I'm considering going back to school for an M. Arch, maybe even a dual degree program that combines and MBA with the M. Arch. Before I fully commit to that, I need to see if I'm nuts. Please be as brutal as you wish.
Background:
32 Years Old
11 Years Experience in Banking and Real Estate
7 Years Experience Designing and Renovating SF Residential Homes
BBA in Finance, BBA in Economics from Baylor University - 3.3 GPA earned part-time while managing a mortgage banking operation full time.
Story:
I got lucky and hit it big in the mortgage banking industry prior to the crash. That allowed me to begin investing in homes where I would remodel and sell or rent the finished product. I manage several different companies now, but one of them is a company where I act as the sole designer for new construction, remodels, and our own "flips". Of course, I'm not an architect, so I don't act as one, but I do create renderings and drive the entire design perspective until the point of requiring an architect (if one is needed).
I always thought that money was the key to happiness, so that's what I sought. Turns out it's not and I'm having an early crisis. I do absolutely love the creative process. It thrills me to take on a pile of rubble and turn it into something amazing that people love. I seem to have an excellent eye for potential, design, and am able transfer this eye into a very sellable product.
Questions:
Am I mistaking color picking and wall moving as some sort of talent that I really don't have?
Am I too old to start in the business?
What type of career options are out there for someone with my background?
I have only spoken to one school (Yale), but according to them, my fairly extensive portfolio of work is meaningless and I will still need to complete pre-requisites just to apply to a program. Is that true of all programs or just theirs?
If I do make the switch, what am I getting myself into?
I'm hoping to transition to a development role where I can utilize my business and selling skills in combination with new found technical skills. Is anyone in such a role? Is this a good way to get to that point?
Thanks all.
Miles Jaffe
May 10, 15 9:19 am
You're already doing the work, WTF do you need schooling for? Don't waste your time. Start your own firm, hire an architect if you need to.
anonitect
May 10, 15 10:35 am
I guess I'm with Miles on this one (a rare occasion.) If you had talked about self improvement, or wanting to further your education, I'd say that you should go back to school. But, if you think of the M.Arch simply as vocation training, then don't bother. We don't need more business people in architecture- y'all have already fucked up the profession.
Volunteer
May 10, 15 10:35 am
What Miles said. Some of the very best contemporary and classical architects have minimal, if any, formal training. Check out the work of John Pawson, a UK architect that the Royal Institute of British Architects says isn't really an architect.
geezertect
May 10, 15 10:41 am
I always thought that money was the key to happiness, so that's what I sought. Turns out it's not and I'm having an early crisis
So you're toying with giving poverty a try?
If $100K for a credential you don't need is your idea of a good investment, maybe some additional business coursework would be a better move.
Carrera
May 10, 15 12:14 pm
You don't need to be an architect, if you can buy an architect. Find a licensed architect as a partner and fly.
x-jla
May 10, 15 12:22 pm
go to the school library and find out what books are being required for the m-arch....buy them...read them...much cheaper than attending the school...
Miles Jaffe
May 10, 15 12:52 pm
I guess I'm with Miles on this one (a rare occasion.)
When people start agreeing with me I think I might be wrong.
mcguery
May 10, 15 1:29 pm
Thanks a lot for the answers. They're not what I expected, thus even more helpful.
To clarify, at this point, I feel like my skill set is that of a glorified color picker. I have quite a bit of vision, but I struggle to take it from my brain to paper (or computer screen). Most of what I've done is simply identifying aspects of design in a program like Houzz and then pairing them together in a finished product that I own, thus have no accountability for, or I'm working on a small time project where the owners just trust me because they don't know better.
I'd like to work in much larger development. While I'm financially comfortable, I'm not able to develop larger commercial space so the plan would be to pursue the program, work for a big-time developer where I could utilize my existing skill set and use the M. Arch to have a say in the design process. I don't see myself as becoming a full-time architect, though I'm not opposed to that either.
quizzical
May 10, 15 1:40 pm
You don't need to be an architect to "have a say in the design process" -- if you read through enough threads on this forum, you'll quickly discover that most architects here feel they have little real influence over what actually gets built. The guys with the money are the ones with the real influence.
If I were in your shoes, I'd pursue the MBA by itself, with a concentration on topics related to real estate. Then take a job with a big-time commercial developer. Once you're in that position, you'll have more than enough influence over what gets designed. And, in that role, you'll also have an opportunity to hire architects who probably are better equipped than you are to implement your "vision".
