I was contracted to install a small 7' kitchenette in an office space break room as part of a remodel. The inspector said it has to be ADA and I need stamped drawings saying it is. I do mostly residential and don't have much experience in stamped drawings. I was hoping a licensed Kitchen designer could do this but after 8 calls no one knows what im talking about. Do I find to find an architect or engineer now? Do I go to them first or do I have a kitchen designer make up prints using manufacture made ada kitchen cabinets of my choosing. Its going to take longer to do all this stuff than it will be to install 6 cabinets. Also the Kitchen designers said Ada cabinets need 8" toe kicks but I did not find anything like that in the codes. Just 34" counter height. Is that true?
Thanks
x-jla
Jan 19, 15 11:33 pm
one second sir, Miles Jaffe will be here to assist you shortly
midlander
Jan 20, 15 3:01 am
How extensive is the whole remodel? There is more to ADA-compliant design than just selecting the right product. There's no such thing as a stamp that certifies ADA compliance though. Ask the inspector if an architect's stamp on the design drawings would be acceptable.
If so, it shouldn't take long for an architect to do this. Usually the owner would pay the design fee.
If the owner doesn't have an architect, ask the GC or other clients you work with to recommend someone local who can do this.
Before looking into this I had never heard of such a thing as 'licensed kitchen designer.' I have no idea what they actually do. Anyone else know what they are for?
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 7:18 am
Guess you should of hired an architect
null pointer
Jan 20, 15 7:32 am
Sorry man, but if you just did a remodel that changed the layout and failed to inform the client that you needed an architect to actually approved the layout change (ie, the addition of a kitchen, which in a commercial job triggers permitting requirements almost everywhere), I have nothing but contempt for you.
I have lost two potential game-changer sort of jobs to contractors like you - and I've seen the clients get screwed when they get hit with stop work orders and when stuff breaks and the contractors don't warrant anything because the clients were too naive to have an architect actually step into what would have been the bidding and negotiation phase of the job or even do routine construction admin.
Seriously: Nothing but contempt.
shellarchitect
Jan 20, 15 7:50 am
unfortunately you don't know what you don't know, and the more you know, the more you realize what you don't know.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 8:09 am
The question about the counter top height indicates how much you do not know. It's best you hire a professional and at this point do not be surprised if the paperwork cost more than the cabinet work, you are already in deep.
Non Sequitur
Jan 20, 15 8:17 am
Residential work with no experience in stamped drawings? Nope, definitively no alarm bells here.
On another note, does IKEA offer training for those seeking kitchen designer licenses?
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 8:20 am
You spelled kitchenette wrong and in an office without cooking appliances it's not called a kitchenette by the way. I could go on and on but I would have bill you, about $200hr +/- and that's a good rate....
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 8:22 am
Of course if you did put a cooking surface in a commercial space you better hire a MEP engineer as well or an architect willing to do some minor engineering assuming cooking is allowed in an office space for your jurisdiction. .........man there is so much you need to know, wow nothing like residential design.
DTL DWG
Jan 20, 15 8:28 am
True story.....was doing this survey and drawings once for another architect in a town house in NYC area and I noticed people drafting in CAD on one of the floors, so I asked the Architect why I was there. He told me this company who made "home improvement" television shows had at the advise of their lawyer converted illegally a townhouse whose Certificate of Occupancy clearly stated residential use into their office. The expert home remodelers thought by installing a 1968 code required style fire escape they would be up to code. Some old lady probably noticed an office being ran out of the townhouse and called 311 on their ass and then they got hit with violations. I recognized one of the TV show hosts....couldn't stop laughing - these guys are telling America how to build via the media and have no clue what they were doing. Just because some DIY show says you can do it, don't mean nothing. Media is liable for nothing.
chigurh
Jan 20, 15 11:18 am
To the OP, you should have hired an architect, but you can still look around and find a stamper, probably some licensed idiot on craigslist that will stamp anything for some rock.
Even the best of architects make mistakes in ADA compliance.
This american life has a pretty fucked up story about ADA lawsuits awhile back:
I can't tell if you are a sub doing just the cabinets, or have you contracted the entire remodel?
