So I am doing a small guest house for my sister. I don’t have much experience with residential practice and I told my sister as much and she was fine with it.
I have worked on the drawings the past few weeks and I am pretty much done. I gave my sister a Bid Set to get pricing from contractors, thinking that I would keep working on the Permit set for a couple weeks and then submit the drawings and personally ensure that they get approved.
Well, last night I talked with my sister and she said she had talked with a couple contractors and they want to take the drawings and apply for the permit. I asked why and she said that it was just easier for the contractor to do that because they are setting up the inspections and stuff.
When she told me this, my first thought was “great, I don’t have to stay up late anymore working on these plans!” But when I started thinking about it I think it might not be best for the client, my sister.
I think the contractor will likely either do two things:
1. Redraw my drawings, cutting corners anywhere he can.
2. Or take my drawings to get approved, and when they get turned down, will ask for more money because the drawings are ‘bad’.
Now, I think the drawings are pretty darn good, but this being my first residential project I am sure there are things I missed that the permit office will ask to be fixed.
So my question is, what would you do? Is this common practice for the contractor to take drawings and get the permit?
gibbost
Mar 8, 11 3:06 pm
This is not uncommon. Once they get a set of drawings in their hands-regardless of completeness-they're ready to jump on them. When I send out a bid set of drawings I make sure that their is a water mark stamp in the area where the arch seal goes that reads 'not for construction.' Most municipalities, upon seeing that note, will understand that the drawings are not for permitting.
Sometimes, it really is easier to just let them take care of permitting. Oftentimes, the contractor already has a good rapport with the city and can slide them thru with little issue.
If they take your set and redraw them, they're violating copyright issues. If they try for permit with your drawings, chances are, yes there will be some mark-ups for revisions. If I'm the contractor, it makes little sense for me to try to revise drawings that I don't have--ie. no cad files. I would have to go back to the architect and ask to revise.
My advice is to educate your sister on the typical process and tell her that she is the paying customer and gets to control the way things proceed. You, as the architect, do not have a contract with the GC. It's her call. Based on how much typically changes on 'my' drawings from bid set to permit set, I would probably ask that they at least wait until you complete your contract and deliver a full set of construction docs.
Apurimac
Mar 8, 11 3:09 pm
Firstly Loac, what planning jurisdiction are you in?
Alot of jurisdictions seperate residential from commercial/industrial permits and the vast majority of those residential permits are submitted, processed and obtained by contractors. My advice is if your sister is cool with the contractor and he has decent references to just give him the drawings (hardcopies or PDFs) and have him handle the permit. If your plans are rejected, the contractor will probably just bring them back to you and have you revise them as per the examiner's comments.
However, if your contractor is asking for a CAD file with your seal on it that's a definite no-go and I suggest you find another contractor.
Even with commercial jobs it is ultimately the contractor who picks up the permit and pays off any remaining fees, so there's nothing unusual about a contractor running a permit.
el jeffe
Mar 8, 11 3:14 pm
i presume you aren't an architect, so absent a stamp on them, whoever submits them can modify them.
if you're not helping your sister with bidding and construction admin, just give them the drawings and enjoy the view from the sidelines.
loac
Mar 8, 11 5:28 pm
Thanks folks! This really gives me some good perspective.
Gibbost- I gave them a PDF of the plans with "Not for construction" on it.
Apurimac- Jurisdiction is Pima County, AZ
El jeffe- no, I am not licensed.
Thanks again. I will just have a talk with my sister tonight and let her know what is going on. But it doesn't sound as though it is anything shady.
druf
Mar 8, 11 6:26 pm
The contractor applying for the permit is by far the most common method for single family residential permits. I would have no reservations whatsoever about that being done.
I would however not let them take your drawings in for permit until you think they are done. A lot of contractors (a) don't know the difference between finished and not finished drawings (b) just want to make the permit submission regardless of if they are in-complete (and thus might be rejected by the building department) because they think it will lock in their role on the project.
I know its hard for those guys, but they should just cool their heels until you think you are done.
go do it
Mar 8, 11 6:52 pm
i don't go to permit until i have a complete set of drawings and a contract. permits cost money.
you said there were a couple of contractors. are they both going for permit individually? if so that is weird.
they may be trying to get the permit and therefor force your sister into choosing them as the GC.
somebodies cart got in front of their horse
el jeffe
Mar 8, 11 7:36 pm
"they may be trying to get the permit and therefor force your sister into choosing them as the GC. "
ding ding ding.
