I recently accepted an offer from another firm. (There was a little back and forth). I pretty much immediately told my current employer. About an hour later, I was called into the conference room and was given a counter offer, one that literally made my jaw drop. If you look into my history, you will see that I had an issue some time ago with salary satisfaction. Since that last post, I received 3 substantial raises. (4 including this last one) It's clear to me that I am valued, and that there are opportunities here for me.
That being said, I had been unhappy at this current company for some time now. I'm not the only one, as 4 others have left in the past 12 months. I am only considering this because the offer I accepted was from a firm that was not my top choice, and it's impossible to say whether I would be significantly happier at the new firm. I am worried if I accepted this counter offer (thus, declining an offer I had already accepted) I would be decimating my reputation locally. I don't know how much firm owners talk, but I assume they do.
Thoughts/advice? I know I can only make the decision for me but I'd like to know what others would do in my situation.
chigurh
Aug 24, 15 1:26 pm
your current employer is dumb...never counter...it always equals a shift in power, where you don't have to give a shit anymore, take the raise and just relax cause they need you way the hell more than you need them.
If you want to stay where you are and know that you can do whatever the hell you want from this point forward, stay....otherwise, jump ship, better to experience a different office anyways in my opinion, especially if you are on the green side.
DeTwan
Aug 24, 15 1:53 pm
Usually it is quite the opposite. By taking the new offer from your existing job, at a significant raise, you will be expected to pull the bigger work loads now. Your boss is expecting you to work harder than you ever have. Your boss will not expect you to be more careless, and doing so is a sure fire way of making your life even more stressed.
All in all, most architecture firms despise one another in the same town solely from competing in that same market, sadly it sounds like you're going to piss someone off. Who cares, money talks and BS walks, this industry has no more ladders up anymore.
Sounds like chigurh is a little disgruntle on the subject...lol
geezertect
Aug 24, 15 2:02 pm
FWIW, most career "experts" will tell you that once you have accepted another job, take the other job because a "disloyal" label is now on your forehead for shopping around, and you will be one of the first to be let go in any future layoff.
If they can't keep people in spite of throwing money at them, there must be something going on at your current firm(?)
DeTwan
Aug 24, 15 2:31 pm
I don't really buy that. Most business owner that run a company pay the most to employees that help generate the most revenue/business and are considered valuable to the company.
If you boss really feels like you're disloyal then he would have never made the offer. He probably deep down inside know you deserve every penny you make, and that you have provided your services consistently and at a more than fair wage. If you keep pulling your half it sounds like you are needed, and needed more than you thought. And most employers in the architecture industry know that it is hard to find some right outta the box that will fit the role. And that it is a long time consuming process to get someone new up to speed, even if they are comparably similar to your skills.
As and if the building market gets better, this will be a reoccurring event for many employers as demand for quality workers increases. The collapse of 2001 and 2008 shall start to shine through with how hard it is to find qualified employees that are willing to work for peanut shells.
I would suggest that anyone working in the architecture and not making much and have some know how to ask for a raise, or at least start to fish with your resume and see what is out there!
chigurh
Aug 24, 15 2:32 pm
Not disgruntled at all...that is business 101, in addition to geezers points above.
Once a person has decided to move on emotionally, taken the incentive to interview, accept an offer, it is very difficult to reverse or stop that momentum. In addition, if you have any negative feelings about management or how things are done and you decide to stay for a counter offer, all of that gets amplified. Think about it, the grass is always greener, but you stayed and are dealing with the same bullshit.
To the OP, it is in your and your current firms best interest for you to leave.
chigurh
Aug 24, 15 2:35 pm
DeTwan...you are wrong.
DeTwan
Aug 24, 15 2:45 pm
You are reading books on business written by ppl in the 70's and 80's? Times have changed and you ideas may be out of date. You many need a few lessons on how quickly commerce and business moves nowadays. Would suggest books outside of the Reagenomic era perhaps.
Op, if there was another downturn in the near future you certainly might be the first person let go...but then there is unemployment. And that's if and when. But it doesn't sound like your work life may improve much if you stayed.
