I was approached by contractor requesting my cad files I had done for a 4000 sqsft building that his client had just bought. I was paid for this work some time ago by another party. Can I charge this contractor for his request and if so how much can I charge him? I only have the building foot print, and floor plan.
geezertect
May 14, 15 8:44 am
I would not give him CAD files. Maybe plots. As to whether to charge, it is an interesting legal question. Does getting payment result in getting you involved in the liability chain for the prospective remodel? I don't know. I personally would not take the chance since what you will be able to charge will probably be fairly nominal and not worth the exposure. Providing them as a "courtesy" might be worth brownie points sometime in the future and should (I would think) lessen your exposure. I will be interested in what others think.
proto
May 14, 15 11:42 am
i don't think it's a big deal
make him sign a waiver indicating the drawings are not as-builts and that the purchasing party is responsible for determining the actual field conditions
maybe set your price to be half of the time it takes to do as-builts & drafting
&
see if they need design services
Good_Knight
May 14, 15 12:02 pm
Do not furnish your CAD files to anyone except professionals on your contracted design team.
Prints, yes under all circumstances where you are being compensated fairly . But only when you are in receipt of the proper signed waiver(s).
CAD files to a Contractor? never.
x-jla
May 14, 15 12:04 pm
The question is why does he want them? Charging for the plans may imply that he has ownership/permission to use them...However, even just giving them to him may also imply permission...You need to write a contract that limits the use of the plans to what ever you are willing to live with and clarifies that the contractor is not the original client and that the plans are for general reference only and not for construction.
JonathanLivingston
May 14, 15 12:26 pm
I agree. No cad files ever. Provide PDFs. Limit your exposure by having them sign a release and charge a fee for them. If nothing other than to cover the time you send putting things together, asking this question ,and sending them to him, you should be compensated.
Charging or not charging does nothing to actually limit your liability. That's bullshit. You can still be held responsible for your work regardless of what you charge for it so you might as well charge a reasonable fee for your work and time.
archanonymous
May 14, 15 1:11 pm
Could someone elucidate your reasons for not providing CAD/ BIM models to contractors? Is it solely to limit liability?
It seems preposterous to let the efficiency, efficacy, and quality of construction be so impacted by some legal wrangling.
OP, sorry to hijack this. If I have to ask myself, "Should I charge for this?" The answer is always yes, yes I should.
JonathanLivingston
May 14, 15 1:16 pm
My experience with providing cad drawings is that it is too easy for someone to make a change or alter the design and then come back to say that's what was provided. If there was a problem it gets muddy trying to compare cad files of who was right / who changed what.
Think of it this way. The documents you provide to your client are a contract they agree to construct with the contractor or homeowner. Providing them the cad files would be akin to providing them the word document for a written contract. Similar to the word document the cad files are a instrument of service used to create the product that is delivered.
Another example would be back in the day when drawings were done by hand and then the contractor asked for the pen you used to draw with. That way they can make changes easier that blend in with what you provided.
null pointer
May 14, 15 3:42 pm
You charge as much as surveyor would, and make him sign a release stating that you take on no responsibility over whether the drawing represents current conditions.
The end.
null pointer
May 14, 15 3:42 pm
And never share CAD.
Ever.
geezertect
May 14, 15 5:50 pm
archanonymous: it prevents someone from fiddling with drawings that have your name on them. Liability is theoretically greater and the recipient might build another building using your drawings (changing the title block of course) without your being compensated.
Jonathan: my concern with charging is whether it could somehow be construed as a new contract which might restart the statute of limitations. Maybe I'm getting too nervous in my old age, but the OP needs to ask "what's in it for me"? A few bucks of billable time? Is legal exposure worth it? I dunno.
JonathanLivingston
May 14, 15 6:00 pm
Geezertect: I would argue that no liability is extended because you are essentially selling a copy of the drawing. He is also welcome to ask for a copy from the original client. Some might, as shown above, argue that you should not charge for a copy or at least not a lot cause its kind of a dick move. But hey this is capitalism, supply and demand you know? This is one instance you control the whole supply. Charge what you can.
