Hi everyone! I am moving the the States the next month and I am already looking for jobs. I wanted to ask you the differences between Project Architect and Project Designer. I have 5 years of experience as architect in different fields, designing the whole project, but I don't really know what position i should apply.
Also I don't know if because I am not from here, I haven't worked with your codes before, my mother tongue is spanish... I should apply as a intern first... How much are interns normally get paid?
Thank you very much in advance!!!
Good_Knight
Jul 13, 15 12:50 pm
If you are not registered/ licensed in at least 1 state you are not an Architect in the states. Period. Therefore you are not in possession of 5 years of experience as architect if you are even wondering if you should be applying as an intern.
Intern. You should never refer to yourself as Project Architect.
Project Designer, yes. There are plenty of wanna be architects hiding behind this title.
shellarchitect
Jul 13, 15 12:54 pm
depends a bit of the firm....
project architect is almost always licensed and generally responsible for the technical documents.
project designer MAY be licensed and responsible for the appearance of the building.
you're prob somewhere in the Intern 2-3 area, I don't know what pay in Seattle is like, guestimating 40-60k.
Pay can vary quite a bit, both by area of the country and size of the firm.
x-jla
Jul 13, 15 12:58 pm
"Intern" is no longer a thing...Knight, technically you are only an architect in the state that you are licensed in...if you travel to Florida you are no longer an architect...
SneakyPete
Jul 13, 15 1:25 pm
Licensing laws, you crazy.
Good_Knight
Jul 13, 15 1:31 pm
Good point jla. Thanks for pointing this out.
Link to the position NCARB is taking presently on the title "intern"
"“Architects are those who have met all the requirements to become licensed in states and jurisdictions throughout the United States,” said NCARB President Dale McKinney, FAIA, NCARB. “Everyone else is not an architect. But their status also doesn’t need a regulatory title such as ‘intern’ or any similar reference. This has become a term that has been perceived as negative by many in the architecture community and a term that really does not fully value the work that aspiring architects bring to the profession.”
Personally, I agree that the term intern is derogatory to those unlicensed architectural school graduates with years of experience and excellent professional work histories.
I think in the long run this bodes well for the profession -for both architects and unlicensed architectural school graduates.
Roberto1
Jul 13, 15 1:49 pm
Thanks everyone for your answers! Just a thing, between Intern and Project Designers, what is the difference? Do one have more experience than the other? Thanks again guys!
Good_Knight
Jul 13, 15 2:21 pm
"interns" (gawd I hate this title) are CAD jockeys and office minions who generally do everything per whatever is expedient at the moment.
"project designers" focus on the design up front aka schematic design, in my experience.
you have to either have some connections straight out of school or have several years of proven talent to be a project designer in my opinion. These days, though, with title inflation, I keep seeing "project designer" and "project manager" being used rather loosely: even to describe very fresh architectural school graduates without any necessarily extraordinary demonstrable experience or talent.
I prefer the term drafter for those that never intend to get their license. Its more honest for everybody.
For those that are sincerely working towards licensure after graduation from an accredited professional school, the title "architect in residence" or "resident architect" seems most fitting.
For what its worth I think the profession would do itself a huge favor if it were to come up with an "A.I.T." examination for those intent on becoming licensed professionals aka architects. Similar to the "E.I.T." engineers already have.
What this would do is once again get those on the path towards licensure out of the role of drafter and on the fast track to architect.
Right now the profession is very inefficient in that it uses smart professional minds to do too much stupid linear production work aka drafting.
It would be like doctors having to fulfill the duties of nurses and nurses fulfilling the professional shoes of doctors.
NCARB and the AIA are completely foolish in this regard.
The professional bodies are composed of a strange mix of egos, ignorance., and incompetence.
kjdt
Jul 13, 15 3:36 pm
It's not 100% true that you're only an architect in the state in which you're licensed. If you're NCARB-Certified there are more than 20 states in which you're allowed to call yourself an architect for the purpose of pursuing projects in those states, before you're licensed in them. In almost all of them you need to become licensed in the state before you can sign a contract. There are a few exceptions even to that - a few states allow a limited endorsement of another state's license on a per-project basis.
"Project Architect" and "Project Designer" have varying meanings from firm to firm. In some both are senior-level positions. In others "Project Designer" can be nearly entry-level, and "Project Architect" can be a mid-level coordination architect who might be called "Job Captain" in another firm.
x-jla
Jul 13, 15 3:41 pm
I know plenty of non-licensed people who do far more than "draft"...many who are senior level "project architects"...so long as you work in a firm you can do anything an architect does besides stamp drawings...stamping is pretty irrelevant for architects (licensed or not) who work at a national or international level or in a large firm...
Jul 13, 15 4:44 pm
Good_Knight,
I have to say that 'resident architect' could technically be problematic in some states that requires residency for licensure in that it means, they license to those with residence (office) in the state.
"Residency" refers to clinical residency in most fields.... ie. hospitals and clinics. We are not clinics and hospitals.
Regarding term drafter. That term doesn't matter if you are on or not on licensing path. Drafting does qualify of IDP so you are on licensure path once you are enrolled in college, or enrolled in IDP. We can't say whether or not they ever intend to get licensed. We can't be so judgmental and writing these people off just because they aren't moving through licensing path as fast.
How can we judge 'sincere'? It is none of our business to judge that. Personally and objectively, 'architect' is a protected title reserved for those who are licensed. Those who are not are drafters, designers, managers but not architects. If we deregulate architect title then we have to deregulate for all because even professional building designers could be on license track whenever they earn experience under an architect for experience path to licensure.
We have those pathways to licensure so why shouldn't we think a little more than those with a NAAB accredited degree.
In regards to AIT exam, why reinvent the wheel. Use the AIBD/NCBDC CPBD exam.
In that case, every AIT would be a CPBD but use of AIT would be limited to use indicating status level in licensure path.