DeTwan
Aug 24, 15 2:50 pm
And like I mentioned, it is hard to find quality qualified workers, more so in architecture than most industries. There is becoming less and less wiggle room for employers to pay chump change in a "better" economy. That is Business 101. always has always will.
geezertect
Aug 24, 15 3:21 pm
Times have changed and you ideas may be out of date. You many need a few lessons on how quickly commerce and business moves nowadays. Would suggest books outside of the Reaganomics era perhaps.
Some things have changed since the late Pleistocene age of Reagan, but not everything and certainly not the basics of human nature.
Employers will ALWAYS want to pay as little as possible. Employees will ALWAYS want to make as much as possible. All things considered, of course. And no one likes to lose a negotiation, particularly someone (like a boss) who thought they had the greater leverage. People take shit personally and hold grudges, whether they should or not.
I obviously don't know what the OP should do since there isn't a lot of information in the first post. I'm just saying that all angles need to be considered.
molten
Aug 24, 15 3:52 pm
@chigurgh I have been complacent for months now, which is why I had started looking. If I accepted the new offer I'm not sure much would change. The work is not my complaint but it's management/environment that has me unhappy.
@geezertect I am in many ways trying to be a little vague because my situation is quite unique and I don't want to inadvertently reveal myself, if that's even possible. 1 of the 4 people who left was one of the principles (we had two). During the meeting for the counteroffer I was told that his role remains unfulfilled (he was mainly the director of design) and that there are opportunities that arise as a result. He was not implying that I would fill that position. I have been heavily involved in front end design and concept but I suppose that would expand? That part seems hazy to me.
Just so there is a better base of reference, the offer that was extended was 75k/yr. I am 25 and I wonder if it is extremely foolish to accept such an offer (no matter how tempting). I am not trying to compare myself to my peers (at my current firm, my old classmates/friends) but I'm not sure how I (or any person with such limited experience, for that matter) could justify that salary...
chigurh
Aug 24, 15 4:03 pm
If you take the new job everything would change, new company is an entirely new deal, management, execution, there are going to be negatives, all jobs have em, you just have to ask if they are negatives you can deal with...you won't know until you start, so there is some uncertainty there.
sounds like a typical counteroffer discussion - a bunch of empty promises - "there may be opportunities that arise as a result" implying that you will become the design director...fat chance. Imagine how upset you are going to be in a year if you stay on and none of that comes to fruition. I was in a similar position, jumped ship, was the best decision I ever made. People will say anything to get you to stay.
DeTwan
Aug 24, 15 4:10 pm
That is really not that much money. There are may 25 year olds that make much more than that, especially in other industries and as entrepreneurs. Don't be affair of the money...that is silly. It shows how important you are in the office, and that he wants you to stop looking for a different job. I'm guessing that your employer is not a complete idiot if they can offer that much. It's not wrapped up in bonuses or anything?
How long have you been working in architecture?
geezertect
Aug 24, 15 7:10 pm
That is really not that much money. There are may 25 year olds that make much more than that, especially in other industries and as entrepreneurs
It is irrelevant what others may make in other lines of work. This is architecture! And 75k is suspiciously high pay particularly for someone that young (unless you began your career when you were eight years old). You are correct to be wondering, "What's the catch?".
curtkram
Aug 24, 15 7:12 pm
4 out of how many left? were they somewhat senior positions?
geezertect
Aug 24, 15 7:57 pm
The OP says one of them was one of the two principals. I would bet that the firm is in some state of chaos right now. Maybe in danger of clients going with the departing principal. Maybe the two principals are in legal tussle. Something sounds amiss.
Don't be surprised if the juicy offer is only being extended to stabilize the firm, and that once things are on an even keel the boss will decide to "revisit" things.
If you decide to stay, don't start living at a 75k level until you are clear on how real it is.
If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
Keep us posted, please.