Now if you change the date on the titleblock and put their name on it as your client. Yes you could be exposed to a lot more liability and should charge appropriately.
bowling_ball
May 14, 15 6:25 pm
The way that we deal with this on design-build and CM jobs is to allow our contractor access to our model and/or exported cad files, which we upload to an FTP-like site every friday. These are archived with a date, so if anybody tries any funny stuff, we have our own archived back-ups (stored on our internal network servers) for comparison.
Working this way over the last 6 months has opened my eyes about this. It certainly appears risky most of the time, but it also allows easier and more frequent collaboration on complex or time-sensitive projects.
Having said all of this, it's not my firm so my risk is essentially nil. I might think otherwise if I was an owner....
awaiting_deletion
May 14, 15 8:47 pm
null's first post, which should also alleviate you from any liability even if you gave them CADs............give them without your name or titleblock on them........................I give portions of my CADs out a lot to expedite subs or if the sub is clueless - teach them their own details. i also operate more like a design builder than a licensed architect sometimes, so I am sure I stray from typical guidelines.........................as a funny side note there is this architect in NYC who not only gives out his CADs, his friggin' stamp which is in CAD is included in the titleblock.................a good portion of new crap in Brooklyn is by this man.......same guy, prior to my license, i did some builders paver plan for a developer working with the electrical company and dept. of transportation, just regular old drafting, get a call from this guys office with a frantic project architect "hey did we authorize you to draw the plans?"..........me - "who are you? i work for blahblah?"........PA "we stamped those drawings?"..........me-"so?".........PA -"ok, the client came in and our secretary stamped them! can you send me the CADs"..........me "yeah sure, whatever. i guess i was authorized?"........."yes.".......
..no joke
archanonymous
May 14, 15 10:51 pm
I am just aghast at how outdated the mode of working is. Basically any file format shows date modified and who modified it in properties, and neither of these pieces of metadata are easily tampered with. It should be an open and shut case if a contractor or owner was to try and claim you sent an incorrect file after they tampered with it...
Has anyone actually experienced (1st or 2nd hand) someone getting sued/ taken advantage of after handing over a model or CAD drawing?
etch22
May 15, 15 12:15 am
Thank you all for your insight and support. The reason the contractor is requesting the cad file is be able to save time and hand it over to an architecture firm that will be doing the work. I cannot partake as I am not licensed plus it also would be a conflict of interest with my full time job.
I have also spoken to close colleagues and have also mentioned the liability issues that could come. I agree with having the contractor sign a liability waiver should I decide to release the file.
I am thinking about charging 50% of my initial fee
I was approached by contractor requesting my cad files I had done for a 4000 sqsft building that his client had just bought. I was paid for this work some time ago by another party. Can I charge this contractor for his request and if so how much can I charge him? I only have the building foot print, and floor plan.
I would not give him CAD files. Maybe plots. As to whether to charge, it is an interesting legal question. Does getting payment result in getting you involved in the liability chain for the prospective remodel? I don't know. I personally would not take the chance since what you will be able to charge will probably be fairly nominal and not worth the exposure. Providing them as a "courtesy" might be worth brownie points sometime in the future and should (I would think) lessen your exposure. I will be interested in what others think.
i don't think it's a big deal
make him sign a waiver indicating the drawings are not as-builts and that the purchasing party is responsible for determining the actual field conditions
maybe set your price to be half of the time it takes to do as-builts & drafting
&
see if they need design services
Do not furnish your CAD files to anyone except professionals on your contracted design team.
Prints, yes under all circumstances where you are being compensated fairly . But only when you are in receipt of the proper signed waiver(s).
CAD files to a Contractor? never.
The question is why does he want them? Charging for the plans may imply that he has ownership/permission to use them...However, even just giving them to him may also imply permission...You need to write a contract that limits the use of the plans to what ever you are willing to live with and clarifies that the contractor is not the original client and that the plans are for general reference only and not for construction.
I agree. No cad files ever. Provide PDFs. Limit your exposure by having them sign a release and charge a fee for them. If nothing other than to cover the time you send putting things together, asking this question ,and sending them to him, you should be compensated.
Charging or not charging does nothing to actually limit your liability. That's bullshit. You can still be held responsible for your work regardless of what you charge for it so you might as well charge a reasonable fee for your work and time.