Also, the ADA is not a building code and is not enforced through inspection.
BulgarBlogger
Jan 20, 15 12:03 pm
if you are installing a sink in ny, you also need a schedule b from a licensed plumber ;)
curtkram
Jan 20, 15 12:07 pm
chapter 11 of the ibc, which also scopes ICC A117.1, can be enforced through inspection. also, it's possible the OP's jurisdiction does tie ADA into their local ordinance.
the phrase 'it has to be ADA' and 'it has to be accessible' could be easily confused.
either way, it should be understood that commercial construction is not residential construction.
Saint in the City
Jan 20, 15 12:08 pm
I think you need to determine if your project is exempt from requiring an architect's stamp. Very possible you don't need an architect for the project -- and so also then see above about stamping and the ADA.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 12:08 pm
Saint - ADA is adopted into the building code and modified as required and therefore is an inspection item based on the municipality......the sink has to be ADA as well btw
Saint in the City
Jan 20, 15 12:15 pm
The enforcement of state codes is the responsibility of state or local officials – usually through plan reviews and building inspections. The ADA relies on the traditional method of civil rights enforcement through litigation in federal courts. Local officials do not have the authority to enforce the ADA on behalf of the federal government. -- ada.gov
Saint in the City
Jan 20, 15 12:17 pm
curtkram -- does your state allow any exempt commercial?
curtkram
Jan 20, 15 12:32 pm
i think that's a difficult question to answer saint. in the context of the OP installing new cabinetry in a commercial tenant space, i can't think of any way to say he's exempt from following ADA or A117.1 requirements.
if you're asking whether he's exempt from requiring an architect's stamp, it seems the city has asked him for stamped drawings which would imply he does need to have an architect stamp the drawings. i would think an engineer's stamp would not be allowable, but he would have to ask them. if construction is limited to carpet and paint and other things listed in a code book somewhere, then a commercial project would be exempt from requiring an architect's stamp.
i would think limiting work to installation of 7' of cabinetry could be considered limited enough scope that an architect's stamp wouldn't be required, but then i'm not familiar with the project and once you add electrical and plumbing modifications, and inspections are required, it starts to look like a bigger project. perhaps the AHJ did not require an architect's stamp until the inspector saw that the contractor did not select cabinetry that is allowable by code.
Saint in the City
Jan 20, 15 12:42 pm
i can't think of any way to say he's exempt from following ADA or A117.1 requirements.
I never suggested ADA exemption.
But I'd agree with most of the rest of your post. Where I'm at -- plus the adjacent states -- exempt status includes a significant scope of remodel work, plus some exemptions for new construction. I'm doubting that the OP is aware if he is working on an exempt project or not.
Non Sequitur
Jan 20, 15 1:11 pm
Where I practice, we have 3 different codes which speak to disability requirements and dependant on the tenant, all 3 are applicable.
The problem is that they often contradict each other and just something as simple as toilet grab bars because a big headache. We have to fight every single time to convince the plans reviewer that we are correct.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 1:22 pm
Saint the local municipality can enforce whatever code they adopt and however they wish. Yes ADA is federal, which also is why suit was brought against NYC once because the adoption and modification undermined the ADA (act)......so in short OP you should see why hiring a local architect is important.
Saint in the City
Jan 20, 15 2:54 pm
Saint the local municipality can enforce whatever code they adopt and however they wish. Yes ADA is federal, which also is why suit was brought against NYC once because the adoption and modification undermined the ADA (act)
Not how it works -- read from the source. Realize that you're never actually locally adopting, modifying, nor enforcing the ADA. The described certification process should clarify:
from ADA.GOV:
The enforcement of state codes is the responsibility of state or local officials – usually through plan reviews and building inspections. The ADA relies on the traditional method of civil rights enforcement through litigation in federal courts. Local officials do not have the authority to enforce the ADA on behalf of the federal government.