Donna Sink
Mar 8, 11 8:04 pm
I agree 100% with Apurimac's post.
Our contractors ALWAYS pull our permits - they know the people at the office and it's a huge bureaucratic pain in the butt for me to do it! I'd rather not take that portion of the fee if it means I don't have to walk into that office.
That said, I never stamp my drawings - residential doesn't require it. I give hard copies for submittal only, and if any info is missing or questioned, the contractor brings the comments back to me and I revise the drawings.
From your comment re: multiple contractors it sounds to me like the several your sister have interviewed all regularly include pulling the permit in their contracts. This is standard practice, but as go do it and jeffe implied, the contractor should NOT be getting the permit until s/he has a signed contract from your sister to do the work.
Pima County, so that's Tucson, yes? I got my undergrad degree from UA - are you a Wildcat too? Man I miss Arizona - except for the crazy right-wingers, of course.
Donna Sink
Mar 8, 11 10:11 pm
Forgot to add, loac, that although my contractors get the permit, I always am the one to deal with any neighborhood reviews, historic commission presentations, or variances. I charge for it, but it falls more squarely into the architect's purview, IMO.
mantaray
Mar 8, 11 11:40 pm
I love it when the contractor handles permitting (which was the norm in the previous city I practiced in and not in the current city, in both places regardless of project type). You want to go stand in lines and fill out forms and withstand the evil eye from some clerk? Awesome! I'll stay back at the office and get some billable hours done.
That said, be careful that the contractor doesn't immediately go and build from your set if it's not ready yet. Often times these low-cost residential contractors will simply run out and build off whatever drawing is rolling around in the back of the truck (sometimes it seems like they just pick out whichever one is the least crunkled up that day) without looking at the date or anything. We worked with some legit contractors (who did great work!) and we constantly had to check to make sure they were working off the most up-to-date drawings. It got to the point where I would have to physically go through the drawing set myself every time I was at the jobsite and force them to throw away any old drawings. Anyway, the contractor often doesn't really see or care about the difference between a permit set and a final construction set. He won't want to wait around and as soon as he has that permit in hand you are going to be facing down a ton of pressure to build ASAP. So make sure you are prepared for that and that - most importantly - your sister is ready to back you up.
So be very clear with your sister, walk her through the drawings to date, explain to her what the possible permitting pitfills might be and what she might expect you to have to change to secure a permit, and finally (and most importantly) show her what you still need to accomplish in order for the set to be actually buildable. Then set clear and reasonable deadlines with her and make sure that you meet them. Since presumably she isn't paying you, there isn't really any drawback to her giving you the time you need to get the drawings done properly (except the increase in time). So make sure she's ready to be firm in the face of a hot-to-trot contractor with permit in hand.
toasteroven
Mar 9, 11 12:35 am
IMO - only allow a contractor to submit "incomplete" drawings for permit if you already have a good working relationship with them.
what bugs me is that these contractors don't even have the job and they're ready to start pulling permits... that's very suspect. I'd dump them and find someone else who's going to go through the proper bid process.
toasteroven
Mar 9, 11 12:37 am
oops - agreed with just do it and el jeffe - these guys sound like shysters.
St. George's Fields
Mar 9, 11 12:56 am
I possibly know nothing on this...
But I do know the some municipalities will let you start work with incomplete drawings. However, a certificate of occupancy more than likely requires a full set of documents and an inspection.
I believe the City of New York is one example that allows this.
I remember specifically reading about this issue as a way of expediting construction projects to minimize potential impacts associated with them (financial pull outs, congestion, road closures, temporary utility cutoffs). Also, mortgages and bonds give very slim time frames for forbearance and interest penalties in the construction portion of the project. Not that this particularly applies but there's some reasoning to it.
I'd just be sure to put the big bold word "tentative," "preliminary" or "draft" at the top of the drawings to skirt liability.
babs
Mar 9, 11 9:18 am
gc: "I possibly know nothing on this...'