Who cares if CPBD is currently of limited use but just a record of passing it and good standing upon filing for AIT status. Use of CPBD title would contend on maintaining the CPBD certification renewal. If you let it lapse after attaining AIT, you can use AIT for its qualified use but lose authorization to use CPBD title and initials per AIBD/NCBDC rules.
We can recognize a professional certification as qualified exams to service that function without NCARB having to administer two exams.
This just comes down to NCARB and AIBD/NCBDC working together is a memorandum of agreement. If other exams similar to NCBDC certification (which is in the processes of ANSI accreditation) is developed and becomes ANSI accredited, it would be something NCARB can accept and approve upon rule of NCARB.
This way, certifications in an acceptable building design/architecture related certification and documenting acceptable education/experience for AIT status would be something I think can be achieved if the parties worked together.
An AIT fundamental exam would be entirely new so why completely reinvent the wheel.
NCBDC certification exam can serve the basic function of such an exam as one or one or more qualified certification exams serving this 'fundamental exam' role in that intermediary level.
Just a thought, there. Ultimately for licensure would require meeting a minimum experience, passing ARE and education (or experience depending on path of licensure).
This would be something if we do, we have to be open to think creatively.
Jul 13, 15 4:54 pm
KJDT,
You are required to be licensed to PRACTICE ARCHITECTURE and being NCARB Certified expedites reciprocity. The law simply is to imply that they recognize you are licensed to practice in another state and essentially is an exemption from being fined by simply saying you are licensed as an architect in another state and recognize authorizing you to secure a project in order such as a retainer fee (which you can use to pay for the cost of reciprocity) but generally the rule is you must get licensed before you perform the services you offered.
It simply saying it is okay to accept a project that is located where you are not licensed so you don't have to wait 2-3 months or more for reciprocity process to finalize so you can respond to the client with an okay with a notice that you can not perform services until you complete reciprocity unless you have someone on staff that is licensed that can service them until you complete reciprocity.
Nothing magical about it. NCARB certification isn't necessarily required for that. It does help speed up reciprocity when you can have a Blue cover transmitted to them.
kjdt
Jul 13, 15 5:07 pm
Richard, in several of those states an NCARB-certified person is allowed to refer to themselves as an architect for purposes of soliciting work, while a non-certified person is not. It's not magcial, it's just the regulations in many states (because an NCARB certificate guarantees that the architect meets the same or more stringent licensing requirements as that state requires, whereas someone without the certificate may or may not meet their requirements.)
Good_Knight
Jul 13, 15 5:23 pm
Richard, I don't read your posts. A sincere thanks anyways. The End.
Good_Knight
Jul 13, 15 5:48 pm
"...so long as you work in a firm you can do anything an architect does besides stamp drawing..."
except practice architecture. You're right though, playing pretend architect for all the real architects is legit. Still, not an architect is not an architect.
Jul 13, 15 6:17 pm
kjdt,
It depends precisely how the statutes are written. In many states, if you are licensed in a state, you can call yourself an architect with a reference to where you are an architect. Such as saying "I am an architect licensed in Colorado". There is specific state rules that may apply that you have to follow when indicating how you can use the architect title prior to processing reciprocity. Having an NCARB certification is not the same has having a license in every state. You have to fill out the registration form, transmit your NCARB 'blue cover' records to the state and send the money with the registration form. Once you receive your license, then you can begin practice of architecture.
Since we are at this stage saying mostly the same thing except nuance issues, I think we got that covered.
Jul 13, 15 6:17 pm
Good_Knight,
Yes you do.
Don't lie.
kjdt
Jul 13, 15 8:01 pm
We're still not talking about the same thing Richard.
For at least the third time: I'm not saying that having an NCARB certificate is the same thing as having a license in any particular state. What I'm saying, again, is that there are several states in which an NCARB certificate allows an architect licensed in another state to solicit work, and in some cases get a "temporary permit" or "endorsement of out of state license" that allows the limited practice of architecture in that state without going through the state's license process. While an architect who is licensed in another state but does not have an NCARB certificate is NOT allowed to do that in the same state. Essentially the NCARB certified architect is allowed to practice with a guest pass, usually with a much lower fee than getting a full license in the state.
Your understanding of licensing laws and regulations seems largely drawn from Oregon and Washington, and from NCARB's little charts. But NCARB's charts are notoriously incomplete, out of date, and fail to note many particulars. And Oregon and Washington differ substantially from many other states.
Why can't you let people who have actually made it through licensing and reciprocity, and who have experience in architecture firms answer questions related to those topics?
Jul 13, 15 9:09 pm
Yes, yes... temporary permit or authorization. I've seen them being mention a number of times from state to state. Most of them I seen simply requires you are licensed but if the individually made decisions in the past 5 years to require NCARB certificate, ok. There is 54 jurisdictions to keep track of. Only time it matters to even bother to check is within 6 months of actually doing so. Yes, I would be most familiar with Oregon and Washington and that is also what 90% of architects who even do reciprocity would do.... one or two states because very few are licensed in more than 2 or 3 states in the western part of the U.S. because there is alot of mileage you have to do. In several of the Northeastern U.S. where states are the size of average county sizes in Oregon, Washington, California, or other western states, it's a few drive to travel from state to state.
It isn't like we can travel to 5+ states within 3 to 5 hour drives on the west coast.
Generally speaking, one of these temporary permit to solicit is basically a "temporary license". You still have to file for it. It isn't automatic.
I know the NCARB's little chart but I have read the licensing laws of just about all 50 states. However, I don't read them every single day.
If you know from my posts, you know damn well that I read the laws and literally been to the website of the licensing boards and quoted the states of these licensing boards a number of times. Colorado, Arizona, California, Oregon, Washington, Florida, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Idaho, Oklahoma and several others. The only ones I keep regularly memorized is Oregon and Washington because effect my day to day operation. Here, I see Oregon and Washington EVERY SINGLE DAY unless the whole day was a very very foggy day.
I'm within 5 miles of drive to Washington state land. I would be within 3.5 to 4 miles to drive to Washington state border.
