Hello, I am interested in compiling some examples of the best firms for women out there.
I work in a fairly small firm, with mostly men, and am concerned as to what will happen when/once it's time for me to have children. I wonder about what kind of work environment is available that would satisfy aspects such as: schedule flexibility, paid/unpaid maternity leaves, paid time off, general studio culture, etc. I would hate to lose my career over my desire to have and be with my family.
Thoughts appreciated!
natematt
Feb 10, 15 2:13 am
Seems to me like you would be wise to look at the employment and leadership patterns of women within firms. If they have a large number of women in senior positions then it seems like a pretty good chance they've had some people go through there with similar interests in mind.
There are some natural conditions of firms that are also important. A lot of big name firms, especially boutique ones, won't leave much time for work/life balance.
x-jla
Feb 10, 15 2:17 am
firms in europe.
Non Sequitur
Feb 10, 15 8:25 am
Saudi-Arabia perhaps?
Donna Sink
Feb 10, 15 8:54 am
Here is an Architect Magazine report on the "best" firms according to a variety of criteria. I don't know that "treatment of women" is a data point, but I think you can infer that firms who focus on intern development, mentoring, work-life balance etc are likely going to be more employee-friendly.
I second natematt's point about women in leadership positions: just anecdotally, my first major job after graduation was in a firm with one female and two male partners, and in that case the presence of a woman at the highest level had an enormously positive influence in the way the firm worked. Your mileage may vary.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 10, 15 9:10 am
At my firm every night is Ladies Night.
curtkram
Feb 10, 15 9:25 am
miles' firm may not be a good fit for you. . . .
x intern
Feb 10, 15 10:18 am
Larger firms will typically have the benefits you talk about. A small firm typically can't afford to pay one of there few employees for a decent amount of maternity leave. Flexibility is also an issue at small firms because for every hour you have off someone else will have to pick up that hour. I've been dealing with this as an Architect with a interior designer wife and three kids (two of them twins) and all under 4. People try to be understanding but when the time off becomes problematic your employer may understandably get a little irritated. Its nothing you can help and all you can do is try to make up the time but in the end you just have to roll with it and hope for the best. You probably wont be climbing the ladder of responsibility and leadership for a few years unless you have a really strong support network in your area (family and friends) that can pick up the slack when you have sick kids or deadlines. In the end you will probably realize there are more important things in life than slaving away at a computer for the guys in the big office anyway.
natematt
Feb 10, 15 11:46 am
^this was my knee-jerk reaction as well. However, I think a lot of smaller firms can also be more tight knit, and more willing to put the effort into holding on to people.
In response to what Donna said. I feel uncomfortable with firms that are unusually high concentration of either gender, not just because of any gender bias that may be present, but rather because it is an indicator of an unhealthy hierarchy of power within the firm.
TIQM
Feb 10, 15 12:28 pm
Our office has currently about 40 people (I say about because we've been hiring a bit lately, and I haven't taken the latest count), and we have 20 women. Of four principals, one is a woman. Our CFO is a woman.
Carrera
Feb 10, 15 3:42 pm
Wait, I thought there were no differences between men & women...oh I remember, there are differences when women say there are difference.
x-jla
Feb 10, 15 4:18 pm
EKE works at a girly firm.
Feb 10, 15 5:18 pm
It is sexist for men to say there is a difference but not when a woman says it.... WTF.... it is like it is not ok if a white man is racist but ok if a black man was. I thought it was not okay whatever your skin color is.
What gives with the double standards? Either everyone play by one single standard or no one plays by any standard at all. What's your choice all?
x intern
Feb 10, 15 5:53 pm
To be fair we don't have to grow another human being in our stomach. If we did, I bet we would expect some time off. It should be common practice or law. The Europeans seem to have a much better stance on medical insurance and maternity.
Carrera
Feb 10, 15 6:26 pm
Question: If men & women are to be paid equally (and I agree they should) how should an employer look at the cost of paid maternity leave? Shouldn’t that extra cost be deducted from a woman’s “Equal” pay so to keep pay equal?
DeTwan
Feb 10, 15 6:50 pm
Oh snap, Carrera gonna walk the line. Is he right, is woman's equality worth more than man's if they are gonna make babies? How is that equal?
DeTwan
Feb 10, 15 6:55 pm
Someone popped a bottle of Dom Perignon tonight!
DeTwan
Feb 10, 15 6:57 pm
Somehow I feel Balkins and Carrera are the same handle for one individual.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 10, 15 7:00 pm
Why shouldn't fathers get paid leave for childbirth?
gruen
Feb 10, 15 7:05 pm
my firm is horrid for women. zero women, 1 man. no paid time off for anything and my boss is an a$$
DeTwan
Feb 10, 15 7:07 pm
What if Balkins was really just Willem Dafoe....?