Good luck.
Volunteer
May 10, 15 3:44 pm
I think a masters in finance would be more applicable: "No bucks, no buildings"
xx__
May 10, 15 3:53 pm
Maybe try to hire some teachers for personal lessons or even better, hire good architects as consultants for some project, and sit with them asking questions why and how they are making decisions. Because even nowadays architecture is more like a craft, better learn it from master to desciple.
JsBach
May 10, 15 9:45 pm
Clients have a huge amount of say in the creative process. A lot of times, the architect only implements the creative input from the client. If you have money and vision, then developing a project is going to give you more freedom than anything else. Partnering with or just hiring an architect will be the way to go if you have the talents you think you have.
I can't think of many circumstances where and architect decides,"hmm I think I will design a building today" and has any hope of getting it built. An architect/developer is a whole other thing though.
An entrepreneur, who is used getting his own way, is going to be in for a rude awakening in an architecture school. Just wait till your first jury when a professor calls you a no talent hack, and spits on your drawings. Most design classes are out of touch with reality, if you have real world experience, your are going to be laughing at the projects you are assigned. Maybe some schools would let you audit a design studio, then you could find out if you like that environment. The only thing good out of design studios is hanging out with other students while discussing design. The degree means little.
Like others have said, if you have talent and conviction, just start building the buildings you want to build. The market will dictate whether anyone buys or rents these buildings.
sameolddoctor
May 10, 15 10:41 pm
DO NOT GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL. DO NOT GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL.
As Miles rightly said, hire an architect (or heck, three!) and start a firm if you would like to. But you will lose money doing it (or barely get by) - but if thats you want, try it out!
midlander
May 11, 15 12:53 am
@OP, I don't entirely disagree with what some of the others are saying, but your notion of studying architecture is still worth considering. If you're not happy with your current work you do need to find a way to move into what you really care about. That probably isn't going to be working as a licensed architect however!
If your interest is ultimately to work in large-scale commercial development you will never personally be doing the architectural design work, but an understanding of the process would definitely benefit you. At the first stages being able to envision a rough idea of a project gives you some chance to see value in overlooked sites - and later you will better be able to evaluate the architect's work in terms of how it meets the needs of an end-user.
From what you've described it doesn't sound like you've actually worked with an architect, nor seem very familiar with the process of design as would apply to these kinds of projects. In that case you might be able to leverage further study into a short-term position working at one of the bigger architecture firms doing design for commercial developers which could give a better overview of the process.
Also, most of the big developers employ architects (or unlicensed people with a background in architectural design) who advise on design matters, select architects and other design specialists, and review the work for suitability to the project goals. Depending on the nature of the work, they might help develop product standards and planning guidelines that help in evaluating sites and conducting market studies. It's a real job, and quite influential on the ultimate building, even those these in-house architects don't actually do the design work.
---
If this seems interesting to you, you should do more research on your options for education. An accredited M.Arch prepares you to become licensed as an architect, but that almost certainly won't suit you since it requires further time working as an intern and completing exams after graduation. Plus as stated, you really don't need to do the design work to oversee the design.
My suggestion would be to look into some of the universities that offer programs in Real Estate studies integrated into Design. Harvard's GSD has one example, MIT and I think Stanford also have these courses that study design from a developer's perspective. Columbia and Cornell have MsRED too, but I don't know if they approach it from a design perspective or purely legal / financial considerations. I think you'll find a much more positive reception of your background in one of these programs, and probably they will better prepare you for the kind of work you're describing.
The typical architecture program is less about learning technical knowledge than about inculcating a certain culture of design. Some programs (Yale among them, IMHO) are heavily slanted towards an academic / theoretical understanding of architecture, and would be entirely indifferent to whether a graduate could design real, commercially-viable buildings. Other programs (some of the big state schools and technical universities) encourage a more nuts-and-bolts understanding of how buildings are built, but I don't really think this would do much to help you as a developer. So again, something that focuses on a bigger picture of how design and PLANNING affect a project would be more appropriate for your goals.
So, TLDR: Don't give up on your ambition, but look into getting a broader education on how planning and design integrate into project development. An M.Arch is probably not the best way to do this.
Good luck!
