I was wondering the same thing. I'm in a similar position - in at Michigan with no merit scholarships. In at Wash U, adv standing; hopefully they will help out more. I'm already 75k in debt, and not sure if 150k would be wise.

no.

http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=96205_0_42_100_C

zga_ with 75K of debt, possibly all student loans, how much are you paying every month? i'm in debt 35k from undegrad at ucla and pay about $200/month. i really don't think i can take 150k in student loans. here's to hoping i'm admitted to ucla or berkeley so that the most i would owe is like $60-70K when everything is said and done.

I'm going to throw my hat into this one as well even though I want to stay on the high of acceptances and not worry too much about the $$ aspect. Both the schools i've been admitted to are on the expensive side, both have offered me scholarships for a portion of that tuition, but one will require an extra year out of me... and thus another year of tuition. hmm...money, sigh.

i'm going to go out on a limb and claim that no M.Arch degree is worth $100k+ in debt.

seriously, the long term finances won't work out for the majority of people considering it. have you talked to any architects who have that level of debt? especially those 3+ years out of school?

as much as I'd love to go to GSAPP (ivy league, amazing program, love the city, etc.), I don't know if I can do it financially. UT Austin is also a fantastic program (GSAPP is ranked no. 4, UTSOA is no. 5 for graduate arch programs), in a great city. The kicker is that it's literally half the cost of GSAPP for a non-resident, and after I get residency, that drops to a quarter the cost of GSAPP.

I just don't know if it's worth it..

that's truly insane. i really can't fathom paying 20,000 - 30,000 for just one year tuition alone. that's 3.5 years of arch grad school up here. boggles my mind every time i hear it. how do you guys/gals do it? I'm pulling for you guys. the system isn't really set up well, down on the lower 48. good luck, be smart be prudent. everything has consequences.

yeah trying to fund grad school is going to be a big pain, not to mention having all of that debt once we are done. Im in a slightly different situation having an undergrad degree in architecture, but it will still be 2 to 2.5 years of tuition.

UMich (the only place i've heard from so far) for an out of state resident is 33K a year with the estimated overall costs around 50k +

I would argue that the name of school isn't going to make someone a better architect or designer, but it might potentially open up a few more doors in the long run. The question is whether the extra cost is worth having more opportunity. (not to say this is always the case, just from my experiences)

Ultimately that would be the question for myself, which school will provide the best opportunities and whether or not the costs are worth it.

I agree that the name of the school itself will not make you a better architect or designer based on their prestige, but clearly the better funded programs can provide more opportunities for exploration (for example, getting to use 3-d printers and plasma cutters at schools with better facilities).

However, the high cost of many, if not all, of these programs that blow you away with amazing facilities or all-star faculty only do so by making you pay for every single aspect of it, and, as you probably all know, you are mainly paying for notoriety. To cap it off, you aren't guaranteed shit after you graduate, including a successful career, so it's a HUGE gamble, especially in the current economic climate.

I think if the school has the teachers and facilities that you think you will NEED to learn about design in meaningful ways and create a skill-set that you find necessary for your success as an architect or designer, then perhaps it is worth it to go into "crazy debt". education. I know it's an investment and we all want to have awesome qualifications, but getting ripped off is a real possibility. I mean, who goes to Marc Jacobs to buy a $500 shirt because they think, "It's the only way I'll ever be able to find a good shirt"!!! No one does that or thinks that! People buy that stuff to show off, pure and simple, and, in my opinion, paying $100K+ to buy into that self-satisfying principle is practically the same. If you cannot find a recipe for success in any of the cheaper public programs... well, you're probably an elitist then, but I digress and I'm not trying to pick any fights with people that only found private programs to meet their needs. My main point is that any program is 90% what you make of it, and it's always a gamble.

Rant=Over

100K isn't really all that much anyway. That's the cost of a shitty house in the ghetto. If you don't think you're education is equal to the cost of a shitty house then don't do it.
Ha, OK, maybe that is an oversimplification, but I just wanted to play the devils advocate here and say it's not as "crazy" as everyone makes it out to be.

ave_ i actually appreciated that rant. i'm a bitch who owns an expensive ass marc jacobs bag, which i've ended up using everyday and beating up. believe it or not, it's still in great shape after daily beatings. i also drop my iphone several times a month, so i guess i'm not a careful person. a good case is a must! i'm actually ashamed to have a marc bag and wear it so the label is never seen. i had always dreamed of one and finally saved up and took the plunge.

anyway, i really needed that lecture because i NEED to think long and hard about the money factor when everything is said and done. i confess to being jaded by the workforce, being in that world for over 5 years. i was making decent $ and had enough disposable income to get lost in the hype of over consumption and what not. i have to say that the pay cuts i've received due to the recession/economic downturn hit me hard. i'm not a person who has been generally bad with money, able enough to save well when i have goals. that's not how it it is anymore, and that hasn't been the case in 2009. last year was probably the worst for me financially. enough about that mess!

just checked and turns out even public state schools like ucla and berkeley are still pretty high up there... does anyone know if the $10-12k is per semester or per year? i thought it was per year, but i'm starting to think it might be per semester.

