Hi all, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to read this. It may become long winded so I apologize in advance.
Timeline:
26 Years Old
Finished high school with poor-mediocre grades
Scraped into university (Bachelor of Physical Education and Recreation) immediately after High School and was not interested in it, but was determined to finish my degree
Completed the degree in 4 years with poor-mediocre grades (cumulative GPA 2.3, final 2 years 2.6)
Worked for about 3 years at various unfulfilling jobs
Decided to go back to school for September 2013 intake of the Architectural Technology Program.
Graduated in 2015 with a cumulative GPA of 4.0
Applied at UBC (MArch), UofC (MArch), UofM (Architectural Masters Prep Program, 1 year), UofT (MArch), and Dalhousie (BEDS/MArch), hoping that they could look past my poor, unrelated university grades and look to my relevant, technical experience where I excelled.
Was not accepted to any school.
Attempted to take classes through distance learning online to boost my GPA
Eventually withdrew as they were over my head and If I stuck with them to the end, my GPA would have been negatively affected. The classes were over my head because in order to count towards my GPA, they needed to be 300-500 level classes and I basically went into them with no background despite them having no prerequisites.
After all of that, I'm still interested in becoming an architect, but I am put off by my original experience at university (read, read, read.. test.. vs. technical school where there was a lot of hands on which led to my success as I'm a hands on learner). Though I feel that if I went back to university for another Bachelors degree, I would be ok because it is something that I'm actually interested in pursuing and if I start at the beginning I might be better off.
All that said, I'm looking for some guidance/advice/cautions/encouragement.
Sorry for the hot air. Thanks in advance
accesskb
Sep 23, 15 11:11 am
this thread is cracking me up.. :D So is 'AIBD, Professional Building Designer' the substitute for 'AIA, Architect'?
Sep 23, 15 1:26 pm
Brud-G wrote:
Balkins took some non architecture related classes at UofO. He liked to "hang-out" in the architecture department and creeped out one of the female proffessors. Balkins was asked (restraining order maybe?) not to come back. True story
WRONG!
I did take architecture related courses.Historic preservation is architecture related. So it landscape architecture courses. So is the HOPE Conference charette. So is the Intro to Architecture course and other courses I took.
Sorry but what the fuck are you babbling about in creeping out one of the female professors? I don't believe that was ever the case. The individual that had the UO Police talk to me following the AIAS meeting was the Admissions Advisor. I would prefer to not state the person's name. The lady is not a professor or instructor.
null pointer
Sep 23, 15 2:19 pm
Never have i ever had a restraining order against me.
Did you drink, Balkins?
Sep 23, 15 2:53 pm
I don't have any restraining orders against me.
null pointer
Sep 23, 15 2:57 pm
Sexy use of them verb tenses, dude.
Sep 23, 15 3:20 pm
null pointer,
There was no restraining orders involved. It is not one of those cases.
There isn't a rational cause for one. The calling of the UO Police was kind of excessive on the part of the Admission Advisor's office.
StarchitectAlpha
Sep 23, 15 4:06 pm
OP I'm pretty sure you can get licensed with just an insane amount of real world experience. Someone in my office just started out of high school as a drafter dude who took a CAD class. He was able to get the state to let him take licensing exams, this was in California so pretty strict standards. He also was way more knowledgeable than anyone else his age because he worked in the real world and skipped the useless tasks they give you in school, like making abstract models of "anger" or "blue." Also it seems you have a romantic view of the profession this will also save you the discouragement of spending so much effort to get a degree to become a CAD drafter. Architects simply perform the service of making building specs of other people's ideas. The only time they are "visionaries" are when they are working on a design competition for free to win a project, even then the project has mostly been figured out and the competition comes with all their stipulations. A MArc is nothing more than a masters of art, it's not gonna do much for you.
Sep 23, 15 4:24 pm
StarchitectAlpha,
The subject matter of the OP is Canada licensing so it will be dependent on the specific laws and rules of the province or territory.
As for myself, I am fully aware of the laws/rules you are referring to.
I don't know if that will be helpful for him getting licensed in Canada while an NAAB accredited degree maybe recognized as an approved education. Each province has their own licensing board very much like the states in the U.S. I don't know if licensing by experience in California or even Washington state and some sort of reciprocity into Canada will work.
I'd figure that will help you in rethinking your response to the OP so it can be more helpful to the OP's situation. Your suggestion applies more to me than necessarily the OP.
StarchitectAlpha
Sep 23, 15 4:37 pm
My bad
Sep 23, 15 4:58 pm
I'll have to take responsibility for that. The yammering about me didn't help.
JBeaumont
Sep 26, 15 3:58 pm
Richard there's no calculus on the SAT at all - never has been, and the algebra is entirely 7th-8th-grade basic - nothing advanced. There's no studying required. Even if you're at all shaky on middle school math, you have the vocabulary to do pretty well on the verbal part.
Seems very weird that you regularly, eagerly spend your time researching the architecture licensing laws of other countries, but you didn't do your due diligence to research what's actually on the test that you refuse to take on principle, and let that derail your academic plans and sidetrack your whole career.
Original Poster: try to use your tech school background to get a job in an architecture firm for a year or so, to develop some more portfolio material and to see if you really like working in architecture. Then pursue the M.Arch route again.
It does get into abstract algebra. Sure, it might have been involved in tests but of course when you don't use abstract algebra, those concepts would be a little foggy because one doesn't use them outside of academia. You may use it more often if your major is a Math major to be a Math/Algebra/Calculus Professor. SAT does have questions in the abstract algebra. Maybe, not lamba calculus but abstract algebra. If I had to do lambda calculus and abstract algebra without a computer, I'd probably will kill the proctor.
