Isn't that a universal thing for the design-oriented professions?
Any Joe Schmo can pop into PowerPoint and whip up a logo/set up a website using all the free templates/pick out paint colors and decor items/renovate their house by watching HGTV - it's all about proving value.
Carrera
May 1, 15 5:12 pm
Very true and increasingly expensive, 80% of my time was chasing the work….emphasis on “chase”.
BR.TN
May 1, 15 6:22 pm
Marketecture, duh.
awaiting_deletion
May 1, 15 6:31 pm
eventually, but you have to have something to market....for me hard work has led to good work and good work to more work.....finally re-doing my website since it does not say much about my work.....plenty of architects out there that get plenty of work without marketing, which is different then chasing clients.
Non-ASD Jequitarchitectur
May 1, 15 8:09 pm
Let me elaborate:
Essentially, what the architect does nowadays is package a range of services (civil, m&e, interior etc) into one product = building for the most competitive price.
Design is somewhat absentfrom the process because:
1. It's essentially the client who designs by setting the budget.
2. The inevitable recycling of design ideas (The culture of copying/immitating other projects -call it 'taking inspiration' at best or 'will never be original' at worst.)
3. The standardization of construction products for economic purposes, that has lead to designing= 'picking stuff from a catalogue' and essentially traps all projects into typologies of aesthetics, which are themselves dependent on cost.
Also given that..
a) design solutions exist nowadays for any kind of project
b) it's unlikely there will be any radical innovation in building design soon - e.g. similar to the development of the skyscraper- unless some new material (like graphene) comes in practical use.
..it seems that the client is not anymore hiring the architect in order to access exclusive design knowledge.. (maybe not the case with practices specializing in sectors like industrial)
Furthermore, given that we have subcontracted every job to other technical professions (technologists, project managers, design managers, specs consultants, facade engineers, visualizers etc)what is that we are actually doing, which is worth spending 5 years in university or demanding higher fees? (if it isn't marketing that we are doing)
Am I missing something?
x-jla
May 1, 15 9:06 pm
If you want to design either leave the US or switch to Landscape
awaiting_deletion
May 1, 15 9:35 pm
daer sounds like you work on really boring stuff, sorry to hear that.
just about all your points don't apply to the work I do.
Carrera
May 1, 15 10:10 pm
Know a ton of guys that just sit there and work floats in, know some who don’t even have websites, puzzles me, but there are too many variables to this, talent, market, luck, income expectations…like everything else it’s safe at the bottom and at the very top, it’s a bitch in the middle, too big to just sit there and too small to just sit there….the great Bill Caudill (CRS) once told me “If you find yourself standing still, you're going backwards”.
Miles Jaffe
May 1, 15 10:38 pm
Am I missing something?
Pretty much everything.
DTL DWG
May 1, 15 10:42 pm
Amen! /\
daer - Capital is a minor point in existence, no need to succumb to it!
Non-ASD Jequitarchitectur
May 1, 15 11:12 pm
I've only started out in professional practice, so I am not ruling out the possibility that I got it wrong, just in need of some guidance.
@ Olaf I take it that your job is interesting then (although I fail to see how you can avoid the first 3 points). Can you give details about your job, type of practice you work for, role etc..
@Miles unless you are too lazy, could you please elaborate on what I got wrong. That would make it a discussion.
@ Chris Teeter this sounds too idealistic, so I'll take it that you're an academic?
DTL DWG
May 1, 15 11:22 pm
daer, do me a favor and look at my resume! Olaf is my 2nd cousin by the way, really!
some of your comments do remind me of a young self of myself, so I won't be too much of a dick, although when I made comments like yours I was a dick, I may still be...who cares....
1. clients establish budget, they don't establish what the budget can do, you do.
2. clearly you have never worked the construction drawings through an entire project, every job is different. copy/paste stops at Schematics.
3. again, you've never worked a job through clearly. eventually you'll find, unlike McDonalds, some random pharmacy, etc...construction constantly causes the custom to happen and only you the architect can make the magic detail happen, because the engineers and contractors all have blinders on....
so let me know when you're ready to become an Architect?
