Ok so first post so please don't mind my ignorance... especially if your in Harvard. I just hear so much talk about Architecture being a rich mans profession and that it doesn't yield much income. However what about your other degrees? Wouldn't your undergrad help at all? For example, I am majoring in Management/Marketing and hope to one day get into say GSD. If architecture doesn't work out, wouldn't it be very easy to get a marketing job with a marketing degree AND a degree from Harvard (or MIT, Columbia...) It shows creativity, hard work and success. It seems like going to Harvard would also open doors for other grad programs like getting into a great MBA program. It just seems like everyone dismisses their other degrees and a GSD degree would help in getting any creative job- even if its not Architecture.
Non Sequitur
Mar 9, 16 12:31 pm
Most of the folks who complain about post graduation income are the same who thought spending over $200k on an Ivy degree was a smart investment. It takes more than a fancy name on a piece of paper. Diversity of education with spin-off options is worth pursuing, specially since you're unaware of how the architecture profession functions.
Volunteer
Mar 9, 16 6:27 pm
One recent study I saw may be instructive. It compared civil engineers who went in-state to Texas A&M with graduates of the University of Pennsylvania. Over a lifetime on average the Penn graduates on average had a very, very small salary edge. But the kicker was to account for the tuition difference the Penn graduate would have to work for one hundred and fifty years before coming out even with the Texas A&M graduate.
geezertect
Mar 9, 16 6:38 pm
Just be aware that higher education is increasingly being revealed as an overpriced scam, with a few exceptions like medicine. Buyer beware. Above all, don't take on heavy debt, particularly for architecture or any of the "arts".
archanonymous
Mar 9, 16 6:55 pm
I have had several people ask me about becoming an architect recently, whether going back to school or entering a professional program after highschool and if I would do it over again.
I tell them all the same thing - if I was 18 again, I would get my SCUBA certification, get formally licensed as a welder, spend 10-15 years making a quarter million a year doing underwater and offshore welding and I'd be "retired" right now with a couple million dollars to pay for any kind of school or life I wanted.
Starting architecture at 30 isn't really that bad, especially if you are financially set for the remainder of your life.
It isn't just the cost of going to school, it is the opportunity cost of lost time working.
Janosh
Mar 9, 16 7:39 pm
Dude from my shop class in high school became a hyperbaric welder (oil platforms). Made tons of money until he got crushed to death on a job. This does not happen very often to architects.
sameolddoctor
Mar 9, 16 8:27 pm
Scam level 1: Architecture as a profession
Scam level 2: Ivy League for said profession
Scam level 3: Fees
So you will be scammed 3 times if you will do what you want to do.
StarchitectAlpha
Mar 9, 16 9:43 pm
I was just measuring offices for a site survey. It was the sales and marketing department. They were talking, interacting, collaborating, laughing, joking, goofing round with their managers, I have NEVER experienced an office environment like that in architecture ever. From a 500 person firm to a four person firm it's been come in the morning, say hello and shut up mad draft for 9 hours leave after being told you didn't get enough done and you're stupid. So it's not just money, imagine actually having a humane work environment....holy shit the concept!!
Wilma Buttfit
Mar 9, 16 9:53 pm
Actually, marketing firms do designs. I did a bunch of permit sets for a chain store where the design would come to us from the marketing firm. My sister in law is in marketing, several of her colleagues do environmental design too. They hire an architect to do construction documents. They have lots of fun.
midlander
Mar 9, 16 10:11 pm
I've worked closely with several GSD grads - they were very good, likable people. They got paid the same as anyone else in their positions.
However the only person I ever knew who actually got fired for performance was a GSD grad too. He was so useless at basic architectural office work as to be unemployable. I have no idea if he ever found someone willing to pay for his re-training.
C. Watts
Mar 9, 16 11:57 pm
I've had two jobs in the field so far and socially they have been great! I've had (mostly) amazing coworkers. We take some talking breaks during the day, go out to lunch with each other and sometimes hang out on the weekends. We have a once a month office meeting and afterwords we all go out for happy hour. This is a small firm (7 people) and our two principals are very kind and do a great job of teaching younger architects how the profession works. I haven't had anyone from school complain about bad social experiences in the office.
midlander
Mar 10, 16 1:16 am
^atmosphere varies very much from office to office.
I once worked at a mid-size firm with a demanding owner / founder which was much as starchitectAlpha describes - 9 hours solid silent work, with some interruptions when the boss was yelling. Stressful, intense, but a good place to learn real skills.