Try some of those questions that have now on the SAT without a graphic calculator. It would be very tedious and time consuming and you're dealing with a timed exam which doesn't give you much of any time. I don't have a functional graphic calculator. Sure, some of those questions can be done well in the head. Some need to use paper but I don't know if the proctors will provide any scratch paper as they expect everyone to be using these graphic calculators which they probably won't provide at such an exam.
At this stage, I would probably be taking the GRE.
JBeaumont
Sep 26, 15 6:08 pm
On the SAT the test booklet has the scratch paper in it - that way everybody taking it everywhere gets the same amount. All SAT questions can be done without a calculator, but you're supposed to bring a calculator - the requirements for the acceptable calculators are provided in the test application materials. Certainly the investment in an acceptable calculator is far less than the expense of 3 years of college in a major other than what you wanted to study!
SAT math really isn't that complicated - it's primarily a speed test of basic math, not an assessment test of advanced math. The subject matter of the GRE math tested is exactly the same as the SAT math - though the question types differ in some respects. On the GRE the scratch paper is provided in sheets or booklets by the test center (similar to the way it is provided for the ARE.)
There's a disadvantage in taking the GRE instead of the SAT, in the sense that the same percentage of correct questions achieved on the GRE generally results in a much lower percentile ranking than on the SAT (i.e. a % correct that would put you in the 90th percentile on the math sections of the SAT puts you around the 75th percentile on the GRE). That's because the pool of applicants on the GRE tends to have higher aptitude, because it's made exclusively of those who aspire to graduate school.
x-jla
Sep 26, 15 6:08 pm
why do u need to take sat? I never took sats and still got into school
JBeaumont
Sep 26, 15 6:12 pm
He needed the SAT because: he was home-schooled and doesn't have a high school transcript. Then he went to community college and had a low GPA that didn't satisfy the threshold for admission to his state university's architecture department They offered him the option to submit SAT scores instead, but he wouldn't take it. That resulted in his choice to major in geography, because he'd already enrolled in the university and accepted financial aid, so he was kind of stuck in limbo between having to stay in college but not being able to study architecture.
null pointer
Sep 26, 15 6:13 pm
Welcome to another installment of Balkins-Makes-Excuses-About-Why-He-Fails.
Sep 26, 15 6:43 pm
True JBeaumont.
The primary factor is I actually WAY too damn close to completing a Bachelor's degree in the first place as you probably know already. A GRE test is usually required for M.Arch programs, for example.
Getting into a B.Arch is still a 5 year proposition even if I wasn't enrolled full-time because of not having to take the general education. In that situation, I would probably have to pay for it completely out of pocket. An SAT isn't accepted for an M.Arch from any program I see.
If I were to pursue an M.Arch, it would likely be at PSU as I can travel distance is probably less than going to Eugene from Astoria, Oregon. You get into that student housing thing.
The flip side of the issue is although I have less housing cost, I have more travel cost due to commuting. Therefore it is a crapshoot to calculate cost of gas to commute back and forth between Astoria/Portland which I would not be doing between Astoria/Eugene as the extent of time taken would eat too much of every day. Where, commuting between Astoria/Portland is only about 3-3.5 hours round trip which isn't exactly wonderful but then again... who the hell knows which option.
Then again, we have the 4+2 program and the GRE is still needed to be taken. In any case, I would have to brush up on the stuff prior to taking the tests regardless if the tests were SAT or GRE or ACT or whatever else.
jla-x,
The SAT topic in regards to me relates to UO. If I pursued PSU's 4+2 program, I would need to take the GRE for the M.Arch. I wouldn't be required to take the SAT.
If I would consider applying to UO's B.Arch again, then maybe I would take the SAT AFTER licensure then they can stuff their minimum GPA up their ass.
placebeyondthesplines
Sep 26, 15 7:08 pm
Richard, I say this with all due disrespect, but you are a goddamned idiot through and through. This calculus excuse is so fucking stupid that I almost question whether you are just trolling the shit out of everyone, but that would almost be more depressing.
You post an SAT prep document that says nothing about calculus as proof that there is calculus on the test? I mean for fuck's sake man, how can a person possibly be that much of an imbecile? For a second I wondered if you were confusing integers and integrals, and I genuinely would not have been surprised if you had avoided this test for years because of your lack of basic reading comprehension.
I mean really man, it's just astonishing. Everything you do and say is so amazingly and profoundly wrong-headed. It's honestly fascinating. Like the "to catch a predator" or "where exactly on the spectrum is Balkins" kind of fascinating.
null pointer
Sep 26, 15 7:12 pm
I mean really man, it's just astonishing. Everything you do and say is so amazingly and profoundly wrong-headed. It's honestly fascinating. Like the "to catch a predator" or "where exactly on the spectrum is Balkins" kind of fascinating.
I laughed quite loudly.
Sep 26, 15 7:27 pm
.
Sep 26, 15 7:38 pm
placebeyondthespline,
SHUT THE FUCK UP. We already got past that. I think I and JBeaumont already agree's on that at this point. It doesn't have calculus. Alright. GOOD! However, it does encompass abstract algebra in the SAT which does has significant weight in the math score. It isn't something I use in day to day practice of building design or even architecture and largely basic structural engineering equations isn't such. We can substitute every algebraic symbols used with numbers when doing structural design and that is what you do because that is what needs to be done in order to determine size of structural members, span between bearing support, etc. It isn't abstract for intellectual abstract theory sake. As I can give a fuck less about the theory behind algebraic expressions when I am trying to size the beams to carry to design loads and the spacing between load bearing supports and sizing columns and walls and so on.