Could someone elucidate your reasons for not providing CAD/ BIM models to contractors? Is it solely to limit liability?
It seems preposterous to let the efficiency, efficacy, and quality of construction be so impacted by some legal wrangling.
OP, sorry to hijack this. If I have to ask myself, "Should I charge for this?" The answer is always yes, yes I should.
My experience with providing cad drawings is that it is too easy for someone to make a change or alter the design and then come back to say that's what was provided. If there was a problem it gets muddy trying to compare cad files of who was right / who changed what.
Think of it this way. The documents you provide to your client are a contract they agree to construct with the contractor or homeowner. Providing them the cad files would be akin to providing them the word document for a written contract. Similar to the word document the cad files are a instrument of service used to create the product that is delivered.
Another example would be back in the day when drawings were done by hand and then the contractor asked for the pen you used to draw with. That way they can make changes easier that blend in with what you provided.
You charge as much as surveyor would, and make him sign a release stating that you take on no responsibility over whether the drawing represents current conditions.
The end.
And never share CAD.
Ever.
archanonymous: it prevents someone from fiddling with drawings that have your name on them. Liability is theoretically greater and the recipient might build another building using your drawings (changing the title block of course) without your being compensated.
Jonathan: my concern with charging is whether it could somehow be construed as a new contract which might restart the statute of limitations. Maybe I'm getting too nervous in my old age, but the OP needs to ask "what's in it for me"? A few bucks of billable time? Is legal exposure worth it? I dunno.
Geezertect: I would argue that no liability is extended because you are essentially selling a copy of the drawing. He is also welcome to ask for a copy from the original client. Some might, as shown above, argue that you should not charge for a copy or at least not a lot cause its kind of a dick move. But hey this is capitalism, supply and demand you know? This is one instance you control the whole supply. Charge what you can.
Now if you change the date on the titleblock and put their name on it as your client. Yes you could be exposed to a lot more liability and should charge appropriately.
The way that we deal with this on design-build and CM jobs is to allow our contractor access to our model and/or exported cad files, which we upload to an FTP-like site every friday. These are archived with a date, so if anybody tries any funny stuff, we have our own archived back-ups (stored on our internal network servers) for comparison.
Working this way over the last 6 months has opened my eyes about this. It certainly appears risky most of the time, but it also allows easier and more frequent collaboration on complex or time-sensitive projects.
Having said all of this, it's not my firm so my risk is essentially nil. I might think otherwise if I was an owner....
null's first post, which should also alleviate you from any liability even if you gave them CADs............give them without your name or titleblock on them........................I give portions of my CADs out a lot to expedite subs or if the sub is clueless - teach them their own details. i also operate more like a design builder than a licensed architect sometimes, so I am sure I stray from typical guidelines.........................as a funny side note there is this architect in NYC who not only gives out his CADs, his friggin' stamp which is in CAD is included in the titleblock.................a good portion of new crap in Brooklyn is by this man.......same guy, prior to my license, i did some builders paver plan for a developer working with the electrical company and dept. of transportation, just regular old drafting, get a call from this guys office with a frantic project architect "hey did we authorize you to draw the plans?"..........me - "who are you? i work for blahblah?"........PA "we stamped those drawings?"..........me-"so?".........PA -"ok, the client came in and our secretary stamped them! can you send me the CADs"..........me "yeah sure, whatever. i guess i was authorized?"........."yes."....... ..no joke
I am just aghast at how outdated the mode of working is. Basically any file format shows date modified and who modified it in properties, and neither of these pieces of metadata are easily tampered with. It should be an open and shut case if a contractor or owner was to try and claim you sent an incorrect file after they tampered with it...
Has anyone actually experienced (1st or 2nd hand) someone getting sued/ taken advantage of after handing over a model or CAD drawing?
Thank you all for your insight and support. The reason the contractor is requesting the cad file is be able to save time and hand it over to an architecture firm that will be doing the work. I cannot partake as I am not licensed plus it also would be a conflict of interest with my full time job.
I have also spoken to close colleagues and have also mentioned the liability issues that could come. I agree with having the contractor sign a liability waiver should I decide to release the file.
I am thinking about charging 50% of my initial fee