It's the classic Catch 22 of course, about needing experience to get a job, and a job to get experience. Over and over again, I get asked if I have any previous firm experience, and it seems like every single job posting wants 1-5 years, 3-7 years, etc. Even for job titles and descriptions that sound pretty darn entry-level. Is it still so much of a buyer's market for talent at the lower rungs of the profession? Does my portfolio just suck? Did I go to the wrong school? How are people getting these first couple years of experience? Is it really asking so much for a firm to take on someone who is bright and dedicated, and put some resources into making them a productive staff member?
Anyway, I'm venting a bit here of course; but it would be good to get some other perspectives on this. I am in Seattle btw, and not really in a position to leave right now; but perhaps it's different elsewhere in the country?
natematt
Apr 3, 15 4:02 pm
What's your method for application? How many aps have you sent out vs. how many interviews have you gotten?
If they are asking for less than 3 years you might be able to get in, and the market is pretty good in most places right now, but there are always an abundance of applicants for entry level spots.
Mr_Wiggin
Apr 3, 15 6:32 pm
Luck, and the willingness to go where the work is. Seattle ain't it really. I got my M.Arch at a University in the NW, the only folks that got jobs out of school in Seattle were either from there, or had friends who already worked there. I knew that the market for newly minted grads in Seattle (the PNW in general) isn't the best, so I pulled up stakes and came to Texas, still difficult to get my foot in the door because of the reliance on alumni networks that most firms hire through, but I got in to a great firm that works on municipal and federal projects. However, it took me 5 months of sending in resumes, following up, polishing my portfolio, and applying for absolutely ever opening regardless. Actually this job there was never even a job listing posted, I just contacted the firm and wrote about myself, how I enjoyed seeing their work, and how I could be an asset. I wrote that email at the beginning of the hunt, didn't hear from the for 4 months, and got a call out of the blue. It just works like that sometimes, so get in the local AIA site, comb through all the offices in the area, make a list, and reach out. It's a frustrating process, but not an impossible proposition.
Apr 3, 15 6:55 pm
Keep in mind the Pacific Northwest area is recovering at a slower rate than other parts of the nation. This means they are trying to re-hire those laid off during the recession whether it be employees they had laid off or those laid off from one of the other firms. There is a really low demand in the architecture profession in the pacific northwest for those fresh out of college.
It is frustrating for sure.
Carrera
Apr 3, 15 8:13 pm
Exasperating…..need to just get a toe in a door, any door at any salary……once you get a job, any job, you’ll be employable…..Co-op programs like Cincinnati’s make sure you graduate with some prerequisite “experience”, more schools should follow suite…..the idea that schools don’t place their graduates, after all that’s paid, baffles me.
Mountain Magic
Apr 3, 15 10:14 pm
Thanks everyone ... Carrera, I couldn't agree more! Natematt, I have been using a combination of applying to posted jobs and sending unsolicited applications to firms that interest me. Seems like a better interview rate with the unsolicited apps, but then they tend not to have a job that immediately needs filling. I would guess I've sent 150 to 200 applications with some degree of a customized cover letter, including quite a few to fairly generic non-architecture firm drafting jobs - structural engineering, project management, etc. Have gotten 6 or 8 interviews, but most not very serious. Definitely getting a better hit rate the last month or two, after tweaking my letter and resume for the hundredth time - so feels like I'm on a good trajectory; but still maybe months away from an actual offer, based on the general seriousness of the interviews, and their attitude about inexperienced applicants.
natematt
Apr 3, 15 11:12 pm
Hmm. Yeah, solicited/unsolicited is a dilemma. Unsolicited like to talk, but they don't seem to need people most of the time, so it doesn't seem like there are as many jobs out of it. Solicited obviously need people, but they are going to get a lot of apps and probably won't even get back to you if you're not in the top few applicants.
Your interview/app ratio is not great. I think the previous comment about the northwest being in a slow recovery is pretty true, I don't know many people moving up there for jobs, it's mostly other markets. However, in a general search I would hope you could get at least 1:10 app to interview ratio. It's hard to say if this is because of your materials or the market you are in.
I know you seemed opposed to the idea, but if possible I think you might be wise to start throwing a little wider net geographically if possible, there are only so many jobs in each local market.