The theory I care about is more why this equation is to be used in this application vs the other equation. Engineering theory.... yes. Algebraic theory... no. The latter is a distraction from the practical application.
Sep 26, 15 7:41 pm
In hindsight,
I should have went to PSU instead of UO.
Sep 26, 15 8:12 pm
An option I still have with money being the main biggest hurdle.
JBeaumont
Sep 26, 15 8:27 pm
This seems like another of those situations where you argue about what you think to be true about something you haven't actually done (in this case the SAT), with a bunch of people who have real-life experience doing that exact thing.
I've taken the SAT, and the GRE, and gone to architecture school, and taken the ARE, and been an architect and I can tell you this from experience: the math on the SAT and GRE isn't any more advanced than what anybody in any US high school would be expected to understand by the end of 9th grade at the latest. These tests are reasonably good indicators of minimum competency for a reasonable chance of success in architecture school, and on the ARE, because the same level of facility with math is required for those. If you're too rusty at basic algebra to score in the middle of the pack on the SAT, then you're going to have trouble with equations related to acoustics, electrical, in any architecture school with solid curricula on those.
In any case, the sensible course of action would have been to invest the test fee and the cost of a calculator and take the SAT back when you were arguing about your admittance to UO. The worst that could have happened would have been that you scored low and ended up exactly where you are now, minus the $75 test fee and the calculator - but there's also the possibility that you could have scored well enough for the architecture department's purposes. You argued yourself out of that possibility with excuses.
null pointer
Sep 26, 15 8:59 pm
That's funny, I use high-level algebra/trig pretty much all the time.
And I used it pretty much all the time too when I wasn't licensed X years ago. In fact, I probably haven't spent more than two weeks without coding something to solve a tedious task (even if it's something as simple at organizing backup archives and pushing them to Amazon Glacier).
What the fuck are you doing with that assembly programming background, Balkins?
This is why I don't believe an ounce of the shit you say you know. If you had that programming background that you say you have, you'd be unable to contain yourself. You'd see a problem and get that fucking tingle in the back of your head that says "I could write 100 lines of code to solve this" -- especially if you don't have enough work to garner enough fees to buy a goddamn calculator.
Sep 26, 15 9:04 pm
JBeaumont,
I agree with you from a hindsight perspective. If I could do it again, I would but life isn't that way. There is no rewind button to rewind the tape of time.
How about lets get past 2011 to now. You mention excuses. Okay. However, right now, not having the money isn't an excuse. It is a reason. I can't magically print money like the CIA and FBI or the U.S. Treasury.
I swore the admission department wants perfect scores on the SAT to compete. I would need the highest score possible on all the SAT exam scores to be considered by that department. I have to have such a disproportionately high and perfect SAT scores is what I am getting at. My SAT score would have to be significantly higher than everyone else.
Perfect score isn't easy even for you if you were to take the SAT at the next available testing or say in the next 6 months.
That is part of my beef. My GPA from the community college wasn't really that horrible. It wasn't D- GPA for crying out loud. However, the issue I have is they would want a proportionally higher SAT score than the preferred SAT scores as I am below the average GPA of the admitted students (around 3.5 GPA).
I would have to have SAT scores around 30-35% higher than the average which is in the 99%.
I would have to have a score of ~2200+.
This is the score level they want as preferred: 1650
JBeaumont
Sep 26, 15 9:20 pm
Getting the money means getting a full time job. Now, in 2015.
Anything else is another excuse.
The end.
Sep 26, 15 9:59 pm
No body makes enough money from full-time job to attend college. What employer offering me a full-time job would let me attend college/university?
The first day of class would be the day I get the pink slip.
I known employers that are that way. A surveying technician friend of mine had that basically happen to him.
Who the hell would employ me and let me go to university to attend classes that would absolutely occur during the hours the employer is open?
Who?
That is why I would run a business under a partnership of some sort where I can have the flex hours needed.
I need flexible work hours to attend university to any extent where the total time of impact of going to class (including travel time) exceeds 6 hours a week.
If the classes were all after 6pm.... then yes... that would be feasible.
Sep 26, 15 10:11 pm
Maybe... not exactly... nobody.
But for the most part, unless you're an executive or something like that, people just don't make that kind of money as an employees.
placebeyondthesplines
Sep 26, 15 10:44 pm
I completely forgot to ridicule you for the calculator thing. The suggestion that not having a graphic calculator means you can't take the SAT, which means you can't go to a real college, is one of the most baffling things I think you've ever said here.
BORROW A FUCKING CALCULATOR YOU KNOB. I'll lend you one. Seriously.
I would love to see an MRI of my brain when you write things like "I can't magically print money like the CIA and FBI or the U.S. Treasury," because I bet all the delicious schadenfreude centers of my brain light up like the goddamn fourth of July.
I wasn't kidding when I said we should start a wiki about the wacky misadventures of Lil' Dickie B, Professional Pretend Building Builder. A beautiful comprehensive resource to celebrate all the bullshit and contradictions and excuses and ignorance and inability and shortcomings and conspiracy theories and misinformation.
The prospect brings a tear to my eye and a warm glow to my otherwise cold black heart.
JBeaumont
Sep 26, 15 10:53 pm
I meant get a full time job, now, in 2015, and save money to go to college in the future. You live with your parents - you don't have high living expenses (if any). You should be able to save a substantial amount in a year or two.
I didn't have any parental support when I attended college. I paid for the whole thing myself, by working and financial aid. But I also had an apartment, a car, utility bills, etc. You don't have those, so you should be able to save more and faster.
null pointer
Sep 26, 15 11:16 pm
I had written a long diatribe.
fuck it.
this Balkins kid is a lost cause.
