am I working, am I drinking, am I being social - all the above...but this problem came to mind...happens to the best of us ;)
Sprinkler head location design and number of heads off a branch line based on rules of thumb is easy....
I could design your warehouse's sprinkler system in 2 hours, 100,000 sqft, no Problem!
but since it's such a serious life safety issue, everyone just backs off and defers a good portion of money to the engineer, who then uses the rules of thumbs and downloads a Hydraulic Calculation program and boom done (see Revit and Sprinklers)
I just spent 10 minutes in NFPA 13 reading up....the formula for coverage is elementary.
* IMAGE ABOVE HAS MASSIVE WARNINGS - HIRE ENGINEER!
Railings are easy right. They protect people from falling to their death. It's a slight structural engineer thing, but something most architects can handle.
When a designer does a railing does anyone back off, does anyone go - HOLY SHIT BATMAN! HIRE AN ARCHITECT, OH WAIT IT'S SERIOUS BATMAN, HIRE AN ENGINEER?
No, everyone goes, oh! - 42" is code and spec that company that claims they can handle the 50 lf or 200lbs point load or whatever it is....google it!
Is it because one item is static and the other dynamic in case of life safety?
Is it because NFPA 13 if 450+ pages and the railing code section is a few paragraphs?
Is it because all you need is a 4" diameter ball equaling the size of a baby's head to determine if some law suit prone American Baby will wriggle through the pickets or newel posts?
WHAT'S WORSE - FALLING TO YOUR DEATH OR BURNING ALIVE?
midlander
May 30, 15 12:59 am
Personally I'd rather fall to death. I think that's common: the stereotypical image of a failed investor is someone who jumps off a building, not someone who commits self-immolation.
When a railing fails, a careless person might die. When a sprinkler system fails, a building full of people might die.
Also, if the owner finds out later that the railing is inadequate, how much will it cost to replace? And if the sprinkler system is inadequate?
But I think for the most part, it's just too much extra work. Not many architects focus on warehouse design. Unlike railings, sprinkler design gets more complicated as the building gets more complex.
awaiting_deletion
May 30, 15 6:41 am
/\ this is true. The hydraulic calcs get more complicated and you have incoming utility services, etc...pressure vs just more railing....
a few additional sprinkler heads though is less than probably a railing replacement or comparable if cheap railing....
let's say $150lf vs say $1,000 a head....
I was railing against sprinklers, ha ;)
and good morning.
at a small scale, like a few rooms or a flat warehouse I think an architect could handle it though.
it's just the panic factor I think is overkill.
Miles Jaffe
May 30, 15 9:07 am
WWI pilots (no parachutes) routinely jumped out of their burning planes.
I'm waiting for changes to the star rail code that eliminate horizontal spaces so that a toddler can't climb to the top and hurl himself over.
Anyone notice the spiral rail at the Guggenheim? It's low, maybe 30", and tilts out.
Bench
May 30, 15 11:30 am
Wait - Miles, that isnt already a restriction? Up here you cannot have any horizontal bars in the grill-portion of the railings for that reason. I distinctly remember that being the very first code issue I ever had to look up at my first job.
I'd like to think that photo above was staged...
JeromeS
May 31, 15 8:18 pm
There is no code requirement that railings do NOT create a ladder effect in the IBC. The old BOCA/CABO did not permit that, but we have moved away from that ...
SneakyPete
Jun 1, 15 12:27 pm
Jerome is correct. We are not in the business of thwarting bad parenting or abject stupidity.
am I working, am I drinking, am I being social - all the above...but this problem came to mind...happens to the best of us ;)
Sprinkler head location design and number of heads off a branch line based on rules of thumb is easy....
I could design your warehouse's sprinkler system in 2 hours, 100,000 sqft, no Problem!
but since it's such a serious life safety issue, everyone just backs off and defers a good portion of money to the engineer, who then uses the rules of thumbs and downloads a Hydraulic Calculation program and boom done (see Revit and Sprinklers)
I just spent 10 minutes in NFPA 13 reading up....the formula for coverage is elementary.
* IMAGE ABOVE HAS MASSIVE WARNINGS - HIRE ENGINEER!
Railings are easy right. They protect people from falling to their death. It's a slight structural engineer thing, but something most architects can handle.
When a designer does a railing does anyone back off, does anyone go - HOLY SHIT BATMAN! HIRE AN ARCHITECT, OH WAIT IT'S SERIOUS BATMAN, HIRE AN ENGINEER?
No, everyone goes, oh! - 42" is code and spec that company that claims they can handle the 50 lf or 200lbs point load or whatever it is....google it!
Is it because one item is static and the other dynamic in case of life safety?
Is it because NFPA 13 if 450+ pages and the railing code section is a few paragraphs?
Is it because all you need is a 4" diameter ball equaling the size of a baby's head to determine if some law suit prone American Baby will wriggle through the pickets or newel posts?
WHAT'S WORSE - FALLING TO YOUR DEATH OR BURNING ALIVE?
Personally I'd rather fall to death. I think that's common: the stereotypical image of a failed investor is someone who jumps off a building, not someone who commits self-immolation.
When a railing fails, a careless person might die.
When a sprinkler system fails, a building full of people might die.
Also, if the owner finds out later that the railing is inadequate, how much will it cost to replace? And if the sprinkler system is inadequate?
But I think for the most part, it's just too much extra work. Not many architects focus on warehouse design. Unlike railings, sprinkler design gets more complicated as the building gets more complex.
/\ this is true. The hydraulic calcs get more complicated and you have incoming utility services, etc...pressure vs just more railing....
a few additional sprinkler heads though is less than probably a railing replacement or comparable if cheap railing....
let's say $150lf vs say $1,000 a head....
I was railing against sprinklers, ha ;)
and good morning.
at a small scale, like a few rooms or a flat warehouse I think an architect could handle it though.
it's just the panic factor I think is overkill.
WWI pilots (no parachutes) routinely jumped out of their burning planes.
I'm waiting for changes to the star rail code that eliminate horizontal spaces so that a toddler can't climb to the top and hurl himself over.
Anyone notice the spiral rail at the Guggenheim? It's low, maybe 30", and tilts out.
Wait - Miles, that isnt already a restriction? Up here you cannot have any horizontal bars in the grill-portion of the railings for that reason. I distinctly remember that being the very first code issue I ever had to look up at my first job.
I'd like to think that photo above was staged...
There is no code requirement that railings do NOT create a ladder effect in the IBC. The old BOCA/CABO did not permit that, but we have moved away from that ...
Jerome is correct. We are not in the business of thwarting bad parenting or abject stupidity.