Carrera
May 1, 15 11:46 pm
Daer, when you've won hundreds of design awards, a Pritzker Prize, a Gold Metal, become FAIA, and independently wealthy like these guys, it's hard to relate to your reality... what's your problem? There's no struggle in this business, what could possibly be wrong? Just get good, become great, snap out of it... just do nothing, just stand there and it will all just rain down on you like what happened to these guys.
DTL DWG
May 1, 15 11:52 pm
Carrera, not sure if you're with me or against me, and frankly if Daer is in their 20's they are off to a good start with this mindset, but I don't think they understand or have experienced the potential met with problems....
funny thing Carrera, a song from this album just came on...but now back to Pink Floyd...
Non-ASD Jequitarchitectur
May 2, 15 12:23 am
Chris, can't you take a joke?
Calling you an academic was probably too harsh, although I wasn't trying too hard to be honest.
1. Our latest clients brought in their own design manager.
2,3. The firm I work for is using financial models: 300k house, 200k house etc. We are using the same construction details/products for every project and that makes all the buildings have a very similar style. Mind you we do residential. I don't even want to think how standardized retail/industrial must be.
Obviously this is not producing good architecture, however it wouldn't surprise me if all cash-strapped small sized firms operated like this.
Becoming an architect? Is that ever possible when one is an employee?
@ Carrera I can't quite get the last comment mate. I am only a bit frustrated with what is going on in my professional life.
Carrera
May 2, 15 12:55 am
Chris, your post was posted while I was writing mine and I didn't see it.... I'm with you, first respectable answer... what's wrong with this guy seeing the dark side of things? He needs light not more darkness. Just can't believe the answers... seems one needs to be FAIA to ask a question here.
Daer, just getting after the knuckleheads, nothing to do with you. Hell yah it's frustrating, damn frustrating... these pages are full of frustration... just looks like your OP ran into a group that thinks this thing we do is just peachy.
May 2, 15 2:56 am
Although projects I work on such as exempt buildings often uses common material but you can be literally amazed what can be done with materials. Sure, I can take wood stock pre-dimensioned to some stock dimension and there are trillions upon trillions of possible outcomes to make one single 10-ft. stick into something. I may use common building materials but there is many ways you can achieve your design. There is also a massive array of materials and components that are not necessarily available at your local home depot and even they can be custom modified.
Who says I can cut a brick. I can. Have a lapidary diamond saw? Sure, it means you the designer has to have the balls to demand more craft out of the builders and believe me, those that can, will do the job. Those that can't will get left behind in the dust of those that can. It means we take greater charge out the outcome.
If you want some real power you become not just the Architect but the GC-CM/PM and you subcontract the trades because YOU can choose who will be awarded the contract for the particular trade. Doing so means YOU can give the shit heads the boot and those that can will have more work. Others in the process will up their game so they can compete to be in the trade. What you do is get the trades to compete and up their game and if that means they improve their craft skills then they will.
Who says good craftsmanship has to be expensive. They don't. Here is the answer, price is a bit of supply & demand. High craft skill is in low supply and there is a demand so the price is up there but people aren't willing to pay that except a small number of people. So to change the equation is expanding the skilled craft trades and improve the skill base and in turn, more skilled trade would be available. This would lower the price of decent craftsmen. We make more craftsmen, the competition will lower the price for high skills because it will raise the average level of skill in the trade among those who are competing.
The thing is, to be a GC is about bringing together a team of skill trades together. They need not be dealing with the ugly issues of the client. As the designer-architect, we are best to also be the prime contractor (GC) with the client because we were here with the client from the beginning with design and then we take our design vision and bring it together by working closely with the craft trades to make the end 'product' the building. That is when we as architects/designers had real value because that is what built us as a nation during the industrial revolution prior to the 20th century and many of us in fact still practiced well into the first half of the 20th century because most architects grandfathered in were also serving as general contractors to the client and subcontracted the building trades. So if we are to get anywhere, we must become the GC and that's actually easy for us to do.
It would go along way in leveraging and leading not ruling because humility is something we need to also have and respect the trades because they know how to do the stuff they do better than us. While it takes a jack of all trades to be the 'master builder' because no one can master all the trades so to lead a team of multiple trades, you need to fundamentally understand each trade you work with but you need to trust that someone that spends 10-20 years of their life dedicated to a particular trade knows the ins and outs of that trade and trust that they know what they are doing with prudent trust.