Sep 27, 15 1:48 am
JBeaumont,
I don't think it would really work out that easy. I'm pretty sure, as I am making more money, more of my money will be expected to be contributed to expenditures here in Astoria. Reasonably expected, that would in turn cut into savings capability.
There has to be other financial sources to tap.
Otherwise, I need to do stuff that can earn more money than can make working as an intern-employee to an architect which is more than a minimum wage employee but barely.
placebeyondthespline,
Not taking the SAT wasn't because I didn't have a working graphic calculator. I would have taken the SAT even without one. The issue is more like I have to do a perfect SAT score of 2400 on the current system which is even quite difficult to do even by those with a doctorates degree.
Sep 27, 15 2:01 am
placebeyondthespline:
Sure, I could probably just get one or whatever.
placebeyondthesplines
Sep 27, 15 2:12 am
Where (and I mean I'm asking for an actual source, not just your bizarre and incomprehensible intuition) are you getting this idea that you need a perfect SAT score?
Sep 27, 15 2:40 am
The admission adviser at the time. Basically, to compensate for lower than the average GPA of students admitted into the program, it was conveyed to me that I would have to compensate it in the SAT scores and portfolio.
If you do the mathematical compensation between the community college GPA and the average GPA of students they admit to the program and their average SAT score being in the 1650 range, I would have to balance the lower GPA with higher SAT. Do the math. The required SAT score would need to be 2000+ or 2200+ to be on the safe side.
Damn near perfect to perfect score on the SAT is what would be called for.
This is based on my CCC cumulative GPA.
placebeyondthesplines
Sep 27, 15 2:48 am
And what is that GPA?
Sep 27, 15 3:23 am
2.76 cum. GPA (first degree, I didn't really try for high GPA.). Last term cumulative GPA at CCC was 2.80 GPA.
My average GPA for my courses I took from Fall 2009 and afterwards in the Historic preservation would involved more mathematics to calculate but I'll give you the low to high range:
3.18 GPA ----> 4.0 GPA.
Lets just say my GPA level would should average ~3.6 from Fall 2009 to Winter 2011. This is sort of quick & dirty.
Sep 27, 15 3:33 am
If I took 1-2 more credits per term (during the Fall-Spring terms, one was summer term), I would have had honors mark throughout, several times despite cumulative GPA.
null pointer
Sep 27, 15 8:10 am
But you didn't, so the point is fucking moot.
How come you think it's ok for a C-student who didn't finish his bachelor's to be giving out advice on academics?
Non Sequitur
Sep 27, 15 9:34 am
want a cookie for your mediocrity?
Beepbeep
Sep 27, 15 10:31 am
Dude stop making excuses for yourself, you will never do anything. I worked the whole time I was in school for both the BS and MArch it makes you want it more.Yes I went to a state school and not an Ivy League program even though I was admitted to a few of them. However, I still work at an amazing published firm and they even pay well and the same type firm I would want to go to an IVY school to get hired and I sit right next to IVY kids making the same money. I just didn't have access to that amount of money I came from a regular family and would need to borrow and serve in the military and go to war to afford my masters so suck it up! So I don't think it is worth anyone giving any advise to you it is a waste of their time, you are hopeless you will never get out of the basement because you put yourself there and continue to keep yourself there.
Sep 27, 15 10:50 am
Beepbeep,
Give me explicit names of architecture employers who will allow employees to go to college? Names.
Remember this, university education in Oregon is 10x more expensive than it was in the mid-1990s.
Why?
It costs more than $2000 a year to attend university.
If tuition was under $5000 a year, then it is affordable to attend university while working. It's closer to $12000 a year.
null pointer
Sep 27, 15 1:38 pm
Whatever, Dick, take out loans.
I did that (like 50k+ total), and paid it all off within 6 years of graduating. Yeah, I packed a lot of meals, but sacrifices are part of the game.
BTW, I started while living in bumfuck nowhere in Brooklyn, with an hour and 10 minute commute just to get paid 15 an hour with no overtime paid (shitty unscrupulous asshole employer).
You can bite the bullet and make it through or you can continue to make shitty excuses for while you're a failure.
Also, get a fucking therapist.
JBeaumont
Sep 27, 15 2:06 pm
On the one hand I can understand why your parents would expect you to contribute more to expenses if you were making more money: they've been letting you freeload for 15+ years of adult life and if you started to make some real money they'd certainly be entitled to it. On the other hand, I would think that if they understood that you were saving it to finish your degree, they'd comprehend the value of that investment - it just might actually lead to you launching your adult life and getting out of their hair.
Have discussed this with them? Or are you just assuming that if you had a full time job they'd wand a big cut of it, and so once again talking your self out of even trying?
As for architecture firms, many if not most have part-time student employees. We have four in my firm now. That's how most of us started out. It's not impossible to find a job that starts as part-time, but it's easier to start full time (either for a summer, or working there for a year or so while not in school) and then talk to them about cutting back to part-time during school semesters.
You need to stop saying that you don't think things will work, or that whatever we're suggesting isn't "customary", and just get out there and talk to some prospective employers. All the rest of us have managed to get jobs, get into architecture schools, get apartments, take tests, get acceptable grades, get licensed... You claim to be a smart guy, you should be able to figure out how to get some of these things done.
Sep 27, 15 5:14 pm
JBeaumont,
Regarding my parents, I know them and past experience. Long story short, there is also previous experience.
I am currently working on converting my sole-proprietorship into a general partnership (after that, conversion to limited liability entity) involving an architect. There is steps in that process that I am working on that is not discussed on the forum itself.
Part of this is getting some of my IDP hours completed.