Now in a big corporate firm which is friendly, relaxed and entirely fun. Pay is better than the other place, though probably similar for a given experience level. But it would be tough to figure everything out if you came in at entry level. And some friends from a more intense firm came with me and hated it - they couldn't tolerate the loose structure of teams here.
Whether you like your job and get paid well depends a lot on where you work, a lot on what you can do, and very little on where you studied.
DeTwan
Mar 10, 16 10:32 am
You will probably never really make good money in architecture unless you go out on your own. Business (in any industry) in america is all about cutting the hanging fat, streamlining, and profitability. I know many alum that I graduated with that have moved into other completely unrelated fields, and some that have gone back to college to get a MBA, etc. Dont expect that because you have some prestigious degree, especially in architecture, that employers are going the give you special treatment. It might actually be a detriment trying to find entry-mid level work in the architecture industry with an Ivy League degree. Employer assume that since you carry that degree, you will expect more salary compared to your counterparts.
If there really is any benefit to an Ivy League degree, I would think it would be perhaps the network of ppl and professors it give you access to. If you dont capitalize on that during your studies, especially in architecture, you will most likely be just another entry level joe schmo, with little intrinsic value and real world knowledge, carrying an expensive degree and probably an inflated ego.
senjohnblutarsky
Mar 10, 16 10:59 am
We're like the opposite of prostitutes. You don't stay a prostitute because you love sex. You stay a prostitute for money.
You don't stay an Architect because you're guaranteed money. You stay an Architect because of a love for what you do.
In both cases, someone higher up the chain is probably making more money off your work.
Fruehling
Mar 10, 16 3:25 pm
/end thread
DeTwan
Mar 10, 16 7:09 pm
Architects are magnanimous in dreams /end fairytale
In reality your just a prostitute like Johnblut said
x-jla
Mar 10, 16 7:26 pm
Independence is Mandatory for success in the design fields. If you work for others you better keep the butt hole lubed up.
Leandro Llorente
Mar 10, 16 8:54 pm
I have yet to meet a graduate from Harvard who struggled in Architecture. They are usually well-off and have capital to start their own office.
I don't know about GSD, but employers do pay a slight premium for graduates from certain schools. If they won't pay slightly more for a GSD grad, someone else will.
Volunteer
Mar 11, 16 7:02 am
"Overall our survey shows that most people (GSAAP graduates) make between 40,000 and 70,000 dollars with the majority making between 50,000 and 60,000 dollars". Excuse me, but a student is supposed to take out a $200,000 loan (to repay $400,000 with interest) to make what a sharp high school graduate can make right out of secondary school?
geezertect
Mar 11, 16 9:53 am
What high school graduate is pulling down 70K right out of the box?
archanonymous
Mar 11, 16 10:06 am
basically any highly-skilled trade. Welder, electrician, millworker, etc...
You aren't graduating into it, but if you are someone who was smart enough to attend architecture school but decided not to, you will advance to that point in a year or two. They'll have you running a crew in 5 years pulling down 6 figures
curtkram
Mar 11, 16 10:21 am
lawn care/landscaping business (would have to own your own)
It seems that the Columbia statistics purposely show you those numbers by "all majors" rather than individually. The RED program makes up 23% vs the Arch program at 20% and AAD at 25%. Thats the schools focus right there. The first stat about salary is 71% of RED make 100k plus where as every other major has a lump percentage of 1.5% making 100k or more. The most used software is Word and Excel which should be another indicator people usually move on to business or RED from the programs. They also use ALL the majors from 2009 - 2013.
I agree with _volunteer_ that with interest your pushing a 400k deficit to make an average salary. I dont know about high school kids that are making anything over 40k but im sure its possible but i kids who have studied business or engineering would not touch anything under 45k starting with their bachelors.
Use a loan calculator and see for your self how long it will take you to pay off your debt, what is the minimum payment (i wouldnt expect anything under $300/mo so take that into consideration when thinking about rent/mortgage insurance car payments health care dental etc... so with your paycheck you will be left with maybe 200, what percentage of your salary will you have to pay and how much of a salary will you need (after tax). Your not going to want to be in your mid 40s when your done paying your loans making what your peers were making when they graduated with their bachelors.
A loan that large can be stressful. you will be less likely to take career risks that could be a great investment, because you will need the stability to make your monthly payments.
Im not saying dont be an architect. Im saying be financially intelligent about what debt you are about to take on. No one is going to give you a hand out because you have a degree.
archiwutm8
Mar 11, 16 10:54 am
Anyone who says underwater welding/diver welding is great money is lying to you, nowadays we have less and less people in it because we have technology which performs it remotely.