$100k seems to be the minimum debt for those of us on the 3 - 3.5 year m. arch track. depending on the school, that might just be enough for tuition. if tuition at schools like ucla and berkeley are really on $12k/year, then i think i would only have to accumulate $60k-80k in debt. only to earn probably less than i make now after graduating. i need to stop depressing myself :/

it's important to focus on the fact that i'm doing this for the love. sometimes, you have to take a leap of faith, right?

ave_ i actually appreciated that rant. i'm a bitch who owns an expensive ass marc jacobs bag, which i've ended up using everyday and beating up. believe it or not, it's still in great shape after daily beatings. i also drop my iphone several times a month, so i guess i'm not a careful person. a good case is a must! i'm actually ashamed to have a marc bag and wear it so the label is never seen. i had always dreamed of one and finally saved up and took the plunge.

anyway, i really needed that lecture because i NEED to think long and hard about the money factor when everything is said and done. i confess to being jaded by the workforce, being in that world for over 5 years. i was making decent $ and had enough disposable income to get lost in the hype of over consumption and what not. i have to say that the pay cuts i've received due to the recession/economic downturn hit me hard. i'm not a person who has been generally bad with money, able enough to save well when i have goals. that's not how it it is anymore, and that hasn't been the case in 2009. last year was probably the worst for me financially. enough about that mess!

just checked and turns out even public state schools like ucla and berkeley are still pretty high up there... does anyone know if the $10-12k is per semester or per year? i thought it was per year, but i'm starting to think it might be per semester.

$100k seems to be the minimum debt for those of us on the 3 - 3.5 year m. arch track. depending on the school, that might just be enough for tuition. if tuition at schools like ucla and berkeley are really on $12k/year, then i think i would only have to accumulate $60k-80k in debt. only to earn probably less than i make now after graduating. i need to stop depressing myself :/

it's important to focus on the fact that i'm doing this for the love. sometimes, you have to take a leap of faith, right?

You all should check that thread that on the fence linked too.

There's an excel spreadsheet I made that sums up a lot of your questions.

If you have little to no undergrad debt, financing a master's with a traditional student loan is really not that bad. In fact, you end up with about 100 bucks more a month in cash than your bachelor friends despite paying $550 a month in debt payments.

thanks, montagneux. that was very helpful. i couldn't really read it on the actual thread, so i just dragged the jpg's on to my desktop. wow! the payments on about $100k of student loans is about $550/month. hmm, i don't know. that's how much my share of the rent is for a 3 bedroom house with 2 other roommates. i guess more sacrifices will need to be made on my part.

which reminds me, i better take my car in for that toyota recall repair. i need to take good care of my car and make sure it lasts for another 10 years, which is totally possible with a toyota. it'll help to not have a car payment when i graduate. i wish i was rich!

You can figure out your payments pretty easily in Excel.

use the =pmt() function.

a 100k would be this function for a 5.6%, 10 year loan.

=PMT(5.6%/12,120,100000)

$1,092 a month.

The $550 figure is what you would be paying if you financed 75% of the estimated $67,400 cost of going to school I averaged from 4 different samples of cheap state schools versus expensive private schools.

Read your fee schedules closer. I feel some of you maybe confusing cost of attendance with tuition costs.

I did the percentages of amount financed because some of you maybe able to luck out with finding a job with school and cut the costs of attending school drastically.

I.e. If you're going to a school like Berkley, then my spreadsheet will obviously be closer to the truth.

At 67k total for 3 years, you're looking at about $23,000 a year. If you are financing 75% of that total... then you need $5750 out of your pocket or by the end of the year next year. To cover than cost with a part-time job, you'll have to work 640 hours at 9 dollars an hour or 42 weeks at 15 hours a week.

If you work 25 hours a week at $9/hr, you'll come out with about $6,000 ahead.

If we included taxes into this situation, you're going to have to look at pretty much working 40 weeks a year, 20 hours a week to lower your debt liability to pay for masters.