Sep 27, 15 5:20 pm
... some or all of my IDP hours completed.
null pointer
Sep 27, 15 5:37 pm
The steps are going into legalzoom and filling out some forms.
But Balkins browser doesn't support Javascript, and he's waiting on the Vivaldi to be a more mature codebase so that he can finally switch from Netscape.
(How did I do?)
Sep 27, 15 5:39 pm
null pointer:
LOL!
$50K-$55K in loans. You got to be f---ing kidding me. It costs $25,000 a year to attend university at undergraduate at absolute minimum / semi-starvation level.
You do realize, the student loans without other financial aid would be 100% cost of attendance. That would be $25,000 a year.
I don't think you'll get an architecture degree with only $50,000 loan. The past 3 years is already ~30-40K in loans. Good luck getting by with $10,000-20,000 in loans for an architecture degree.
I would have to have other financial aid or pay out of pocket to not accumulate $25,000 a year in loans.
JBeaumont
Sep 27, 15 5:49 pm
One of the steps is that the "architect" future-partner isn't even licensed yet. So Richard's life gets to remain on hold while he waits for however many months or years it takes the "architect" to finish testing and get processed by NCARB and the state. I suspect that once the architect does have a license in hand he will find that more worthwhile opportunities present themselves than forming a sham firm with Richard for the purpose of allowing Richard to accumulate IDP hours.
Richard, if your parents are going to demand a cut of your salary if you get a full time job, then find a way to move out. Have you looked into a senior share situation? That's where elderly people provide you with a free room in exchange for providing some home maintenance and chores, so that they can live in their own homes longer. Usually those situations allow you to have a regular full time job outside of the home - you just schedule the housework around it.
Hi all, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to read this. It may become long winded so I apologize in advance.
Timeline:
After all of that, I'm still interested in becoming an architect, but I am put off by my original experience at university (read, read, read.. test.. vs. technical school where there was a lot of hands on which led to my success as I'm a hands on learner). Though I feel that if I went back to university for another Bachelors degree, I would be ok because it is something that I'm actually interested in pursuing and if I start at the beginning I might be better off.
All that said, I'm looking for some guidance/advice/cautions/encouragement.
Sorry for the hot air. Thanks in advance
this thread is cracking me up.. :D So is 'AIBD, Professional Building Designer' the substitute for 'AIA, Architect'?
Brud-G wrote:
Balkins took some non architecture related classes at UofO. He liked to "hang-out" in the architecture department and creeped out one of the female proffessors. Balkins was asked (restraining order maybe?) not to come back. True story
WRONG!
I did take architecture related courses.Historic preservation is architecture related. So it landscape architecture courses. So is the HOPE Conference charette. So is the Intro to Architecture course and other courses I took.
Sorry but what the fuck are you babbling about in creeping out one of the female professors? I don't believe that was ever the case. The individual that had the UO Police talk to me following the AIAS meeting was the Admissions Advisor. I would prefer to not state the person's name. The lady is not a professor or instructor.
Never have i ever had a restraining order against me.
Did you drink, Balkins?
I don't have any restraining orders against me.
Sexy use of them verb tenses, dude.
null pointer,
There was no restraining orders involved. It is not one of those cases.
There isn't a rational cause for one. The calling of the UO Police was kind of excessive on the part of the Admission Advisor's office.
OP I'm pretty sure you can get licensed with just an insane amount of real world experience. Someone in my office just started out of high school as a drafter dude who took a CAD class. He was able to get the state to let him take licensing exams, this was in California so pretty strict standards. He also was way more knowledgeable than anyone else his age because he worked in the real world and skipped the useless tasks they give you in school, like making abstract models of "anger" or "blue." Also it seems you have a romantic view of the profession this will also save you the discouragement of spending so much effort to get a degree to become a CAD drafter. Architects simply perform the service of making building specs of other people's ideas. The only time they are "visionaries" are when they are working on a design competition for free to win a project, even then the project has mostly been figured out and the competition comes with all their stipulations. A MArc is nothing more than a masters of art, it's not gonna do much for you.
StarchitectAlpha,
The subject matter of the OP is Canada licensing so it will be dependent on the specific laws and rules of the province or territory.
As for myself, I am fully aware of the laws/rules you are referring to.
I don't know if that will be helpful for him getting licensed in Canada while an NAAB accredited degree maybe recognized as an approved education. Each province has their own licensing board very much like the states in the U.S. I don't know if licensing by experience in California or even Washington state and some sort of reciprocity into Canada will work.
I'd figure that will help you in rethinking your response to the OP so it can be more helpful to the OP's situation. Your suggestion applies more to me than necessarily the OP.
My bad
I'll have to take responsibility for that. The yammering about me didn't help.
Richard there's no calculus on the SAT at all - never has been, and the algebra is entirely 7th-8th-grade basic - nothing advanced. There's no studying required. Even if you're at all shaky on middle school math, you have the vocabulary to do pretty well on the verbal part.
Seems very weird that you regularly, eagerly spend your time researching the architecture licensing laws of other countries, but you didn't do your due diligence to research what's actually on the test that you refuse to take on principle, and let that derail your academic plans and sidetrack your whole career.
Original Poster: try to use your tech school background to get a job in an architecture firm for a year or so, to develop some more portfolio material and to see if you really like working in architecture. Then pursue the M.Arch route again.
JBeaumont,
Really...
https://sat.collegeboard.org/SAT/public/pdf/getting-ready-for-the-sat.pdf
It does get into abstract algebra. Sure, it might have been involved in tests but of course when you don't use abstract algebra, those concepts would be a little foggy because one doesn't use them outside of academia. You may use it more often if your major is a Math major to be a Math/Algebra/Calculus Professor. SAT does have questions in the abstract algebra. Maybe, not lamba calculus but abstract algebra. If I had to do lambda calculus and abstract algebra without a computer, I'd probably will kill the proctor.