Remember, they may have a better idea how to do something of their trade but you would be coordinating with multiple trades and they'll communicate with you what they need so your job isn't to tell them how to do their jobs but get the multiple trades to work as a team and get a job done efficiently so your job is contract / client relationship, design, coordination, project / construction management, etc. So, for us to have value, we need to take charge.
Surely, the alternative is become the 'client' (Developer) then you ultimately would be at the top of the totem pole because it is your money. However, that isn't necessarily an option everyone can do for a variety of reasons. However, the next best thing is design-build and be architect/designer and general contractor-PM/CM. In that case, you'll increase your leverage and control of outcomes of a project but this isn't the path for the timid of the artsy crowd. Really, we need to get out of the fine arts mold because most of what we really do is overall an applied art because we design something to be used not to be looked at in a wall frame or a museum in a glass box even though principles of fine art may be woven but architecture in the profession practice and built environment and business of architecture isn't going to be something that is about personal expression and museum pieces. It's not a painting. It's not sculpture. People aren't asking for us to design something that would be something you would put under a display case. We don't design that. We design real buildings to be used. I see what I do more like an applied art and craft than a fine art sculpture. This puts me at odds with architecture school culture.
I don't care because I think the ivory tower of architecture school academia culture that is still pervasive is root of alot of the disconnect between what is taught in school and what is done in practice.
May 2, 15 3:49 am
On the flip side, being Architect-designer and also being the GC isn't without its own challenges.
The biggest reason for why things are tenuous is lets be honest, the client isn't comfortable spending this huge amount of money on a project and they are freaking out and literally in panic.
Most clients are in panic when working with such a project.
This leads to a cascade of issues and over the 5+ decades, things have became progressively challenging with also the more complex legal environment, lawsuit culture, etc.
Architects as a profession developed a 'persona non grata' reputation where people don't want an architect because of a culture of myths. So we are fighting a 'ghost' that haunts us as a spectre and that will take generations to fix sadly. So, it is by nature of things how they are now that is going to make things frustrating. You can thank those before you for the headaches ahead. Sorry, it is the way it is.
DTL DWG
May 2, 15 8:02 am
daer, calm down, calm down... ;) Text only discussions are tough sometimes, you can't tell if someone is joking or not - haha (hope that helps)
1. Designers tend to pick stuff and do layouts, the architect still 'designs' between all the trades, typically details, but I understand if you don't consider that design, since that is not what they teach you in school.
2.3 I work mainly NYC, which means almost everything is NOT standard, even brand new should be cooking cutter out of ground construction. You can spend months just to get the hole in the ground resolved. They change the code mid-way through project often (have had that happen) etc...
I have to imagine though, even if you copy paste details eventually something comes up that is non-standard?
In the US, that type of home is done 100% without an Architect, so you are right, based on what you're doing the Architect really isn't designing anything.
Frustration and questioning are all good signs, and shouting at people on Archinect is good, pretty sure I spent the first 5 years of my career posting and shouting my frustrations on Architect, often not believing some older Architect telling me I can be an architect the way it was imagined....,
DTL DWG
May 2, 15 9:01 am
daer, read your dark side post...just change firms, 3 years at a place is a a long time if you don't like what you're doing.
Miles Jaffe
May 2, 15 9:07 am
Sounds like your firm specializes in subcontracting and cut 'n paste. Don't assume that all firms - or projects - are the same.
As for lazy, I answered the specific question that you posted. Getting snotty about it doesn't win you any points.
awaiting_deletion
May 2, 15 9:49 am
let's state the obvious here....
getting a job at a firm like that and being there 3 years pretty much means your school work was less than impressive!
here all night.
Donna Sink
May 2, 15 10:47 am
daer, I haven't read everything above, but in this economy I would encourage to think about looking for a new job in a firm that does a different kind of work. There is no shame in job-hopping a bit during your first years, even decade, out of school. Get exposed to lots of different office sizes and areas of focus. Some practices are just not interested in stretching their limits; they find a formula that is profitable and keep at it. Some offices are never profitable and constantly are spinning their wheels chasing work that doesn't pan out, and many practices are somewhere in between. Try different places before you decide the entire discipline is not satisfying.