Volunteer
May 11, 15 6:43 am
Consider the career of Roger Staubach, the Dallas Cowboy quarterback who began working for a real estate developer in Dallas in the off season. He eventually formed his own firm and has been wildly successful while keeping a solid business and personal reputation. He is the anti-Donald Trump of the business.
Lian Chikako Chang
May 13, 15 1:12 am
If you're currently successful at house flipping in SF, you should definitely not stop! You should have your pick of really talented, hard-working, collaborative architects to team up with if you want to raise your game creatively and technically. In fact, I know some in the area, so feel free to DM me if you'd like some intros. You will learn a ton from them, they will learn a ton from you, and you will do great work all the way to the bank.
On the other hand, if you're currently successful at house flipping in SF, you're a millionaire several times over. So if your dream is to go to architecture school, then why not?
boy in a well
May 13, 15 1:40 am
MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL
MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL
MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL
MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL
like, if you want to know shit about architecture and not be a paint chip picker with deep pockets. or maybe just hang with some fucking architects who dont suck and learn.
want my number?
geezertect
May 13, 15 9:49 am
^ Life as a "paint chip picker with deep pockets" beats life as a cad monkey for low pay/no pay. Architecture is a great hobby but a lousy profession.
eco_gen
Oct 31, 15 3:44 pm
Get a job with a real estate development company. You can start out as a Development Coordinator if they won't hire you as a Development Manager. Architecture School is expensive because it is very hard to go to architecture school and work at the same time, so that means years of schooling with no pay! The Development Manager is the person who influences the design decision the most and sadly, they often don't need an architectural degree at all in order to get into those positions. If you had to start off as a Development Coordinator, they would likely start you out at the top salary bracket for it which is $75,000- $85,000 and it wouldn't take you long to move into a Development Manager role. Development Manager's start off at about the $100,000 mark.
The real estate developers love people with business backgrounds because they perceive that you will be better at managing the Pro Formas! You will get to work with the architect and the owner of the company or VP of Development to shape the look and feel of the projects. You should check the starting salary for the Masters of Architecture Grads on here, I would imagine it will be an eye opener for you. Because you are used to the higher salary, I would recommend skipping school and doing as suggested above.
If on the other hand, you have a lot of money from your mortgage days and can afford a couple of years without work and starting out at a low salary, then go for it! Architecture is like a drug, it's very addictive to grow that artistic side of you and there is lots of reward from it. There are many people on here which love it and would not change what they do. Unfortunately, the salary for architects isn't the best until you get licensed and move up the ranks. It will take you a while to get trained up once you are in a firm so you starting salary will be low. If you don't know what it is like to make good money or if you have a husband or wife that has a second income, you will be ok.
Greetings.
I'm considering going back to school for an M. Arch, maybe even a dual degree program that combines and MBA with the M. Arch. Before I fully commit to that, I need to see if I'm nuts. Please be as brutal as you wish.
Background:
32 Years Old
11 Years Experience in Banking and Real Estate
7 Years Experience Designing and Renovating SF Residential Homes
BBA in Finance, BBA in Economics from Baylor University - 3.3 GPA earned part-time while managing a mortgage banking operation full time.
Story:
I got lucky and hit it big in the mortgage banking industry prior to the crash. That allowed me to begin investing in homes where I would remodel and sell or rent the finished product. I manage several different companies now, but one of them is a company where I act as the sole designer for new construction, remodels, and our own "flips". Of course, I'm not an architect, so I don't act as one, but I do create renderings and drive the entire design perspective until the point of requiring an architect (if one is needed).
I always thought that money was the key to happiness, so that's what I sought. Turns out it's not and I'm having an early crisis. I do absolutely love the creative process. It thrills me to take on a pile of rubble and turn it into something amazing that people love. I seem to have an excellent eye for potential, design, and am able transfer this eye into a very sellable product.
Questions:
Am I mistaking color picking and wall moving as some sort of talent that I really don't have?
Am I too old to start in the business?
What type of career options are out there for someone with my background?
I have only spoken to one school (Yale), but according to them, my fairly extensive portfolio of work is meaningless and I will still need to complete pre-requisites just to apply to a program. Is that true of all programs or just theirs?
If I do make the switch, what am I getting myself into?
I'm hoping to transition to a development role where I can utilize my business and selling skills in combination with new found technical skills. Is anyone in such a role? Is this a good way to get to that point?
Thanks all.