Try some of those questions that have now on the SAT without a graphic calculator. It would be very tedious and time consuming and you're dealing with a timed exam which doesn't give you much of any time. I don't have a functional graphic calculator. Sure, some of those questions can be done well in the head. Some need to use paper but I don't know if the proctors will provide any scratch paper as they expect everyone to be using these graphic calculators which they probably won't provide at such an exam.
At this stage, I would probably be taking the GRE.
On the SAT the test booklet has the scratch paper in it - that way everybody taking it everywhere gets the same amount. All SAT questions can be done without a calculator, but you're supposed to bring a calculator - the requirements for the acceptable calculators are provided in the test application materials. Certainly the investment in an acceptable calculator is far less than the expense of 3 years of college in a major other than what you wanted to study!
SAT math really isn't that complicated - it's primarily a speed test of basic math, not an assessment test of advanced math. The subject matter of the GRE math tested is exactly the same as the SAT math - though the question types differ in some respects. On the GRE the scratch paper is provided in sheets or booklets by the test center (similar to the way it is provided for the ARE.)
There's a disadvantage in taking the GRE instead of the SAT, in the sense that the same percentage of correct questions achieved on the GRE generally results in a much lower percentile ranking than on the SAT (i.e. a % correct that would put you in the 90th percentile on the math sections of the SAT puts you around the 75th percentile on the GRE). That's because the pool of applicants on the GRE tends to have higher aptitude, because it's made exclusively of those who aspire to graduate school.
why do u need to take sat? I never took sats and still got into school
He needed the SAT because: he was home-schooled and doesn't have a high school transcript. Then he went to community college and had a low GPA that didn't satisfy the threshold for admission to his state university's architecture department They offered him the option to submit SAT scores instead, but he wouldn't take it. That resulted in his choice to major in geography, because he'd already enrolled in the university and accepted financial aid, so he was kind of stuck in limbo between having to stay in college but not being able to study architecture.
Welcome to another installment of Balkins-Makes-Excuses-About-Why-He-Fails.
True JBeaumont.
The primary factor is I actually WAY too damn close to completing a Bachelor's degree in the first place as you probably know already. A GRE test is usually required for M.Arch programs, for example.
Getting into a B.Arch is still a 5 year proposition even if I wasn't enrolled full-time because of not having to take the general education. In that situation, I would probably have to pay for it completely out of pocket. An SAT isn't accepted for an M.Arch from any program I see.
If I were to pursue an M.Arch, it would likely be at PSU as I can travel distance is probably less than going to Eugene from Astoria, Oregon. You get into that student housing thing.
The flip side of the issue is although I have less housing cost, I have more travel cost due to commuting. Therefore it is a crapshoot to calculate cost of gas to commute back and forth between Astoria/Portland which I would not be doing between Astoria/Eugene as the extent of time taken would eat too much of every day. Where, commuting between Astoria/Portland is only about 3-3.5 hours round trip which isn't exactly wonderful but then again... who the hell knows which option.
Then again, we have the 4+2 program and the GRE is still needed to be taken. In any case, I would have to brush up on the stuff prior to taking the tests regardless if the tests were SAT or GRE or ACT or whatever else.
jla-x,
The SAT topic in regards to me relates to UO. If I pursued PSU's 4+2 program, I would need to take the GRE for the M.Arch. I wouldn't be required to take the SAT.
If I would consider applying to UO's B.Arch again, then maybe I would take the SAT AFTER licensure then they can stuff their minimum GPA up their ass.
Richard, I say this with all due disrespect, but you are a goddamned idiot through and through. This calculus excuse is so fucking stupid that I almost question whether you are just trolling the shit out of everyone, but that would almost be more depressing.
You post an SAT prep document that says nothing about calculus as proof that there is calculus on the test? I mean for fuck's sake man, how can a person possibly be that much of an imbecile? For a second I wondered if you were confusing integers and integrals, and I genuinely would not have been surprised if you had avoided this test for years because of your lack of basic reading comprehension.
I mean really man, it's just astonishing. Everything you do and say is so amazingly and profoundly wrong-headed. It's honestly fascinating. Like the "to catch a predator" or "where exactly on the spectrum is Balkins" kind of fascinating.
I mean really man, it's just astonishing. Everything you do and say is so amazingly and profoundly wrong-headed. It's honestly fascinating. Like the "to catch a predator" or "where exactly on the spectrum is Balkins" kind of fascinating.
I laughed quite loudly.
.
placebeyondthespline,
SHUT THE FUCK UP. We already got past that. I think I and JBeaumont already agree's on that at this point. It doesn't have calculus. Alright. GOOD! However, it does encompass abstract algebra in the SAT which does has significant weight in the math score. It isn't something I use in day to day practice of building design or even architecture and largely basic structural engineering equations isn't such. We can substitute every algebraic symbols used with numbers when doing structural design and that is what you do because that is what needs to be done in order to determine size of structural members, span between bearing support, etc. It isn't abstract for intellectual abstract theory sake. As I can give a fuck less about the theory behind algebraic expressions when I am trying to size the beams to carry to design loads and the spacing between load bearing supports and sizing columns and walls and so on.
The theory I care about is more why this equation is to be used in this application vs the other equation. Engineering theory.... yes. Algebraic theory... no. The latter is a distraction from the practical application.
In hindsight,
I should have went to PSU instead of UO.
An option I still have with money being the main biggest hurdle.