DeTwan
Feb 10, 15 7:17 pm
I suspect that is why he isn't smiling in his picture here on archinect.
DeTwan
Feb 10, 15 7:21 pm
My grandfather should have gotten paid leave for me....
Carrera
Feb 10, 15 7:24 pm
Miles, that would solve it, both would get paid time off, driving wages down for both, constituting a pay cut of only 15%, with student debt that would only reduce their annual income by 22%.
DeTwan
Feb 10, 15 7:32 pm
I think we found the next issue to run on in America.
Whom is supporting this issue in the next election?....I heard Glenn Beck is for this!.....Glenn Beck for 2016!!!
DeTwan
Feb 10, 15 7:34 pm
In Uruguay they actually give both the father and mother maturity leave....that is why I like to pronounce Uruguay as "you're a gay!"
curtkram
Feb 10, 15 7:53 pm
is the idea of not paying for maternity leave just an extension of general contempt for your employees, or possibly against all people who work for a living?
Carrera
Feb 10, 15 8:17 pm
Curt, it’s just economics, money in – money out, it has to balance. Some bosses may be asses but none are stupid.
Donna Sink
Feb 10, 15 8:22 pm
Sweden gives both mother and father paid leave for 8 months (maybe a year, I can't remember).
Some women don't get pregnant or have children. Some men don't have children. Some men want to take parental leave, some don't.
Some men break their legs skiing and get disability for six months, so do some women.
If a couple wants to have biological children, the woman has to go through pregnancy, which has an absurdly high risk of death in the US - in 2013, women died at a rate of 18.5 out of 100,000 due to complications in pregnancy/birth. For Black women in New York City that rate was tripled. Well over 100 out of 1,000 pregnancies included dangerous conditions such as infection, eclampsia, or hemorrhage. These statistics are all for women; I couldn't find any statistics on death or health complications due to pregnancy of men. Wonder why.
Women routinely pay much higher amounts for the same service: haircuts, dry cleaning, clothing, insurance.
Women have to expend *significantly* more energy being concerned about personal safety when walking down a street. This is true 24/7/365 for her entire life.
Carrera, you want to keep up with bitching and moaning about how unfair it is that women get treated soooooooooo much better than men?
Carrera
Feb 10, 15 9:35 pm
Donna, Economics of managing an architectural office has nothing to do with a persons station in life, you can add polio to your list and it wouldn't change the economic equation. While there are plenty of corporations hoarding cash architectural firms aren't among them (the majority) it's largely hand-to-mouth.... where does the money come from?
There are about 100 economic differences between Sweden and the U.S.in fact everything is different except for perhaps breathing.... probably my #1 place to live....I didn't invent this system we are forced to live with, in fact I don't agree with these things at all, but in this system when you push things, things push back.
While I may have had my tongue in my cheek please cut and paste my "bitching and moaning" remarks and I'll retract them, because I think that most of the "bitching and moaning" is coming from the visitors bleachers.
that is unequivocally not true. i mean, it's not universal either way....
what does 9 months of pto cost over the span of a person's career? i suppose if you have high turnover, that number would start to get big. hiring people who want to pop out a baby every year just to get time off would be expensive.
on the other hand, reasonable people starting a reasonable family in a reasonable firm where there is an attempt made at employee retention and the quality of life that would go along with that, i would think that costs ends up being at least close to equivalent to training new people and fixing the mistakes made by the people who don't give a shit because they know they won't be working there in a year, anyway, wouldn't it?
also, i would think there would be diminishing productivity due to lost sleep and distracted/refocused priorities during that time anyway, for both the new mother and new father. a bit of time off, prorated over long enough time, should be a bearable expense. unless you're only concerned about profit over the next couple months.
then again, if it's just about making as much money as you can as quick as you can because you're an entrepreneur, then i suppose paying your employees as little as possible is always best. paying them less for being female is just an excuse that's as good as any other.
midlander
Feb 10, 15 9:41 pm
If it came to it I'd rather cut SS retirement benefits and get family leave. At least you can use the time when it's worth something. More benefit to the country too than a bunch of old people watching TV all day.
midlander
Feb 10, 15 9:43 pm
(mistake post - deleted)
Carrera
Feb 10, 15 10:47 pm
Curt, re: 9 months leave in span of a career- problem is there is no such thing as a career with a single company anymore, people don't stay long enough to make that work. Agree that keeping people content pays benefits for everybody, but with both mom's & dads working who is managing the kids? I had flex-time which I think is the best solution but even then that wasn't enough....40 hours away from the kids is 40 hours. My wife just closed her private school for tomorrow because the majority of her teachers canceled because of kid scheduling/sick problems.... just don't think the two work very well together for many and admit that it's a hell of a problem with no clear solution.