I don't look at NCARB's little charts that often because they are incomplete especially on alternate paths to licensure. As for being out of date, usually not much unless the state is failing to give updates to NCARB on a regular basis. Usually once or twice a year. Aside from incompleteness, the NCARB is generally up to date with exception to what legislative or administrative changes in a particular state that transpired within the last year or two (two is about at most). Usually they are fairly up to date to what happens except maybe changes less than a year old because NCARB member boards are required to update NCARB on changes in that member board's states that affects architectural practice, title, and licensing every year.
Yes, the little charts won't explain in detail about things like alternate path to licensure or anything else.
I have no reason to keep up to date personally about what happens in New Hamphire or Vermont... for example on a day to day basis.
The question and point is about difference between Project Architect and Project Designer. My point is unless you are duly licensed or otherwise authorized to practice architecture in a state, you should not use the architect title and position titles should only be used properly within context of where you are licensed.
I am using common general policy in all states. Since every state as a general policy requires licensure to practice as an architect aside from these temporary permits.
Okay, since your response is originally in response to Good Knight's response. Oh wait, isn't he a licensed architect? Seems to blow the theory you have there.
I do agree with him that Project Architect title shall only be used by licensed Architects and ONLY where they are licensed or otherwise authorized to use the architect title.
Jul 13, 15 10:07 pm
kjdt:
Sorry my response is a little harsh. Just because an architect has got licensed or they have had reciprocity, alot of architects are in themselves outdated. Yes, there are states with some exceptions to the general rule. There is no universality in the notion of limited temporary permit to practice as those are not even part of NCARB model law which all the licensing boards had been to varying degree modeling their laws and regulations after.
Temporary permits or certificate of authorizations or whatever the f--- it is decided to be called in a particular state, is temporary and originally those laws were less about NCARB certificate as much as holding a license in active good standing. When and why certain states pushed for the permit to solicit services to have to be NCARB certified is probably more about "protectionism" and elementary school mentality of turf wars. Sounds more like belligerent protection of the state from out of state architects than it is about a rational protection of public health, safety and welfare.
Without specific state context, it is only rational to discuss things to the degree of general commonality of the legal frameworks that defines a norm between all states as a general collective or substantially all states. In which case, you basically have the NCARB model law which began by taking a common framework from previously established licensing laws and then when NCARB decides to make a national movement of change, they put it in the model law so it facilitates legislative movements to adopt amendments including administrative rule changes because it doesn't have to totally figured out.
So they become a general basis for discussing general requirements at that resolution. Every state can be said to have variation and alterations or deviations from the model law to varying extent and should be assumed on a specific state by state basis.
Oregon and Washington is basically NCARB model law driven as is Arizona, and virtually all the states where 90% of legislative amendments and administrative rule changes have been based on NCARB model law with occassional changes. This is because of NCARB being the national fleet admiral in which ever direction he/she commands, the fleet follows. This has been a characteristic o licensing boards have had as a general trend. Yes, each board may have short term bucking but they essentially have this 'religious belief' to NCARB and follow NCARB.
When it all comes down to it, it all relates to who may use the architect title and who may not and the topical question of what's the difference between project architect and project designer. I believe the answer that practice in the past have been inconsistent including the matter of having a license or not.
We need to keep greater coherence in job position title compliance with licensing laws. This means, project architect should be used ONLY when the person who is functioning as project architect is licensed or otherwise authorized/registered/etc. to use the architect title and practice as an architect where the project is located.
Project designer is appropriate for anyone especially unlicensed design staff.
kjdt
Jul 13, 15 10:35 pm
Way too long to read Richard.
Stick with experiences you've actually had, not read about.
Aluminate
Jul 13, 15 10:54 pm
Sometimes Project Designer is somebody a year out of college. In another firm they use Project Designer to mean the partner involved with the project. Usually you can tell more from the job description or by looking at the firm's website at the staff and their titles, or searching for their employees on linkedin. Regarding NCARB and their little charts don't believe anything in those. There is information in NCARB's chart for my state that's been wrong for years and there are board minutes documenting that the board has sent corrections to NCARB more than once. Every time I called them during my licensing process I also told them their information was wrong, and they always promised to investigate that, and of course you know how that went because it's more than 10 years later and it's still wrong.
Jul 14, 15 12:49 am
Hmm... interesting. Who the hell would take second hand information over first hand source?
Jul 14, 15 1:20 am
kjdt:
Law are text. Go to each state licensing board. From there, you will have link to statutes and the board's rules.
There is also proposed legislations and rule changes sections, too!
What is written is how it is to be enforced. People employed are administer and enforce laws as they are written. No exception to how it is written.
Jul 14, 15 1:23 am
kjdt,
Don't give me bullshit about posts too long to read.
You've read longer posts by me and others just fine.
mehmetic
Jul 14, 15 4:06 am
After all this, I think Roberto may have decided to stay in Spain.
Jul 14, 15 4:36 am
Not sure if the person be from Spain.... could be any Spanish speaking country.
Brud-G
Jul 14, 15 8:58 am
So when I go to Vegas and the dancers at the strip club ask me what I do for a living and I tell them that I'm an architect, I've been lying to them? Since I'm not licenced in Nevada, I can't call myself an architect while I'm in Nevada? I've been lying to the strippers? I feel bad.
Non Sequitur
Jul 14, 15 9:14 am
Brud, I'm guilty of that too. Someone should do something about this.
Jul 14, 15 12:28 pm
Brud-G,
When you are not licensed in Nevada but licensed somewhere, just say you are a licensed architect in ______________ (fill in the blank with what state you are licensed in). Soliciting for services often begins in the informal social settings. You could be soliciting architectural services even when having a lap dance. Who knows, the dancers may ask you to design a house for them or some other project.