In an effort both to facilitate compliance with all applicable laws and to mitigate the tension between federal and state enforcement processes, the ADA authorizes the Department of Justice, upon request of state or local officials, to certify that state or local accessibility laws meet or exceed the requirements of the ADA. Certification bridges the gap between the federal and state enforcement processes. The certification process neither delegates ADA enforcement authority to the states nor eliminates an individual's right to seek relief through the federal courts. However, effective enforcement of a certified code can mitigate the need for federal enforcement by ensuring that new or altered buildings are accessible. This process gives building owners and design professionals some assurance in advance of construction that the ADA requirements will be satisfied. And, if a lawsuit is filed, compliance with a certified code may be offered as rebuttable evidence of compliance with the ADA.
curtkram
Jan 20, 15 3:40 pm
I'm pretty sure this thing is what lets municipalities in the state of kansas scope the ada the same as the icc (which basically means not give someone a certificate of occupancy if their counter is too tall):
i understand where you're coming from saint, but the people that write these laws aren't always the brightest bulbs in the drawer, so even if the intent of the ada was to not become state law or a building code (since there is an inherit conflict with that and federal law), that doesn't mean it can't become part of someone's building code.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 4:54 pm
Saint that may be what it says but see my point about NYC getting in trouble for modifying it, I am not disagreeing with the principle, just noting 'how it really works'. I will look for that link later(the lawsuit)....also it's as simple as state or local vs federal. Until 2008 NYC had its own code, first Old Code (1938) then 1968 code. In 2008 it adopted IBC and heavily modified and continually rented, basically every 3 years now. I can't remember the exact Local Law that adopted and modified the Ansi 117 (56/87 or something), but if you find it you will understand what I mean. For instances ADA adaptable bathrooms and kitchens, etc.... changing dimensions requirements...
jitter12
Jan 20, 15 5:00 pm
In Texas, they have basically adopted ADA into the Texas Accessibility Standards (TAS). Every project that exceeds $50,000 in cost must be registered with a Registered Accessibility Specialist, who does do inspections. To my understanding, projects under $50,000 are "exempt" per se, but as they don't require inspection or inspection, it probably is de facto exempt.
As this is a breakroom/kitchenette, you have a lot of hidden snafus to be worried about, particularly the 50% requirement for accessible storage if you have built-ins, counter heights (whether it's considered a kitchen or not), sink accessibility, yada yada yada.
Saint in the City
Jan 20, 15 5:10 pm
At a point, ADA discussions should give way to adult beverage consumption.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 20, 15 6:28 pm
A C-note would solve the problem. If not one then certainly two.
I seem to be awfully popular today.
guyod
Jan 20, 15 7:57 pm
Thanks for the Replies and information . FU to the haters. Im my state (pa) very few projects need stamps drawings for residential. I know in different states its different. Plus most of your answers are contradicting so the people I'm suppose to call don't even know the answer. So don't be a dick to someone asking a questing which most of you don't know the answer.
I am the GC it is a smallish remodel of an office space, flooring, paint ect. The Kitchenette is new and will need Plumbing run to it. But the bathroom was on the other side of the wall so it was suppose to be an easy project. I didn't start the work yet. Im not sure where some of you got that from. I didn't even apply for the permit yet I just asked the inspector what he wanted and when he said he need a stamped drawing to showing the kitchenette was ADA compliant I wasn't sure exactly what steps to take. My contract states the permits are extra and any fees associated with the permits are extra so I covered my self but its a smallish project and don't want to spent $750 ish extra if not needed.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 8:30 pm
Oh pennsyltucky! The inspector is the examiner is the commisioner - one guy building department ...yeah Miles advice applies best here...unless you can find some architect on Craigslist.............
Miles Jaffe
Jan 20, 15 8:32 pm
Everybody who is contemplating a career in architecture should read the Archinect forums. This place is littered with assholes trying to get professional "opinions" for free.
Prostitues sell. Sluts just give it away. Stop giving it away and the cheap cocksuckers ^ just *might* get the idea that they have to pay for it.
guyod
Jan 20, 15 9:00 pm
Get over your self Miles. I guess I should of just called half dozen architects to find out the answers about my kitchenette while there probably busy with there multimillion dollar projects. Its not like I ask anyone here to stamp drawings I got form home depot. I just wanted to know if I need a architect, engineer or if there was a licensed kitchen designer that can do it. Plus How to find a small architect who would laugh at my little project.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 20, 15 9:17 pm
I guess I should have just called ...