Hope the "entrepreneur" comment wasn't directed at me. I never made any money in architecture and any real money I made was a solo effort and not at the expense of anybody. While the world is full of people who think that "the less I pay the more I make", I'm not one of them. I also think you would be hard presses to point at any architect that thinks like that.
Millender, don't be too quick to give up your SS benefits.... with all the shit that could happen to you economically over the next 30+ years that may be all you'll have when the time comes.
curtkram
Feb 10, 15 11:41 pm
so carrera, is your view of the world that women should stay home while men work?
obviously women carry the child to term. that's not negotiable, and it's not sexist, and it's one of those areas where it's ok to say women are different (where it's typically wrong to say men and women are different is when you say one is incompetent due to their gender). stay-at-home dad could be viable, but you've already suggested women have to get paid less because of the potential that they could have to take time off work due to the delivery of a baby. that means, if you chose to have a stay at home dad, you're gimping your family income by 25% or whatever it is now.
from what i've seen, a single income family often isn't really that viable is it?
maybe the problem, as you point out, is that people don't stay at their job long enough. who's problem is that to fix? should the government step in? it's been mentioned here many times that people in architecture have to quit their jobs to get decent raises or to get promotions, right? can't that be fixed? if so, who's responsibility would be? the intern?
i understand you're saying that you don't see a clear solution. so, though you don't like it, you've decided that the best way for you to approach the problem, since there aren't better options, is to just pay women less?
re: entrepreneur, i think that term is just used wrong the past few years. it's been taken over by the people who think ayn rand was a reasonable economist, and that greed is good, and all that. imho, a good entrepreneur would want to build a company rather than take everything they can out of a company. that doesn't seem to be a popular belief anymore though.
midlander
Feb 11, 15 1:13 am
I think the economic problem Carrera points out is real and we shouldn't single out firm owners for the blame on this. Very few architecture firms (or any other small businesses) are reliably profitable. The problem is most acute for small firms that can't possibly keep enough staff onboard to efficiently cover extended absences for any reason.
I know of a couple young women running small firms - they can't afford to pay employees for parental leave either. One brings her own son to the office when he's not at daycare because she can't take the day off herself...
The more reasonable solution, as proposed in the link I posted above, would be a kind of social insurance system like unemployment insurance or social security which covered the cost of parental leave. In theory it could reimburse businesses for the inconvenience of an absence, though I don't think her proposal goes that far. It makes sense and puts small and large businesses on a more even footing.
Carrera
Feb 11, 15 1:35 am
Curt, both of my daughters are "stay-at-home-mom's" and its an economic sacrifice the way things are today. My wife stayed at home till the kids were in school but we bought a school and between being the owner and being home by 3, during school breaks and summer she was able to manage things, all three have masters degrees but realize that they couldn't be 100% to everything and everybody so they found ways/careers (both daughters run internet businesses from home) that enabled them to be 100% home & work. Think you're reading me wrong.... I'm not against anything except for the fact that I don't think it's the employers responsibility to fix this.
How is it "equal" for men & women to be paid equal and everything is going fine then one day the female comes in and says "I'm having a baby and I'm going to take 6 months off and your going to pay me while I'm gone".... who exactly is doing the sacrificing? How is that fair to another employee who choses not to? Wouldn't it be necessary to compensate the other employees an equal sum to be fair & equal? If a person gets cancer they don't get time off that's why they have disability insurance..... seems we need the same for paternity.
Your family isn't responsible for my business decisions and my business isn't responsible for your family decisions. Perhaps because of this predicament all need more paid time off and if all companies were made to do it universality it would work....lets start with a 4 day work week for everybody:)
Miles Jaffe
Feb 11, 15 8:57 am
Another side of this is discrimination via social security where stay at home moms are penalized for "not working".
I know a woman who spent her life raising a family: her social security check is $200/mo., half of which is taken to pay Medicare. Did she not contribute to society by raising a family? Would her kids have been better off raised in a household without such parental support?
Meanwhile every scumbag gazillionaire who probably doesn't even pay taxes collects full benefits. On top of that their FICA is capped on around $100k of earned income (not dividends or capital gains etc.), so that if the earn $1m they pay about 1.5% where anyone making less than $100k pays 15.6%.
