so i write to ensamble studio, great work multidisciplinary practice etc.
they reply 24 hours later, attaching this to their email. it's a pdf you can download here.
"We invite you to join Ensamble Studio Access Program! Our aim is to find talented and hard-working people from a wide range of
backgrounds to work in Ensamble Studio.
All those supported by a grant or scholarship are welcome to apply: Students, New graduates, Junior and Senior Architects,
Designers, Engineers, Artists, Historians...We are a multidisciplinar team in which you can develop and strengthen your abilities.
You don´t need experience if you are active, self-disciplined and confident in a complex environment.
Please, don´t send us your CV. Complete this form and submit it by e-mail, and you will have the opportunity to show us your best
skills.")
my reply was this:
---------------------------------------------
Thanks for your reply.
I know times are hard and I also know you are a young studio, doing a lot of research and competition, work which usually does not produce revenue.
But offering an unpaid internship to an experienced architect (and by reading your form, this seems to be a common practice of yours, given you offer the "program" to junior and senior architects too) is rather offensive for the person you are contacting, even if just for a month and with the possibility of employment, and truly a sign of a culture of exploitation that is apparently still very much present in the architectural world.
and this was to keep it polite...a month of free work for the POSSIBILITY of employment? junior and SENIOR architects? FUCK YOU. please, do yourself a favour and NEVER work for free. ever. get a job at mcdonalds and do competitions on your own, but NEVER work for a handshake and a pat on the shoulder.
Rusty!
Sep 10, 10 6:15 am
it also says " YOU ARE REQUIRED TO BE SUPPORTED BY A GRANT OR SCHOLARSHIP". Does that make a difference in your opinion?
I think they auto responded to your inquiry with a non applicable form.
Not sure what your situation is, but if you are unemployed and trying to find a survival job until the industry bounces back, applying to starchitects will probably leave you feeling deflated. Aim lower.
Take me for example. I really hope something comes out of my recent application for a cad-guy for custom residential kitchens! I've been staring at my phone all day today! Any second now! $12/h? Sold!
bigness
Sep 10, 10 6:18 am
no, I'm not unemployed, just looking around. and applying to all sorts of places, from corporate to design and other things. it's just funny...how people still think they can fuck you over with a grin on their faces. it's just because people let them do it. it's an old problem
Rusty!
Sep 10, 10 6:49 am
I agree. You're 29. You should understand the state of industry at this point. Stay away from branded names and you'll be fine. There's plenty of great work coming from companies 'no-one's ever heard of'.
Companies that seek (and are able to get) free labor account for such a minuscule portion of the overall profession. They do get a disproportionate amount of publicity though. How starstruck are you? It's a mesmerizing game for 21 year olds. Not you. Your ego has been completely shat on years ago, So why worry about it?
Hawkin
Sep 10, 10 6:53 am
bigness, In addition I really doubt they are a young studio who cannot afford paid positions. This is Anton Garcia-Abril's own house in Madrid:
aahahaha, I like the shat on ego. it's worth trying. there are design firms out there that pay decent wage. all I am saying is that we shouldn't offer the chance to the bad guys to get shit for free. if they tried to do it with me it's because they succeded in doing it to others. nd I believe their attitude has nothing to do with the state of the market. believe you me, I have worked for the beautiful and the ugly, the sinners and the saints.
bigness
Sep 10, 10 7:12 am
hawkin: and sports a real bad hairdo. damn that' a big beam.
Hawkin
Sep 10, 10 7:13 am
For my experience (and most friends) the starchitects on the rise (well, it is hard to say that they are an starchitect!) are the worst!. Worst payers and worst egos.
I have worked for 2 starchitects (real starchitects :)) and while the working hours were mad, the pay was the standard for their respective markets (even slightly higher in one of them). Sometimes people assumed that I worked for free (I definitely would never work for free) and they even thought I was lying to them by telling that I had a "normal" salary.
bigness
Sep 10, 10 7:23 am
I know of star places where they even do normal hours...and of other (one not so famous firm in japan) where a guy with 10 years experience in a major international office was working 7 days a week for no monies.
there are stories on both sides.
but these people should be slapped around the face (the employer AND the employees) while someone shouts:
WHAT THE FUCK WERE YOU THINKING!
Rusty!
Sep 10, 10 7:35 am
Hah! Garcia's hairdo is epic! I hope he 'designs' a building in the image of that 'thing'. Back to back Pritzkers guaranteed...
I'm a wee bit older than you bigness, and I have learned to tune out certain practices. They will always be desirable to the impressionable youth. GREAT place to learn, get a haircut, etc... Just let go. There are a number of recent threads on here about people desperate to get an OMA internship. They have yet to be pooped on. Let them get what they want!
Hawkin: did one of the owners of the 'well' paying starchitectural office by any chance own a private airplane? It really sounds like an office I consulted for...
Hawkin
Sep 10, 10 8:35 am
Ahah, no. But Foster is probably more corporate than starchitect.