Apr 3, 15 11:37 pm
It is possible that it is a little of both and if he looked to go a little south like California, he would have a little better market not that California is particular... great but there is some geographic push/pull mapping where projects have been going so that would be helpful to some degree.
Mountain Magic
Apr 4, 15 12:46 am
Hmm, so out of curiosity where are the strong job markets for new architecture school graduates?
Mountain Magic
Apr 4, 15 1:55 pm
And here's another more specific question - at least two principals have told me that the ability to sit down and work productively in Revit is one of their key requirements for new hires. I have a decent feel for Revit, but of course the way you use it for school projects is not the way that it gets used for a building that is actually getting built. It seems like there must be a Revit boot camp somewhere, that I could attend for maybe a couple of weeks and get some focused practice on how the software is actually used in the workplace. Anyone have suggestions on that?
bowling_ball
Apr 4, 15 3:11 pm
Fresh out of school, it's not likely that you'll need an advanced knowledge of revit - being familiar with the interface and being able to do basic modelling should be enough, as by definition, you've not yet been exposed to a real-world set of construction documents yet.
Competing on the basis of software knowledge is a dead-end. If you want a real leg up, go get a job with a contractor for a year. Understanding how things get built can give you a HUGE advantage.
xx__
Apr 4, 15 3:23 pm
Mountain Magic, www.revitforum.org. If you have 1-2 extra months for learning also pick Dynamo http://dynamobim.com, there are already useful real world implementations that could improve your productivity. But save it for last, know how to perform basic project exectution must be on first place. If you can model a blob but can't print pdf set or perform accurate area take-off you can get into troubles fast.
Learn how to use phases and schedules, organise shared parameters, create families with nested components, get familiar with categories and view filters.
Mountain Magic
Apr 4, 15 3:55 pm
> If you want a real leg up, go get a job with a contractor for a year.
> Understanding how things get built can give you a HUGE advantage.
Thanks ... what kind of job? I have about six months of hands-on construction experience, but mostly at a pretty menial level.
Incidentally, I was just looking at a Construction Estimating course at one of the local community colleges - would that be worthwhile?
Mountain Magic
Apr 4, 15 4:10 pm
And what about getting my LEED GA?
natematt
Apr 4, 15 6:20 pm
Some firms will like it if you are GA, but it's not likely to get you hired. I think bowling_ball's comment about revit is accurate. It's likely they wouldn't want someone who's never opened the program, but if you've used it you should probably be fine, unless they explicitly state they are looking for an expert.
Strong markets tend to be around the bigger cities. Just poke around the jobs on the forum here, and you'll see a lot of them are LA, SF, or NYC.
Apr 4, 15 6:23 pm
One thing you may want to know how to do effectively is creating 'components' / 'profiles' not just relying on what comes stock.
Creating profiles including custom profiles is one thing that will help you be skilled as needed.
As for LEED... that depends. Some are really for it and some are not. I think some firms that used to be super LEED where every employee had to be LEED accredited or whatever is somewhat distancing or rethinking that notion. It is hard to say. If the firms you are applying to are wanting or desiring LEED then yes it might be worth it. Otherwise, it might not be.
Carrera
Apr 4, 15 9:34 pm
My advice is to always do what others don’t, that’s where the niches are. Regardless of the world of LEED, others don’t, so do….applies to anything you can think of including getting construction experience….be what other aren’t and you’ll always be employed.
shellarchitect
Apr 5, 15 2:18 pm
My experience has been that the fresh grads are always with with the designers, taking advantage of the rendering skills that are more up-to-date than even the slightly older guys. Might help to play up that in your resume.
Got my first job as a physical model maker, I was never better at that then others in my class, but apparent ly I was the only one to mention it as a 'skill.'
Peter Normand
Apr 6, 15 1:04 pm
Chicago is doing well, for folks in the lower run of experience but Revit skills are most in demand.
I would suggest in your resume skills section list the core software competency that you have in years of experience, if you used Adobe Photoshop for 4 years in school list that as flowing
Adobe Photoshop 4 years
Revit 1.5 years
Auto cad 3 years
Since skills are your best selling point list them first.