Also, a move right now might be a way to get a salary increase.
Larchinect
May 2, 15 6:27 pm
I love design, and talking design. I talk design at EVERY chance I get. Its annoying to some I'm sure, but that is how I market.
I find myself talking/marketing more and more. If it comes from a place of genuine interest and passion it doesnt have to be so unnatural. Its when you do the hard sell marketing that I begin to feel a little dirty.
Non-ASD Jequitarchitectur
May 2, 15 8:41 pm
I think this should have stopped at Olaf's first post.
Discuss.
Isn't that a universal thing for the design-oriented professions?
Any Joe Schmo can pop into PowerPoint and whip up a logo/set up a website using all the free templates/pick out paint colors and decor items/renovate their house by watching HGTV - it's all about proving value.
Very true and increasingly expensive, 80% of my time was chasing the work….emphasis on “chase”.
Marketecture, duh.
eventually, but you have to have something to market....for me hard work has led to good work and good work to more work.....finally re-doing my website since it does not say much about my work.....plenty of architects out there that get plenty of work without marketing, which is different then chasing clients.
Let me elaborate:
Essentially, what the architect does nowadays is package a range of services (civil, m&e, interior etc) into one product = building for the most competitive price.
Design is somewhat absent from the process because:
1. It's essentially the client who designs by setting the budget.
2. The inevitable recycling of design ideas (The culture of copying/immitating other projects -call it 'taking inspiration' at best or 'will never be original' at worst.)
3. The standardization of construction products for economic purposes, that has lead to designing= 'picking stuff from a catalogue' and essentially traps all projects into typologies of aesthetics, which are themselves dependent on cost.
Also given that..
a) design solutions exist nowadays for any kind of project
b) it's unlikely there will be any radical innovation in building design soon - e.g. similar to the development of the skyscraper- unless some new material (like graphene) comes in practical use.
..it seems that the client is not anymore hiring the architect in order to access exclusive design knowledge.. (maybe not the case with practices specializing in sectors like industrial)
Furthermore, given that we have subcontracted every job to other technical professions (technologists, project managers, design managers, specs consultants, facade engineers, visualizers etc) what is that we are actually doing, which is worth spending 5 years in university or demanding higher fees? (if it isn't marketing that we are doing)
Am I missing something?
If you want to design either leave the US or switch to Landscape
daer sounds like you work on really boring stuff, sorry to hear that.
just about all your points don't apply to the work I do.
Know a ton of guys that just sit there and work floats in, know some who don’t even have websites, puzzles me, but there are too many variables to this, talent, market, luck, income expectations…like everything else it’s safe at the bottom and at the very top, it’s a bitch in the middle, too big to just sit there and too small to just sit there….the great Bill Caudill (CRS) once told me “If you find yourself standing still, you're going backwards”.
Am I missing something?
Pretty much everything.
Amen! /\
daer - Capital is a minor point in existence, no need to succumb to it!
I've only started out in professional practice, so I am not ruling out the possibility that I got it wrong, just in need of some guidance.
@ Olaf I take it that your job is interesting then (although I fail to see how you can avoid the first 3 points). Can you give details about your job, type of practice you work for, role etc..
@Miles unless you are too lazy, could you please elaborate on what I got wrong. That would make it a discussion.
@ Chris Teeter this sounds too idealistic, so I'll take it that you're an academic?
daer, do me a favor and look at my resume! Olaf is my 2nd cousin by the way, really!
some of your comments do remind me of a young self of myself, so I won't be too much of a dick, although when I made comments like yours I was a dick, I may still be...who cares....
1. clients establish budget, they don't establish what the budget can do, you do.
2. clearly you have never worked the construction drawings through an entire project, every job is different. copy/paste stops at Schematics.
3. again, you've never worked a job through clearly. eventually you'll find, unlike McDonalds, some random pharmacy, etc...construction constantly causes the custom to happen and only you the architect can make the magic detail happen, because the engineers and contractors all have blinders on....
so let me know when you're ready to become an Architect?