As for OMA, 700 euros for let's say 6 months when you are 23 and little to none experience, I feel it is not THAT bad. At the end, it is the most influential architect in the world, and OMA is definitely very flashy in your resume for whoever. And in this current economic situation, you see Mr. Average Joe Architects willing to pay peanuts for interns, so I would rather go with OMA for 700 euros rather than with Joe Arch. for 1000 USD a month :)
bigness
Sep 10, 10 8:43 am
see steel, I recently walked away from a job in a design office, fancy and all that. decent pay, responsabilities, crazy hours but hey. I only had a problem with the location (beijing, way too polluted for my liking). so it can be done. And my attitude is always to give it a try, an email don't cost a thing. If i see interesting work I will send them a cv. Many times it just resulted in nothing, other I eneded up meeting the guys and actually setting up a (culturally) rewarding collaboration. you never know.
but to offer an architect with 5 years experience, a "goo" profile and built work, an unpaid internship, is just cheeky. and cheeky sometimes deserves a slap in the face, all I'm sayin.
oma I would do it for less money than others, but that's just for who they are, how much I admire them and what they could teach. and it's not about fashination, it's about personal and professional growth. but I would never compromise my economic situation for that, that's all.
bigness
Sep 10, 10 9:19 am
i meant "good"
Distant Unicorn
Sep 10, 10 12:04 pm
Steelstuds... Toll Brothers is hiring CAD drafters in Orlando for $8.75 an hour.
Cherith Cutestory
Sep 10, 10 12:42 pm
"As for OMA, 700 euros for let's say 6 months when you are 23 and little to none experience, I feel it is not THAT bad. At the end, it is the most influential architect in the world, and OMA is definitely very flashy in your resume for whoever. And in this current economic situation, you see Mr. Average Joe Architects willing to pay peanuts for interns, so I would rather go with OMA for 700 euros rather than with Joe Arch. for 1000 USD a month :)"
This is true... to a point. OMA is great if you continue to work for stararchitect/large corporate offices. However, things like OMA can be a liability on your resume if you start applying for jobs at smaller offices because they are going to immediately think of you as an ego-driven designer with no interest in anything beyond schematic design.
bigness
Sep 10, 10 12:47 pm
my guess is, you jump on the oma train, then you're either gonan go at it alone or move to similar places. but yeah, you do have a point. is like a degree at the AA, joe average wouldn't employ you.
Hawkin
Sep 10, 10 3:27 pm
I can't share your points of view. I know more or less what I am talking about :). An OMA (or similar) is a big boost anywhere.
- For any big corporate firm is a definitive advantage (SOM, HOK style, etc.) They are smart enough to know that after a few years of slavery, you probably want a better paid / better hours / normal life job. Because you worked there, they will assume that you are very competitive, good in design and ESPECIALLY you are able to work under high pressure. All of them are very good qualities to success on a firm. Plus they know you will appreciate a well-paid and relatively unstressful job.
- Add to this your regional/local corporate firms where your OMA/starchitect thing can make a kind of Wow factor. Probably your filthy rich boss (who at least knows who OMA is) is happy to hire someone who can bring some "hype" to his repetitive designs of office buildings.
- For any nice boutique firm (whoever publishes in Dezeen, let's say), that is a plus. Just look how many people have worked at OMA (basically every starchitect on the rise). It's a kind of alumni thing, let's say.
- Not to mention how much attraction it will bring in most emerging economies. Imagine you move to Kazakhstan or China with a Nebraska University degree. Definitely an OMA or starchitect internship will give them a reference of something they know. It may seem dumb, but we live in a very globalized and brand-orientated world, and OMA (or Zaha or H&dM) is to architecture what Gucci or Porsche is for fashion or cars: they are known everywhere in the world (at least architects know them).
Yes, probably at Toll Bros. in Orlando, FL, your OMA thing will be looked awkward, and probably they will hire Mr. X who never went North of Fort Lauderdale and will be happy with his Wal-Mart salary. But it will definitely open you more doors than it will close. And it will open you the doors you would like to open.
At the end of the day it is way easier to jump from the starchitect world to the standard/corporate than the other way around. (Well I hate to do such distinctions because I cannot see that difference).
Also, from my experience, I agree that there are many ego-centric people who work in starchitect offices. But (especially at a firm with such a theorical background like OMA) many other people just want to work there for a few months to see first hand how it is and learn as much as they can from that experience. Nothing else.
Rusty!
Sep 10, 10 4:08 pm
I didn't mean to bring up OMA in this thread, but since I have, I have a follow up question...
What's the appeal of OMA? Am I too obtuse to get it? The work is kind of typical blocky dutch style that relies on simple geometries that would be a smash hit with your toddler.
The work also consistently uses very flat facades. This is great if you're into supermodels, but if you like some meat on the bones, you'll be left feeling less than hard. Mind you, all-out tits-and-ass approach done by likes of Zaha is also not much of a turn on.
Oh, Antón García- Abril of ShowCase. Why must you be my only arch hero in these scary post-everything times?
Distant Unicorn
Sep 10, 10 4:26 pm
Either he hasn't updated his website in a while or he hasn't built anything since 2007.
Updating website = bad marketing, slow to get work
Hasn't built anything = Can't afford to pay anything
jplourde
Sep 10, 10 4:43 pm
ss - do you know why you called oma's motus operandi the 'typical dutch style?'
that would answer your question.
to be honest, i kind of dislike oma for a variety of reasons, but i dont think their projects stem from a stylistic agenda. perhaps the interest in 'scripting social phenomena' has become a style which has been adopted and adapted by other firms [rex, jds, mvrdv, big, work ac all come to mind].
that said, i dont think you're obtuse at all, perhaps you just dont really like dny,smlxl, or cntnt. nothing wrong with being turned off by propaganda. happens all the time.
Rusty!