But what do you want in a country where political leadership is bought and sold like commodities on Wall Street?
Miles Jaffe
Feb 11, 15 8:59 am
To the OP: move to some civilized country while you're young so you can have a real life.
Volunteer
Feb 11, 15 9:33 am
I think the solution is to have the new mom just work from home for the amount of time she feels comfortable with. The firm cuts her some slack during this time but she is pretty much up to speed when she does return.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 11, 15 10:38 am
Maternity leave policies are such so that the government can raise kids through pre-school and day-care programs.
For what it is worth, I've never worked at a firm that had women in any position other than entry or mid-level. One firm I worked for promoted all the mid-level architects to principal one day... all the males anyways, every single one of them. The sole female who it seemed should have been afforded the same promotion quit shortly thereafter and she stopped at my and the other female intern's desks on the way out to give us the scoop so that we could temper expectations accordingly. :) No architecture firm allows working from home or part-time work that I am familiar with. My goal was to be self-employed by the time I had kids, so that is what I did, but it isn't easy, I have to be 2 places at once and I swear it is causing brain damage.
Donna Sink
Feb 11, 15 11:07 am
Carrera, it seems I misunderstood what we mean when we say "paid leave". What I think is that the government should have paid family leave, for both mothers and fathers. We are the only Western country that does not, for heaven's sake! I don't think individual companies should have to pay for six months of leave, but if both fathers AND mothers were able/allowed/required to take time off work when a new baby arrives, then it would stop being a gender discrimination issue at all.
Source: an admittedly left-leaning website. The entire article is good, and discusses how the US states that offer more have not seen any negative economic impact from it.
Donna Sink
Feb 11, 15 11:10 am
tint, this: Maternity leave policies are such so that the government can raise kids through pre-school and day-care programs just sounds so tin-foil-hat-wearing. The "government" doesn't mandate *which* program you choose to put your kids in. You can choose one where they start college prep at age six months or one where they do fingerpainting all day until they're 5.
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 11, 15 11:16 am
Both sound like programs where kids sit in a room together only with their peers instead of engaging in the wider world around them. I don't care how wonderful any of these programs claim to be, I take my kid on a field trip to a museum or a park or something 3-4 times a week, sometimes more. No pre-school can do that. Moms can.
curtkram
Feb 11, 15 11:25 am
to respond to your last post carerra, if you're in a position to buy a school for your wife to work at, economic sacrifices look different to you than they do to me. even so, i'm in a pretty good position financially, having no dependents or health problems (though i am saddled with student loan debt like many of us). i can recognize that a lot of people have a harder time financially than i do. i don't think my judgement is as clouded by projecting my own environment onto others.
as to what an employer's responsibility is, surely you understand that the decisions you make have a fairly significant effect on other people's lives? you are responsible for the decisions you make. if someone can't have a family for fear of what your decision, or lack of decision, will be, then how do you not own that?
what you prioritize in your life and business, which could be simply greed or maybe the long-term growth of the company or the well-being of other human beings, influences the lives of all those around you. you're not responsible for someone else's choice on who to love or whether to take birth control. you are, however, responsible for the decisions you make and the effects of those decisions aren't you?
Wilma Buttfit
Feb 11, 15 11:34 am
In case anyone is interested, we call it Wild Kindergarten, which is a real type of school in Germany, Denmark, and Switzerland. We don't do it exactly like they do, since we are one-on-one we just kinda make it up as we go. If I had the resources to, I'd start a program to serve other kids too. I'd have to get a bus or a van though. My husband needs to be richer so he can buy that for me!
mightyaa
Feb 11, 15 12:32 pm
Maternity is one thing; I just sort of treat it the same as a major medical procedure. It’s not like I’m going to be an arse about if your spouse has open heart surgery and not give you time to be with your spouse during the procedure and recovery. It’s just that the pregnant infection is specific to women, so some folks think it’s a gender problem. I just don’t think like that at all; it’s a major medical condition that afflicts women :) And I've got months to plan around it with your workload.
The nasty one is those sick kids, extended school breaks, etc. It's also sort of a test for you on how well you can manage time and coordination. Some just suck at it. So, as an employer, if I see you can't manage your own time, do you really think I'll put you in charge of a team to manage their time? Nothing gender specific about that. It's just that more Mom's out there tend to take on those roles in the family. I know my wife won't let me do the doctor's or school parent meeting because I don't say the things she'd say... by default, her way is 'right', and my way wasn't her way.... :P
Saint in the City
Feb 11, 15 12:43 pm
Another side of this is discrimination via social security where stay at home moms are penalized for "not working".