Daer, when you've won hundreds of design awards, a Pritzker Prize, a Gold Metal, become FAIA, and independently wealthy like these guys, it's hard to relate to your reality... what's your problem? There's no struggle in this business, what could possibly be wrong? Just get good, become great, snap out of it... just do nothing, just stand there and it will all just rain down on you like what happened to these guys.
Carrera, not sure if you're with me or against me, and frankly if Daer is in their 20's they are off to a good start with this mindset, but I don't think they understand or have experienced the potential met with problems....
funny thing Carrera, a song from this album just came on...but now back to Pink Floyd...
Chris, can't you take a joke?
Calling you an academic was probably too harsh, although I wasn't trying too hard to be honest.
1. Our latest clients brought in their own design manager.
2,3. The firm I work for is using financial models: 300k house, 200k house etc. We are using the same construction details/products for every project and that makes all the buildings have a very similar style. Mind you we do residential. I don't even want to think how standardized retail/industrial must be.
Obviously this is not producing good architecture, however it wouldn't surprise me if all cash-strapped small sized firms operated like this.
Becoming an architect? Is that ever possible when one is an employee?
@ Carrera I can't quite get the last comment mate. I am only a bit frustrated with what is going on in my professional life.
Chris, your post was posted while I was writing mine and I didn't see it.... I'm with you, first respectable answer... what's wrong with this guy seeing the dark side of things? He needs light not more darkness. Just can't believe the answers... seems one needs to be FAIA to ask a question here.
Daer, just getting after the knuckleheads, nothing to do with you. Hell yah it's frustrating, damn frustrating... these pages are full of frustration... just looks like your OP ran into a group that thinks this thing we do is just peachy.
Although projects I work on such as exempt buildings often uses common material but you can be literally amazed what can be done with materials. Sure, I can take wood stock pre-dimensioned to some stock dimension and there are trillions upon trillions of possible outcomes to make one single 10-ft. stick into something. I may use common building materials but there is many ways you can achieve your design. There is also a massive array of materials and components that are not necessarily available at your local home depot and even they can be custom modified.
Who says I can cut a brick. I can. Have a lapidary diamond saw? Sure, it means you the designer has to have the balls to demand more craft out of the builders and believe me, those that can, will do the job. Those that can't will get left behind in the dust of those that can. It means we take greater charge out the outcome.
If you want some real power you become not just the Architect but the GC-CM/PM and you subcontract the trades because YOU can choose who will be awarded the contract for the particular trade. Doing so means YOU can give the shit heads the boot and those that can will have more work. Others in the process will up their game so they can compete to be in the trade. What you do is get the trades to compete and up their game and if that means they improve their craft skills then they will.
Who says good craftsmanship has to be expensive. They don't. Here is the answer, price is a bit of supply & demand. High craft skill is in low supply and there is a demand so the price is up there but people aren't willing to pay that except a small number of people. So to change the equation is expanding the skilled craft trades and improve the skill base and in turn, more skilled trade would be available. This would lower the price of decent craftsmen. We make more craftsmen, the competition will lower the price for high skills because it will raise the average level of skill in the trade among those who are competing.
The thing is, to be a GC is about bringing together a team of skill trades together. They need not be dealing with the ugly issues of the client. As the designer-architect, we are best to also be the prime contractor (GC) with the client because we were here with the client from the beginning with design and then we take our design vision and bring it together by working closely with the craft trades to make the end 'product' the building. That is when we as architects/designers had real value because that is what built us as a nation during the industrial revolution prior to the 20th century and many of us in fact still practiced well into the first half of the 20th century because most architects grandfathered in were also serving as general contractors to the client and subcontracted the building trades. So if we are to get anywhere, we must become the GC and that's actually easy for us to do.
It would go along way in leveraging and leading not ruling because humility is something we need to also have and respect the trades because they know how to do the stuff they do better than us. While it takes a jack of all trades to be the 'master builder' because no one can master all the trades so to lead a team of multiple trades, you need to fundamentally understand each trade you work with but you need to trust that someone that spends 10-20 years of their life dedicated to a particular trade knows the ins and outs of that trade and trust that they know what they are doing with prudent trust.