You should have, but you were too cheap to do that. You even spelled it out, you didn't want to spend extra on fees. Read your own posts. Fees for services are not extra, I'm certain yours aren't.
As you also said, F U.
Have a nice day. :)
midlander
Jan 20, 15 9:25 pm
^guyod, most architects are happy to work with someone who will pay fairly and potentially refer future clients to them even if it's a small project.
if you don't know anyone who can recommend a local architect, do a search on the AIA website. Just email a description of what you need and follow up with a phone call to find out if they're able to do it and at what price.
most states do require an architect or engineer stamp to get permits for any commercial work - it sounds like that's true in PA too. kitchen designer isn't a real profession and has no legal license to stamp drawings for permit.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 20, 15 9:36 pm
GC'S call the building department guys Inspectors because they see them at the end of the job...............Architects and Engineers call the building department guys by all their duties, but usually deal with Examiners......for future reference guyod when discussing with an architect or an engineer you should say what stage you are at if you are going to use the term inspector for the person at the building department.
null pointer
Jan 21, 15 7:25 am
This is why I love New York.
You hear crap about how DOB requires architects to be involved in the everything, but then people like this show up in these boards; probably making more than architects with half the training, pretending they can design, all while stating that architects aren't worth what they bill -- and they can't even figure out if their kitchen design is ADA compliant (117 has more diagrams than most standards/codes. It's not hard to understand.) and not even remotely connected enough to seek help from a local architect.
I guess NYC works because it requires at least some minor competency before you clog the DOB's queue with stupid ideas.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 21, 15 7:44 am
Yeah null. And nyc is moving everything to the Internet to avoid human contact lik Miles handing out c-notes and all the other headaches of dealing with people who can not read.......reading is important outside of pennsyltucky.
Saint in the City
Jan 21, 15 10:06 am
One of my early questions was whether or not this guy even needs an architect's stamp. Which, he did not answer, probably because he does not appear to understand some of the legalities which would surely affect his own profession directly. My one piece of advice to the OP: don't guess or ask random sources about any of this stuff. I would agree with the OP on one thing -- he did get some contradictory info on this site. Anyway, I asked because if the answer was "no", then he would only need to adhere to the code, ADA, etc. -- no architect would be required -- and the examiner (as the nomenclature turns out) would have been mistaken. This is easy to find out:
From the PA gov arch license page:
"Nothing contained in this act shall be construed to prohibit:.... ..(6) The preparation of any drawings or other design documents for the remodeling or alteration of a building not involving structural or egress changes or additions thereto, provided that the author of such plans or other design documents shall not receive any compensation as the author thereof."
.
proto
Jan 21, 15 12:11 pm
in my locale, an architect is needed for any commercial project
(that's not to say that owners don't get GC's to just adjust stuff without a permit cuz they do it a lot)
senjohnblutarsky
Jan 21, 15 1:33 pm
Here, it doesn't matter if the state says an Architect isn't required. If the OHJ decides he wants a stamp, he gets a stamp. Codes and laws are, generally, only a minimum. It's well within the rights of the OHJ to require items in excess of the standard dictated by law.
x-jla
Jan 21, 15 2:59 pm
guyod, they are all just busting balls...I know a guy that does this kind of work in NY who would be happy to assist you. His name is Dan Libeskind. his number is 2124979100. Hes real cheap. Good luck!
Saint in the City
Jan 21, 15 2:59 pm
^^ You are correct on that, and I should've noted my post as such -- the OP only mentioned PA, not which city.
Pardon my frustration -- the OP's choice to make all of this into a kind of guessing game is driving me a little nuts.
JLC-1
Jan 21, 15 4:53 pm
two things. Pretty bad grammar among professionals here. I'm not a native speaker and it jumps right at me when someone write "should of" for "should have". Guess is not a school/career priority.