3tk
Aug 24, 15 8:09 pm
Depends on where you are and your experience (yrs, but also breadth and depth) - the figure is not unusual for 5+ yrs experience in major cities at higher revenue firms (also may be tied to a higher work load - some firms expect 65+ hrs of billable hrs); I've known some people have to made a lot more, but some were overwhelmed and got fired. Since you've accepted the offer, i think you've cornered yourself but I'm assuming you did the background check on the new digs. As others have noted, don't spend the money until you know you can handle it and keep earning it.
I don't understand why you'd consider accepting the counter - it's something you should have asked for before accepting the other offer (rescinding an acceptance goes against etiquette - best to leave on good terms from the current office). Having a partner leave does usually free up cash, but it's not a good sign - sounds like a lot of responsibility being shifted around. Either way, if you didn't like the management, it'll get worse before better (unless the other partner was the issue).
Stasis
Aug 24, 15 8:44 pm
hi all, I have a question on taking a counter offer. If you choose to accept the counter offer, how does the management see you from that point on? Dis-loyal, mercurial person who would jump when there is a better opportunity? or Would they rather see that person as loyal for choosing to stay? I am asking because I chose to take the counter offer but I am little concerned that if this will hurt me in the long run. Yes, the lot of work was put onto my plate after taking the counter offer, but I also feel that if I just hurt my chance to get promoted in the future..
geezertect
Aug 24, 15 9:24 pm
Stasis: Obviously, there is no one answer. It depends on the players involved. Some will respect you for not being a laydown, and others will hate you for it. As I said earlier, career "experts" I've heard seem to generally be of the mind that once you have taken another offer from another employer, you should continue walking out the door. It would appear that not everyone agrees.
DeTwan
Aug 24, 15 9:38 pm
Most true business savvy people will respect you for not being a lay down. Then again, there are not that many business savvy people in the architecture industry.
Carrera
Aug 24, 15 11:15 pm
The OP fell in a crack. Nothing wrong with procuring an offer, but before you accept the offer you do a sit-down with your present employer, IF you would rather stay. Since you now have a choice I would take a hard look at the two and their history during the last recession…the train is coming.
molten
Aug 25, 15 10:27 am
Well, I made my decision...I ended up rejecting the counter.
shellarchitect
Aug 25, 15 11:51 am
Didn't get a chance to weigh in earlier, but I had a similar situation and ended up declining the counter offer even though it was a bit higher than my new job.
What I found interesting is that a couple weeks later, the old firm's HR person posted a story on LinkedIn saying one should never accept a counteroffer.
Carrera
Aug 25, 15 12:01 pm
^ Interesting. Think there are a lot of dynamics to the counteroffer, most not good.
I recently accepted an offer from another firm. (There was a little back and forth). I pretty much immediately told my current employer. About an hour later, I was called into the conference room and was given a counter offer, one that literally made my jaw drop. If you look into my history, you will see that I had an issue some time ago with salary satisfaction. Since that last post, I received 3 substantial raises. (4 including this last one) It's clear to me that I am valued, and that there are opportunities here for me.
That being said, I had been unhappy at this current company for some time now. I'm not the only one, as 4 others have left in the past 12 months. I am only considering this because the offer I accepted was from a firm that was not my top choice, and it's impossible to say whether I would be significantly happier at the new firm. I am worried if I accepted this counter offer (thus, declining an offer I had already accepted) I would be decimating my reputation locally. I don't know how much firm owners talk, but I assume they do.
Thoughts/advice? I know I can only make the decision for me but I'd like to know what others would do in my situation.
your current employer is dumb...never counter...it always equals a shift in power, where you don't have to give a shit anymore, take the raise and just relax cause they need you way the hell more than you need them.
If you want to stay where you are and know that you can do whatever the hell you want from this point forward, stay....otherwise, jump ship, better to experience a different office anyways in my opinion, especially if you are on the green side.
Usually it is quite the opposite. By taking the new offer from your existing job, at a significant raise, you will be expected to pull the bigger work loads now. Your boss is expecting you to work harder than you ever have. Your boss will not expect you to be more careless, and doing so is a sure fire way of making your life even more stressed.