You're already doing the work, WTF do you need schooling for? Don't waste your time. Start your own firm, hire an architect if you need to.
I guess I'm with Miles on this one (a rare occasion.) If you had talked about self improvement, or wanting to further your education, I'd say that you should go back to school. But, if you think of the M.Arch simply as vocation training, then don't bother. We don't need more business people in architecture- y'all have already fucked up the profession.
What Miles said. Some of the very best contemporary and classical architects have minimal, if any, formal training. Check out the work of John Pawson, a UK architect that the Royal Institute of British Architects says isn't really an architect.
I always thought that money was the key to happiness, so that's what I sought. Turns out it's not and I'm having an early crisis
So you're toying with giving poverty a try?
If $100K for a credential you don't need is your idea of a good investment, maybe some additional business coursework would be a better move.
You don't need to be an architect, if you can buy an architect. Find a licensed architect as a partner and fly.
go to the school library and find out what books are being required for the m-arch....buy them...read them...much cheaper than attending the school...
I guess I'm with Miles on this one (a rare occasion.)
When people start agreeing with me I think I might be wrong.
Thanks a lot for the answers. They're not what I expected, thus even more helpful.
To clarify, at this point, I feel like my skill set is that of a glorified color picker. I have quite a bit of vision, but I struggle to take it from my brain to paper (or computer screen). Most of what I've done is simply identifying aspects of design in a program like Houzz and then pairing them together in a finished product that I own, thus have no accountability for, or I'm working on a small time project where the owners just trust me because they don't know better.
I'd like to work in much larger development. While I'm financially comfortable, I'm not able to develop larger commercial space so the plan would be to pursue the program, work for a big-time developer where I could utilize my existing skill set and use the M. Arch to have a say in the design process. I don't see myself as becoming a full-time architect, though I'm not opposed to that either.
You don't need to be an architect to "have a say in the design process" -- if you read through enough threads on this forum, you'll quickly discover that most architects here feel they have little real influence over what actually gets built. The guys with the money are the ones with the real influence.
If I were in your shoes, I'd pursue the MBA by itself, with a concentration on topics related to real estate. Then take a job with a big-time commercial developer. Once you're in that position, you'll have more than enough influence over what gets designed. And, in that role, you'll also have an opportunity to hire architects who probably are better equipped than you are to implement your "vision".
Good luck.
I think a masters in finance would be more applicable: "No bucks, no buildings"
Maybe try to hire some teachers for personal lessons or even better, hire good architects as consultants for some project, and sit with them asking questions why and how they are making decisions. Because even nowadays architecture is more like a craft, better learn it from master to desciple.
Clients have a huge amount of say in the creative process. A lot of times, the architect only implements the creative input from the client. If you have money and vision, then developing a project is going to give you more freedom than anything else. Partnering with or just hiring an architect will be the way to go if you have the talents you think you have.
I can't think of many circumstances where and architect decides,"hmm I think I will design a building today" and has any hope of getting it built. An architect/developer is a whole other thing though.
An entrepreneur, who is used getting his own way, is going to be in for a rude awakening in an architecture school. Just wait till your first jury when a professor calls you a no talent hack, and spits on your drawings. Most design classes are out of touch with reality, if you have real world experience, your are going to be laughing at the projects you are assigned. Maybe some schools would let you audit a design studio, then you could find out if you like that environment. The only thing good out of design studios is hanging out with other students while discussing design. The degree means little.
Like others have said, if you have talent and conviction, just start building the buildings you want to build. The market will dictate whether anyone buys or rents these buildings.
DO NOT GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL. DO NOT GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL.
As Miles rightly said, hire an architect (or heck, three!) and start a firm if you would like to. But you will lose money doing it (or barely get by) - but if thats you want, try it out!
@OP, I don't entirely disagree with what some of the others are saying, but your notion of studying architecture is still worth considering. If you're not happy with your current work you do need to find a way to move into what you really care about. That probably isn't going to be working as a licensed architect however!
If your interest is ultimately to work in large-scale commercial development you will never personally be doing the architectural design work, but an understanding of the process would definitely benefit you. At the first stages being able to envision a rough idea of a project gives you some chance to see value in overlooked sites - and later you will better be able to evaluate the architect's work in terms of how it meets the needs of an end-user.