Sep 10, 10 7:32 pm
jplourde, I like OMA's work. I just don't find it to be anything terribly special either. The reputation far exceeds the merit IMO.
jplourde
Sep 10, 10 7:51 pm
lol, go visit seattle public or casa da musica and then come back and say it's not worthy of merit :)
oma isnt the end all be all, but one cant really disregard them [him] as inconsequential either. delirious alone holds more water than peter cook or superstudio did.
Rusty!
Sep 10, 10 9:05 pm
I have been to Seattle Library. It works great as far as perfectly blending in with corporate surroundings of the downtown area. To be fair, building was surrounded by people in an otherwise empty part of town. Not sure if it was the books or the building that did the trick. Free internet access would be my guess.
bigness
Sep 11, 10 7:17 am
steel--you are kinda limiting your judgement on looks here...
oma's buildings are basically mies' building out of a car crash, the aesthetic has been the same since the beginning. what they are to be recognized for, and what makes them the most important office of their generation, is their take on program, typologies and society at large.
creativity expert
Sep 11, 10 3:07 pm
"steel--you are kinda limiting your judgement on looks here...
oma's buildings are basically mies' building out of a car crash"
Sorry bigness, but comparing rems junk to Mies is like comparing piss to wine.
bigness
Sep 12, 10 7:33 am
don, all I am saying is that the looks of rem's buildings is mostly based on a re-working of the typological mies costruction systems, as if they had been put in a blender: plain concrete walls (casa da musica), steel and glass facades (seattle library, cctv) with mullions, etc. in mies, they are used in the simplest form, in rem they are twisted and distorted to wrap around his off the wall spaces and arrangements. rem himself has said that many times ("I love mies, I studied mies, I even dismantled mies" ore something like that), and if you look at the buildings you will see what he means. all I am saying.
and, on a completely different note, I think there is a good chance that 100 years from now they will talk about rem like they do now of corbusier and mies. just because there where people 1000 years ago saying the same stuff you are saying , about mies and...palladio. and please don, understand what people are writing before criticizing.
bigness
Sep 12, 10 7:54 am
hasn't this all gone a bit off topic?
remus + romulus
Sep 12, 10 10:37 am
Bigness, I didn't read the full thread, just your initial post. But I just wanted to share my experience with Ensemble. A year ago, I was running around Madrid, dropping of my cv at various firms. When I knocked on the door of Ensemble, the young lady who answered the door didn't want to take my resume, but told me about this access program. I convinced her to take my cv anyways so she could send me the link to download this pdf. I'll admit, I debated signing up for 6 months and not pay, but it would have been impossible to hold another job because you work from 8am to 10pm. After thinking about it for a couple of days, I concluded that this studio is full of shit, and reading your post makes me feel vindicated. At age 29 with a professional degree and 4 solid year of experience under my belt, I would never work for free.
zen maker
Sep 12, 10 11:13 am
Its not only offensive to experienced architects but it is also cowardly by stealing internship position from people students or grads really need it.
bigness
Sep 12, 10 12:36 pm
not it's shit and people like them should be reported to their registration offices/bodies for professional misconduct.
jplourde
Sep 12, 10 2:12 pm
No one should work for free, unless they're working for themselves and so choose to do so.
If a firm's economic model is built upon free labour, then it will fail if that free labour dries up. It's just not a sound business model, nevermind the ethics.
That said, Libeskind and OMA pay interns a small but livable wage. They understand that to devalue the cost of design services at such a base level is a defeatist philosophy and economic model. Manhours cost what they cost, if you can't compete with other firms by offering a better product or a leaner production method, than you won't compete longterm by devaluing your young for economic purposes.
creativity expert
Sep 12, 10 3:17 pm
well bigness, i'm not a stranger to the former journalist (rem) and his statements, it's obvious that he has an inferiority complex in regards to Mies.
A hundred years from now people will remember this period in architecture as a misguided, and degenerate time, and rems name will be associated with it.
bigness
Sep 12, 10 3:20 pm
don, they where saying that too, a hundred years ago.
creativity expert
Sep 12, 10 3:29 pm
well around 1900 it was a misguided time in Europe Mies did mention this then the wasmuth portfolio was published, and then we had a stable period of enlightenment in architecture which in my opinion ended around 1975.
The bottom line is that rem will forever be associated with arbitrariness, like a lot of other long forgotten phases in architecture.
bigness
Sep 12, 10 3:36 pm
we shall see. just try and use conditionals in your statements about the future, it helps finding empathy in the listeners regardless their acceptance of your theories :)
creativity expert
Sep 12, 10 3:39 pm
I am officially over the 100 post mark! does archinect send us some kind of gift or letter of congratulations? ok i think its time i took a vacation, from archinect. some of you other people with thousands of posts probably need to get up off that chair and take a shower.
bigness
Sep 12, 10 3:45 pm
certainly it should for a 100 posts in less than a month!