Remember, they may have a better idea how to do something of their trade but you would be coordinating with multiple trades and they'll communicate with you what they need so your job isn't to tell them how to do their jobs but get the multiple trades to work as a team and get a job done efficiently so your job is contract / client relationship, design, coordination, project / construction management, etc. So, for us to have value, we need to take charge.
Surely, the alternative is become the 'client' (Developer) then you ultimately would be at the top of the totem pole because it is your money. However, that isn't necessarily an option everyone can do for a variety of reasons. However, the next best thing is design-build and be architect/designer and general contractor-PM/CM. In that case, you'll increase your leverage and control of outcomes of a project but this isn't the path for the timid of the artsy crowd. Really, we need to get out of the fine arts mold because most of what we really do is overall an applied art because we design something to be used not to be looked at in a wall frame or a museum in a glass box even though principles of fine art may be woven but architecture in the profession practice and built environment and business of architecture isn't going to be something that is about personal expression and museum pieces. It's not a painting. It's not sculpture. People aren't asking for us to design something that would be something you would put under a display case. We don't design that. We design real buildings to be used. I see what I do more like an applied art and craft than a fine art sculpture. This puts me at odds with architecture school culture.
I don't care because I think the ivory tower of architecture school academia culture that is still pervasive is root of alot of the disconnect between what is taught in school and what is done in practice.
On the flip side, being Architect-designer and also being the GC isn't without its own challenges.
The biggest reason for why things are tenuous is lets be honest, the client isn't comfortable spending this huge amount of money on a project and they are freaking out and literally in panic.
Most clients are in panic when working with such a project.
This leads to a cascade of issues and over the 5+ decades, things have became progressively challenging with also the more complex legal environment, lawsuit culture, etc.
Architects as a profession developed a 'persona non grata' reputation where people don't want an architect because of a culture of myths. So we are fighting a 'ghost' that haunts us as a spectre and that will take generations to fix sadly. So, it is by nature of things how they are now that is going to make things frustrating. You can thank those before you for the headaches ahead. Sorry, it is the way it is.
daer, calm down, calm down... ;) Text only discussions are tough sometimes, you can't tell if someone is joking or not - haha (hope that helps)
1. Designers tend to pick stuff and do layouts, the architect still 'designs' between all the trades, typically details, but I understand if you don't consider that design, since that is not what they teach you in school.
2.3 I work mainly NYC, which means almost everything is NOT standard, even brand new should be cooking cutter out of ground construction. You can spend months just to get the hole in the ground resolved. They change the code mid-way through project often (have had that happen) etc...
I have to imagine though, even if you copy paste details eventually something comes up that is non-standard?
In the US, that type of home is done 100% without an Architect, so you are right, based on what you're doing the Architect really isn't designing anything.
Frustration and questioning are all good signs, and shouting at people on Archinect is good, pretty sure I spent the first 5 years of my career posting and shouting my frustrations on Architect, often not believing some older Architect telling me I can be an architect the way it was imagined....,
daer, read your dark side post...just change firms, 3 years at a place is a a long time if you don't like what you're doing.
Sounds like your firm specializes in subcontracting and cut 'n paste. Don't assume that all firms - or projects - are the same.
As for lazy, I answered the specific question that you posted. Getting snotty about it doesn't win you any points.
let's state the obvious here....
getting a job at a firm like that and being there 3 years pretty much means your school work was less than impressive!
here all night.
daer, I haven't read everything above, but in this economy I would encourage to think about looking for a new job in a firm that does a different kind of work. There is no shame in job-hopping a bit during your first years, even decade, out of school. Get exposed to lots of different office sizes and areas of focus. Some practices are just not interested in stretching their limits; they find a formula that is profitable and keep at it. Some offices are never profitable and constantly are spinning their wheels chasing work that doesn't pan out, and many practices are somewhere in between. Try different places before you decide the entire discipline is not satisfying.
Also, a move right now might be a way to get a salary increase.
I love design, and talking design. I talk design at EVERY chance I get. Its annoying to some I'm sure, but that is how I market.
I find myself talking/marketing more and more. If it comes from a place of genuine interest and passion it doesnt have to be so unnatural. Its when you do the hard sell marketing that I begin to feel a little dirty.
I think this should have stopped at Olaf's first post.
Thanks for the replies everybody.
;l)