Tuition per year for California residents:

An M Arch at UC Berkeley: $9,399.25

An M Arch at UCLA: $10,822.50

However those of us who applied to UCLA for 2010 got an email stating that beginning Fall 2010 there will be a new professional degree fee of 8,000 per year. The UC Berkeley tuition already includes a $3,000 professional degree fee, so I'm not sure if UCLA's tuition includes one as well, and they are just raising it, or if they are tacking on the whole $8,000/yr to the $10,822.25 they already charge. So, going to UCLA AUD could cost as much as $18,822.50 a year in tuition alone. Still not *terrible* in the scheme of things. Then again, with the budget in California being the way it is, who knows how much the tuition could be raised over the next few years.

I made a mistake. At UC Berkeley, that is $9,399.25 per semester. So you are looking at the same cost for either UCLA or UCB, about $18,800 per semester in tuition (residents).

thanks, cew. that's what i was trying to figure out. i must have rounded up to $12k because i saw a # that was close to around $11k. wow, i didn't realize it was per semester. crap.

appreciate all the insight, ya'll!

I was admitted to the option three at WUSTL = around $60,000 a year (includes estimated living costs) X 3+ years = close to $200,000. They offer some sort of scholarship to 50% of their students, so here's hoping.

Concerning a post I read earlier about UT - do they really let you work on obtaining residency while you are a student? If so, that is good news. Oregon does not, even though you will have been living there for three years or so, they will not let you become a resident until you finish - but they do offer deferrals, something that most schools do not offer.

I moved to Berkeley this past summer and decided to stay to attempt to obtain residency. I got my DL and registered to vote, opened a bank account, etc. But have not had work (paid work that is, it is complicated) since i moved here. I am still nervous that even if I get admitted to Berkeley they will still give me a hard time about in-state residency. I went through this once before in CO and they are incredibly difficult with these things, particularly with CA being in financial shambles right now.

That's it, thanks!

Made another mistake, meant the UCs are $18,800 per year.

Definitely no. I have six figure student loan debt, and it is really, really, really not fun right now. My grand Ivy League degree has earned me a total of $36,000 this year because of cuts in hours.

Architecture is a boom/bust industry. In the down market, apparently everybody just gets laid off. While I can make my payments fine while I'm employed, from what I've seen many people take longer than a year to find a new job if they lose theirs. Sure, you can put your student loans on forbearance during this time, but that adds a ton of money to the principal of the loan ($8000 per year in my case - and it will be more if I need to do it again next year). So even if you are lucky like me and don't get laid off, you get to spend every day worrying about what might happen if you do.

Also, factor in that many architecture jobs are being shipped overseas. The firms that are thriving through this recession are the large ones which have offices overseas. They can take advantage of cheap labor markets to do work on CD sets. Also, some overseas markets such as China can provide rendering services much cheaper than anywhere in the US because they don't pay for their software. I suggest learning Mandarin while in school if you take the plunge.

90four: regardless of the value you place on your education, it comes down to what you can afford. if you go into 100K+ debt because you want to follow your dreams, i laud your courage, but why not consider the cheaper options? if you work really hard at a state school, your chances of getting a job afterward are just as good. However, if you want to teach, then you might need the notoriety of an Ivy League school to get in the door.

Anyways, I reject the idea that high costs=value.

brand name schools are overrated (i went to one for undergrad).

as someone said in a different thread, your 90% of your education is what you make of it, the rest is the school.

NO...don't go that far into debt for grad school. you will regret it ten years out when are still paying loans.

sixtrain- UT Austin is a great school and a good deal...esp if you are in-state or can get in-state. Save that cash and move to NYC AFTER you graduate.

@tinydancer: thanks for the input! funny thing is, I'm already in NYC. Went to NYU undegrad (totally worth it).

Jeeze, those six figure debt numbers seem totally of ridiculous...

I appreciate everyone's insight and opinions. Sometimes it's difficult to make the decisions when you know they will stick with you for years. This place is a great sounding board for those uncertainties.

I just found out that I got into a program I had been dreaming about. And while that is good news, I found my acceptance letter sobering when it mentioned the full cost of tuition, and the fact that I would not be offered a scholarship. I feel like it would be a shame to turn down an opportunity like this, but I really wonder what the cost benefit analysis of spending more on the pricier program would look like.

Tuition for UC Berkeley or UCLA is about $22k or so per yr, +/- some $ for lab costs, books, etc.

Tuition at, say, Columbia is roughly double, coming in at around $40k + extras.