(uuuuh, nasty! been on archinect for uhm, 7 years now? been also blogging for the site for two years so if it's a shot at me, I am not exactly a forum troll...)
creativity expert
Sep 12, 10 3:53 pm
no it was not a shot at anyone, but one month is enough for me bigness.
ps. with over half of the architecture community unemployed are you surprised that we post on here often?
bigness
Sep 12, 10 3:57 pm
it just takes such a long time to send those cv's. seriously, it does, the down time is minutes for every email.
jmanganelli
Sep 12, 10 4:04 pm
i have noticed that steven ward is coming up on 10000 posts
that does seem like it deserves something special
are there others (or many others) over the 10000 post mark?
bigness
Sep 12, 10 4:05 pm
I think paul should wine and dine him, at least :)
Urbanist
Sep 13, 10 11:41 am
I guess my question would be the same as it always is in cases like this: if a for profit firm (who is not a starchitect and you're not just chasing after the glamour of it all) offers you no-pay or a small stipend or whatever, why would be oblige? Instead, volunteer your time (or accept discounted pay) with a CDC or some other non-profit and design housing or temp shelters or whatever and do something that takes advantage of your skills.... There are literally thousands of CDCs in this country - and in every city - and every of them needs architects and architectural designers they can't afford to pay for. ...and instead of enriching an exploitative for-profit partner at a firm, you'd actually be helping people out.
bigness
Sep 13, 10 4:45 pm
urbanist: yeah I agree, but some people think that working for a boutique firm, even if for free, will later bring dividends in terms of cv and portfolio, whereas working for architecture for humanity won't. and, considering things from that perspective, those people are right.
there should be no such thing as free work. there should be volunteering, but I wouldn't call working for ensemble for free volunteering :)
jmanganelli
Sep 13, 10 9:06 pm
i've never worked for a starchitect or anyone with those ambitions, but it seems there is a trend on this and other threads in relation to this issue
whether due to lack of resources or lack of ethics, ambitious designers convince other designers to donate large amounts of time designing for/with them in the hope that they will win a competition and get prestigious work built
it sounds like this usually entails having two or five or ten people spend 50 or 100 or 200 hours a piece on a competition entry and then to be equally as selfless with time and effort when realizing the design if the team wins the competition
this sounds like working harder and taking a brute force approach to accomplishing work --- is this a correct understanding?
if so, once one wins and becomes a designer of some renown, it seems like one must perpetuate the exploitative work environment --- if you won and all of a sudden started charging for all of that work, very few people would pay, they would just tell you to go away and they would look for the next person hungry and ambitious enough to do it mostly for free
so if i am getting the gist of all of these threads correct, there is nothing mystical about working on such projects, other than perhaps the resources and histories of the clients and the prestige involved ---- rather, it is reasonably talented people willing to subject themselves to absurd work regimens and pour way more effort into the design of a project than anyone would ever be willing to subsidize
along the way, one proves oneself to oneself, probably improves time-management skills, probably hits the 10000 hours of practice required for expert performance earlier than most by dint of the schedule
but from this perspective, and given that we are talking about brute force effort, time on task and exposure to situations, it stands to reason that a person could put themselves through this hell on their own or with a friend or two, creating their own network along the way and reaping all of the rewards instead of producing for someone else
is this a fair understanding?
lastly, and as a challenge to the presumption that this is how good design gets done, i did work for one firm which designed some very complex projects, pretty much fully compensated with perhaps only minor and occasional exceptions, where none of us ever worked more than 40-60 hours in a week, when deadlines came everyone pitched in, and it was a pleasant, professional environment --- it was just a very well-managed firm --- so i am a bit weary of the idea that the only way to produce compelling work is to give every last breath of one's life to the profession --- or am i mistaken?
Rusty!
Sep 13, 10 9:29 pm
@jmanganelli: Well managed project is key to reasonable workload. In my experience, offices that specialized in a certain type of work (let's say museums), really understood their client's needs and produced work in timely fashion.
On the other hand, offices that leapfrogged around project types were a lot more likely to end up in high stress, overworked-understaffed situations. To each his own.
As far as pulling 100 hour weeks, it has more to do with office culture than anything else. You are expected to be there at 9pm, regardless if you were dicking-around all day or being productive.
It goes back to school days and the all-nighters. Most of which were the result of dicking-around all day long.
Also: dicking-around. I love saying that one for no good reason.
w.roamer
Aug 17, 16 4:46 am
Hey @bigness :
I know that I am late to this thread by a few years and I apologize for re-opening the discussion. But I recently saw your post after googling about internship at ensamble studio and I would like to offer a different perspective. I have just finished an internship there and have many thoughts to share. I thought that it was a valuable experience and I cannot deny that I learnt a lot from ensamble, however I do have a lot to comment upon the subject of their attitude towards their interns and workers. Many things that I experienced lead me to know that I will never allow myself to go through that again. I am currently searching for a suitable platform to share my experience so future interns go prepared knowing what to expect.
Also I feel that there is a lack of transparency in the architecture profession on the treatment of employees and I feel that it is definitely something that should be discussed.
Wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
Volunteer
Aug 17, 16 7:42 am
Medical interns make about $50,000 a year, just sayin'. Then, with any kind of specialty they go north of $200,000 a year after their internship. Newly-graduated lawyers, on the other hand, are lucky to get minimum wage on balance since their profession has cratered in recent years.
curtkram
Aug 17, 16 9:24 am
w.roamer, if you need a platform, go ahead and vent here in this thread all you want.
what ever happened to rusty!?
Peter Normand
Aug 17, 16 9:49 am
People in the profession know OMA and lots of other "design Studio" firms like ensemble don't pay interns (living wages) and if I saw that on your resume I would think "OMA they must have worked for free, do they not value their own contributions enough to demand to get paid for his or her work?"
If you come out of OMA or ensemble with some mad software skills in software that most firms are using, and you can afford to not get paid then go for it. It won't put you that much further ahead of the pack but if the potential experience that OMA or ensemble can offer is what you think is missing in your life, go for it.
