Is the average architect earning less than that? Apparently I'm out-earning all MTA position averages. Good to know. But is that unusual? I'm under the impression that I'm relatively typical of mid-career architects.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 23, 16 1:15 pm
starting a firm
MTA Architects (better pay, less work, double dipping in retirement plans is cool)
BulgarBlogger
Jan 23, 16 5:19 pm
They point is... Why does an MTA conductor make the same as a mid-career architect????
file
Jan 23, 16 5:59 pm
^ pretty simple, actually ... there probably are more people who aspire to become an architect than there are people who aspire to become an MTA conductor. Simple equation of 'supply and demand'.
Besides, most MTA employees probably are unionized. When they go on strike the city transportation system shuts down. If architects were to strike, who would notice ... or care ?
geezertect
Jan 23, 16 6:25 pm
^ Sad but true. Governmental and quasi-governmental employees at the lower end generally tend to make more than their skill level would justify in the private sector, both because of unionization and because the union is negotiating with politicians and bureaucrats who have no incentive to save taxpayers' money. Lots of politics. I would guess those kind of jobs aren't easy to get because of nepotism.
kjdt
Jan 23, 16 6:57 pm
Really there are more people wanting to become MTA conductors than there are people aspiring to be architects - or at least more people as a percentage of available jobs. MTA conductors are pre-screened by a standardized test. There's a pre-prescreening to be allowed to sit for that test. About 35,000 are tested in a five year period, then the approximately 2500 highest scorers are selected for further screening followed by another winnowing, then 5 months of low-paid training for those still in the running, then several more tests, and then the few hundred who are still standing are allowed on the waiting list for an opening. Sometimes it takes years for an opening to arise. Once an opening becomes available the starting salary is about $25/hour.
situationist
Jan 23, 16 7:29 pm
Is the average architect earning less than that? Apparently I'm out-earning all MTA position averages. Good to know. But is that unusual? I'm under the impression that I'm relatively typical of mid-career architects.
what pops up for me are conductors and bus operators earning in the 36-50k range... which is about what first-year interns make in my market. If you're making that salary as a mid-career architect I feel bad for you.
SpontaneousCombustion
Jan 23, 16 9:44 pm
Exactly.
DeTwan
Jan 24, 16 10:09 am
So you're making less than $25.50 hourly in NYC...yikes. I would say that $25-26 hourly in the Midwest is about average for your mid-career 'project manager' or equivalent with 12-15 years experience.
As the pool of want-to-be architects grows ever greater, the realities of how much the industry sux grows as well.
Perhaps the next recession will cull the naïve wave of wonderlusting want to be architects back to a manageable tide.
SpontaneousCombustion
Jan 24, 16 10:31 am
BulgarBlogger: which MTA position were you comparing yourself to, where are you located, and how much experience do you have? I would agree that if you're making less than $25 in the NYC area with any more than a year or 2 of experience you should probably be looking elsewhere (maybe to the MTA?)
awaiting_deletion
Jan 24, 16 11:47 am
my first apt. sublease was to a subway conductor of 20 years. he was renting in Brooklyn but in the Islands (Carribean) he owned 3 houses. his salary was triple mine. i was fresh out of school he had been at it for 20 years.
x-jla
Jan 24, 16 12:09 pm
Bus drivers and conductors also have people's lives in their hands. The hsw argument is actually far more relevant in their case.
"BART's top-paid train operator grossed $155,308, compared with the $109,450 that the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority paid its top light-rail driver. BART's best-paid janitor made $82,752"
Still, I'd rather be driving Revit with my P.A. on my neck all day, than put up with what they have to put up with all day - sheesh - people getting shot in the train - fake cameras, homeless people sleeping behind the cab with shopping garbage bags of stuff stinking up the entire carriage to smell like a loo -
b3tadine[sutures]
Jan 24, 16 7:06 pm
Go be an MTA conductor then. I'm sure the grass is greener there anyway.
archiwutm8
Jan 25, 16 4:23 am
Have you actually tried to work a public transport driver? It's extremely hard. I have several family members and acquaintances working in public transport, its extremely tiring, stressing and clouds your mind driving 8-12hours a day. In London tube drivers are paid extremely well compared to the national average wage because what they go through everyday. NYC subway is horrible compared to it and I'd expect to earn a decent wage for the work they do.
Before you go shitting on other peoples jobs and crying about why "architects are paid so little" understand that architects aren't the end of the world and in no way is anyone obliged to pay you any crazy salary you have in mind. "Architecture" is a passion career that people go into because they want to actually do it compared to a lot of other highly paid careers/jobs out there, the demand for architects is low compared to the amount of people coming out of archi school.
nimi143
Jan 25, 16 5:28 am
nice post
x-jla
Jan 25, 16 10:09 am
Exactly, why should architects make more than conductors, and why are we even comparing such unrelated fields?
x-jla
Jan 25, 16 10:13 am
Most of my friends who didn't go to college Make more money than architects...mainly because they began their careers in one thing or another several years earlier. I have a friend who works in a union in nyc who was making 100k before I even graduated.