And, local officials CAN and DO enforce ADA regulations, otherwise what's the legislation for? Just to feed the sharks?
jitter12
Jan 21, 15 5:21 pm
Nice paragraph, grammar troll.
As far as ADA goes, shark food is exactly what it is. It is a civil statute that is enforced by: 1)Civil Lawsuits (feeding the sharks), and 2)Adoption by the ICC and local authorities into enforceable codes.
x-jla
Jan 21, 15 6:26 pm
JLC-1, calls people out for grammatical errors....has several grammatical errors in his post...I give up on this world...
Non Sequitur
Jan 21, 15 6:45 pm
Jla-x, let's not forget that this was our new grammar overlord's first ever post.
This is a fun thread, we should have these more often.
Miles Jaffe
Jan 21, 15 6:58 pm
Yeah, we need some more freeloading FU types around here. It supplements the education all the archie students aren't getting.
guyod
Jan 21, 15 7:51 pm
Thanks for the information some of it was helpful most was a lot of whining. I found an architect at a reasonable price hopefully he knows what is he doing.
awaiting_deletion
Jan 21, 15 8:20 pm
This thread is pretty much 3 classes of pro practice.
I was contracted to install a small 7' kitchenette in an office space break room as part of a remodel. The inspector said it has to be ADA and I need stamped drawings saying it is. I do mostly residential and don't have much experience in stamped drawings. I was hoping a licensed Kitchen designer could do this but after 8 calls no one knows what im talking about. Do I find to find an architect or engineer now? Do I go to them first or do I have a kitchen designer make up prints using manufacture made ada kitchen cabinets of my choosing. Its going to take longer to do all this stuff than it will be to install 6 cabinets. Also the Kitchen designers said Ada cabinets need 8" toe kicks but I did not find anything like that in the codes. Just 34" counter height. Is that true?
Thanks
one second sir, Miles Jaffe will be here to assist you shortly
How extensive is the whole remodel? There is more to ADA-compliant design than just selecting the right product. There's no such thing as a stamp that certifies ADA compliance though. Ask the inspector if an architect's stamp on the design drawings would be acceptable.
If so, it shouldn't take long for an architect to do this. Usually the owner would pay the design fee.
If the owner doesn't have an architect, ask the GC or other clients you work with to recommend someone local who can do this.
Before looking into this I had never heard of such a thing as 'licensed kitchen designer.' I have no idea what they actually do. Anyone else know what they are for?
Guess you should of hired an architect
Sorry man, but if you just did a remodel that changed the layout and failed to inform the client that you needed an architect to actually approved the layout change (ie, the addition of a kitchen, which in a commercial job triggers permitting requirements almost everywhere), I have nothing but contempt for you.
I have lost two potential game-changer sort of jobs to contractors like you - and I've seen the clients get screwed when they get hit with stop work orders and when stuff breaks and the contractors don't warrant anything because the clients were too naive to have an architect actually step into what would have been the bidding and negotiation phase of the job or even do routine construction admin.
Seriously: Nothing but contempt.
unfortunately you don't know what you don't know, and the more you know, the more you realize what you don't know.
The question about the counter top height indicates how much you do not know. It's best you hire a professional and at this point do not be surprised if the paperwork cost more than the cabinet work, you are already in deep.
Residential work with no experience in stamped drawings? Nope, definitively no alarm bells here.
On another note, does IKEA offer training for those seeking kitchen designer licenses?
You spelled kitchenette wrong and in an office without cooking appliances it's not called a kitchenette by the way. I could go on and on but I would have bill you, about $200hr +/- and that's a good rate....
Of course if you did put a cooking surface in a commercial space you better hire a MEP engineer as well or an architect willing to do some minor engineering assuming cooking is allowed in an office space for your jurisdiction. .........man there is so much you need to know, wow nothing like residential design.
True story.....was doing this survey and drawings once for another architect in a town house in NYC area and I noticed people drafting in CAD on one of the floors, so I asked the Architect why I was there. He told me this company who made "home improvement" television shows had at the advise of their lawyer converted illegally a townhouse whose Certificate of Occupancy clearly stated residential use into their office. The expert home remodelers thought by installing a 1968 code required style fire escape they would be up to code. Some old lady probably noticed an office being ran out of the townhouse and called 311 on their ass and then they got hit with violations. I recognized one of the TV show hosts....couldn't stop laughing - these guys are telling America how to build via the media and have no clue what they were doing. Just because some DIY show says you can do it, don't mean nothing. Media is liable for nothing.