And yet, you still go ahead and post your meaningless, wholly uninformed drivel .... as always.
ih1542006
Mar 9, 11 9:51 am
I wouldn't release drawings for permit until the bidding is complete and a contractor has been selected. Contractors are always rushing to move forward but, until the drawings are complete, and a bid excepted based on the final docs, don't rush into the permit office.
I always marking plans in large type " Issued for Bidding" and" Not for Construction" To notify the permit office of such and cleary makes it known which set they are working from at all times. Once everything is in place then will change to "issued for Permit"
Nobody can makes changes to documents you prepared, period. without your consent. And it would be foolish for you to allow it
I have had clients to do this and I busted them on it. They paid for it.
I'm my area, only the contractor or the home owner can actually get the permit.
snook_dude
Mar 9, 11 12:28 pm
Do you know Jack? If you don't know Jack, then I would bend over and kiss my tookis good bye. Arizona has their act together in regards to regulating Architects. So I would just check with the State Board before you get yourself in trouble with them, being you do not have a license. They do publish a paper a couple times a year people they have nailed for one reason or another.
I was once ask to sign and seal some drawings for a log cabin for one of the members of Three Dog Night. I did some checking with the building officials and was told even though I was registered in Arizona, they did not think it was proper because I was on the east coast. So I took a pass.
If your doing an unattached studio you will most likely have to go to planning and Zoning for their approval unless your sister has a ranchette half way to Ajo. The planner will most likely sign off if it looks like you don't have any set back issues, or lot coverage issues.
Some of the subdivisions have their own regulations where you are required to submit drawings to a subdivision commission for Architectural Review. I recall this was a bit bizzare, cause most of the people reviewing the projects were semi retired guys who were into protectionism at a very hight level (actually protectionism of their like niche job).
If your sister has a builder, you want to sit on him to be sure he follows thru on your drawings and is very clear as to what products he is using, as there can be a world of difference in products. Oh ya and changes to the plans for ease of contruction should be run by you. If the contractor is worth a grain of salt they will not be offended by you wanting to be part of the process, and neither should your sister.
Best of Luck.
Apurimac
Mar 9, 11 12:46 pm
^Good point Studio, but loac needs to make sure he can permit with ISSUED FOR BID on it. There are some jurisdictions that only alow complete C-sets to be permitted. Again, residential is a different beast, but if you do go that route Loac, understand that if anything on your c-set varies from you p/bid set in regards to construction assemblies, egress, layout, etc., you won't get your CO and will likely have to repermit if the inspector calls you on it, that's permitting SOP regardless of whatever is being built.
Frankly, in a residential setting, the only thing on a p-set that wouldn't be on a c-set should be interior elevations, finish schedules, cabinet/furniture details, that sort of stuff.
gibbost
Mar 9, 11 2:26 pm
As far as I'm concerned, when you've hired me for my services, I'd like to try to perform those services to completion. I try not to let the owner or the contractor cut corners on my stuff because its more convenient for them.
In my experience, a bid set is oftentimes a request by the owner. 'Hey get me complete set by the end of the day that I can have the steel fabricator start looking at.' Drawing completeness varies and the milestone date is based on their needs, not yours. In other words, I may end up sending out a [bid] set of drawings that has several errors simply because I was looking ahead to next week's final permit submission.
Also, if a drawing clearly states 'Not for construction - Bid Set' on it, I'd find it hard to believe any AHJ would consider performing even a preliminary review.
snook_dude
Mar 9, 11 7:36 pm
gibbost... A studio isn't rocket science dude. I know a number of people who would take a look at it and say, ya it is going in the right direction or na.....better bring this thing farther along. This is most likely what the contractor is looking for.
I had a client bring me a set of drawings where the guy drawing them didn't cut a section and the spring line for vaulted ceilings was like two feet off of the floor, which resulted in a non usable space. The
elevations and plans were approved by zoning. The Building official took one look at the drawings and told the the people who became my client to go hire someone who knows what they are doing. We ended up having to go back thru the planning and zoning commission because of the change in Building Elevations.
darbymccloskey
Jun 3, 19 4:33 pm
Hi Darby Architect here, Yep I normally tell the owner of a residential property to put the permit in there name. ALL home owners are allowed to construct there own homes even though she may not plan to do the construction. This give the owner many options, sometimes the design changes, getting multiple price etc.