All in all, most architecture firms despise one another in the same town solely from competing in that same market, sadly it sounds like you're going to piss someone off. Who cares, money talks and BS walks, this industry has no more ladders up anymore.
Sounds like chigurh is a little disgruntle on the subject...lol
FWIW, most career "experts" will tell you that once you have accepted another job, take the other job because a "disloyal" label is now on your forehead for shopping around, and you will be one of the first to be let go in any future layoff.
If they can't keep people in spite of throwing money at them, there must be something going on at your current firm(?)
I don't really buy that. Most business owner that run a company pay the most to employees that help generate the most revenue/business and are considered valuable to the company.
If you boss really feels like you're disloyal then he would have never made the offer. He probably deep down inside know you deserve every penny you make, and that you have provided your services consistently and at a more than fair wage. If you keep pulling your half it sounds like you are needed, and needed more than you thought. And most employers in the architecture industry know that it is hard to find some right outta the box that will fit the role. And that it is a long time consuming process to get someone new up to speed, even if they are comparably similar to your skills.
As and if the building market gets better, this will be a reoccurring event for many employers as demand for quality workers increases. The collapse of 2001 and 2008 shall start to shine through with how hard it is to find qualified employees that are willing to work for peanut shells.
I would suggest that anyone working in the architecture and not making much and have some know how to ask for a raise, or at least start to fish with your resume and see what is out there!
Not disgruntled at all...that is business 101, in addition to geezers points above.
Once a person has decided to move on emotionally, taken the incentive to interview, accept an offer, it is very difficult to reverse or stop that momentum. In addition, if you have any negative feelings about management or how things are done and you decide to stay for a counter offer, all of that gets amplified. Think about it, the grass is always greener, but you stayed and are dealing with the same bullshit.
To the OP, it is in your and your current firms best interest for you to leave.
DeTwan...you are wrong.
You are reading books on business written by ppl in the 70's and 80's? Times have changed and you ideas may be out of date. You many need a few lessons on how quickly commerce and business moves nowadays. Would suggest books outside of the Reagenomic era perhaps.
Op, if there was another downturn in the near future you certainly might be the first person let go...but then there is unemployment. And that's if and when. But it doesn't sound like your work life may improve much if you stayed.
And like I mentioned, it is hard to find quality qualified workers, more so in architecture than most industries. There is becoming less and less wiggle room for employers to pay chump change in a "better" economy. That is Business 101. always has always will.
Times have changed and you ideas may be out of date. You many need a few lessons on how quickly commerce and business moves nowadays. Would suggest books outside of the Reaganomics era perhaps.
Some things have changed since the late Pleistocene age of Reagan, but not everything and certainly not the basics of human nature.
Employers will ALWAYS want to pay as little as possible. Employees will ALWAYS want to make as much as possible. All things considered, of course. And no one likes to lose a negotiation, particularly someone (like a boss) who thought they had the greater leverage. People take shit personally and hold grudges, whether they should or not.
I obviously don't know what the OP should do since there isn't a lot of information in the first post. I'm just saying that all angles need to be considered.
@chigurgh I have been complacent for months now, which is why I had started looking. If I accepted the new offer I'm not sure much would change. The work is not my complaint but it's management/environment that has me unhappy.
@geezertect I am in many ways trying to be a little vague because my situation is quite unique and I don't want to inadvertently reveal myself, if that's even possible. 1 of the 4 people who left was one of the principles (we had two). During the meeting for the counteroffer I was told that his role remains unfulfilled (he was mainly the director of design) and that there are opportunities that arise as a result. He was not implying that I would fill that position. I have been heavily involved in front end design and concept but I suppose that would expand? That part seems hazy to me.
Just so there is a better base of reference, the offer that was extended was 75k/yr. I am 25 and I wonder if it is extremely foolish to accept such an offer (no matter how tempting). I am not trying to compare myself to my peers (at my current firm, my old classmates/friends) but I'm not sure how I (or any person with such limited experience, for that matter) could justify that salary...