Miles -- so by the same logic, stay-at-home moms should also then get the maternity leave compensation as well? A check for 3 or 4 or 9 months upon birth of child? Hmm...
Carrera
Feb 11, 15 1:56 pm
Curt, think I’m following mightyaa on it being “medical” in regards to employment. Would defiantly allow the leave but would argue who should pay for it. Thinking this trough I think this should be handled with insurance…the company would cover everybody, men & women, to create a pool for the insurance company and the leave could be taken by men and women, making it equal.
I guess companies make decisions that affect families…did a JV with a big firm in Texas and while there for a meeting one of the VP’s was notified to be in Saudi – Stat. He called his wife and left, didn’t even pack a bag and had no idea how long he’d be gone….missed dinner, softball, chores, everything. Should the company president have said instead “John, they need you in Saudi right away, could you please go home and meet with your family and discuss whether you can go?” I honestly think today that families affect business more than businesses affect families…with both working, all the time off managing kids, texting them all day…running home because Jonny is running around the backyard naked….there’s no place on a timesheet for family management, perhaps there should be.
Miles Jaffe
Feb 11, 15 1:58 pm
By your logic maybe. I was talking about social security.
Hello, I am interested in compiling some examples of the best firms for women out there.
I work in a fairly small firm, with mostly men, and am concerned as to what will happen when/once it's time for me to have children. I wonder about what kind of work environment is available that would satisfy aspects such as: schedule flexibility, paid/unpaid maternity leaves, paid time off, general studio culture, etc. I would hate to lose my career over my desire to have and be with my family.
Thoughts appreciated!
Seems to me like you would be wise to look at the employment and leadership patterns of women within firms. If they have a large number of women in senior positions then it seems like a pretty good chance they've had some people go through there with similar interests in mind.
There are some natural conditions of firms that are also important. A lot of big name firms, especially boutique ones, won't leave much time for work/life balance.
firms in europe.
Saudi-Arabia perhaps?
Here is an Architect Magazine report on the "best" firms according to a variety of criteria. I don't know that "treatment of women" is a data point, but I think you can infer that firms who focus on intern development, mentoring, work-life balance etc are likely going to be more employee-friendly.
I second natematt's point about women in leadership positions: just anecdotally, my first major job after graduation was in a firm with one female and two male partners, and in that case the presence of a woman at the highest level had an enormously positive influence in the way the firm worked. Your mileage may vary.
At my firm every night is Ladies Night.
miles' firm may not be a good fit for you. . . .
Larger firms will typically have the benefits you talk about. A small firm typically can't afford to pay one of there few employees for a decent amount of maternity leave. Flexibility is also an issue at small firms because for every hour you have off someone else will have to pick up that hour. I've been dealing with this as an Architect with a interior designer wife and three kids (two of them twins) and all under 4. People try to be understanding but when the time off becomes problematic your employer may understandably get a little irritated. Its nothing you can help and all you can do is try to make up the time but in the end you just have to roll with it and hope for the best. You probably wont be climbing the ladder of responsibility and leadership for a few years unless you have a really strong support network in your area (family and friends) that can pick up the slack when you have sick kids or deadlines. In the end you will probably realize there are more important things in life than slaving away at a computer for the guys in the big office anyway.
^this was my knee-jerk reaction as well. However, I think a lot of smaller firms can also be more tight knit, and more willing to put the effort into holding on to people.
In response to what Donna said. I feel uncomfortable with firms that are unusually high concentration of either gender, not just because of any gender bias that may be present, but rather because it is an indicator of an unhealthy hierarchy of power within the firm.
Our office has currently about 40 people (I say about because we've been hiring a bit lately, and I haven't taken the latest count), and we have 20 women. Of four principals, one is a woman. Our CFO is a woman.
Wait, I thought there were no differences between men & women...oh I remember, there are differences when women say there are difference.
EKE works at a girly firm.
It is sexist for men to say there is a difference but not when a woman says it.... WTF.... it is like it is not ok if a white man is racist but ok if a black man was. I thought it was not okay whatever your skin color is.
What gives with the double standards? Either everyone play by one single standard or no one plays by any standard at all. What's your choice all?
To be fair we don't have to grow another human being in our stomach. If we did, I bet we would expect some time off. It should be common practice or law. The Europeans seem to have a much better stance on medical insurance and maternity.
Question: If men & women are to be paid equally (and I agree they should) how should an employer look at the cost of paid maternity leave? Shouldn’t that extra cost be deducted from a woman’s “Equal” pay so to keep pay equal?