Soliciting happens anywhere and at any time when you represent yourself as an architect and when you market your services (which is when you tell people what you do with any pursuasion). Marketing is making awareness of your business. Public Relations is part of marketing and when you are in conversation with non-Architect/Designers/Engineers... etc. about who you are occupationally (yes, when it comes to sole-proprietorships, you and your business is the same. Discussing yourself and your occupation is PR and is marketing in that context. We all know very well that firms and individual architects solicits for services in any form of social or public interactions. A huge portion of small projects are solicited and procured through informal social interaction not through formal interviews of bidders for services. The rest of small projects not procured by informal social interviews is procured because a client called, mailed or emailed you when looking you up in directory or similar offline or online platforms that does the same thing.
Jul 14, 15 12:32 pm
Bottom line:
Be clear, forthright and candid. Do not represent yourself in a manner where it is reasonable that someone may assume you are licensed in the state you are physically at.
People will naturally assume you are talking about being a licensed architect in the area you are at unless you set the context clearly and make clear. Otherwise, you could be misrepresenting yourself as a licensed architect and potentially soliciting for architectural services aside from soliciting for something else.
JeromeS
Jul 14, 15 2:07 pm
^^clear & forthright? Is that what AIA Assoc. is?
shellarchitect
Jul 14, 15 2:10 pm
don't strippers try to avoid talking about "soliciting?"
Jul 14, 15 2:56 pm
Shuellmi: It isn't about talking about soliciting but soliciting is when someone markets, offer, promotes goods or services.
JeromeS: It's Associate AIA or Assoc. AIA not AIA Assoc. or AIA Associate. Being a member of AIA doesn't necessarily mean you are an Architect. It means you are a member of an association that represents architects, architecture field, the profession of architecture and has memberships in various categories. There are allied members which are members who are neither Architects or those aspiring to become architect in which they would qualify as an Associate AIA member. You have a variety of membership types. So, what's your point?
x-jla
Jul 14, 15 2:57 pm
Do stripper stages need to be ADA?
shellarchitect
Jul 14, 15 3:20 pm
yes, however "soliciting" is usually used in regards to prostitution
mehmetic
Jul 14, 15 3:35 pm
Thanks Richard! I thought you might bring up that point, I'm happy that you did. It shows just how literal you must be around registered architects who are defending the term "architect." Clearly Roberto1 could be from a number of countries, he could even be from Japan and have parents from a Spanish speaking country. The point was: you have turned this thread about a simple question from a genuinely interested party into another one of those "registered architect" lessons.
If you are going to give lessons to everyone on here about things tangentially related to the original poster's question, let me give you a lesson in forum etiquette: don't engage in arguments that don't help answer the original question, instead, write a blog post about it and make a link to it in one of your comments.
Meanwhile, I refer to myself as an architect in every country but the U.S. :) Here I like to use the term Space-man.
Jul 14, 15 3:46 pm
shuellmi,
Do not assume I am going to be going by contextual connotations when I use words. Soliciting does not explicitly refer to prostitution. I'm trying to stay above the gutter standards that some of you guys jump next deep into.
Sometimes you guys worry far too much about social context of the fad of the day than you should be. Grow up teenagers. I am aware of the context but we are professionals and I rather not deviate the discussion about prostitution. Okay?
Look at soliciting in the sense of a salesman like the door to door salesman or other closely related persuading or enticing people to commission your services as an architect. In part, you are a salesman of your own business and potentially at any social occassion or point where you engage the public be it a another person outside your household.
Hence... my point.
I'm not talking about soliciting a stripper to have sex for a certain amount of money. I'm not talking. Okay?
Jul 14, 15 3:58 pm
mehmetic,
Sorry and some how this got into a stripper discussion.
Anyway, you can refer to yourself as an architect as far as I am concerned but be clear you are clear about where you are an architect. Do not represent or solicit (offer services as an architect) services as an architect unless you are authorized or the project is located in a place you are authorized to practice and offer architectural services.
As for the OP's question, it has been answered.
There is no consistent definition or distinction between a position title called "Project Architect" or "Project Designer" and what the person does. That varies from place to place.
However, I added a point where there should be consistency in that titles consisting of the word 'architect', the employer should only be issued to employees licensed as architect. Those who are not with essentially the same duty would use the word designer instead of architect for example. Just an appropriate alternate title that is appropriate to the primary role of that position. All positions may have occassional peripheral roles or function as needed. There is however a primary role.
mehmetic
Jul 14, 15 6:22 pm
Ugh. I'm going to eat my own advice and really get into it now.. damn the democracy of internet forums!
Here are the two key problems: 1/2 the registered architects care about the protection of the term, and 1/2 don't. The proof is in the pudding: There are dozens of respectable firms on Archinect that have job postings for "XYZ Architect" that have descriptions that at times specifically state "licensure is preferred but not required" or "0-5 years experience" - how can you then have a job posting using the term "architect" if you value the term?
Meanwhile, 90% of kids starting on the path to the profession through education, have no idea about the requirements of licensure for using the title. They end up committing to a serious degree of study, and leave with an existential crisis on their hands. They don't know what to tell their peers that they do. "I am a designer" undervalues their breadth of knowledge; especially when in a state like California, they can legally design and get permits for a exempted buildings much like ANYONE in the state can... It would do WONDERS for the built environment if young unlicensed architects were able to offer their "design" services to people looking for advice on their new home, preventing home-owners from buying their houses from a blueprint catalogue.
but, BLAH BLAH BLAH. This conversation has been beaten to death in this and other forums for years. "Architects" are shooting everyone in the foot in the name of "protection of the public well-being" -which is of course a fallacy- nobody without signature authority and a stamp gets a building permit on any non-exempted structure that puts the public well-being at risk; no *designer is going to pull one over on any client in that regards / and if they do, they're doing so with the explicit assistance of a unethical licensed individual who is stamping and signing those drawings without the clients knowledge: which can be done regardless of what title the *designer puts forth to the clients.
ALL THAT ASIDE, Richard, I do appreciate your about section on your archinect profile, it is a legally appropriate way to define your ability to provide client facing work; but your average client is going to read that as "Richard is an Architect."