If you take the new job everything would change, new company is an entirely new deal, management, execution, there are going to be negatives, all jobs have em, you just have to ask if they are negatives you can deal with...you won't know until you start, so there is some uncertainty there.
sounds like a typical counteroffer discussion - a bunch of empty promises - "there may be opportunities that arise as a result" implying that you will become the design director...fat chance. Imagine how upset you are going to be in a year if you stay on and none of that comes to fruition. I was in a similar position, jumped ship, was the best decision I ever made. People will say anything to get you to stay.
That is really not that much money. There are may 25 year olds that make much more than that, especially in other industries and as entrepreneurs. Don't be affair of the money...that is silly. It shows how important you are in the office, and that he wants you to stop looking for a different job. I'm guessing that your employer is not a complete idiot if they can offer that much. It's not wrapped up in bonuses or anything?
How long have you been working in architecture?
That is really not that much money. There are may 25 year olds that make much more than that, especially in other industries and as entrepreneurs
It is irrelevant what others may make in other lines of work. This is architecture! And 75k is suspiciously high pay particularly for someone that young (unless you began your career when you were eight years old). You are correct to be wondering, "What's the catch?".
4 out of how many left? were they somewhat senior positions?
The OP says one of them was one of the two principals. I would bet that the firm is in some state of chaos right now. Maybe in danger of clients going with the departing principal. Maybe the two principals are in legal tussle. Something sounds amiss.
Don't be surprised if the juicy offer is only being extended to stabilize the firm, and that once things are on an even keel the boss will decide to "revisit" things.
If you decide to stay, don't start living at a 75k level until you are clear on how real it is.
If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
Keep us posted, please.
Depends on where you are and your experience (yrs, but also breadth and depth) - the figure is not unusual for 5+ yrs experience in major cities at higher revenue firms (also may be tied to a higher work load - some firms expect 65+ hrs of billable hrs); I've known some people have to made a lot more, but some were overwhelmed and got fired. Since you've accepted the offer, i think you've cornered yourself but I'm assuming you did the background check on the new digs. As others have noted, don't spend the money until you know you can handle it and keep earning it.
I don't understand why you'd consider accepting the counter - it's something you should have asked for before accepting the other offer (rescinding an acceptance goes against etiquette - best to leave on good terms from the current office). Having a partner leave does usually free up cash, but it's not a good sign - sounds like a lot of responsibility being shifted around. Either way, if you didn't like the management, it'll get worse before better (unless the other partner was the issue).
hi all, I have a question on taking a counter offer. If you choose to accept the counter offer, how does the management see you from that point on? Dis-loyal, mercurial person who would jump when there is a better opportunity? or Would they rather see that person as loyal for choosing to stay? I am asking because I chose to take the counter offer but I am little concerned that if this will hurt me in the long run. Yes, the lot of work was put onto my plate after taking the counter offer, but I also feel that if I just hurt my chance to get promoted in the future..
Stasis: Obviously, there is no one answer. It depends on the players involved. Some will respect you for not being a laydown, and others will hate you for it. As I said earlier, career "experts" I've heard seem to generally be of the mind that once you have taken another offer from another employer, you should continue walking out the door. It would appear that not everyone agrees.
Most true business savvy people will respect you for not being a lay down. Then again, there are not that many business savvy people in the architecture industry.
The OP fell in a crack. Nothing wrong with procuring an offer, but before you accept the offer you do a sit-down with your present employer, IF you would rather stay. Since you now have a choice I would take a hard look at the two and their history during the last recession…the train is coming.
Well, I made my decision...I ended up rejecting the counter.
Didn't get a chance to weigh in earlier, but I had a similar situation and ended up declining the counter offer even though it was a bit higher than my new job.
What I found interesting is that a couple weeks later, the old firm's HR person posted a story on LinkedIn saying one should never accept a counteroffer.
^ Interesting. Think there are a lot of dynamics to the counteroffer, most not good.