To the OP, you should have hired an architect, but you can still look around and find a stamper, probably some licensed idiot on craigslist that will stamp anything for some rock.
Even the best of architects make mistakes in ADA compliance.
This american life has a pretty fucked up story about ADA lawsuits awhile back:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/415/crybabies?act=3
enjoy!
Was the room already a break room?
I can't tell if you are a sub doing just the cabinets, or have you contracted the entire remodel?
Also, the ADA is not a building code and is not enforced through inspection.
if you are installing a sink in ny, you also need a schedule b from a licensed plumber ;)
chapter 11 of the ibc, which also scopes ICC A117.1, can be enforced through inspection. also, it's possible the OP's jurisdiction does tie ADA into their local ordinance.
the phrase 'it has to be ADA' and 'it has to be accessible' could be easily confused.
either way, it should be understood that commercial construction is not residential construction.
I think you need to determine if your project is exempt from requiring an architect's stamp. Very possible you don't need an architect for the project -- and so also then see above about stamping and the ADA.
Saint - ADA is adopted into the building code and modified as required and therefore is an inspection item based on the municipality......the sink has to be ADA as well btw
The enforcement of state codes is the responsibility of state or local officials – usually through plan reviews and building inspections. The ADA relies on the traditional method of civil rights enforcement through litigation in federal courts. Local officials do not have the authority to enforce the ADA on behalf of the federal government. -- ada.gov
curtkram -- does your state allow any exempt commercial?
i think that's a difficult question to answer saint. in the context of the OP installing new cabinetry in a commercial tenant space, i can't think of any way to say he's exempt from following ADA or A117.1 requirements.
if you're asking whether he's exempt from requiring an architect's stamp, it seems the city has asked him for stamped drawings which would imply he does need to have an architect stamp the drawings. i would think an engineer's stamp would not be allowable, but he would have to ask them. if construction is limited to carpet and paint and other things listed in a code book somewhere, then a commercial project would be exempt from requiring an architect's stamp.
i would think limiting work to installation of 7' of cabinetry could be considered limited enough scope that an architect's stamp wouldn't be required, but then i'm not familiar with the project and once you add electrical and plumbing modifications, and inspections are required, it starts to look like a bigger project. perhaps the AHJ did not require an architect's stamp until the inspector saw that the contractor did not select cabinetry that is allowable by code.
i can't think of any way to say he's exempt from following ADA or A117.1 requirements.
I never suggested ADA exemption.
But I'd agree with most of the rest of your post. Where I'm at -- plus the adjacent states -- exempt status includes a significant scope of remodel work, plus some exemptions for new construction. I'm doubting that the OP is aware if he is working on an exempt project or not.
Where I practice, we have 3 different codes which speak to disability requirements and dependant on the tenant, all 3 are applicable.
The problem is that they often contradict each other and just something as simple as toilet grab bars because a big headache. We have to fight every single time to convince the plans reviewer that we are correct.
Saint the local municipality can enforce whatever code they adopt and however they wish. Yes ADA is federal, which also is why suit was brought against NYC once because the adoption and modification undermined the ADA (act)......so in short OP you should see why hiring a local architect is important.
Saint the local municipality can enforce whatever code they adopt and however they wish. Yes ADA is federal, which also is why suit was brought against NYC once because the adoption and modification undermined the ADA (act)
Not how it works -- read from the source. Realize that you're never actually locally adopting, modifying, nor enforcing the ADA. The described certification process should clarify:
from ADA.GOV:
The enforcement of state codes is the responsibility of state or local officials – usually through plan reviews and building inspections. The ADA relies on the traditional method of civil rights enforcement through litigation in federal courts. Local officials do not have the authority to enforce the ADA on behalf of the federal government.