Space-man
x-jla
Jul 14, 15 6:43 pm
^ well said...
Jul 14, 15 6:48 pm
I hear ya. I know, I have been in the front line of this for years. I been 'shot' at (metaphorically) so I already know the rough road ahead in loosening up the title especially when we just barely leaving a long recession and possible to re-dip into another one in a couple years or so. Given the cyclical rhythm of recessions in the business. We need to substantially grow and improve economy a bit more given the supply/demand ratio and many architects who are licensed are frustrated by being undercutting by unlicensed folks who offers services at unsustainably low rates with zero understanding of business, liability and so forth. Just a food for thought, there.
This isn't pointing at all building designers but as one, the market pressures us to be cheaper to get the job and we need the job to pay the bills as everyone else does. We need more projects.
I know that even after telling a client multiple times I am a building designer not a licensed architect, they still seem to need to be regularly reminded. Go figure.
Giovanni Ramirez
Dec 17, 15 11:53 am
We are all poor, regardless of licensure or not, LOL
Hi everyone! I am moving the the States the next month and I am already looking for jobs. I wanted to ask you the differences between Project Architect and Project Designer. I have 5 years of experience as architect in different fields, designing the whole project, but I don't really know what position i should apply.
Also I don't know if because I am not from here, I haven't worked with your codes before, my mother tongue is spanish... I should apply as a intern first... How much are interns normally get paid?
Thank you very much in advance!!!
If you are not registered/ licensed in at least 1 state you are not an Architect in the states. Period. Therefore you are not in possession of 5 years of experience as architect if you are even wondering if you should be applying as an intern.
Intern. You should never refer to yourself as Project Architect.
Project Designer, yes. There are plenty of wanna be architects hiding behind this title.
depends a bit of the firm....
project architect is almost always licensed and generally responsible for the technical documents.
project designer MAY be licensed and responsible for the appearance of the building.
you're prob somewhere in the Intern 2-3 area, I don't know what pay in Seattle is like, guestimating 40-60k.
Pay can vary quite a bit, both by area of the country and size of the firm.
"Intern" is no longer a thing...Knight, technically you are only an architect in the state that you are licensed in...if you travel to Florida you are no longer an architect...
Licensing laws, you crazy.
Good point jla. Thanks for pointing this out.
Link to the position NCARB is taking presently on the title "intern"
http://www.ncarb.org/News-and-Events/News/2015/May-InternTitle.aspx
"“Architects are those who have met all the requirements to become licensed in states and jurisdictions throughout the United States,” said NCARB President Dale McKinney, FAIA, NCARB. “Everyone else is not an architect. But their status also doesn’t need a regulatory title such as ‘intern’ or any similar reference. This has become a term that has been perceived as negative by many in the architecture community and a term that really does not fully value the work that aspiring architects bring to the profession.”
Personally, I agree that the term intern is derogatory to those unlicensed architectural school graduates with years of experience and excellent professional work histories.
I think in the long run this bodes well for the profession -for both architects and unlicensed architectural school graduates.
Thanks everyone for your answers! Just a thing, between Intern and Project Designers, what is the difference? Do one have more experience than the other? Thanks again guys!
"interns" (gawd I hate this title) are CAD jockeys and office minions who generally do everything per whatever is expedient at the moment.
"project designers" focus on the design up front aka schematic design, in my experience.
you have to either have some connections straight out of school or have several years of proven talent to be a project designer in my opinion. These days, though, with title inflation, I keep seeing "project designer" and "project manager" being used rather loosely: even to describe very fresh architectural school graduates without any necessarily extraordinary demonstrable experience or talent.
I prefer the term drafter for those that never intend to get their license. Its more honest for everybody.
For those that are sincerely working towards licensure after graduation from an accredited professional school, the title "architect in residence" or "resident architect" seems most fitting.
For what its worth I think the profession would do itself a huge favor if it were to come up with an "A.I.T." examination for those intent on becoming licensed professionals aka architects. Similar to the "E.I.T." engineers already have.
What this would do is once again get those on the path towards licensure out of the role of drafter and on the fast track to architect.
Right now the profession is very inefficient in that it uses smart professional minds to do too much stupid linear production work aka drafting.
It would be like doctors having to fulfill the duties of nurses and nurses fulfilling the professional shoes of doctors.
NCARB and the AIA are completely foolish in this regard.
The professional bodies are composed of a strange mix of egos, ignorance., and incompetence.
It's not 100% true that you're only an architect in the state in which you're licensed. If you're NCARB-Certified there are more than 20 states in which you're allowed to call yourself an architect for the purpose of pursuing projects in those states, before you're licensed in them. In almost all of them you need to become licensed in the state before you can sign a contract. There are a few exceptions even to that - a few states allow a limited endorsement of another state's license on a per-project basis.
"Project Architect" and "Project Designer" have varying meanings from firm to firm. In some both are senior-level positions. In others "Project Designer" can be nearly entry-level, and "Project Architect" can be a mid-level coordination architect who might be called "Job Captain" in another firm.
I know plenty of non-licensed people who do far more than "draft"...many who are senior level "project architects"...so long as you work in a firm you can do anything an architect does besides stamp drawings...stamping is pretty irrelevant for architects (licensed or not) who work at a national or international level or in a large firm...
Good_Knight,
I have to say that 'resident architect' could technically be problematic in some states that requires residency for licensure in that it means, they license to those with residence (office) in the state.
"Residency" refers to clinical residency in most fields.... ie. hospitals and clinics. We are not clinics and hospitals.
Regarding term drafter. That term doesn't matter if you are on or not on licensing path. Drafting does qualify of IDP so you are on licensure path once you are enrolled in college, or enrolled in IDP. We can't say whether or not they ever intend to get licensed. We can't be so judgmental and writing these people off just because they aren't moving through licensing path as fast.