I would say the cost of living in Berkeley and NYC are comparable, with NYC probably being a bit higher. In the end though, an education from a UC would cost $70k and One from GSAPP would cost $120. With the amount you don't spend by going to a UC, you could pretty much afford to back to school for another degree.

Question then is, are the connections that are made in NYC, the faculty, and blockbuster architects that role through GSAPP worth 2x more than those at UC Berkeley or UCLA?

I wish I knew the answer.

100 000??
Look, I value my education as much as the next guy, but that's just insane.
Earlier, someone made the comparision to the cost of a shitty old house 'in the ghetto', which is all well and good...Except I'm not in a position to consider that either!

Yes... but there's a plethora of articles out thertethat will tell you-- because of aid packages from the Feds and from the schools themselves-- that some of these private institutions are actually cheaper to attend than public schools.

A big difference too is that most people who've already been to school for a B.A./B.S./B.Arch are generally in the income class where they wouldn't even qualify for any sort of assistance from the Feds anyways.

You have to wait til you're 24/25 to be considered eligible for aid programs (even welfare!) because of the dependency clause (i.e., if your parents are wealthy enough [and by wealthy making over $60,000 a year]).

So, in reality, the only way to get through school for cheap is to wait it out or show up at a homeless shelter so someone can stamp you as being officially poor.

There's a great article out there talking about how one of the most at-risk groups for falling into poverty is the upper-middle-class Gen Y/Millenials. A combination of lack of developed economies where these people live, limited access to government programs and a barrier to receiving any sort of aid or funding. There's also that whole argument that $25,000 maybe a lot of money in a lot of places in the U.S. but $25,000 in, say, Boca Raton is toilet paper.

So you take out a 30 year, a $100,000+ mortgage basically to go to the school, except, unlike the "house in the ghetto", at the end of paying that thing off, you have no increase in net worth, no hard asset that you can point to and/or resell or which has appreciated... Only a piece of paper degree that is increasingly becoming inflated... So... you would have to assume that by paying that much tuition and going that much into debt, you are going to be making that much more money upon graduation than a state school graduate, or be that much more well educated... But honestly, based on what I've seen: graduates from IVY league schools don't necessarily make more money than graduates from state schools, they are not more likely to get the job, and they don't necessarily have better work or work harder than the state school graduate... In the end, once out of school, it'll all be what your portfolio looks like, what you've done, and what your skill sets are, what you can do... I'd agree that your education is 90% what you make of it, and less than 10% what school you go to IMHO...

Money may be valued differently in different places, but the reality is: you could graduate from a $5,000/yr tuition school, or from a $45,000/yr tuition school and either way you'll probably end up at the same city, competing for the same job and making the same salary... Or struggling to find a job in this recession either way...

An intern’s salary is tough to deal with right out of school, but what about 10 years out of school? Or 30? It really isn’t until you are a principal or owner that it is possible to begin making back the money you spent on education.

From what I have observed, far more owners of firms have Ivy League degrees then have degrees from state schools. I really don't know why this is exactly, but if all education was the same then is would not be the case. There are always exceptions, but I’ve noticed this to be far more common the its reverse.

I have always thought that the reason for going to an Ivy League school is the potential connections you make and the professors you learn from.

You can not say that taking a seminar with Joe blow teaching at a state school in Nebraska will give you the same insight as a seminar with some of the faculty at the GSD.

The difference may come from the mentality of the people accepted at higher-level schools. Maybe these types of people will thrive in the architecture world no matter what school they come out of. I really don't know.

Right, it's the individual, not the name of the school though... Maybe they had a great professor, who knows... But a starchitect adjunct professor might not necessarily translate into a better teacher IMHO...

Also by the time somebody has worked that 10 years or 30 years, it;s where they've worked and what work they've done that makes the difference, no?

Guy Forget, you said that Oregon won't grant residency status for tuition unless you lived there before being admitted, and that they wont grant it after the first or second year of school. Does anybody know if this is true with UCLA, Cal Poly Pomona or ASU MArch 3+ year programs? It would be ideal for me, as an out of state applicant, to work part time during my first year to get the status.
Thanks in advance

Given the current state of the economy - and what seems to be an uncertain future for the profession as a whole - I'm having some trouble even justifying the debt I'll gain from a local state school.

