Need some help in determining plumbing fixture count...
Submitted drawings for a permit on a new church (IBC '06). Our designed fixture count was based on the worship area of the church (A-3 occupancy) being fully occupied (~900 ppl) as the worst case scenario. The building also contains a few offices and an assembly hall for wedding receptions, bingo, etc.
Code reviewer wants us to revise our drawings and fixture count to reflect all parts of the building being fully occupied at all times. This calculation puts our occupant load ~3000 ppl and pretty much doubles the amount of fixtures and sizes of our restrooms.
We are trying to frame an argument that during church services on Sundays, the offices are closed; when the offices are open, the church is closed; and when activities are held in the assembly hall, neither the church nor offices are open. There is no situation that would ever take place that all parts of the building would be fully occupied at once...
Does this argument have legs? Looking for some help as it appears that the code official does not believe in common sense...
Thanks!
Steven Ward
Apr 4, 11 10:59 am
You're right, and I thought it was perfectly normal - not even unusual - when there is a single primary assembly space. Trusting you've referred to your state's plumbing code book already, but have you checked with your MEP consultant about their experience with this?
miesian
Apr 4, 11 12:50 pm
Just to clarify one thing: Are you using the occ factor for A-3 (5 sqft / occupant) to calculate the rest of the spaces (offices, classrooms, etc.)? Additional 2100 occupants seems way too high.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, A-3 occupancy is for standing spaces (art gallery, museum), and I think a church would be considered seating, which would factor as 15 sqft/occ vs 5/occ for A-3.
dml955i
Apr 4, 11 2:00 pm
We're A-3 occupancy (with fixed seating and using the actual # of seats) and using other occ load factors for the other spaces in the building (business offices, storage,etc).
Code reviewer seems to be dug in and requiring us to use the full 3K occupant load to calculate plumbing fixtures = 21 womens toilets for a building that is utilized for a handful of hours on Sunday.
vado retro
Apr 4, 11 2:14 pm
put a fire wall between the church worship area and the offices and the reception area. make it two buildings.
miesian
Apr 4, 11 2:32 pm
As for calculating the number of fixtures based on occupant load - there is nothing you can do about that. You will have to use the total occupant load number for that calculation. So your battle should be reducing the occupant load.. What vado suggested might be one way, or some creative naming of spaces can always help.
I recently had to deal with a similar situation for an art gallery, changing the name of a small space from "seating" to "vestibule" reduced the number by 20 occupants. And it was the reviewer's suggestion to do so.
vado retro
Apr 4, 11 6:03 pm
yes you could call your reception area a janitor's closet.
Donna Sink
Apr 4, 11 6:38 pm
Variance? It's long and messy and expensive and not guaranteed, but it might help in the long run.
el jeffe
Apr 4, 11 6:45 pm
Donna Sink
Apr 4, 11 7:03 pm
Oh, jeffe, you rock - that's one of the few things in the world that could make me smile right now!
snook_dude
Apr 4, 11 7:23 pm
The guy has to have stock in American Standard!
snook_dude
Apr 4, 11 7:43 pm
The other thing you might do is toss out the the Idea of a "Rupla Law Suit". It might set him running backward on his heels.
miesian
Apr 4, 11 8:48 pm
hahaha... yes, the occupant load would drop significantly if you call all of the high occupancy areas foyers.
mantaray
Apr 4, 11 8:52 pm
hahahahaha el jeffe!!!
is that from the onion?
snook_dude
Apr 5, 11 7:11 am
You might want to ask him for examples of where this method of toilet fixture counting has occured in the past. He must have pushed this concept of fixture count down someone elses throat. Oh ya when he blinks....that is when you bring up the RUPLA Lawsuit. Tell him he is treating your Congregation different than other Congergations have been treated in the past under the same building code. You might want to whip out a piece of paper explaining RUPLA. If you don't know what it is Look it up. No way can he say your clients us the toilets more than other people in a similar situation. It would make for an interesting law suit. It might be known as "The Crapper Lawsuit"
el jeffe
Apr 5, 11 10:44 am
wtf is rupla?
snook_dude
Apr 5, 11 1:18 pm
D
U
D
E
google it...
el jeffe
Apr 5, 11 3:12 pm
i did chief - nothing comes up besides martial arts equipment.
care to share?
snook_dude
Apr 5, 11 5:35 pm
Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act So Sorry I dropped and "I" ~RLUIPA~
model.bot
Apr 5, 11 10:21 pm
I say you should replace all the seating in the assembly hall with toilets and then resubmit. Explain to the planner that there is simply nowhere else to put them all.
go do it
Apr 6, 11 6:34 pm
^
beautiful
el jeffe
Apr 6, 11 7:03 pm
toilets in a sanctuary delights on so many levels...