Also look at temp agencies and get your resume on file, I landed a series of short back to back jobs with ta temp agency, once your in and racking up IDP as well as Revit hours your are going to be more valuable to a future employer and closer to the top of the pile when employers consider folks for permanent positions
Over and OUT
Peter N
natematt
Apr 6, 15 4:07 pm
^I've never heard anyone suggest listing skills first.
toosaturated
Apr 6, 15 4:23 pm
I would spend more time crafting your cover letters to each specific job. Once you have a solid one to work with, its easy to tailor it for each openings.
Network and don't be afraid to go after jobs that do not fully meet what you expect as a first job. As long as it is related some how, a lot of the skills are transferable and can be used in an architectural setting.
I know it's tough but I jumped through hoops to get to where I am now.
Mr_Wiggin
Apr 6, 15 6:52 pm
I got much the same advice from a head hunter, listing skills first when you don't have much relevant experience is the best way to go, and it makes sense. You want to sell what you can do, and what you're capable of rather than lead of with your sprinkling of summer jobs etc... Mine was a long list of blue collar jobs, being a roughneck at one point in time didn't get me much other than questions, that in addition to the other jobs that had no bearing on the a design profession made it imperative that I lead of with my strong points, and skills I have in spades...
s=r*(theta)
Apr 10, 15 2:24 pm
@natematt, Now you have
Over & out breaker breaker
natematt
Apr 10, 15 5:07 pm
Most people include so much bull in their skills section when they are recent grads though.
Apr 10, 15 5:42 pm
What does 4 years mean? 4 years at 15 minutes a year or does it mean you substantiate it with 40 hours a week or 2000 hours x 4 or 8000 hours worth. I would want to see that much time directly dedicated to that software otherwise it is not necessarily 4 years worth but maybe its only a year's worth. It could just me a month's worth because the skills were rarely used. So, when people list more years than they are alive then it can be an issue but at some point you'll know they are not at full-time worth.
Resume are often lies and bullshit anyway. I guess people embellish (lie) to make their stuff sound more than they really have ever had.
SpatialSojourner
Apr 10, 15 5:50 pm
@Natematt, Haha, yeahhh, I used to run the college of architecture's printers and lots of people would get their resumes printed and just glimpsing at them there were a lot of, "You know grasshopper?!?!?" Or "How come you state you know Illustrator but do all your vector work in Photoshop, even after I showed you how to do Illustrator?!?!" But I think it's a thing where students know that they probably aren't going to ever be tested on it at a firm but it can impress in interviews. All the firm's I've worked at can hardly CAD and SketchUp blows their minds.
SpatialSojourner
Apr 10, 15 6:05 pm
@Richard, Exactly, I hardly used SketchUp in college (learned it in high school) before coming to my first firm and so they made me come in on the Saturday after I started for some "SketchUp pro" to give me a tutorial. (I was overly honest in interviews about software usage) and I ended up teaching him a few things (simple stuff like alt and * to array things and / to divide things). The guy could list 6 years of exp and I could list 1 year.
It's the classic Catch 22 of course, about needing experience to get a job, and a job to get experience. Over and over again, I get asked if I have any previous firm experience, and it seems like every single job posting wants 1-5 years, 3-7 years, etc. Even for job titles and descriptions that sound pretty darn entry-level. Is it still so much of a buyer's market for talent at the lower rungs of the profession? Does my portfolio just suck? Did I go to the wrong school? How are people getting these first couple years of experience? Is it really asking so much for a firm to take on someone who is bright and dedicated, and put some resources into making them a productive staff member?
Anyway, I'm venting a bit here of course; but it would be good to get some other perspectives on this. I am in Seattle btw, and not really in a position to leave right now; but perhaps it's different elsewhere in the country?
What's your method for application? How many aps have you sent out vs. how many interviews have you gotten?
If they are asking for less than 3 years you might be able to get in, and the market is pretty good in most places right now, but there are always an abundance of applicants for entry level spots.
Luck, and the willingness to go where the work is. Seattle ain't it really. I got my M.Arch at a University in the NW, the only folks that got jobs out of school in Seattle were either from there, or had friends who already worked there. I knew that the market for newly minted grads in Seattle (the PNW in general) isn't the best, so I pulled up stakes and came to Texas, still difficult to get my foot in the door because of the reliance on alumni networks that most firms hire through, but I got in to a great firm that works on municipal and federal projects. However, it took me 5 months of sending in resumes, following up, polishing my portfolio, and applying for absolutely ever opening regardless. Actually this job there was never even a job listing posted, I just contacted the firm and wrote about myself, how I enjoyed seeing their work, and how I could be an asset. I wrote that email at the beginning of the hunt, didn't hear from the for 4 months, and got a call out of the blue. It just works like that sometimes, so get in the local AIA site, comb through all the offices in the area, make a list, and reach out. It's a frustrating process, but not an impossible proposition.