Hard to imagine taking on six figures

Lots of people mention that the money spent on an education is about a piece of paper (the diploma). If this is true, then DON'T spend anymore than you have to. For me, and hopefully others, it is about the quality of the education, the experience, and investing in myself as a person.
Still, 100,000+ is a lot to swallow on an Architects (or Landscape Architects) salary. But, I personally have a plan. Beyond opening my own design practice one day, I don't plan to have kids, my wife will help me through college (while she works) and I will inherit property in 10+/- years that could easily pay off my debt. Still, it's a big choice, and I will have to make sacrifices. These are sacrifices I am willing to pay to follow my dream. Maybe I'll regret the choice in 10 years, but should I walk timidly through life making decisions only on what is the most economical choice? Or should I take the more risky, but potentially more rewarding (for me) path. Everyone should just think deeply about their OWN circumstance and dreams and not worry so much about those of unknown people on the internet. Each person's circumstance is highly unique.

90four:

True, everyone has different circumstances, and education is certainly not just a piece of paper... It's true that you only live once, so follow your dream and take advantage of the opportunities that are available to you.

Best of luck to you! :)

swandere, I graduated last year from the ASU bs arch, and although I was an in-state student I have heard it is very difficult to get residency in arizona. I had a friend who had to drop out of the M Arch program because her residency was denied at the last minute(after 4 years of living and working in the state with some financial assistance from her brother). If you are working and can prove that you're not getting any money/health insurance/ car insurance paid for by relatives in another state you should be able to get it though I think. But in my experience ASU school of architecture makes you sign a document saying you won't work more than 10 hr/wk during the semester... not that they check up on you, but just a heads up.

re: residency status at UT... the general solution among us m.arch non-res students is to buy some cheap plot of land in the middle of nowhere, TX off of e-bay for $300-400, own it for a year, and voila, you get residency. so after your first year, tuition gets to be $5000-6000 per semester. awesome.

does anyone happen to know any private sources for scholarships specific to m. arch students? that might be something worth looking into.

Does anyone know anything about income-based repayment and/or loan forgiveness?

The only reason I'm even thinking about taking out approx. 100k to go to a top school this fall is because of my assumption that monthly loan payments will be 15% of my discretionary monthly income - and I could have it all forgiven (yet counted as taxable income for that year) after 20 years of payments.

Also, if I work for a non-profit design firm everything could be forgiven in 10 years - and not counted as taxable income.

Does anyone think this sounds reasonable? Stupid? Etc?

PS: The scary part is that if I only pay 15%, the interest will probably triple the loan after 20 years. That's about $350,000 of taxable income if I choose loan forgiveness..

hey blanca_ i noticed that this same conversation is going on here http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=97217_0_42_0_C

anyway, i was looking into loan forgiveness as well as it seems if we work for govt/public agencies or a non profit for 10 years, we can get out student loans forgiven.

what i've learned about this is that it only really helps those who have a huge amount of debt, let's say over $100k or so and making very little, about $30k/year. The amount forgiven does count toward your income for that year.

what scares me about this is the fact that i could start off working for a non-profit, which would be cool, plan on staying there for 10 years, only to get laid off or fired, then the loan forgiveness vanishes.

i think that if somone was able to find a well paying job, it wouldn't be worth it to suffer for 10 years making nothing in hopes for the loan forgiveness since there are many caveats to the deal...

who knows? if i can find a job in the non-profit sector that wouldn't pay me much less than an intern position at a firm, i would definitely go for it!

if you are married to a teacher who works for a public school, who can consolidate your debt with theirs and both have your loans disappear after they've taught for ten years...i think.

i'm actually probably wrong on that. i just heard it from someone.

Student Loans are like mafia, they will hunt you down, your family, your neighbors, your pet, they will drive you crazy no matter what degree you will get, no matter whether you are employed or unemployed, they will hunt you down. I regret going to college, because know I can't even live with all the damn debt...

iheartbooks:

"The difference may come from the mentality of the people accepted at higher-level schools."

As you can see on this board, there are many people accepted at both what you call "lower-level" schools and "higher-level" ones. Some have money, others have courage, and go for it.


"You can not say that taking a seminar with Joe blow teaching at a state school in Nebraska will give you the same insight as a seminar with some of the faculty at the GSD.

Actually, some of the Joe-blows teaching at state schools are incredibly insightful. My theory classes at UT were totally on the par with what I was used to from my undergrad (expensive top 5 liberal arts program in the Northeast). Some of the professors had previously taught at the GSD...


... but hey, you have to justify the price somehow.

On loans,
be careful thinking you can wish away loans on the income-based repayment and/or loan forgiveness -type plans.. that ONLY counts for your federal loans. They don't take into consideration your private loan debt...

just a heads up...

Hi,

Just curious all incoming students on this board. I am kind of interested to know how much debt you guys are going to accumulate after the school? And, do you think it will be manageable?

Thanks!