Oh snap, Carrera gonna walk the line. Is he right, is woman's equality worth more than man's if they are gonna make babies? How is that equal?
Someone popped a bottle of Dom Perignon tonight!
Somehow I feel Balkins and Carrera are the same handle for one individual.
Why shouldn't fathers get paid leave for childbirth?
my firm is horrid for women. zero women, 1 man. no paid time off for anything and my boss is an a$$
What if Balkins was really just Willem Dafoe....?
I suspect that is why he isn't smiling in his picture here on archinect.
Miles, that would solve it, both would get paid time off, driving wages down for both, constituting a pay cut of only 15%, with student debt that would only reduce their annual income by 22%.
I think we found the next issue to run on in America.
Whom is supporting this issue in the next election?....I heard Glenn Beck is for this!.....Glenn Beck for 2016!!!
In Uruguay they actually give both the father and mother maturity leave....that is why I like to pronounce Uruguay as "you're a gay!"
is the idea of not paying for maternity leave just an extension of general contempt for your employees, or possibly against all people who work for a living?
Curt, it’s just economics, money in – money out, it has to balance. Some bosses may be asses but none are stupid.
Sweden gives both mother and father paid leave for 8 months (maybe a year, I can't remember).
Some women don't get pregnant or have children. Some men don't have children. Some men want to take parental leave, some don't.
Some men break their legs skiing and get disability for six months, so do some women.
If a couple wants to have biological children, the woman has to go through pregnancy, which has an absurdly high risk of death in the US - in 2013, women died at a rate of 18.5 out of 100,000 due to complications in pregnancy/birth. For Black women in New York City that rate was tripled. Well over 100 out of 1,000 pregnancies included dangerous conditions such as infection, eclampsia, or hemorrhage. These statistics are all for women; I couldn't find any statistics on death or health complications due to pregnancy of men. Wonder why.
Women routinely pay much higher amounts for the same service: haircuts, dry cleaning, clothing, insurance.
Women have to expend *significantly* more energy being concerned about personal safety when walking down a street. This is true 24/7/365 for her entire life.
Carrera, you want to keep up with bitching and moaning about how unfair it is that women get treated soooooooooo much better than men?
Donna, Economics of managing an architectural office has nothing to do with a persons station in life, you can add polio to your list and it wouldn't change the economic equation. While there are plenty of corporations hoarding cash architectural firms aren't among them (the majority) it's largely hand-to-mouth.... where does the money come from?
There are about 100 economic differences between Sweden and the U.S.in fact everything is different except for perhaps breathing.... probably my #1 place to live....I didn't invent this system we are forced to live with, in fact I don't agree with these things at all, but in this system when you push things, things push back.
While I may have had my tongue in my cheek please cut and paste my "bitching and moaning" remarks and I'll retract them, because I think that most of the "bitching and moaning" is coming from the visitors bleachers.
@DeTwan
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/09/kirsten-gillibrand-paid-leave_n_6644936.html
but none are stupid.
that is unequivocally not true. i mean, it's not universal either way....
what does 9 months of pto cost over the span of a person's career? i suppose if you have high turnover, that number would start to get big. hiring people who want to pop out a baby every year just to get time off would be expensive.
on the other hand, reasonable people starting a reasonable family in a reasonable firm where there is an attempt made at employee retention and the quality of life that would go along with that, i would think that costs ends up being at least close to equivalent to training new people and fixing the mistakes made by the people who don't give a shit because they know they won't be working there in a year, anyway, wouldn't it?
also, i would think there would be diminishing productivity due to lost sleep and distracted/refocused priorities during that time anyway, for both the new mother and new father. a bit of time off, prorated over long enough time, should be a bearable expense. unless you're only concerned about profit over the next couple months.
then again, if it's just about making as much money as you can as quick as you can because you're an entrepreneur, then i suppose paying your employees as little as possible is always best. paying them less for being female is just an excuse that's as good as any other.
If it came to it I'd rather cut SS retirement benefits and get family leave. At least you can use the time when it's worth something. More benefit to the country too than a bunch of old people watching TV all day.
(mistake post - deleted)
Curt, re: 9 months leave in span of a career- problem is there is no such thing as a career with a single company anymore, people don't stay long enough to make that work. Agree that keeping people content pays benefits for everybody, but with both mom's & dads working who is managing the kids? I had flex-time which I think is the best solution but even then that wasn't enough....40 hours away from the kids is 40 hours. My wife just closed her private school for tomorrow because the majority of her teachers canceled because of kid scheduling/sick problems.... just don't think the two work very well together for many and admit that it's a hell of a problem with no clear solution.