Keep in mind the Pacific Northwest area is recovering at a slower rate than other parts of the nation. This means they are trying to re-hire those laid off during the recession whether it be employees they had laid off or those laid off from one of the other firms. There is a really low demand in the architecture profession in the pacific northwest for those fresh out of college.
It is frustrating for sure.
Exasperating…..need to just get a toe in a door, any door at any salary……once you get a job, any job, you’ll be employable…..Co-op programs like Cincinnati’s make sure you graduate with some prerequisite “experience”, more schools should follow suite…..the idea that schools don’t place their graduates, after all that’s paid, baffles me.
Thanks everyone ... Carrera, I couldn't agree more! Natematt, I have been using a combination of applying to posted jobs and sending unsolicited applications to firms that interest me. Seems like a better interview rate with the unsolicited apps, but then they tend not to have a job that immediately needs filling. I would guess I've sent 150 to 200 applications with some degree of a customized cover letter, including quite a few to fairly generic non-architecture firm drafting jobs - structural engineering, project management, etc. Have gotten 6 or 8 interviews, but most not very serious. Definitely getting a better hit rate the last month or two, after tweaking my letter and resume for the hundredth time - so feels like I'm on a good trajectory; but still maybe months away from an actual offer, based on the general seriousness of the interviews, and their attitude about inexperienced applicants.
Hmm. Yeah, solicited/unsolicited is a dilemma. Unsolicited like to talk, but they don't seem to need people most of the time, so it doesn't seem like there are as many jobs out of it. Solicited obviously need people, but they are going to get a lot of apps and probably won't even get back to you if you're not in the top few applicants.
Your interview/app ratio is not great. I think the previous comment about the northwest being in a slow recovery is pretty true, I don't know many people moving up there for jobs, it's mostly other markets. However, in a general search I would hope you could get at least 1:10 app to interview ratio. It's hard to say if this is because of your materials or the market you are in.
I know you seemed opposed to the idea, but if possible I think you might be wise to start throwing a little wider net geographically if possible, there are only so many jobs in each local market.
It is possible that it is a little of both and if he looked to go a little south like California, he would have a little better market not that California is particular... great but there is some geographic push/pull mapping where projects have been going so that would be helpful to some degree.
Hmm, so out of curiosity where are the strong job markets for new architecture school graduates?
And here's another more specific question - at least two principals have told me that the ability to sit down and work productively in Revit is one of their key requirements for new hires. I have a decent feel for Revit, but of course the way you use it for school projects is not the way that it gets used for a building that is actually getting built. It seems like there must be a Revit boot camp somewhere, that I could attend for maybe a couple of weeks and get some focused practice on how the software is actually used in the workplace. Anyone have suggestions on that?
Fresh out of school, it's not likely that you'll need an advanced knowledge of revit - being familiar with the interface and being able to do basic modelling should be enough, as by definition, you've not yet been exposed to a real-world set of construction documents yet.
Competing on the basis of software knowledge is a dead-end. If you want a real leg up, go get a job with a contractor for a year. Understanding how things get built can give you a HUGE advantage.
Mountain Magic, www.revitforum.org. If you have 1-2 extra months for learning also pick Dynamo http://dynamobim.com, there are already useful real world implementations that could improve your productivity. But save it for last, know how to perform basic project exectution must be on first place. If you can model a blob but can't print pdf set or perform accurate area take-off you can get into troubles fast.
Learn how to use phases and schedules, organise shared parameters, create families with nested components, get familiar with categories and view filters.
> If you want a real leg up, go get a job with a contractor for a year.
> Understanding how things get built can give you a HUGE advantage.
Thanks ... what kind of job? I have about six months of hands-on construction experience, but mostly at a pretty menial level.
Incidentally, I was just looking at a Construction Estimating course at one of the local community colleges - would that be worthwhile?