How can we judge 'sincere'? It is none of our business to judge that. Personally and objectively, 'architect' is a protected title reserved for those who are licensed. Those who are not are drafters, designers, managers but not architects. If we deregulate architect title then we have to deregulate for all because even professional building designers could be on license track whenever they earn experience under an architect for experience path to licensure.
We have those pathways to licensure so why shouldn't we think a little more than those with a NAAB accredited degree.
In regards to AIT exam, why reinvent the wheel. Use the AIBD/NCBDC CPBD exam.
In that case, every AIT would be a CPBD but use of AIT would be limited to use indicating status level in licensure path.
Who cares if CPBD is currently of limited use but just a record of passing it and good standing upon filing for AIT status. Use of CPBD title would contend on maintaining the CPBD certification renewal. If you let it lapse after attaining AIT, you can use AIT for its qualified use but lose authorization to use CPBD title and initials per AIBD/NCBDC rules.
We can recognize a professional certification as qualified exams to service that function without NCARB having to administer two exams.
This just comes down to NCARB and AIBD/NCBDC working together is a memorandum of agreement. If other exams similar to NCBDC certification (which is in the processes of ANSI accreditation) is developed and becomes ANSI accredited, it would be something NCARB can accept and approve upon rule of NCARB.
This way, certifications in an acceptable building design/architecture related certification and documenting acceptable education/experience for AIT status would be something I think can be achieved if the parties worked together.
An AIT fundamental exam would be entirely new so why completely reinvent the wheel.
NCBDC certification exam can serve the basic function of such an exam as one or one or more qualified certification exams serving this 'fundamental exam' role in that intermediary level.
Just a thought, there. Ultimately for licensure would require meeting a minimum experience, passing ARE and education (or experience depending on path of licensure).
This would be something if we do, we have to be open to think creatively.
KJDT,
You are required to be licensed to PRACTICE ARCHITECTURE and being NCARB Certified expedites reciprocity. The law simply is to imply that they recognize you are licensed to practice in another state and essentially is an exemption from being fined by simply saying you are licensed as an architect in another state and recognize authorizing you to secure a project in order such as a retainer fee (which you can use to pay for the cost of reciprocity) but generally the rule is you must get licensed before you perform the services you offered.
It simply saying it is okay to accept a project that is located where you are not licensed so you don't have to wait 2-3 months or more for reciprocity process to finalize so you can respond to the client with an okay with a notice that you can not perform services until you complete reciprocity unless you have someone on staff that is licensed that can service them until you complete reciprocity.
Nothing magical about it. NCARB certification isn't necessarily required for that. It does help speed up reciprocity when you can have a Blue cover transmitted to them.
Richard, in several of those states an NCARB-certified person is allowed to refer to themselves as an architect for purposes of soliciting work, while a non-certified person is not. It's not magcial, it's just the regulations in many states (because an NCARB certificate guarantees that the architect meets the same or more stringent licensing requirements as that state requires, whereas someone without the certificate may or may not meet their requirements.)
Richard, I don't read your posts. A sincere thanks anyways. The End.
"...so long as you work in a firm you can do anything an architect does besides stamp drawing..."
except practice architecture. You're right though, playing pretend architect for all the real architects is legit. Still, not an architect is not an architect.
kjdt,
It depends precisely how the statutes are written. In many states, if you are licensed in a state, you can call yourself an architect with a reference to where you are an architect. Such as saying "I am an architect licensed in Colorado". There is specific state rules that may apply that you have to follow when indicating how you can use the architect title prior to processing reciprocity. Having an NCARB certification is not the same has having a license in every state. You have to fill out the registration form, transmit your NCARB 'blue cover' records to the state and send the money with the registration form. Once you receive your license, then you can begin practice of architecture.
Since we are at this stage saying mostly the same thing except nuance issues, I think we got that covered.
Good_Knight,
Yes you do.
Don't lie.
We're still not talking about the same thing Richard.
For at least the third time: I'm not saying that having an NCARB certificate is the same thing as having a license in any particular state. What I'm saying, again, is that there are several states in which an NCARB certificate allows an architect licensed in another state to solicit work, and in some cases get a "temporary permit" or "endorsement of out of state license" that allows the limited practice of architecture in that state without going through the state's license process. While an architect who is licensed in another state but does not have an NCARB certificate is NOT allowed to do that in the same state. Essentially the NCARB certified architect is allowed to practice with a guest pass, usually with a much lower fee than getting a full license in the state.
Your understanding of licensing laws and regulations seems largely drawn from Oregon and Washington, and from NCARB's little charts. But NCARB's charts are notoriously incomplete, out of date, and fail to note many particulars. And Oregon and Washington differ substantially from many other states.
Why can't you let people who have actually made it through licensing and reciprocity, and who have experience in architecture firms answer questions related to those topics?
Yes, yes... temporary permit or authorization. I've seen them being mention a number of times from state to state. Most of them I seen simply requires you are licensed but if the individually made decisions in the past 5 years to require NCARB certificate, ok. There is 54 jurisdictions to keep track of. Only time it matters to even bother to check is within 6 months of actually doing so. Yes, I would be most familiar with Oregon and Washington and that is also what 90% of architects who even do reciprocity would do.... one or two states because very few are licensed in more than 2 or 3 states in the western part of the U.S. because there is alot of mileage you have to do. In several of the Northeastern U.S. where states are the size of average county sizes in Oregon, Washington, California, or other western states, it's a few drive to travel from state to state.
It isn't like we can travel to 5+ states within 3 to 5 hour drives on the west coast.
Generally speaking, one of these temporary permit to solicit is basically a "temporary license". You still have to file for it. It isn't automatic.
I know the NCARB's little chart but I have read the licensing laws of just about all 50 states. However, I don't read them every single day.
If you know from my posts, you know damn well that I read the laws and literally been to the website of the licensing boards and quoted the states of these licensing boards a number of times. Colorado, Arizona, California, Oregon, Washington, Florida, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Idaho, Oklahoma and several others. The only ones I keep regularly memorized is Oregon and Washington because effect my day to day operation. Here, I see Oregon and Washington EVERY SINGLE DAY unless the whole day was a very very foggy day.