Hope the "entrepreneur" comment wasn't directed at me. I never made any money in architecture and any real money I made was a solo effort and not at the expense of anybody. While the world is full of people who think that "the less I pay the more I make", I'm not one of them. I also think you would be hard presses to point at any architect that thinks like that.
Millender, don't be too quick to give up your SS benefits.... with all the shit that could happen to you economically over the next 30+ years that may be all you'll have when the time comes.
so carrera, is your view of the world that women should stay home while men work?
obviously women carry the child to term. that's not negotiable, and it's not sexist, and it's one of those areas where it's ok to say women are different (where it's typically wrong to say men and women are different is when you say one is incompetent due to their gender). stay-at-home dad could be viable, but you've already suggested women have to get paid less because of the potential that they could have to take time off work due to the delivery of a baby. that means, if you chose to have a stay at home dad, you're gimping your family income by 25% or whatever it is now.
from what i've seen, a single income family often isn't really that viable is it?
maybe the problem, as you point out, is that people don't stay at their job long enough. who's problem is that to fix? should the government step in? it's been mentioned here many times that people in architecture have to quit their jobs to get decent raises or to get promotions, right? can't that be fixed? if so, who's responsibility would be? the intern?
i understand you're saying that you don't see a clear solution. so, though you don't like it, you've decided that the best way for you to approach the problem, since there aren't better options, is to just pay women less?
re: entrepreneur, i think that term is just used wrong the past few years. it's been taken over by the people who think ayn rand was a reasonable economist, and that greed is good, and all that. imho, a good entrepreneur would want to build a company rather than take everything they can out of a company. that doesn't seem to be a popular belief anymore though.
I think the economic problem Carrera points out is real and we shouldn't single out firm owners for the blame on this. Very few architecture firms (or any other small businesses) are reliably profitable. The problem is most acute for small firms that can't possibly keep enough staff onboard to efficiently cover extended absences for any reason.
I know of a couple young women running small firms - they can't afford to pay employees for parental leave either. One brings her own son to the office when he's not at daycare because she can't take the day off herself...
The more reasonable solution, as proposed in the link I posted above, would be a kind of social insurance system like unemployment insurance or social security which covered the cost of parental leave. In theory it could reimburse businesses for the inconvenience of an absence, though I don't think her proposal goes that far. It makes sense and puts small and large businesses on a more even footing.
Curt, both of my daughters are "stay-at-home-mom's" and its an economic sacrifice the way things are today. My wife stayed at home till the kids were in school but we bought a school and between being the owner and being home by 3, during school breaks and summer she was able to manage things, all three have masters degrees but realize that they couldn't be 100% to everything and everybody so they found ways/careers (both daughters run internet businesses from home) that enabled them to be 100% home & work. Think you're reading me wrong.... I'm not against anything except for the fact that I don't think it's the employers responsibility to fix this.
How is it "equal" for men & women to be paid equal and everything is going fine then one day the female comes in and says "I'm having a baby and I'm going to take 6 months off and your going to pay me while I'm gone".... who exactly is doing the sacrificing? How is that fair to another employee who choses not to? Wouldn't it be necessary to compensate the other employees an equal sum to be fair & equal? If a person gets cancer they don't get time off that's why they have disability insurance..... seems we need the same for paternity.
Your family isn't responsible for my business decisions and my business isn't responsible for your family decisions. Perhaps because of this predicament all need more paid time off and if all companies were made to do it universality it would work....lets start with a 4 day work week for everybody:)
Another side of this is discrimination via social security where stay at home moms are penalized for "not working".
I know a woman who spent her life raising a family: her social security check is $200/mo., half of which is taken to pay Medicare. Did she not contribute to society by raising a family? Would her kids have been better off raised in a household without such parental support?
Meanwhile every scumbag gazillionaire who probably doesn't even pay taxes collects full benefits. On top of that their FICA is capped on around $100k of earned income (not dividends or capital gains etc.), so that if the earn $1m they pay about 1.5% where anyone making less than $100k pays 15.6%.
But what do you want in a country where political leadership is bought and sold like commodities on Wall Street?
To the OP: move to some civilized country while you're young so you can have a real life.
I think the solution is to have the new mom just work from home for the amount of time she feels comfortable with. The firm cuts her some slack during this time but she is pretty much up to speed when she does return.
Maternity leave policies are such so that the government can raise kids through pre-school and day-care programs.