This seems like another of those situations where you argue about what you think to be true about something you haven't actually done (in this case the SAT), with a bunch of people who have real-life experience doing that exact thing.
I've taken the SAT, and the GRE, and gone to architecture school, and taken the ARE, and been an architect and I can tell you this from experience: the math on the SAT and GRE isn't any more advanced than what anybody in any US high school would be expected to understand by the end of 9th grade at the latest. These tests are reasonably good indicators of minimum competency for a reasonable chance of success in architecture school, and on the ARE, because the same level of facility with math is required for those. If you're too rusty at basic algebra to score in the middle of the pack on the SAT, then you're going to have trouble with equations related to acoustics, electrical, in any architecture school with solid curricula on those.
In any case, the sensible course of action would have been to invest the test fee and the cost of a calculator and take the SAT back when you were arguing about your admittance to UO. The worst that could have happened would have been that you scored low and ended up exactly where you are now, minus the $75 test fee and the calculator - but there's also the possibility that you could have scored well enough for the architecture department's purposes. You argued yourself out of that possibility with excuses.
That's funny, I use high-level algebra/trig pretty much all the time.
And I used it pretty much all the time too when I wasn't licensed X years ago. In fact, I probably haven't spent more than two weeks without coding something to solve a tedious task (even if it's something as simple at organizing backup archives and pushing them to Amazon Glacier).
What the fuck are you doing with that assembly programming background, Balkins?
This is why I don't believe an ounce of the shit you say you know. If you had that programming background that you say you have, you'd be unable to contain yourself. You'd see a problem and get that fucking tingle in the back of your head that says "I could write 100 lines of code to solve this" -- especially if you don't have enough work to garner enough fees to buy a goddamn calculator.
JBeaumont,
I agree with you from a hindsight perspective. If I could do it again, I would but life isn't that way. There is no rewind button to rewind the tape of time.
How about lets get past 2011 to now. You mention excuses. Okay. However, right now, not having the money isn't an excuse. It is a reason. I can't magically print money like the CIA and FBI or the U.S. Treasury.
I swore the admission department wants perfect scores on the SAT to compete. I would need the highest score possible on all the SAT exam scores to be considered by that department. I have to have such a disproportionately high and perfect SAT scores is what I am getting at. My SAT score would have to be significantly higher than everyone else.
Perfect score isn't easy even for you if you were to take the SAT at the next available testing or say in the next 6 months.
That is part of my beef. My GPA from the community college wasn't really that horrible. It wasn't D- GPA for crying out loud. However, the issue I have is they would want a proportionally higher SAT score than the preferred SAT scores as I am below the average GPA of the admitted students (around 3.5 GPA).
I would have to have SAT scores around 30-35% higher than the average which is in the 99%.
I would have to have a score of ~2200+.
This is the score level they want as preferred: 1650
Getting the money means getting a full time job. Now, in 2015.
Anything else is another excuse.
The end.
No body makes enough money from full-time job to attend college. What employer offering me a full-time job would let me attend college/university?
The first day of class would be the day I get the pink slip.
I known employers that are that way. A surveying technician friend of mine had that basically happen to him.
Who the hell would employ me and let me go to university to attend classes that would absolutely occur during the hours the employer is open?
Who?
That is why I would run a business under a partnership of some sort where I can have the flex hours needed.
I need flexible work hours to attend university to any extent where the total time of impact of going to class (including travel time) exceeds 6 hours a week.
If the classes were all after 6pm.... then yes... that would be feasible.
Maybe... not exactly... nobody.
But for the most part, unless you're an executive or something like that, people just don't make that kind of money as an employees.
I completely forgot to ridicule you for the calculator thing. The suggestion that not having a graphic calculator means you can't take the SAT, which means you can't go to a real college, is one of the most baffling things I think you've ever said here.
BORROW A FUCKING CALCULATOR YOU KNOB. I'll lend you one. Seriously.
I would love to see an MRI of my brain when you write things like "I can't magically print money like the CIA and FBI or the U.S. Treasury," because I bet all the delicious schadenfreude centers of my brain light up like the goddamn fourth of July.
I wasn't kidding when I said we should start a wiki about the wacky misadventures of Lil' Dickie B, Professional Pretend Building Builder. A beautiful comprehensive resource to celebrate all the bullshit and contradictions and excuses and ignorance and inability and shortcomings and conspiracy theories and misinformation.
The prospect brings a tear to my eye and a warm glow to my otherwise cold black heart.
I meant get a full time job, now, in 2015, and save money to go to college in the future. You live with your parents - you don't have high living expenses (if any). You should be able to save a substantial amount in a year or two.
I didn't have any parental support when I attended college. I paid for the whole thing myself, by working and financial aid. But I also had an apartment, a car, utility bills, etc. You don't have those, so you should be able to save more and faster.
I had written a long diatribe.
fuck it.
this Balkins kid is a lost cause.
JBeaumont,
I don't think it would really work out that easy. I'm pretty sure, as I am making more money, more of my money will be expected to be contributed to expenditures here in Astoria. Reasonably expected, that would in turn cut into savings capability.
There has to be other financial sources to tap.
Otherwise, I need to do stuff that can earn more money than can make working as an intern-employee to an architect which is more than a minimum wage employee but barely.
placebeyondthespline,
Not taking the SAT wasn't because I didn't have a working graphic calculator. I would have taken the SAT even without one. The issue is more like I have to do a perfect SAT score of 2400 on the current system which is even quite difficult to do even by those with a doctorates degree.
placebeyondthespline:
Sure, I could probably just get one or whatever.
Where (and I mean I'm asking for an actual source, not just your bizarre and incomprehensible intuition) are you getting this idea that you need a perfect SAT score?