I'm within 5 miles of drive to Washington state land. I would be within 3.5 to 4 miles to drive to Washington state border.
I don't look at NCARB's little charts that often because they are incomplete especially on alternate paths to licensure. As for being out of date, usually not much unless the state is failing to give updates to NCARB on a regular basis. Usually once or twice a year. Aside from incompleteness, the NCARB is generally up to date with exception to what legislative or administrative changes in a particular state that transpired within the last year or two (two is about at most). Usually they are fairly up to date to what happens except maybe changes less than a year old because NCARB member boards are required to update NCARB on changes in that member board's states that affects architectural practice, title, and licensing every year.
Yes, the little charts won't explain in detail about things like alternate path to licensure or anything else.
I have no reason to keep up to date personally about what happens in New Hamphire or Vermont... for example on a day to day basis.
The question and point is about difference between Project Architect and Project Designer. My point is unless you are duly licensed or otherwise authorized to practice architecture in a state, you should not use the architect title and position titles should only be used properly within context of where you are licensed.
I am using common general policy in all states. Since every state as a general policy requires licensure to practice as an architect aside from these temporary permits.
Okay, since your response is originally in response to Good Knight's response. Oh wait, isn't he a licensed architect? Seems to blow the theory you have there.
I do agree with him that Project Architect title shall only be used by licensed Architects and ONLY where they are licensed or otherwise authorized to use the architect title.
kjdt:
Sorry my response is a little harsh. Just because an architect has got licensed or they have had reciprocity, alot of architects are in themselves outdated. Yes, there are states with some exceptions to the general rule. There is no universality in the notion of limited temporary permit to practice as those are not even part of NCARB model law which all the licensing boards had been to varying degree modeling their laws and regulations after.
Temporary permits or certificate of authorizations or whatever the f--- it is decided to be called in a particular state, is temporary and originally those laws were less about NCARB certificate as much as holding a license in active good standing. When and why certain states pushed for the permit to solicit services to have to be NCARB certified is probably more about "protectionism" and elementary school mentality of turf wars. Sounds more like belligerent protection of the state from out of state architects than it is about a rational protection of public health, safety and welfare.
Without specific state context, it is only rational to discuss things to the degree of general commonality of the legal frameworks that defines a norm between all states as a general collective or substantially all states. In which case, you basically have the NCARB model law which began by taking a common framework from previously established licensing laws and then when NCARB decides to make a national movement of change, they put it in the model law so it facilitates legislative movements to adopt amendments including administrative rule changes because it doesn't have to totally figured out.
So they become a general basis for discussing general requirements at that resolution. Every state can be said to have variation and alterations or deviations from the model law to varying extent and should be assumed on a specific state by state basis.
Oregon and Washington is basically NCARB model law driven as is Arizona, and virtually all the states where 90% of legislative amendments and administrative rule changes have been based on NCARB model law with occassional changes. This is because of NCARB being the national fleet admiral in which ever direction he/she commands, the fleet follows. This has been a characteristic o licensing boards have had as a general trend. Yes, each board may have short term bucking but they essentially have this 'religious belief' to NCARB and follow NCARB.
When it all comes down to it, it all relates to who may use the architect title and who may not and the topical question of what's the difference between project architect and project designer. I believe the answer that practice in the past have been inconsistent including the matter of having a license or not.
We need to keep greater coherence in job position title compliance with licensing laws. This means, project architect should be used ONLY when the person who is functioning as project architect is licensed or otherwise authorized/registered/etc. to use the architect title and practice as an architect where the project is located.
Project designer is appropriate for anyone especially unlicensed design staff.
Way too long to read Richard.
Stick with experiences you've actually had, not read about.
Sometimes Project Designer is somebody a year out of college. In another firm they use Project Designer to mean the partner involved with the project. Usually you can tell more from the job description or by looking at the firm's website at the staff and their titles, or searching for their employees on linkedin. Regarding NCARB and their little charts don't believe anything in those. There is information in NCARB's chart for my state that's been wrong for years and there are board minutes documenting that the board has sent corrections to NCARB more than once. Every time I called them during my licensing process I also told them their information was wrong, and they always promised to investigate that, and of course you know how that went because it's more than 10 years later and it's still wrong.
Hmm... interesting. Who the hell would take second hand information over first hand source?
kjdt:
Law are text. Go to each state licensing board. From there, you will have link to statutes and the board's rules.
There is also proposed legislations and rule changes sections, too!
What is written is how it is to be enforced. People employed are administer and enforce laws as they are written. No exception to how it is written.
kjdt,
Don't give me bullshit about posts too long to read.
You've read longer posts by me and others just fine.
After all this, I think Roberto may have decided to stay in Spain.
Not sure if the person be from Spain.... could be any Spanish speaking country.
So when I go to Vegas and the dancers at the strip club ask me what I do for a living and I tell them that I'm an architect, I've been lying to them? Since I'm not licenced in Nevada, I can't call myself an architect while I'm in Nevada? I've been lying to the strippers? I feel bad.
Brud, I'm guilty of that too. Someone should do something about this.
Brud-G,
When you are not licensed in Nevada but licensed somewhere, just say you are a licensed architect in ______________ (fill in the blank with what state you are licensed in). Soliciting for services often begins in the informal social settings. You could be soliciting architectural services even when having a lap dance. Who knows, the dancers may ask you to design a house for them or some other project.
Soliciting happens anywhere and at any time when you represent yourself as an architect and when you market your services (which is when you tell people what you do with any pursuasion). Marketing is making awareness of your business. Public Relations is part of marketing and when you are in conversation with non-Architect/Designers/Engineers... etc. about who you are occupationally (yes, when it comes to sole-proprietorships, you and your business is the same. Discussing yourself and your occupation is PR and is marketing in that context. We all know very well that firms and individual architects solicits for services in any form of social or public interactions. A huge portion of small projects are solicited and procured through informal social interaction not through formal interviews of bidders for services. The rest of small projects not procured by informal social interviews is procured because a client called, mailed or emailed you when looking you up in directory or similar offline or online platforms that does the same thing.