For what it is worth, I've never worked at a firm that had women in any position other than entry or mid-level. One firm I worked for promoted all the mid-level architects to principal one day... all the males anyways, every single one of them. The sole female who it seemed should have been afforded the same promotion quit shortly thereafter and she stopped at my and the other female intern's desks on the way out to give us the scoop so that we could temper expectations accordingly. :) No architecture firm allows working from home or part-time work that I am familiar with. My goal was to be self-employed by the time I had kids, so that is what I did, but it isn't easy, I have to be 2 places at once and I swear it is causing brain damage.
Carrera, it seems I misunderstood what we mean when we say "paid leave". What I think is that the government should have paid family leave, for both mothers and fathers. We are the only Western country that does not, for heaven's sake! I don't think individual companies should have to pay for six months of leave, but if both fathers AND mothers were able/allowed/required to take time off work when a new baby arrives, then it would stop being a gender discrimination issue at all.
Source: an admittedly left-leaning website. The entire article is good, and discusses how the US states that offer more have not seen any negative economic impact from it.
tint, this: Maternity leave policies are such so that the government can raise kids through pre-school and day-care programs just sounds so tin-foil-hat-wearing. The "government" doesn't mandate *which* program you choose to put your kids in. You can choose one where they start college prep at age six months or one where they do fingerpainting all day until they're 5.
Both sound like programs where kids sit in a room together only with their peers instead of engaging in the wider world around them. I don't care how wonderful any of these programs claim to be, I take my kid on a field trip to a museum or a park or something 3-4 times a week, sometimes more. No pre-school can do that. Moms can.
to respond to your last post carerra, if you're in a position to buy a school for your wife to work at, economic sacrifices look different to you than they do to me. even so, i'm in a pretty good position financially, having no dependents or health problems (though i am saddled with student loan debt like many of us). i can recognize that a lot of people have a harder time financially than i do. i don't think my judgement is as clouded by projecting my own environment onto others.
as to what an employer's responsibility is, surely you understand that the decisions you make have a fairly significant effect on other people's lives? you are responsible for the decisions you make. if someone can't have a family for fear of what your decision, or lack of decision, will be, then how do you not own that?
what you prioritize in your life and business, which could be simply greed or maybe the long-term growth of the company or the well-being of other human beings, influences the lives of all those around you. you're not responsible for someone else's choice on who to love or whether to take birth control. you are, however, responsible for the decisions you make and the effects of those decisions aren't you?
In case anyone is interested, we call it Wild Kindergarten, which is a real type of school in Germany, Denmark, and Switzerland. We don't do it exactly like they do, since we are one-on-one we just kinda make it up as we go. If I had the resources to, I'd start a program to serve other kids too. I'd have to get a bus or a van though. My husband needs to be richer so he can buy that for me!
Maternity is one thing; I just sort of treat it the same as a major medical procedure. It’s not like I’m going to be an arse about if your spouse has open heart surgery and not give you time to be with your spouse during the procedure and recovery. It’s just that the pregnant infection is specific to women, so some folks think it’s a gender problem. I just don’t think like that at all; it’s a major medical condition that afflicts women :) And I've got months to plan around it with your workload.
The nasty one is those sick kids, extended school breaks, etc. It's also sort of a test for you on how well you can manage time and coordination. Some just suck at it. So, as an employer, if I see you can't manage your own time, do you really think I'll put you in charge of a team to manage their time? Nothing gender specific about that. It's just that more Mom's out there tend to take on those roles in the family. I know my wife won't let me do the doctor's or school parent meeting because I don't say the things she'd say... by default, her way is 'right', and my way wasn't her way.... :P
Another side of this is discrimination via social security where stay at home moms are penalized for "not working".
Miles -- so by the same logic, stay-at-home moms should also then get the maternity leave compensation as well? A check for 3 or 4 or 9 months upon birth of child? Hmm...
Curt, think I’m following mightyaa on it being “medical” in regards to employment. Would defiantly allow the leave but would argue who should pay for it. Thinking this trough I think this should be handled with insurance…the company would cover everybody, men & women, to create a pool for the insurance company and the leave could be taken by men and women, making it equal.
I guess companies make decisions that affect families…did a JV with a big firm in Texas and while there for a meeting one of the VP’s was notified to be in Saudi – Stat. He called his wife and left, didn’t even pack a bag and had no idea how long he’d be gone….missed dinner, softball, chores, everything. Should the company president have said instead “John, they need you in Saudi right away, could you please go home and meet with your family and discuss whether you can go?” I honestly think today that families affect business more than businesses affect families…with both working, all the time off managing kids, texting them all day…running home because Jonny is running around the backyard naked….there’s no place on a timesheet for family management, perhaps there should be.
By your logic maybe. I was talking about social security.