In an effort both to facilitate compliance with all applicable laws and to mitigate the tension between federal and state enforcement processes, the ADA authorizes the Department of Justice, upon request of state or local officials, to certify that state or local accessibility laws meet or exceed the requirements of the ADA. Certification bridges the gap between the federal and state enforcement processes. The certification process neither delegates ADA enforcement authority to the states nor eliminates an individual's right to seek relief through the federal courts. However, effective enforcement of a certified code can mitigate the need for federal enforcement by ensuring that new or altered buildings are accessible. This process gives building owners and design professionals some assurance in advance of construction that the ADA requirements will be satisfied. And, if a lawsuit is filed, compliance with a certified code may be offered as rebuttable evidence of compliance with the ADA.
I'm pretty sure this thing is what lets municipalities in the state of kansas scope the ada the same as the icc (which basically means not give someone a certificate of occupancy if their counter is too tall):
http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_58/Article_13/
i understand where you're coming from saint, but the people that write these laws aren't always the brightest bulbs in the drawer, so even if the intent of the ada was to not become state law or a building code (since there is an inherit conflict with that and federal law), that doesn't mean it can't become part of someone's building code.
Saint that may be what it says but see my point about NYC getting in trouble for modifying it, I am not disagreeing with the principle, just noting 'how it really works'. I will look for that link later(the lawsuit)....also it's as simple as state or local vs federal. Until 2008 NYC had its own code, first Old Code (1938) then 1968 code. In 2008 it adopted IBC and heavily modified and continually rented, basically every 3 years now. I can't remember the exact Local Law that adopted and modified the Ansi 117 (56/87 or something), but if you find it you will understand what I mean. For instances ADA adaptable bathrooms and kitchens, etc.... changing dimensions requirements...
In Texas, they have basically adopted ADA into the Texas Accessibility Standards (TAS). Every project that exceeds $50,000 in cost must be registered with a Registered Accessibility Specialist, who does do inspections. To my understanding, projects under $50,000 are "exempt" per se, but as they don't require inspection or inspection, it probably is de facto exempt.
As this is a breakroom/kitchenette, you have a lot of hidden snafus to be worried about, particularly the 50% requirement for accessible storage if you have built-ins, counter heights (whether it's considered a kitchen or not), sink accessibility, yada yada yada.
At a point, ADA discussions should give way to adult beverage consumption.
A C-note would solve the problem. If not one then certainly two.
I seem to be awfully popular today.
Thanks for the Replies and information . FU to the haters. Im my state (pa) very few projects need stamps drawings for residential. I know in different states its different. Plus most of your answers are contradicting so the people I'm suppose to call don't even know the answer. So don't be a dick to someone asking a questing which most of you don't know the answer.
I am the GC it is a smallish remodel of an office space, flooring, paint ect. The Kitchenette is new and will need Plumbing run to it. But the bathroom was on the other side of the wall so it was suppose to be an easy project. I didn't start the work yet. Im not sure where some of you got that from. I didn't even apply for the permit yet I just asked the inspector what he wanted and when he said he need a stamped drawing to showing the kitchenette was ADA compliant I wasn't sure exactly what steps to take. My contract states the permits are extra and any fees associated with the permits are extra so I covered my self but its a smallish project and don't want to spent $750 ish extra if not needed.
Oh pennsyltucky! The inspector is the examiner is the commisioner - one guy building department ...yeah Miles advice applies best here...unless you can find some architect on Craigslist.............
Everybody who is contemplating a career in architecture should read the Archinect forums. This place is littered with assholes trying to get professional "opinions" for free.
Prostitues sell. Sluts just give it away. Stop giving it away and the cheap cocksuckers ^ just *might* get the idea that they have to pay for it.
Get over your self Miles. I guess I should of just called half dozen architects to find out the answers about my kitchenette while there probably busy with there multimillion dollar projects. Its not like I ask anyone here to stamp drawings I got form home depot. I just wanted to know if I need a architect, engineer or if there was a licensed kitchen designer that can do it. Plus How to find a small architect who would laugh at my little project.
I guess I should have just called ...