But here is the truth right now 8:48 in the Morning on Wednesday August 17th 2016, We are not in the bad old days of 2008, Jobs that pay have a work life balance and have sane decent coworkers can be found. You just need to have a portfolio and or experience full of realistic buildable architecture. you know stuff with bricks and steel studs and drywall door swing clearances and the required exits.
Want to nail an interview roll out a sheet of wall details you drew and researched.
Show a small project a deck or garden gazebo you built from drawings you did and got paid for that you did for someone who is not one of your parental units.
Over and OUT
Peter N
Everyday Intern
Aug 17, 16 12:05 pm
w.roamer, if you're looking for a platform to write something a little more longform than a thread on the forums, you could write a guest post for my blog on archinect, http://archinect.com/arch-ellipsis. Take a look and see if the platform works for you and your topic.
I've wanted to write something about unpaid internships for a while, but I've never done it because I haven't felt that I had the perspective that might be necessary for a more nuanced discussion of the topic.
tl;dr I've got the platform, if you want to lend your voice.
DeTwan
Aug 18, 16 2:56 am
I think you may have had a hyper architectural experience, much like the hyper reaganomics that china went thur during the oughts. Please explain the transparency issue in architecture and how it meshes with modern politics.
so i write to ensamble studio, great work multidisciplinary practice etc.
they reply 24 hours later, attaching this to their email. it's a pdf you can download here.
www.mediafire.com/?g75rgnxo387db36
(the central part of the thing being:
"We invite you to join Ensamble Studio Access Program! Our aim is to find talented and hard-working people from a wide range of
backgrounds to work in Ensamble Studio.
All those supported by a grant or scholarship are welcome to apply: Students, New graduates, Junior and Senior Architects,
Designers, Engineers, Artists, Historians...We are a multidisciplinar team in which you can develop and strengthen your abilities.
You don´t need experience if you are active, self-disciplined and confident in a complex environment.
Please, don´t send us your CV. Complete this form and submit it by e-mail, and you will have the opportunity to show us your best
skills.")
my reply was this:
---------------------------------------------
Thanks for your reply.
I know times are hard and I also know you are a young studio, doing a lot of research and competition, work which usually does not produce revenue.
But offering an unpaid internship to an experienced architect (and by reading your form, this seems to be a common practice of yours, given you offer the "program" to junior and senior architects too) is rather offensive for the person you are contacting, even if just for a month and with the possibility of employment, and truly a sign of a culture of exploitation that is apparently still very much present in the architectural world.
Regards,
Bigness
---------------------------------------------
and this was to keep it polite...a month of free work for the POSSIBILITY of employment? junior and SENIOR architects? FUCK YOU. please, do yourself a favour and NEVER work for free. ever. get a job at mcdonalds and do competitions on your own, but NEVER work for a handshake and a pat on the shoulder.
it also says " YOU ARE REQUIRED TO BE SUPPORTED BY A GRANT OR SCHOLARSHIP". Does that make a difference in your opinion?
I think they auto responded to your inquiry with a non applicable form.
Not sure what your situation is, but if you are unemployed and trying to find a survival job until the industry bounces back, applying to starchitects will probably leave you feeling deflated. Aim lower.
Take me for example. I really hope something comes out of my recent application for a cad-guy for custom residential kitchens! I've been staring at my phone all day today! Any second now! $12/h? Sold!
no, I'm not unemployed, just looking around. and applying to all sorts of places, from corporate to design and other things. it's just funny...how people still think they can fuck you over with a grin on their faces. it's just because people let them do it. it's an old problem
I agree. You're 29. You should understand the state of industry at this point. Stay away from branded names and you'll be fine. There's plenty of great work coming from companies 'no-one's ever heard of'.
Companies that seek (and are able to get) free labor account for such a minuscule portion of the overall profession. They do get a disproportionate amount of publicity though. How starstruck are you? It's a mesmerizing game for 21 year olds. Not you. Your ego has been completely shat on years ago, So why worry about it?
bigness, In addition I really doubt they are a young studio who cannot afford paid positions. This is Anton Garcia-Abril's own house in Madrid:
http://www.archinect.com/features/article.php?id=86350_0_23_0_M
aahahaha, I like the shat on ego. it's worth trying. there are design firms out there that pay decent wage. all I am saying is that we shouldn't offer the chance to the bad guys to get shit for free. if they tried to do it with me it's because they succeded in doing it to others. nd I believe their attitude has nothing to do with the state of the market. believe you me, I have worked for the beautiful and the ugly, the sinners and the saints.
hawkin: and sports a real bad hairdo. damn that' a big beam.
For my experience (and most friends) the starchitects on the rise (well, it is hard to say that they are an starchitect!) are the worst!. Worst payers and worst egos.
I have worked for 2 starchitects (real starchitects :)) and while the working hours were mad, the pay was the standard for their respective markets (even slightly higher in one of them). Sometimes people assumed that I worked for free (I definitely would never work for free) and they even thought I was lying to them by telling that I had a "normal" salary.
I know of star places where they even do normal hours...and of other (one not so famous firm in japan) where a guy with 10 years experience in a major international office was working 7 days a week for no monies.
there are stories on both sides.
but these people should be slapped around the face (the employer AND the employees) while someone shouts:
WHAT THE FUCK WERE YOU THINKING!
Hah! Garcia's hairdo is epic! I hope he 'designs' a building in the image of that 'thing'. Back to back Pritzkers guaranteed...