Bottom line:
Be clear, forthright and candid. Do not represent yourself in a manner where it is reasonable that someone may assume you are licensed in the state you are physically at.
People will naturally assume you are talking about being a licensed architect in the area you are at unless you set the context clearly and make clear. Otherwise, you could be misrepresenting yourself as a licensed architect and potentially soliciting for architectural services aside from soliciting for something else.
^^clear & forthright? Is that what AIA Assoc. is?
don't strippers try to avoid talking about "soliciting?"
Shuellmi: It isn't about talking about soliciting but soliciting is when someone markets, offer, promotes goods or services.
JeromeS: It's Associate AIA or Assoc. AIA not AIA Assoc. or AIA Associate. Being a member of AIA doesn't necessarily mean you are an Architect. It means you are a member of an association that represents architects, architecture field, the profession of architecture and has memberships in various categories. There are allied members which are members who are neither Architects or those aspiring to become architect in which they would qualify as an Associate AIA member. You have a variety of membership types. So, what's your point?
Do stripper stages need to be ADA?
yes, however "soliciting" is usually used in regards to prostitution
Thanks Richard! I thought you might bring up that point, I'm happy that you did. It shows just how literal you must be around registered architects who are defending the term "architect." Clearly Roberto1 could be from a number of countries, he could even be from Japan and have parents from a Spanish speaking country. The point was: you have turned this thread about a simple question from a genuinely interested party into another one of those "registered architect" lessons.
If you are going to give lessons to everyone on here about things tangentially related to the original poster's question, let me give you a lesson in forum etiquette: don't engage in arguments that don't help answer the original question, instead, write a blog post about it and make a link to it in one of your comments.
Meanwhile, I refer to myself as an architect in every country but the U.S. :) Here I like to use the term Space-man.
shuellmi,
Do not assume I am going to be going by contextual connotations when I use words. Soliciting does not explicitly refer to prostitution. I'm trying to stay above the gutter standards that some of you guys jump next deep into.
Sometimes you guys worry far too much about social context of the fad of the day than you should be. Grow up teenagers. I am aware of the context but we are professionals and I rather not deviate the discussion about prostitution. Okay?
Look at soliciting in the sense of a salesman like the door to door salesman or other closely related persuading or enticing people to commission your services as an architect. In part, you are a salesman of your own business and potentially at any social occassion or point where you engage the public be it a another person outside your household.
Hence... my point.
I'm not talking about soliciting a stripper to have sex for a certain amount of money. I'm not talking. Okay?
mehmetic,
Sorry and some how this got into a stripper discussion.
Anyway, you can refer to yourself as an architect as far as I am concerned but be clear you are clear about where you are an architect. Do not represent or solicit (offer services as an architect) services as an architect unless you are authorized or the project is located in a place you are authorized to practice and offer architectural services.
As for the OP's question, it has been answered.
There is no consistent definition or distinction between a position title called "Project Architect" or "Project Designer" and what the person does. That varies from place to place.
However, I added a point where there should be consistency in that titles consisting of the word 'architect', the employer should only be issued to employees licensed as architect. Those who are not with essentially the same duty would use the word designer instead of architect for example. Just an appropriate alternate title that is appropriate to the primary role of that position. All positions may have occassional peripheral roles or function as needed. There is however a primary role.
Ugh. I'm going to eat my own advice and really get into it now.. damn the democracy of internet forums!
Here are the two key problems: 1/2 the registered architects care about the protection of the term, and 1/2 don't. The proof is in the pudding: There are dozens of respectable firms on Archinect that have job postings for "XYZ Architect" that have descriptions that at times specifically state "licensure is preferred but not required" or "0-5 years experience" - how can you then have a job posting using the term "architect" if you value the term?
Meanwhile, 90% of kids starting on the path to the profession through education, have no idea about the requirements of licensure for using the title. They end up committing to a serious degree of study, and leave with an existential crisis on their hands. They don't know what to tell their peers that they do. "I am a designer" undervalues their breadth of knowledge; especially when in a state like California, they can legally design and get permits for a exempted buildings much like ANYONE in the state can... It would do WONDERS for the built environment if young unlicensed architects were able to offer their "design" services to people looking for advice on their new home, preventing home-owners from buying their houses from a blueprint catalogue.
but, BLAH BLAH BLAH. This conversation has been beaten to death in this and other forums for years. "Architects" are shooting everyone in the foot in the name of "protection of the public well-being" -which is of course a fallacy- nobody without signature authority and a stamp gets a building permit on any non-exempted structure that puts the public well-being at risk; no *designer is going to pull one over on any client in that regards / and if they do, they're doing so with the explicit assistance of a unethical licensed individual who is stamping and signing those drawings without the clients knowledge: which can be done regardless of what title the *designer puts forth to the clients.
ALL THAT ASIDE, Richard, I do appreciate your about section on your archinect profile, it is a legally appropriate way to define your ability to provide client facing work; but your average client is going to read that as "Richard is an Architect."
Space-man
^ well said...
I hear ya. I know, I have been in the front line of this for years. I been 'shot' at (metaphorically) so I already know the rough road ahead in loosening up the title especially when we just barely leaving a long recession and possible to re-dip into another one in a couple years or so. Given the cyclical rhythm of recessions in the business. We need to substantially grow and improve economy a bit more given the supply/demand ratio and many architects who are licensed are frustrated by being undercutting by unlicensed folks who offers services at unsustainably low rates with zero understanding of business, liability and so forth. Just a food for thought, there.
This isn't pointing at all building designers but as one, the market pressures us to be cheaper to get the job and we need the job to pay the bills as everyone else does. We need more projects.
I know that even after telling a client multiple times I am a building designer not a licensed architect, they still seem to need to be regularly reminded. Go figure.
We are all poor, regardless of licensure or not, LOL