And what about getting my LEED GA?
Some firms will like it if you are GA, but it's not likely to get you hired. I think bowling_ball's comment about revit is accurate. It's likely they wouldn't want someone who's never opened the program, but if you've used it you should probably be fine, unless they explicitly state they are looking for an expert.
Strong markets tend to be around the bigger cities. Just poke around the jobs on the forum here, and you'll see a lot of them are LA, SF, or NYC.
One thing you may want to know how to do effectively is creating 'components' / 'profiles' not just relying on what comes stock.
Creating profiles including custom profiles is one thing that will help you be skilled as needed.
As for LEED... that depends. Some are really for it and some are not. I think some firms that used to be super LEED where every employee had to be LEED accredited or whatever is somewhat distancing or rethinking that notion. It is hard to say. If the firms you are applying to are wanting or desiring LEED then yes it might be worth it. Otherwise, it might not be.
My advice is to always do what others don’t, that’s where the niches are. Regardless of the world of LEED, others don’t, so do….applies to anything you can think of including getting construction experience….be what other aren’t and you’ll always be employed.
My experience has been that the fresh grads are always with with the designers, taking advantage of the rendering skills that are more up-to-date than even the slightly older guys. Might help to play up that in your resume. Got my first job as a physical model maker, I was never better at that then others in my class, but apparent ly I was the only one to mention it as a 'skill.'
Chicago is doing well, for folks in the lower run of experience but Revit skills are most in demand.
I would suggest in your resume skills section list the core software competency that you have in years of experience, if you used Adobe Photoshop for 4 years in school list that as flowing
Adobe Photoshop 4 years
Revit 1.5 years
Auto cad 3 years
Since skills are your best selling point list them first.
Also look at temp agencies and get your resume on file, I landed a series of short back to back jobs with ta temp agency, once your in and racking up IDP as well as Revit hours your are going to be more valuable to a future employer and closer to the top of the pile when employers consider folks for permanent positions
Over and OUT
Peter N
^I've never heard anyone suggest listing skills first.
I would spend more time crafting your cover letters to each specific job. Once you have a solid one to work with, its easy to tailor it for each openings.
Network and don't be afraid to go after jobs that do not fully meet what you expect as a first job. As long as it is related some how, a lot of the skills are transferable and can be used in an architectural setting.
I know it's tough but I jumped through hoops to get to where I am now.
I got much the same advice from a head hunter, listing skills first when you don't have much relevant experience is the best way to go, and it makes sense. You want to sell what you can do, and what you're capable of rather than lead of with your sprinkling of summer jobs etc... Mine was a long list of blue collar jobs, being a roughneck at one point in time didn't get me much other than questions, that in addition to the other jobs that had no bearing on the a design profession made it imperative that I lead of with my strong points, and skills I have in spades...
@natematt, Now you have
Over & out breaker breaker
Most people include so much bull in their skills section when they are recent grads though.
What does 4 years mean? 4 years at 15 minutes a year or does it mean you substantiate it with 40 hours a week or 2000 hours x 4 or 8000 hours worth. I would want to see that much time directly dedicated to that software otherwise it is not necessarily 4 years worth but maybe its only a year's worth. It could just me a month's worth because the skills were rarely used. So, when people list more years than they are alive then it can be an issue but at some point you'll know they are not at full-time worth.
Resume are often lies and bullshit anyway. I guess people embellish (lie) to make their stuff sound more than they really have ever had.
@Natematt, Haha, yeahhh, I used to run the college of architecture's printers and lots of people would get their resumes printed and just glimpsing at them there were a lot of, "You know grasshopper?!?!?" Or "How come you state you know Illustrator but do all your vector work in Photoshop, even after I showed you how to do Illustrator?!?!" But I think it's a thing where students know that they probably aren't going to ever be tested on it at a firm but it can impress in interviews. All the firm's I've worked at can hardly CAD and SketchUp blows their minds.
@Richard, Exactly, I hardly used SketchUp in college (learned it in high school) before coming to my first firm and so they made me come in on the Saturday after I started for some "SketchUp pro" to give me a tutorial. (I was overly honest in interviews about software usage) and I ended up teaching him a few things (simple stuff like alt and * to array things and / to divide things). The guy could list 6 years of exp and I could list 1 year.