I have learn over 45 years that there are some good respectable contractors and some not so good ones. Construction is hard work many days in the snow or in massive heat. SO they generally take first and ask questions later. Obviously this contractor wants control over the project and has little work. SO let them have control just don't pay them until you get what you need.
AS a great man once said "The dude abides".
Don't sweat it, if things start going south drive down to the permit office explain the issue and take care of it.
Put the permit in the home owners name and get many prices,, this is the greatest way to utilize the drawings. Be patient.
So I am doing a small guest house for my sister. I don’t have much experience with residential practice and I told my sister as much and she was fine with it.
I have worked on the drawings the past few weeks and I am pretty much done. I gave my sister a Bid Set to get pricing from contractors, thinking that I would keep working on the Permit set for a couple weeks and then submit the drawings and personally ensure that they get approved.
Well, last night I talked with my sister and she said she had talked with a couple contractors and they want to take the drawings and apply for the permit. I asked why and she said that it was just easier for the contractor to do that because they are setting up the inspections and stuff.
When she told me this, my first thought was “great, I don’t have to stay up late anymore working on these plans!” But when I started thinking about it I think it might not be best for the client, my sister.
I think the contractor will likely either do two things:
1. Redraw my drawings, cutting corners anywhere he can.
2. Or take my drawings to get approved, and when they get turned down, will ask for more money because the drawings are ‘bad’.
Now, I think the drawings are pretty darn good, but this being my first residential project I am sure there are things I missed that the permit office will ask to be fixed.
So my question is, what would you do? Is this common practice for the contractor to take drawings and get the permit?
This is not uncommon. Once they get a set of drawings in their hands-regardless of completeness-they're ready to jump on them. When I send out a bid set of drawings I make sure that their is a water mark stamp in the area where the arch seal goes that reads 'not for construction.' Most municipalities, upon seeing that note, will understand that the drawings are not for permitting.
Sometimes, it really is easier to just let them take care of permitting. Oftentimes, the contractor already has a good rapport with the city and can slide them thru with little issue.
If they take your set and redraw them, they're violating copyright issues. If they try for permit with your drawings, chances are, yes there will be some mark-ups for revisions. If I'm the contractor, it makes little sense for me to try to revise drawings that I don't have--ie. no cad files. I would have to go back to the architect and ask to revise.
My advice is to educate your sister on the typical process and tell her that she is the paying customer and gets to control the way things proceed. You, as the architect, do not have a contract with the GC. It's her call. Based on how much typically changes on 'my' drawings from bid set to permit set, I would probably ask that they at least wait until you complete your contract and deliver a full set of construction docs.
Firstly Loac, what planning jurisdiction are you in?
Alot of jurisdictions seperate residential from commercial/industrial permits and the vast majority of those residential permits are submitted, processed and obtained by contractors. My advice is if your sister is cool with the contractor and he has decent references to just give him the drawings (hardcopies or PDFs) and have him handle the permit. If your plans are rejected, the contractor will probably just bring them back to you and have you revise them as per the examiner's comments.
However, if your contractor is asking for a CAD file with your seal on it that's a definite no-go and I suggest you find another contractor.
Even with commercial jobs it is ultimately the contractor who picks up the permit and pays off any remaining fees, so there's nothing unusual about a contractor running a permit.
i presume you aren't an architect, so absent a stamp on them, whoever submits them can modify them.
if you're not helping your sister with bidding and construction admin, just give them the drawings and enjoy the view from the sidelines.
Thanks folks! This really gives me some good perspective.
Gibbost- I gave them a PDF of the plans with "Not for construction" on it.
Apurimac- Jurisdiction is Pima County, AZ
El jeffe- no, I am not licensed.
Thanks again. I will just have a talk with my sister tonight and let her know what is going on. But it doesn't sound as though it is anything shady.
The contractor applying for the permit is by far the most common method for single family residential permits. I would have no reservations whatsoever about that being done.
I would however not let them take your drawings in for permit until you think they are done. A lot of contractors (a) don't know the difference between finished and not finished drawings (b) just want to make the permit submission regardless of if they are in-complete (and thus might be rejected by the building department) because they think it will lock in their role on the project.