I'm a wee bit older than you bigness, and I have learned to tune out certain practices. They will always be desirable to the impressionable youth. GREAT place to learn, get a haircut, etc... Just let go. There are a number of recent threads on here about people desperate to get an OMA internship. They have yet to be pooped on. Let them get what they want!
Hawkin: did one of the owners of the 'well' paying starchitectural office by any chance own a private airplane? It really sounds like an office I consulted for...
Ahah, no. But Foster is probably more corporate than starchitect.
As for OMA, 700 euros for let's say 6 months when you are 23 and little to none experience, I feel it is not THAT bad. At the end, it is the most influential architect in the world, and OMA is definitely very flashy in your resume for whoever. And in this current economic situation, you see Mr. Average Joe Architects willing to pay peanuts for interns, so I would rather go with OMA for 700 euros rather than with Joe Arch. for 1000 USD a month :)
see steel, I recently walked away from a job in a design office, fancy and all that. decent pay, responsabilities, crazy hours but hey. I only had a problem with the location (beijing, way too polluted for my liking). so it can be done. And my attitude is always to give it a try, an email don't cost a thing. If i see interesting work I will send them a cv. Many times it just resulted in nothing, other I eneded up meeting the guys and actually setting up a (culturally) rewarding collaboration. you never know.
but to offer an architect with 5 years experience, a "goo" profile and built work, an unpaid internship, is just cheeky. and cheeky sometimes deserves a slap in the face, all I'm sayin.
oma I would do it for less money than others, but that's just for who they are, how much I admire them and what they could teach. and it's not about fashination, it's about personal and professional growth. but I would never compromise my economic situation for that, that's all.
i meant "good"
Steelstuds... Toll Brothers is hiring CAD drafters in Orlando for $8.75 an hour.
"As for OMA, 700 euros for let's say 6 months when you are 23 and little to none experience, I feel it is not THAT bad. At the end, it is the most influential architect in the world, and OMA is definitely very flashy in your resume for whoever. And in this current economic situation, you see Mr. Average Joe Architects willing to pay peanuts for interns, so I would rather go with OMA for 700 euros rather than with Joe Arch. for 1000 USD a month :)"
This is true... to a point. OMA is great if you continue to work for stararchitect/large corporate offices. However, things like OMA can be a liability on your resume if you start applying for jobs at smaller offices because they are going to immediately think of you as an ego-driven designer with no interest in anything beyond schematic design.
my guess is, you jump on the oma train, then you're either gonan go at it alone or move to similar places. but yeah, you do have a point. is like a degree at the AA, joe average wouldn't employ you.
I can't share your points of view. I know more or less what I am talking about :). An OMA (or similar) is a big boost anywhere.
- For any big corporate firm is a definitive advantage (SOM, HOK style, etc.) They are smart enough to know that after a few years of slavery, you probably want a better paid / better hours / normal life job. Because you worked there, they will assume that you are very competitive, good in design and ESPECIALLY you are able to work under high pressure. All of them are very good qualities to success on a firm. Plus they know you will appreciate a well-paid and relatively unstressful job.
- Add to this your regional/local corporate firms where your OMA/starchitect thing can make a kind of Wow factor. Probably your filthy rich boss (who at least knows who OMA is) is happy to hire someone who can bring some "hype" to his repetitive designs of office buildings.
- For any nice boutique firm (whoever publishes in Dezeen, let's say), that is a plus. Just look how many people have worked at OMA (basically every starchitect on the rise). It's a kind of alumni thing, let's say.
- Not to mention how much attraction it will bring in most emerging economies. Imagine you move to Kazakhstan or China with a Nebraska University degree. Definitely an OMA or starchitect internship will give them a reference of something they know. It may seem dumb, but we live in a very globalized and brand-orientated world, and OMA (or Zaha or H&dM) is to architecture what Gucci or Porsche is for fashion or cars: they are known everywhere in the world (at least architects know them).
Yes, probably at Toll Bros. in Orlando, FL, your OMA thing will be looked awkward, and probably they will hire Mr. X who never went North of Fort Lauderdale and will be happy with his Wal-Mart salary. But it will definitely open you more doors than it will close. And it will open you the doors you would like to open.
At the end of the day it is way easier to jump from the starchitect world to the standard/corporate than the other way around. (Well I hate to do such distinctions because I cannot see that difference).
Also, from my experience, I agree that there are many ego-centric people who work in starchitect offices. But (especially at a firm with such a theorical background like OMA) many other people just want to work there for a few months to see first hand how it is and learn as much as they can from that experience. Nothing else.
I didn't mean to bring up OMA in this thread, but since I have, I have a follow up question...
What's the appeal of OMA? Am I too obtuse to get it? The work is kind of typical blocky dutch style that relies on simple geometries that would be a smash hit with your toddler.
The work also consistently uses very flat facades. This is great if you're into supermodels, but if you like some meat on the bones, you'll be left feeling less than hard. Mind you, all-out tits-and-ass approach done by likes of Zaha is also not much of a turn on.
Oh, Antón García- Abril of ShowCase. Why must you be my only arch hero in these scary post-everything times?
Either he hasn't updated his website in a while or he hasn't built anything since 2007.