archiwutm8
Jan 25, 16 10:30 am
It's a stupid comparison, some jobs are more needed than others its like complaining about why doctors are paid more than architects. One is actually useful and need whilst the other you can actually forego. In the UK the average salary of a Bin man, who wakes up in the morning to collect people's garbage is paid similarly to an architect with 5-10 years experience. Why? because we actually need people to pick up garbage and its a undesirable duty to fulfil.
gwharton
Jan 25, 16 11:39 am
Being in a union and on the public teat seems to have some advantages.
tduds
Jan 25, 16 12:27 pm
“The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.”
geezertect
Jan 25, 16 12:43 pm
^ Nice sentiment, but not human nature.
tduds
Jan 25, 16 1:11 pm
Lots of things commonplace in modern society aren't human nature. That's why we have modern society.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 25, 16 2:01 pm
+++ tduds
DeTwan
Jan 25, 16 2:29 pm
lol. what are the pluses for? Sounding angry? I should be getting more of those. Anywho...I think the more valuable thing to take away from this, is....wait for it....architecture is a ridiculous industry. Dare I say stupid.
Like mentioned above, the sooner you start your career, the faster your income rises. I have to laugh at all the silly kids that want to be some magnanimous architect. Spending 5-7 years in high education to only to realize that they hiked the debt mountain, and wasted a hell of a lot of valuable time in a BS academia setting, that translates into little to no real world knowledge. Once you realize that, you feel like a fool. I did. The people that cant get one over themselves feel fooled, usually the teachers pets that got A's in school, and just cant believe that they would do so good in school, yet struggle so bad in the real world.
I cant get over how slave like the culture is in architecture.
My advise to the OP, bail on architecture. It only brings misery to the common man. Do what you love, and others will appreciate it. The worst thing to do, is keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
shellarchitect
Jan 25, 16 2:40 pm
"MTA conductor" never got anyone laid at a bar
Zaina
Jan 25, 16 3:03 pm
think of how little our actual contribution to the world/day or / hr as an architects compared to a conductor or a driver? think of how much time we need thinking, observing and exploring our ideas? how far our work really touch people's life? do we actually produce every cent that is coming back to us as "designers"? or does the world really need designers? what we once wake up, and found the world had came to its end? ...? ...?
still, our end result at the end of the month/ weeks is where all of the value of our efforts go... so... if you were thinking of success in term of money, respect, appreciation, or fame............ be a star architect, or don't be an architect at all! and YES a bus driver is more important, valuable, appreciated and wealthy than you are!! :p :P
StarchitectAlpha
Jan 25, 16 9:00 pm
Architecture pays very well if you started right after high school by taking a CAD class and working your way up without school. If you went to college it's a bit depressing that it didn't get you any further ahead in your field. I mean it's just fact, you spent 5 years learning about art, zero about CD's, construction, code and costs. I mean for art majors our intern pay is quite lavish, 40k/yr I don't see many painting majors getting that.
tduds
Jan 26, 16 2:42 pm
^^ You need both. If you skip design school and spend your time learning to make details and CDs, you're not an architect. Your'e a drafter.
JeromeS
Jan 26, 16 2:48 pm
"MTA conductor" never got anyone laid at a bar
But in the cockpit of the train at 50 mph, I'll bet it has!!!
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/MTA-Metropolitan-Transportation-Authority-Salaries-E4499.htm
price of deafness,
Is the average architect earning less than that? Apparently I'm out-earning all MTA position averages. Good to know. But is that unusual? I'm under the impression that I'm relatively typical of mid-career architects.
starting a firm
MTA Architects (better pay, less work, double dipping in retirement plans is cool)
They point is... Why does an MTA conductor make the same as a mid-career architect????
^ pretty simple, actually ... there probably are more people who aspire to become an architect than there are people who aspire to become an MTA conductor. Simple equation of 'supply and demand'.
Besides, most MTA employees probably are unionized. When they go on strike the city transportation system shuts down. If architects were to strike, who would notice ... or care ?
^ Sad but true. Governmental and quasi-governmental employees at the lower end generally tend to make more than their skill level would justify in the private sector, both because of unionization and because the union is negotiating with politicians and bureaucrats who have no incentive to save taxpayers' money. Lots of politics. I would guess those kind of jobs aren't easy to get because of nepotism.
Really there are more people wanting to become MTA conductors than there are people aspiring to be architects - or at least more people as a percentage of available jobs. MTA conductors are pre-screened by a standardized test. There's a pre-prescreening to be allowed to sit for that test. About 35,000 are tested in a five year period, then the approximately 2500 highest scorers are selected for further screening followed by another winnowing, then 5 months of low-paid training for those still in the running, then several more tests, and then the few hundred who are still standing are allowed on the waiting list for an opening. Sometimes it takes years for an opening to arise. Once an opening becomes available the starting salary is about $25/hour.
Is the average architect earning less than that? Apparently I'm out-earning all MTA position averages. Good to know. But is that unusual? I'm under the impression that I'm relatively typical of mid-career architects.
what pops up for me are conductors and bus operators earning in the 36-50k range... which is about what first-year interns make in my market. If you're making that salary as a mid-career architect I feel bad for you.