From what you've described it doesn't sound like you've actually worked with an architect, nor seem very familiar with the process of design as would apply to these kinds of projects. In that case you might be able to leverage further study into a short-term position working at one of the bigger architecture firms doing design for commercial developers which could give a better overview of the process.
Also, most of the big developers employ architects (or unlicensed people with a background in architectural design) who advise on design matters, select architects and other design specialists, and review the work for suitability to the project goals. Depending on the nature of the work, they might help develop product standards and planning guidelines that help in evaluating sites and conducting market studies. It's a real job, and quite influential on the ultimate building, even those these in-house architects don't actually do the design work.
---
If this seems interesting to you, you should do more research on your options for education. An accredited M.Arch prepares you to become licensed as an architect, but that almost certainly won't suit you since it requires further time working as an intern and completing exams after graduation. Plus as stated, you really don't need to do the design work to oversee the design.
My suggestion would be to look into some of the universities that offer programs in Real Estate studies integrated into Design. Harvard's GSD has one example, MIT and I think Stanford also have these courses that study design from a developer's perspective. Columbia and Cornell have MsRED too, but I don't know if they approach it from a design perspective or purely legal / financial considerations. I think you'll find a much more positive reception of your background in one of these programs, and probably they will better prepare you for the kind of work you're describing.
The typical architecture program is less about learning technical knowledge than about inculcating a certain culture of design. Some programs (Yale among them, IMHO) are heavily slanted towards an academic / theoretical understanding of architecture, and would be entirely indifferent to whether a graduate could design real, commercially-viable buildings. Other programs (some of the big state schools and technical universities) encourage a more nuts-and-bolts understanding of how buildings are built, but I don't really think this would do much to help you as a developer. So again, something that focuses on a bigger picture of how design and PLANNING affect a project would be more appropriate for your goals.
So, TLDR: Don't give up on your ambition, but look into getting a broader education on how planning and design integrate into project development. An M.Arch is probably not the best way to do this.
Good luck!
Consider the career of Roger Staubach, the Dallas Cowboy quarterback who began working for a real estate developer in Dallas in the off season. He eventually formed his own firm and has been wildly successful while keeping a solid business and personal reputation. He is the anti-Donald Trump of the business.
If you're currently successful at house flipping in SF, you should definitely not stop! You should have your pick of really talented, hard-working, collaborative architects to team up with if you want to raise your game creatively and technically. In fact, I know some in the area, so feel free to DM me if you'd like some intros. You will learn a ton from them, they will learn a ton from you, and you will do great work all the way to the bank.
On the other hand, if you're currently successful at house flipping in SF, you're a millionaire several times over. So if your dream is to go to architecture school, then why not?
MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL
MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL
MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL
MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL MAYBE GO TO ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL
like, if you want to know shit about architecture and not be a paint chip picker with deep pockets. or maybe just hang with some fucking architects who dont suck and learn.
want my number?
^ Life as a "paint chip picker with deep pockets" beats life as a cad monkey for low pay/no pay. Architecture is a great hobby but a lousy profession.
Get a job with a real estate development company. You can start out as a Development Coordinator if they won't hire you as a Development Manager. Architecture School is expensive because it is very hard to go to architecture school and work at the same time, so that means years of schooling with no pay! The Development Manager is the person who influences the design decision the most and sadly, they often don't need an architectural degree at all in order to get into those positions. If you had to start off as a Development Coordinator, they would likely start you out at the top salary bracket for it which is $75,000- $85,000 and it wouldn't take you long to move into a Development Manager role. Development Manager's start off at about the $100,000 mark.
The real estate developers love people with business backgrounds because they perceive that you will be better at managing the Pro Formas! You will get to work with the architect and the owner of the company or VP of Development to shape the look and feel of the projects. You should check the starting salary for the Masters of Architecture Grads on here, I would imagine it will be an eye opener for you. Because you are used to the higher salary, I would recommend skipping school and doing as suggested above.
If on the other hand, you have a lot of money from your mortgage days and can afford a couple of years without work and starting out at a low salary, then go for it! Architecture is like a drug, it's very addictive to grow that artistic side of you and there is lots of reward from it. There are many people on here which love it and would not change what they do. Unfortunately, the salary for architects isn't the best until you get licensed and move up the ranks. It will take you a while to get trained up once you are in a firm so you starting salary will be low. If you don't know what it is like to make good money or if you have a husband or wife that has a second income, you will be ok.
I hope that helps.