Driko
Mar 11, 16 11:00 am
^lol
but welders do make good to great money. I work at a dredging company and the field guys are making avg 115k a yr. (look up any dredging co. on glass door and check out the salaries) BUT they do have a higher risk of death or being injured on the job and if they don't die they are probably in terrible health later in life due to the fumes and work conditions they are in.
I think avg welder salary is low 30's and the probability that you will make over 50-60k is low due to demand.
Ok so first post so please don't mind my ignorance... especially if your in Harvard. I just hear so much talk about Architecture being a rich mans profession and that it doesn't yield much income. However what about your other degrees? Wouldn't your undergrad help at all? For example, I am majoring in Management/Marketing and hope to one day get into say GSD. If architecture doesn't work out, wouldn't it be very easy to get a marketing job with a marketing degree AND a degree from Harvard (or MIT, Columbia...) It shows creativity, hard work and success. It seems like going to Harvard would also open doors for other grad programs like getting into a great MBA program. It just seems like everyone dismisses their other degrees and a GSD degree would help in getting any creative job- even if its not Architecture.
Most of the folks who complain about post graduation income are the same who thought spending over $200k on an Ivy degree was a smart investment. It takes more than a fancy name on a piece of paper. Diversity of education with spin-off options is worth pursuing, specially since you're unaware of how the architecture profession functions.
One recent study I saw may be instructive. It compared civil engineers who went in-state to Texas A&M with graduates of the University of Pennsylvania. Over a lifetime on average the Penn graduates on average had a very, very small salary edge. But the kicker was to account for the tuition difference the Penn graduate would have to work for one hundred and fifty years before coming out even with the Texas A&M graduate.
Just be aware that higher education is increasingly being revealed as an overpriced scam, with a few exceptions like medicine. Buyer beware. Above all, don't take on heavy debt, particularly for architecture or any of the "arts".
I have had several people ask me about becoming an architect recently, whether going back to school or entering a professional program after highschool and if I would do it over again.
I tell them all the same thing - if I was 18 again, I would get my SCUBA certification, get formally licensed as a welder, spend 10-15 years making a quarter million a year doing underwater and offshore welding and I'd be "retired" right now with a couple million dollars to pay for any kind of school or life I wanted.
Starting architecture at 30 isn't really that bad, especially if you are financially set for the remainder of your life.
It isn't just the cost of going to school, it is the opportunity cost of lost time working.
Dude from my shop class in high school became a hyperbaric welder (oil platforms). Made tons of money until he got crushed to death on a job. This does not happen very often to architects.
Scam level 1: Architecture as a profession
Scam level 2: Ivy League for said profession
Scam level 3: Fees
So you will be scammed 3 times if you will do what you want to do.
I was just measuring offices for a site survey. It was the sales and marketing department. They were talking, interacting, collaborating, laughing, joking, goofing round with their managers, I have NEVER experienced an office environment like that in architecture ever. From a 500 person firm to a four person firm it's been come in the morning, say hello and shut up mad draft for 9 hours leave after being told you didn't get enough done and you're stupid. So it's not just money, imagine actually having a humane work environment....holy shit the concept!!
Actually, marketing firms do designs. I did a bunch of permit sets for a chain store where the design would come to us from the marketing firm. My sister in law is in marketing, several of her colleagues do environmental design too. They hire an architect to do construction documents. They have lots of fun.
I've worked closely with several GSD grads - they were very good, likable people. They got paid the same as anyone else in their positions.
However the only person I ever knew who actually got fired for performance was a GSD grad too. He was so useless at basic architectural office work as to be unemployable. I have no idea if he ever found someone willing to pay for his re-training.
I've had two jobs in the field so far and socially they have been great! I've had (mostly) amazing coworkers. We take some talking breaks during the day, go out to lunch with each other and sometimes hang out on the weekends. We have a once a month office meeting and afterwords we all go out for happy hour. This is a small firm (7 people) and our two principals are very kind and do a great job of teaching younger architects how the profession works. I haven't had anyone from school complain about bad social experiences in the office.
^atmosphere varies very much from office to office.
I once worked at a mid-size firm with a demanding owner / founder which was much as starchitectAlpha describes - 9 hours solid silent work, with some interruptions when the boss was yelling. Stressful, intense, but a good place to learn real skills.