The admission adviser at the time. Basically, to compensate for lower than the average GPA of students admitted into the program, it was conveyed to me that I would have to compensate it in the SAT scores and portfolio.
If you do the mathematical compensation between the community college GPA and the average GPA of students they admit to the program and their average SAT score being in the 1650 range, I would have to balance the lower GPA with higher SAT. Do the math. The required SAT score would need to be 2000+ or 2200+ to be on the safe side.
Damn near perfect to perfect score on the SAT is what would be called for.
This is based on my CCC cumulative GPA.
And what is that GPA?
2.76 cum. GPA (first degree, I didn't really try for high GPA.). Last term cumulative GPA at CCC was 2.80 GPA.
My average GPA for my courses I took from Fall 2009 and afterwards in the Historic preservation would involved more mathematics to calculate but I'll give you the low to high range:
3.18 GPA ----> 4.0 GPA.
Lets just say my GPA level would should average ~3.6 from Fall 2009 to Winter 2011. This is sort of quick & dirty.
If I took 1-2 more credits per term (during the Fall-Spring terms, one was summer term), I would have had honors mark throughout, several times despite cumulative GPA.
But you didn't, so the point is fucking moot.
How come you think it's ok for a C-student who didn't finish his bachelor's to be giving out advice on academics?
want a cookie for your mediocrity?
Dude stop making excuses for yourself, you will never do anything. I worked the whole time I was in school for both the BS and MArch it makes you want it more.Yes I went to a state school and not an Ivy League program even though I was admitted to a few of them. However, I still work at an amazing published firm and they even pay well and the same type firm I would want to go to an IVY school to get hired and I sit right next to IVY kids making the same money. I just didn't have access to that amount of money I came from a regular family and would need to borrow and serve in the military and go to war to afford my masters so suck it up! So I don't think it is worth anyone giving any advise to you it is a waste of their time, you are hopeless you will never get out of the basement because you put yourself there and continue to keep yourself there.
Beepbeep,
Give me explicit names of architecture employers who will allow employees to go to college? Names.
Remember this, university education in Oregon is 10x more expensive than it was in the mid-1990s.
Why?
It costs more than $2000 a year to attend university.
If tuition was under $5000 a year, then it is affordable to attend university while working. It's closer to $12000 a year.
Whatever, Dick, take out loans.
I did that (like 50k+ total), and paid it all off within 6 years of graduating. Yeah, I packed a lot of meals, but sacrifices are part of the game.
BTW, I started while living in bumfuck nowhere in Brooklyn, with an hour and 10 minute commute just to get paid 15 an hour with no overtime paid (shitty unscrupulous asshole employer).
You can bite the bullet and make it through or you can continue to make shitty excuses for while you're a failure.
Also, get a fucking therapist.
On the one hand I can understand why your parents would expect you to contribute more to expenses if you were making more money: they've been letting you freeload for 15+ years of adult life and if you started to make some real money they'd certainly be entitled to it. On the other hand, I would think that if they understood that you were saving it to finish your degree, they'd comprehend the value of that investment - it just might actually lead to you launching your adult life and getting out of their hair.
Have discussed this with them? Or are you just assuming that if you had a full time job they'd wand a big cut of it, and so once again talking your self out of even trying?
As for architecture firms, many if not most have part-time student employees. We have four in my firm now. That's how most of us started out. It's not impossible to find a job that starts as part-time, but it's easier to start full time (either for a summer, or working there for a year or so while not in school) and then talk to them about cutting back to part-time during school semesters.
You need to stop saying that you don't think things will work, or that whatever we're suggesting isn't "customary", and just get out there and talk to some prospective employers. All the rest of us have managed to get jobs, get into architecture schools, get apartments, take tests, get acceptable grades, get licensed... You claim to be a smart guy, you should be able to figure out how to get some of these things done.
JBeaumont,
Regarding my parents, I know them and past experience. Long story short, there is also previous experience.
I am currently working on converting my sole-proprietorship into a general partnership (after that, conversion to limited liability entity) involving an architect. There is steps in that process that I am working on that is not discussed on the forum itself.
Part of this is getting some of my IDP hours completed.
... some or all of my IDP hours completed.
The steps are going into legalzoom and filling out some forms.
But Balkins browser doesn't support Javascript, and he's waiting on the Vivaldi to be a more mature codebase so that he can finally switch from Netscape.
(How did I do?)
null pointer:
LOL!
$50K-$55K in loans. You got to be f---ing kidding me. It costs $25,000 a year to attend university at undergraduate at absolute minimum / semi-starvation level.
You do realize, the student loans without other financial aid would be 100% cost of attendance. That would be $25,000 a year.
I don't think you'll get an architecture degree with only $50,000 loan. The past 3 years is already ~30-40K in loans. Good luck getting by with $10,000-20,000 in loans for an architecture degree.
I would have to have other financial aid or pay out of pocket to not accumulate $25,000 a year in loans.
One of the steps is that the "architect" future-partner isn't even licensed yet. So Richard's life gets to remain on hold while he waits for however many months or years it takes the "architect" to finish testing and get processed by NCARB and the state. I suspect that once the architect does have a license in hand he will find that more worthwhile opportunities present themselves than forming a sham firm with Richard for the purpose of allowing Richard to accumulate IDP hours.
Richard, if your parents are going to demand a cut of your salary if you get a full time job, then find a way to move out. Have you looked into a senior share situation? That's where elderly people provide you with a free room in exchange for providing some home maintenance and chores, so that they can live in their own homes longer. Usually those situations allow you to have a regular full time job outside of the home - you just schedule the housework around it.