I know its hard for those guys, but they should just cool their heels until you think you are done.
i don't go to permit until i have a complete set of drawings and a contract. permits cost money.
you said there were a couple of contractors. are they both going for permit individually? if so that is weird.
they may be trying to get the permit and therefor force your sister into choosing them as the GC.
somebodies cart got in front of their horse
"they may be trying to get the permit and therefor force your sister into choosing them as the GC. "
ding ding ding.
I agree 100% with Apurimac's post.
Our contractors ALWAYS pull our permits - they know the people at the office and it's a huge bureaucratic pain in the butt for me to do it! I'd rather not take that portion of the fee if it means I don't have to walk into that office.
That said, I never stamp my drawings - residential doesn't require it. I give hard copies for submittal only, and if any info is missing or questioned, the contractor brings the comments back to me and I revise the drawings.
From your comment re: multiple contractors it sounds to me like the several your sister have interviewed all regularly include pulling the permit in their contracts. This is standard practice, but as go do it and jeffe implied, the contractor should NOT be getting the permit until s/he has a signed contract from your sister to do the work.
Pima County, so that's Tucson, yes? I got my undergrad degree from UA - are you a Wildcat too? Man I miss Arizona - except for the crazy right-wingers, of course.
Forgot to add, loac, that although my contractors get the permit, I always am the one to deal with any neighborhood reviews, historic commission presentations, or variances. I charge for it, but it falls more squarely into the architect's purview, IMO.
I love it when the contractor handles permitting (which was the norm in the previous city I practiced in and not in the current city, in both places regardless of project type). You want to go stand in lines and fill out forms and withstand the evil eye from some clerk? Awesome! I'll stay back at the office and get some billable hours done.
That said, be careful that the contractor doesn't immediately go and build from your set if it's not ready yet. Often times these low-cost residential contractors will simply run out and build off whatever drawing is rolling around in the back of the truck (sometimes it seems like they just pick out whichever one is the least crunkled up that day) without looking at the date or anything. We worked with some legit contractors (who did great work!) and we constantly had to check to make sure they were working off the most up-to-date drawings. It got to the point where I would have to physically go through the drawing set myself every time I was at the jobsite and force them to throw away any old drawings. Anyway, the contractor often doesn't really see or care about the difference between a permit set and a final construction set. He won't want to wait around and as soon as he has that permit in hand you are going to be facing down a ton of pressure to build ASAP. So make sure you are prepared for that and that - most importantly - your sister is ready to back you up.
So be very clear with your sister, walk her through the drawings to date, explain to her what the possible permitting pitfills might be and what she might expect you to have to change to secure a permit, and finally (and most importantly) show her what you still need to accomplish in order for the set to be actually buildable. Then set clear and reasonable deadlines with her and make sure that you meet them. Since presumably she isn't paying you, there isn't really any drawback to her giving you the time you need to get the drawings done properly (except the increase in time). So make sure she's ready to be firm in the face of a hot-to-trot contractor with permit in hand.
IMO - only allow a contractor to submit "incomplete" drawings for permit if you already have a good working relationship with them.
what bugs me is that these contractors don't even have the job and they're ready to start pulling permits... that's very suspect. I'd dump them and find someone else who's going to go through the proper bid process.
oops - agreed with just do it and el jeffe - these guys sound like shysters.
I possibly know nothing on this...
But I do know the some municipalities will let you start work with incomplete drawings. However, a certificate of occupancy more than likely requires a full set of documents and an inspection.
I believe the City of New York is one example that allows this.
I remember specifically reading about this issue as a way of expediting construction projects to minimize potential impacts associated with them (financial pull outs, congestion, road closures, temporary utility cutoffs). Also, mortgages and bonds give very slim time frames for forbearance and interest penalties in the construction portion of the project. Not that this particularly applies but there's some reasoning to it.
I'd just be sure to put the big bold word "tentative," "preliminary" or "draft" at the top of the drawings to skirt liability.
gc: "I possibly know nothing on this...'
And yet, you still go ahead and post your meaningless, wholly uninformed drivel .... as always.
I wouldn't release drawings for permit until the bidding is complete and a contractor has been selected. Contractors are always rushing to move forward but, until the drawings are complete, and a bid excepted based on the final docs, don't rush into the permit office.