Yiyue Chen
May 6, 20 8:08 am
I’m not sure what jurisdiction you’re in, but In California, the building code which is based on the IBC uses table 1004.1.1 to calculate occupant load to determine means of egress requirements. Plumbing fixture counts are based on the plumbing code which is an IAPMO code. The occ load factor in CBC and CPC are different; The occupant load as calculated by the two are not the same. Both numbers will typically need to be reviewed and accepted by the AHJ.
Yiyue Chen
May 6, 20 8:14 am
I use this Plumbing Fixture calculator to help determine fixture counts in California: http://www.ara4help.com
Need some help in determining plumbing fixture count...
Submitted drawings for a permit on a new church (IBC '06). Our designed fixture count was based on the worship area of the church (A-3 occupancy) being fully occupied (~900 ppl) as the worst case scenario. The building also contains a few offices and an assembly hall for wedding receptions, bingo, etc.
Code reviewer wants us to revise our drawings and fixture count to reflect all parts of the building being fully occupied at all times. This calculation puts our occupant load ~3000 ppl and pretty much doubles the amount of fixtures and sizes of our restrooms.
We are trying to frame an argument that during church services on Sundays, the offices are closed; when the offices are open, the church is closed; and when activities are held in the assembly hall, neither the church nor offices are open. There is no situation that would ever take place that all parts of the building would be fully occupied at once...
Does this argument have legs? Looking for some help as it appears that the code official does not believe in common sense...
Thanks!
You're right, and I thought it was perfectly normal - not even unusual - when there is a single primary assembly space. Trusting you've referred to your state's plumbing code book already, but have you checked with your MEP consultant about their experience with this?
Just to clarify one thing: Are you using the occ factor for A-3 (5 sqft / occupant) to calculate the rest of the spaces (offices, classrooms, etc.)? Additional 2100 occupants seems way too high.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, A-3 occupancy is for standing spaces (art gallery, museum), and I think a church would be considered seating, which would factor as 15 sqft/occ vs 5/occ for A-3.
We're A-3 occupancy (with fixed seating and using the actual # of seats) and using other occ load factors for the other spaces in the building (business offices, storage,etc).
Code reviewer seems to be dug in and requiring us to use the full 3K occupant load to calculate plumbing fixtures = 21 womens toilets for a building that is utilized for a handful of hours on Sunday.
put a fire wall between the church worship area and the offices and the reception area. make it two buildings.
As for calculating the number of fixtures based on occupant load - there is nothing you can do about that. You will have to use the total occupant load number for that calculation. So your battle should be reducing the occupant load.. What vado suggested might be one way, or some creative naming of spaces can always help.
I recently had to deal with a similar situation for an art gallery, changing the name of a small space from "seating" to "vestibule" reduced the number by 20 occupants. And it was the reviewer's suggestion to do so.
yes you could call your reception area a janitor's closet.
Variance? It's long and messy and expensive and not guaranteed, but it might help in the long run.
Oh, jeffe, you rock - that's one of the few things in the world that could make me smile right now!
The guy has to have stock in American Standard!
The other thing you might do is toss out the the Idea of a "Rupla Law Suit". It might set him running backward on his heels.
hahaha... yes, the occupant load would drop significantly if you call all of the high occupancy areas foyers.
hahahahaha el jeffe!!!
is that from the onion?
You might want to ask him for examples of where this method of toilet fixture counting has occured in the past. He must have pushed this concept of fixture count down someone elses throat. Oh ya when he blinks....that is when you bring up the RUPLA Lawsuit. Tell him he is treating your Congregation different than other Congergations have been treated in the past under the same building code. You might want to whip out a piece of paper explaining RUPLA. If you don't know what it is Look it up. No way can he say your clients us the toilets more than other people in a similar situation. It would make for an interesting law suit. It might be known as "The Crapper Lawsuit"
wtf is rupla?
D
U
D
E
google it...
i did chief - nothing comes up besides martial arts equipment.
care to share?
Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act So Sorry I dropped and "I" ~RLUIPA~
I say you should replace all the seating in the assembly hall with toilets and then resubmit. Explain to the planner that there is simply nowhere else to put them all.
^
beautiful
toilets in a sanctuary delights on so many levels...
I’m not sure what jurisdiction you’re in, but In California, the building code which is based on the IBC uses table 1004.1.1 to calculate occupant load to determine means of egress requirements. Plumbing fixture counts are based on the plumbing code which is an IAPMO code. The occ load factor in CBC and CPC are different; The occupant load as calculated by the two are not the same. Both numbers will typically need to be reviewed and accepted by the AHJ.
I use this Plumbing Fixture calculator to help determine fixture counts in California: http://www.ara4help.com