Now in a big corporate firm which is friendly, relaxed and entirely fun. Pay is better than the other place, though probably similar for a given experience level. But it would be tough to figure everything out if you came in at entry level. And some friends from a more intense firm came with me and hated it - they couldn't tolerate the loose structure of teams here.
Whether you like your job and get paid well depends a lot on where you work, a lot on what you can do, and very little on where you studied.
You will probably never really make good money in architecture unless you go out on your own. Business (in any industry) in america is all about cutting the hanging fat, streamlining, and profitability. I know many alum that I graduated with that have moved into other completely unrelated fields, and some that have gone back to college to get a MBA, etc. Dont expect that because you have some prestigious degree, especially in architecture, that employers are going the give you special treatment. It might actually be a detriment trying to find entry-mid level work in the architecture industry with an Ivy League degree. Employer assume that since you carry that degree, you will expect more salary compared to your counterparts.
If there really is any benefit to an Ivy League degree, I would think it would be perhaps the network of ppl and professors it give you access to. If you dont capitalize on that during your studies, especially in architecture, you will most likely be just another entry level joe schmo, with little intrinsic value and real world knowledge, carrying an expensive degree and probably an inflated ego.
We're like the opposite of prostitutes. You don't stay a prostitute because you love sex. You stay a prostitute for money.
You don't stay an Architect because you're guaranteed money. You stay an Architect because of a love for what you do.
In both cases, someone higher up the chain is probably making more money off your work.
/end thread
Architects are magnanimous in dreams /end fairytale
In reality your just a prostitute like Johnblut said
Independence is Mandatory for success in the design fields. If you work for others you better keep the butt hole lubed up.
I have yet to meet a graduate from Harvard who struggled in Architecture. They are usually well-off and have capital to start their own office.
As far as GSAPP: http://www.arch.columbia.edu/resources/gsapp-resources/career-services/alumni-survey-data
I don't know about GSD, but employers do pay a slight premium for graduates from certain schools. If they won't pay slightly more for a GSD grad, someone else will.
"Overall our survey shows that most people (GSAAP graduates) make between 40,000 and 70,000 dollars with the majority making between 50,000 and 60,000 dollars". Excuse me, but a student is supposed to take out a $200,000 loan (to repay $400,000 with interest) to make what a sharp high school graduate can make right out of secondary school?
What high school graduate is pulling down 70K right out of the box?
basically any highly-skilled trade. Welder, electrician, millworker, etc...
You aren't graduating into it, but if you are someone who was smart enough to attend architecture school but decided not to, you will advance to that point in a year or two. They'll have you running a crew in 5 years pulling down 6 figures
lawn care/landscaping business (would have to own your own)
air traffic controller
truck driver
underwater welding
It seems that the Columbia statistics purposely show you those numbers by "all majors" rather than individually. The RED program makes up 23% vs the Arch program at 20% and AAD at 25%. Thats the schools focus right there. The first stat about salary is 71% of RED make 100k plus where as every other major has a lump percentage of 1.5% making 100k or more. The most used software is Word and Excel which should be another indicator people usually move on to business or RED from the programs. They also use ALL the majors from 2009 - 2013.
I agree with _volunteer_ that with interest your pushing a 400k deficit to make an average salary. I dont know about high school kids that are making anything over 40k but im sure its possible but i kids who have studied business or engineering would not touch anything under 45k starting with their bachelors.
Use a loan calculator and see for your self how long it will take you to pay off your debt, what is the minimum payment (i wouldnt expect anything under $300/mo so take that into consideration when thinking about rent/mortgage insurance car payments health care dental etc... so with your paycheck you will be left with maybe 200, what percentage of your salary will you have to pay and how much of a salary will you need (after tax). Your not going to want to be in your mid 40s when your done paying your loans making what your peers were making when they graduated with their bachelors.
A loan that large can be stressful. you will be less likely to take career risks that could be a great investment, because you will need the stability to make your monthly payments.
Im not saying dont be an architect. Im saying be financially intelligent about what debt you are about to take on. No one is going to give you a hand out because you have a degree.
Anyone who says underwater welding/diver welding is great money is lying to you, nowadays we have less and less people in it because we have technology which performs it remotely.
^lol
but welders do make good to great money. I work at a dredging company and the field guys are making avg 115k a yr. (look up any dredging co. on glass door and check out the salaries) BUT they do have a higher risk of death or being injured on the job and if they don't die they are probably in terrible health later in life due to the fumes and work conditions they are in.
I think avg welder salary is low 30's and the probability that you will make over 50-60k is low due to demand.