Updating website = bad marketing, slow to get work
Hasn't built anything = Can't afford to pay anything
ss - do you know why you called oma's motus operandi the 'typical dutch style?'
that would answer your question.
to be honest, i kind of dislike oma for a variety of reasons, but i dont think their projects stem from a stylistic agenda. perhaps the interest in 'scripting social phenomena' has become a style which has been adopted and adapted by other firms [rex, jds, mvrdv, big, work ac all come to mind].
that said, i dont think you're obtuse at all, perhaps you just dont really like dny,smlxl, or cntnt. nothing wrong with being turned off by propaganda. happens all the time.
jplourde, I like OMA's work. I just don't find it to be anything terribly special either. The reputation far exceeds the merit IMO.
lol, go visit seattle public or casa da musica and then come back and say it's not worthy of merit :)
oma isnt the end all be all, but one cant really disregard them [him] as inconsequential either. delirious alone holds more water than peter cook or superstudio did.
I have been to Seattle Library. It works great as far as perfectly blending in with corporate surroundings of the downtown area. To be fair, building was surrounded by people in an otherwise empty part of town. Not sure if it was the books or the building that did the trick. Free internet access would be my guess.
steel--you are kinda limiting your judgement on looks here...
oma's buildings are basically mies' building out of a car crash, the aesthetic has been the same since the beginning. what they are to be recognized for, and what makes them the most important office of their generation, is their take on program, typologies and society at large.
"steel--you are kinda limiting your judgement on looks here...
oma's buildings are basically mies' building out of a car crash"
Sorry bigness, but comparing rems junk to Mies is like comparing piss to wine.
don, all I am saying is that the looks of rem's buildings is mostly based on a re-working of the typological mies costruction systems, as if they had been put in a blender: plain concrete walls (casa da musica), steel and glass facades (seattle library, cctv) with mullions, etc. in mies, they are used in the simplest form, in rem they are twisted and distorted to wrap around his off the wall spaces and arrangements. rem himself has said that many times ("I love mies, I studied mies, I even dismantled mies" ore something like that), and if you look at the buildings you will see what he means. all I am saying.
and, on a completely different note, I think there is a good chance that 100 years from now they will talk about rem like they do now of corbusier and mies. just because there where people 1000 years ago saying the same stuff you are saying , about mies and...palladio. and please don, understand what people are writing before criticizing.
hasn't this all gone a bit off topic?
Bigness, I didn't read the full thread, just your initial post. But I just wanted to share my experience with Ensemble. A year ago, I was running around Madrid, dropping of my cv at various firms. When I knocked on the door of Ensemble, the young lady who answered the door didn't want to take my resume, but told me about this access program. I convinced her to take my cv anyways so she could send me the link to download this pdf. I'll admit, I debated signing up for 6 months and not pay, but it would have been impossible to hold another job because you work from 8am to 10pm. After thinking about it for a couple of days, I concluded that this studio is full of shit, and reading your post makes me feel vindicated. At age 29 with a professional degree and 4 solid year of experience under my belt, I would never work for free.
Its not only offensive to experienced architects but it is also cowardly by stealing internship position from people students or grads really need it.
not it's shit and people like them should be reported to their registration offices/bodies for professional misconduct.
No one should work for free, unless they're working for themselves and so choose to do so.
If a firm's economic model is built upon free labour, then it will fail if that free labour dries up. It's just not a sound business model, nevermind the ethics.
That said, Libeskind and OMA pay interns a small but livable wage. They understand that to devalue the cost of design services at such a base level is a defeatist philosophy and economic model. Manhours cost what they cost, if you can't compete with other firms by offering a better product or a leaner production method, than you won't compete longterm by devaluing your young for economic purposes.
well bigness, i'm not a stranger to the former journalist (rem) and his statements, it's obvious that he has an inferiority complex in regards to Mies.
A hundred years from now people will remember this period in architecture as a misguided, and degenerate time, and rems name will be associated with it.
don, they where saying that too, a hundred years ago.
well around 1900 it was a misguided time in Europe Mies did mention this then the wasmuth portfolio was published, and then we had a stable period of enlightenment in architecture which in my opinion ended around 1975.
The bottom line is that rem will forever be associated with arbitrariness, like a lot of other long forgotten phases in architecture.
we shall see. just try and use conditionals in your statements about the future, it helps finding empathy in the listeners regardless their acceptance of your theories :)
I am officially over the 100 post mark! does archinect send us some kind of gift or letter of congratulations? ok i think its time i took a vacation, from archinect. some of you other people with thousands of posts probably need to get up off that chair and take a shower.
certainly it should for a 100 posts in less than a month!
(uuuuh, nasty! been on archinect for uhm, 7 years now? been also blogging for the site for two years so if it's a shot at me, I am not exactly a forum troll...)
no it was not a shot at anyone, but one month is enough for me bigness.
ps. with over half of the architecture community unemployed are you surprised that we post on here often?
it just takes such a long time to send those cv's. seriously, it does, the down time is minutes for every email.
i have noticed that steven ward is coming up on 10000 posts
that does seem like it deserves something special
are there others (or many others) over the 10000 post mark?