You should have, but you were too cheap to do that. You even spelled it out, you didn't want to spend extra on fees. Read your own posts. Fees for services are not extra, I'm certain yours aren't.
As you also said, F U.
Have a nice day. :)
^guyod, most architects are happy to work with someone who will pay fairly and potentially refer future clients to them even if it's a small project.
if you don't know anyone who can recommend a local architect, do a search on the AIA website. Just email a description of what you need and follow up with a phone call to find out if they're able to do it and at what price.
most states do require an architect or engineer stamp to get permits for any commercial work - it sounds like that's true in PA too. kitchen designer isn't a real profession and has no legal license to stamp drawings for permit.
GC'S call the building department guys Inspectors because they see them at the end of the job...............Architects and Engineers call the building department guys by all their duties, but usually deal with Examiners......for future reference guyod when discussing with an architect or an engineer you should say what stage you are at if you are going to use the term inspector for the person at the building department.
This is why I love New York.
You hear crap about how DOB requires architects to be involved in the everything, but then people like this show up in these boards; probably making more than architects with half the training, pretending they can design, all while stating that architects aren't worth what they bill -- and they can't even figure out if their kitchen design is ADA compliant (117 has more diagrams than most standards/codes. It's not hard to understand.) and not even remotely connected enough to seek help from a local architect.
I guess NYC works because it requires at least some minor competency before you clog the DOB's queue with stupid ideas.
Yeah null. And nyc is moving everything to the Internet to avoid human contact lik Miles handing out c-notes and all the other headaches of dealing with people who can not read.......reading is important outside of pennsyltucky.
One of my early questions was whether or not this guy even needs an architect's stamp. Which, he did not answer, probably because he does not appear to understand some of the legalities which would surely affect his own profession directly. My one piece of advice to the OP: don't guess or ask random sources about any of this stuff. I would agree with the OP on one thing -- he did get some contradictory info on this site. Anyway, I asked because if the answer was "no", then he would only need to adhere to the code, ADA, etc. -- no architect would be required -- and the examiner (as the nomenclature turns out) would have been mistaken. This is easy to find out:
From the PA gov arch license page:
"Nothing contained in this act shall be construed to prohibit:.... ..(6) The preparation of any drawings or other design documents for the remodeling or alteration of a building not involving structural or egress changes or additions thereto, provided that the author of such plans or other design documents shall not receive any compensation as the author thereof."
.
in my locale, an architect is needed for any commercial project
(that's not to say that owners don't get GC's to just adjust stuff without a permit cuz they do it a lot)
Here, it doesn't matter if the state says an Architect isn't required. If the OHJ decides he wants a stamp, he gets a stamp. Codes and laws are, generally, only a minimum. It's well within the rights of the OHJ to require items in excess of the standard dictated by law.
guyod, they are all just busting balls...I know a guy that does this kind of work in NY who would be happy to assist you. His name is Dan Libeskind. his number is 2124979100. Hes real cheap. Good luck!
^^ You are correct on that, and I should've noted my post as such -- the OP only mentioned PA, not which city.
Pardon my frustration -- the OP's choice to make all of this into a kind of guessing game is driving me a little nuts.
two things. Pretty bad grammar among professionals here. I'm not a native speaker and it jumps right at me when someone write "should of" for "should have". Guess is not a school/career priority.
And, local officials CAN and DO enforce ADA regulations, otherwise what's the legislation for? Just to feed the sharks?
Nice paragraph, grammar troll.
As far as ADA goes, shark food is exactly what it is. It is a civil statute that is enforced by: 1)Civil Lawsuits (feeding the sharks), and 2)Adoption by the ICC and local authorities into enforceable codes.
JLC-1, calls people out for grammatical errors....has several grammatical errors in his post...I give up on this world...
Jla-x, let's not forget that this was our new grammar overlord's first ever post.
This is a fun thread, we should have these more often.
Yeah, we need some more freeloading FU types around here. It supplements the education all the archie students aren't getting.
Thanks for the information some of it was helpful most was a lot of whining. I found an architect at a reasonable price hopefully he knows what is he doing.
This thread is pretty much 3 classes of pro practice.
We should charge tuition.