Exactly.
So you're making less than $25.50 hourly in NYC...yikes. I would say that $25-26 hourly in the Midwest is about average for your mid-career 'project manager' or equivalent with 12-15 years experience.
As the pool of want-to-be architects grows ever greater, the realities of how much the industry sux grows as well.
Perhaps the next recession will cull the naïve wave of wonderlusting want to be architects back to a manageable tide.
BulgarBlogger: which MTA position were you comparing yourself to, where are you located, and how much experience do you have? I would agree that if you're making less than $25 in the NYC area with any more than a year or 2 of experience you should probably be looking elsewhere (maybe to the MTA?)
my first apt. sublease was to a subway conductor of 20 years. he was renting in Brooklyn but in the Islands (Carribean) he owned 3 houses. his salary was triple mine. i was fresh out of school he had been at it for 20 years.
Bus drivers and conductors also have people's lives in their hands. The hsw argument is actually far more relevant in their case.
^ case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZj_S_JtoGk
grin .... !
"BART's top-paid train operator grossed $155,308, compared with the $109,450 that the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority paid its top light-rail driver. BART's best-paid janitor made $82,752"
Still, I'd rather be driving Revit with my P.A. on my neck all day, than put up with what they have to put up with all day - sheesh - people getting shot in the train - fake cameras, homeless people sleeping behind the cab with shopping garbage bags of stuff stinking up the entire carriage to smell like a loo -
Go be an MTA conductor then. I'm sure the grass is greener there anyway.
Have you actually tried to work a public transport driver? It's extremely hard. I have several family members and acquaintances working in public transport, its extremely tiring, stressing and clouds your mind driving 8-12hours a day. In London tube drivers are paid extremely well compared to the national average wage because what they go through everyday. NYC subway is horrible compared to it and I'd expect to earn a decent wage for the work they do.
Before you go shitting on other peoples jobs and crying about why "architects are paid so little" understand that architects aren't the end of the world and in no way is anyone obliged to pay you any crazy salary you have in mind. "Architecture" is a passion career that people go into because they want to actually do it compared to a lot of other highly paid careers/jobs out there, the demand for architects is low compared to the amount of people coming out of archi school.
nice post
Exactly, why should architects make more than conductors, and why are we even comparing such unrelated fields?
Most of my friends who didn't go to college Make more money than architects...mainly because they began their careers in one thing or another several years earlier. I have a friend who works in a union in nyc who was making 100k before I even graduated.
It's a stupid comparison, some jobs are more needed than others its like complaining about why doctors are paid more than architects. One is actually useful and need whilst the other you can actually forego. In the UK the average salary of a Bin man, who wakes up in the morning to collect people's garbage is paid similarly to an architect with 5-10 years experience. Why? because we actually need people to pick up garbage and its a undesirable duty to fulfil.
Being in a union and on the public teat seems to have some advantages.
“The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.”
^ Nice sentiment, but not human nature.
Lots of things commonplace in modern society aren't human nature. That's why we have modern society.
+++ tduds
lol. what are the pluses for? Sounding angry? I should be getting more of those. Anywho...I think the more valuable thing to take away from this, is....wait for it....architecture is a ridiculous industry. Dare I say stupid.
Like mentioned above, the sooner you start your career, the faster your income rises. I have to laugh at all the silly kids that want to be some magnanimous architect. Spending 5-7 years in high education to only to realize that they hiked the debt mountain, and wasted a hell of a lot of valuable time in a BS academia setting, that translates into little to no real world knowledge. Once you realize that, you feel like a fool. I did. The people that cant get one over themselves feel fooled, usually the teachers pets that got A's in school, and just cant believe that they would do so good in school, yet struggle so bad in the real world.
I cant get over how slave like the culture is in architecture.
My advise to the OP, bail on architecture. It only brings misery to the common man. Do what you love, and others will appreciate it. The worst thing to do, is keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
"MTA conductor" never got anyone laid at a bar
think of how little our actual contribution to the world/day or / hr as an architects compared to a conductor or a driver? think of how much time we need thinking, observing and exploring our ideas? how far our work really touch people's life? do we actually produce every cent that is coming back to us as "designers"? or does the world really need designers? what we once wake up, and found the world had came to its end? ...? ...?
still, our end result at the end of the month/ weeks is where all of the value of our efforts go... so... if you were thinking of success in term of money, respect, appreciation, or fame............ be a star architect, or don't be an architect at all! and YES a bus driver is more important, valuable, appreciated and wealthy than you are!! :p :P
Architecture pays very well if you started right after high school by taking a CAD class and working your way up without school. If you went to college it's a bit depressing that it didn't get you any further ahead in your field. I mean it's just fact, you spent 5 years learning about art, zero about CD's, construction, code and costs. I mean for art majors our intern pay is quite lavish, 40k/yr I don't see many painting majors getting that.
^^ You need both. If you skip design school and spend your time learning to make details and CDs, you're not an architect. Your'e a drafter.
"MTA conductor" never got anyone laid at a bar
But in the cockpit of the train at 50 mph, I'll bet it has!!!