I think paul should wine and dine him, at least :)
I guess my question would be the same as it always is in cases like this: if a for profit firm (who is not a starchitect and you're not just chasing after the glamour of it all) offers you no-pay or a small stipend or whatever, why would be oblige? Instead, volunteer your time (or accept discounted pay) with a CDC or some other non-profit and design housing or temp shelters or whatever and do something that takes advantage of your skills.... There are literally thousands of CDCs in this country - and in every city - and every of them needs architects and architectural designers they can't afford to pay for. ...and instead of enriching an exploitative for-profit partner at a firm, you'd actually be helping people out.
urbanist: yeah I agree, but some people think that working for a boutique firm, even if for free, will later bring dividends in terms of cv and portfolio, whereas working for architecture for humanity won't. and, considering things from that perspective, those people are right.
there should be no such thing as free work. there should be volunteering, but I wouldn't call working for ensemble for free volunteering :)
i've never worked for a starchitect or anyone with those ambitions, but it seems there is a trend on this and other threads in relation to this issue
whether due to lack of resources or lack of ethics, ambitious designers convince other designers to donate large amounts of time designing for/with them in the hope that they will win a competition and get prestigious work built
it sounds like this usually entails having two or five or ten people spend 50 or 100 or 200 hours a piece on a competition entry and then to be equally as selfless with time and effort when realizing the design if the team wins the competition
this sounds like working harder and taking a brute force approach to accomplishing work --- is this a correct understanding?
if so, once one wins and becomes a designer of some renown, it seems like one must perpetuate the exploitative work environment --- if you won and all of a sudden started charging for all of that work, very few people would pay, they would just tell you to go away and they would look for the next person hungry and ambitious enough to do it mostly for free
so if i am getting the gist of all of these threads correct, there is nothing mystical about working on such projects, other than perhaps the resources and histories of the clients and the prestige involved ---- rather, it is reasonably talented people willing to subject themselves to absurd work regimens and pour way more effort into the design of a project than anyone would ever be willing to subsidize
along the way, one proves oneself to oneself, probably improves time-management skills, probably hits the 10000 hours of practice required for expert performance earlier than most by dint of the schedule
but from this perspective, and given that we are talking about brute force effort, time on task and exposure to situations, it stands to reason that a person could put themselves through this hell on their own or with a friend or two, creating their own network along the way and reaping all of the rewards instead of producing for someone else
is this a fair understanding?
lastly, and as a challenge to the presumption that this is how good design gets done, i did work for one firm which designed some very complex projects, pretty much fully compensated with perhaps only minor and occasional exceptions, where none of us ever worked more than 40-60 hours in a week, when deadlines came everyone pitched in, and it was a pleasant, professional environment --- it was just a very well-managed firm --- so i am a bit weary of the idea that the only way to produce compelling work is to give every last breath of one's life to the profession --- or am i mistaken?
@jmanganelli: Well managed project is key to reasonable workload. In my experience, offices that specialized in a certain type of work (let's say museums), really understood their client's needs and produced work in timely fashion.
On the other hand, offices that leapfrogged around project types were a lot more likely to end up in high stress, overworked-understaffed situations. To each his own.
As far as pulling 100 hour weeks, it has more to do with office culture than anything else. You are expected to be there at 9pm, regardless if you were dicking-around all day or being productive.
It goes back to school days and the all-nighters. Most of which were the result of dicking-around all day long.
Also: dicking-around. I love saying that one for no good reason.
Hey @bigness :
I know that I am late to this thread by a few years and I apologize for re-opening the discussion. But I recently saw your post after googling about internship at ensamble studio and I would like to offer a different perspective. I have just finished an internship there and have many thoughts to share. I thought that it was a valuable experience and I cannot deny that I learnt a lot from ensamble, however I do have a lot to comment upon the subject of their attitude towards their interns and workers. Many things that I experienced lead me to know that I will never allow myself to go through that again. I am currently searching for a suitable platform to share my experience so future interns go prepared knowing what to expect.
Also I feel that there is a lack of transparency in the architecture profession on the treatment of employees and I feel that it is definitely something that should be discussed.
Wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
Medical interns make about $50,000 a year, just sayin'. Then, with any kind of specialty they go north of $200,000 a year after their internship. Newly-graduated lawyers, on the other hand, are lucky to get minimum wage on balance since their profession has cratered in recent years.
w.roamer, if you need a platform, go ahead and vent here in this thread all you want.
what ever happened to rusty!?
People in the profession know OMA and lots of other "design Studio" firms like ensemble don't pay interns (living wages) and if I saw that on your resume I would think "OMA they must have worked for free, do they not value their own contributions enough to demand to get paid for his or her work?"
If you come out of OMA or ensemble with some mad software skills in software that most firms are using, and you can afford to not get paid then go for it. It won't put you that much further ahead of the pack but if the potential experience that OMA or ensemble can offer is what you think is missing in your life, go for it.
But here is the truth right now 8:48 in the Morning on Wednesday August 17th 2016, We are not in the bad old days of 2008, Jobs that pay have a work life balance and have sane decent coworkers can be found. You just need to have a portfolio and or experience full of realistic buildable architecture. you know stuff with bricks and steel studs and drywall door swing clearances and the required exits.
Want to nail an interview roll out a sheet of wall details you drew and researched.
Show a small project a deck or garden gazebo you built from drawings you did and got paid for that you did for someone who is not one of your parental units.
Over and OUT
Peter N
w.roamer, if you're looking for a platform to write something a little more longform than a thread on the forums, you could write a guest post for my blog on archinect, http://archinect.com/arch-ellipsis. Take a look and see if the platform works for you and your topic.
I've wanted to write something about unpaid internships for a while, but I've never done it because I haven't felt that I had the perspective that might be necessary for a more nuanced discussion of the topic.
tl;dr I've got the platform, if you want to lend your voice.
I think you may have had a hyper architectural experience, much like the hyper reaganomics that china went thur during the oughts. Please explain the transparency issue in architecture and how it meshes with modern politics.
Now that's a good final thesis...