there was no public hearing, nor will there be. The assumption is that you placate stakeholders by manipulating consensus. The residents of evergreen terrace are not being seen as stakeholders at all.
no they are not stakeholders at all, just in the way. that 'box' on the River could be worth millions in development...the developer will work something out with the Federal government. worse case in developers eyes - it becomes a park and we build high rises around it...... I imagine it was presented to the architects as follows "hey you know that place, lots of crime, etc...well the city is trying to clean up the town and acquire it to make a park or new development, we would like your firm to do some studies."......good chance the architect does not even follow this up or go down there and knows nothing about the 'place' via media......ok 2nd time this movie is coming up for me, its like some 90's flick, they want to tear some old housing that maybe someone like Eileen Gray designed, and none of the architects have ever been down there because its a bad neighborhood,etc......hold on googling
ok could not find it (lots of movies though). in this case you get $50 when you pass go. you land on Baltic Ave and you run out of money. you then land on Conneticut Ave and since you are out of money you are told to move back to Baltic Ave with a voucher, do not pass go, do not collect anything, and NO public hearing. now if you run out of money at Baltic you do get a public hearing, on your way to jail.....what it amounts to is the poor can not even play Monopoly (if that was not obvious already).........
i did read up on this a bit. 1) the city has spent $6 mil in legal fees on acquiring the property. Imagine if that was spent on improving the property?......2) media really skews these places to the point where you think the only inhabitants are criminals when in fact I would wager 95% are decent citizens and the "criminals" are severly disenfranchised youth with mainly stupid misdameanors that if thry were middle class suburbanites would have no effect on their records, leaving like the handful of professional criminals who only show up when they need something.......3) the mayor used to patrol this place and says it is not all that bad. in nyc cops patrol stairwells of social housing. one cop was so scared he accidently shot and killed a man..............4) based on google maps thats a good looking area in my book.
ok relevant true story time........about 13 years ago my boss and I were standing on a corner in Hunts Point somewhere (south Bronx) waiting for the client to pick us up in his car. just two white guys with rolls of drawings in their hands. an angry man comes up to us and asks us whats in the drawings. at first we ignore him thinking he might be crazy. he starts yelling about the drawings and starts saying things like "how can you tell me how to live. you just draw stuff up and thats how i have to live." (paraphrasing from memory). my boss ( Canadian) responds to the effect "sir, these are drawings for a warehouse, we would not tell you how to live." the man grumbles and starts pacing back and forth in front of us. client pulls up. (same job, a few meetings later where the security vendor showed me his 9mm in his briefcase, I asked what for - you drove here).
in my college days i worked for an asbestos/lead remediation team measuring and drawing as-builts. in order to test for lead they had this gun that shot something radioactive which required the user of said gun to have a certain amount of training and an a badge that would turn black if things were too bad to fix.
so, we would be at various abandoned derelict places that tended to be suitable habitation for homeless groups. and i say groups rather than people, because in some situations that can be an important distinction. anyway, the going gag was that we could point the gun at any potential aggressor and they would get leukemia or at the very least sterilization within a couple years.
just wanted to trade my real-life stories to point out that your new york 9mm crowd are all pussies.
curt thats a badass story it needs to be dropped here... http://archinect.com/forum/thread/149960714/a-quinten-tarantino-american-huslte-type-true-architect-action-story-add-to-it
So does that mean people should stop taking poverty wages to work for BIG since they were hired by the Washington Redskins?
boom.
is it racism or is it classism....i am not joking nor making this up. when I was a sophomore I did a Black Experience dance. some red head kid requested this song, at the end of this post, nearly had a riot....until then I knew david allen coe via 2 songs. the ride, a solid country song, and 'you never called me by my name '- a solid drunk country song....but this song, holy shit, i nearly had a riot...but then i got to thinkin'....what is he really sayin' and what do you angry fucks not undestand about Trump? your brother is the man that works as hard as you. trump be fuckin ya.....https://youtu.be/OhEHB0a7Uyg
ended up on wront thread, or did it?
In an attempt to recover some level of relevance, what does any of that have to deal with a pattern of hate and manipulation in this public process (w/o tropeing).
sure if you can guarantee me other 'non-racist' projects. I'm here to do business and build. Leave politics to city officials to decide.
marc - i concede it is racist. if you listen to that songn and that story did happen, back in the 90's we had CDs and I was usually the choice for school dances, the white poor (read rural) do have broadacre city and therefore media coverage and policing is different. if one poor family gets out of line - well they were different or you have standoffs....
next debat i have with ya will ise my real name and not trope and do the usual in character Olaf debate manuevers....olaf is quite invented character........see I have been reading up on Webers Protestant Work Ethic to get a better understanding of what amounts to the ruling classes philosophy (unless mistaken until Kennedy all presidents were essentially white male protestants) the protestants are mainly north german, dutch, and england......this manipulation pattern that is inherited hate (i have other stories that relate to that) if "structure" can be determined I suggest it starts with Webers look at the American Protestant sects.....as i have said elsewhere American racism is very different than european.