I always marking plans in large type " Issued for Bidding" and" Not for Construction" To notify the permit office of such and cleary makes it known which set they are working from at all times. Once everything is in place then will change to "issued for Permit"
Nobody can makes changes to documents you prepared, period. without your consent. And it would be foolish for you to allow it
I have had clients to do this and I busted them on it. They paid for it.
I'm my area, only the contractor or the home owner can actually get the permit.
Do you know Jack? If you don't know Jack, then I would bend over and kiss my tookis good bye. Arizona has their act together in regards to regulating Architects. So I would just check with the State Board before you get yourself in trouble with them, being you do not have a license. They do publish a paper a couple times a year people they have nailed for one reason or another.
I was once ask to sign and seal some drawings for a log cabin for one of the members of Three Dog Night. I did some checking with the building officials and was told even though I was registered in Arizona, they did not think it was proper because I was on the east coast. So I took a pass.
If your doing an unattached studio you will most likely have to go to planning and Zoning for their approval unless your sister has a ranchette half way to Ajo. The planner will most likely sign off if it looks like you don't have any set back issues, or lot coverage issues.
Some of the subdivisions have their own regulations where you are required to submit drawings to a subdivision commission for Architectural Review. I recall this was a bit bizzare, cause most of the people reviewing the projects were semi retired guys who were into protectionism at a very hight level (actually protectionism of their like niche job).
If your sister has a builder, you want to sit on him to be sure he follows thru on your drawings and is very clear as to what products he is using, as there can be a world of difference in products. Oh ya and changes to the plans for ease of contruction should be run by you. If the contractor is worth a grain of salt they will not be offended by you wanting to be part of the process, and neither should your sister.
Best of Luck.
^Good point Studio, but loac needs to make sure he can permit with ISSUED FOR BID on it. There are some jurisdictions that only alow complete C-sets to be permitted. Again, residential is a different beast, but if you do go that route Loac, understand that if anything on your c-set varies from you p/bid set in regards to construction assemblies, egress, layout, etc., you won't get your CO and will likely have to repermit if the inspector calls you on it, that's permitting SOP regardless of whatever is being built.
Frankly, in a residential setting, the only thing on a p-set that wouldn't be on a c-set should be interior elevations, finish schedules, cabinet/furniture details, that sort of stuff.
As far as I'm concerned, when you've hired me for my services, I'd like to try to perform those services to completion. I try not to let the owner or the contractor cut corners on my stuff because its more convenient for them.
In my experience, a bid set is oftentimes a request by the owner. 'Hey get me complete set by the end of the day that I can have the steel fabricator start looking at.' Drawing completeness varies and the milestone date is based on their needs, not yours. In other words, I may end up sending out a [bid] set of drawings that has several errors simply because I was looking ahead to next week's final permit submission.
Also, if a drawing clearly states 'Not for construction - Bid Set' on it, I'd find it hard to believe any AHJ would consider performing even a preliminary review.
gibbost... A studio isn't rocket science dude. I know a number of people who would take a look at it and say, ya it is going in the right direction or na.....better bring this thing farther along. This is most likely what the contractor is looking for.
I had a client bring me a set of drawings where the guy drawing them didn't cut a section and the spring line for vaulted ceilings was like two feet off of the floor, which resulted in a non usable space. The
elevations and plans were approved by zoning. The Building official took one look at the drawings and told the the people who became my client to go hire someone who knows what they are doing. We ended up having to go back thru the planning and zoning commission because of the change in Building Elevations.
Hi Darby Architect here, Yep I normally tell the owner of a residential property to put the permit in there name. ALL home owners are allowed to construct there own homes even though she may not plan to do the construction. This give the owner many options, sometimes the design changes, getting multiple price etc.
I have learn over 45 years that there are some good respectable contractors and some not so good ones. Construction is hard work many days in the snow or in massive heat. SO they generally take first and ask questions later. Obviously this contractor wants control over the project and has little work. SO let them have control just don't pay them until you get what you need.
AS a great man once said "The dude abides".
Don't sweat it, if things start going south drive down to the permit office explain the issue and take care of it.
Put the permit in the home owners name and get many prices,, this is the greatest way to utilize the drawings. Be patient.
Sincerely
Darby W. McCLoskey, Architect