gardenx - you bring up some good points, and you touch on an irony that is often overlooked, but i think you'll get answers that are too varied to draw any singular conclusion. i don't think there is a direct relationship to debt and the type of work you end up doing, but it is certainly interrelated.

my advice is to chase the big degree only if you can afford it, and by afford, i don't mean how much debt you can stomach, but how much you can afford - i.e. net worth, family wealth, scholarships, etc. the hard truth is, not everyone can afford it. not immediately after undergrad anyway, and unfortunately that seems to be the norm these days.

in the end, there is no right or wrong course to take, only the choices you make and their consequences.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I expect you are correct in what your say.

I'm seeing this situation from two vantage points, actually. As a principal in a small landscape architecture firm I meet with a lot of recent graduates and I'm often astounded by the amount of money they expect to make upon graduation. I live in a relatively saturated design market (Portland - highly desirable place to live in many people's minds) and the market just can't handle the fees that would be required to hire young talent who have huge student loans to pay. We have a progressive and design intensive studio and want to hire the best staff we can afford. We are selective about our work and want the luxury of going over budge on certain projects when it is warranted without the fear of going bankrupt.

So that is one aspect of my question.

The other side is that I have been considering going back to get my MLA at one of the top-tier schools. I'm 38 and see in my practice certain limitations to my education, especially as it relates to the history of my profession. There is part of me that loves the freedom of being without debt and light on my feet. The other side of me longs for a deeper understanding of the work we do.

"There is part of me that loves the freedom of being without debt and light on my feet."

I've actually, seriously looked into selling one of my kidneys on the black market in order to achieve this mythical lightness of being free of debt.

"I've actually, seriously looked into selling one of my kidneys on the black market in order to achieve this mythical lightness of being free of debt." LOL!

Don't be too afraid of debt. I owe a fortune, but I got the education I wanted, which is priceless, imho.

You just have to figure out what is important to you. Don't rely too much on what you think now to be the reality in 10 years. My world is completely different and is far better (both financially and enjoyment) than I thought it could be.

Personally, I don't think Ivy leagues are worth it at all, considering the work that has come out for the last 20 years, but that's subjective.





How much do you get for a kidney?

Professional graduate school tuition debt is a serious issue for all graduate school graduates. But doctors, dentists, and usually attorneys generally earn enough to address school debt, living expenses, and lifestyle expectations, while "Ivy-degreed" social workers, educators, architects, etc, face far different salary expectations. Their starting salaries are significantly lower, because professions (and firms/institutions) can't financially support higher starting pay expectations. Their lifetime earnings potential is significantly lower than doctors, dentists, attorneys, etc, because revenue streams are fundamentally lower, despite an "Ivy" degree.

There lies dilemma; "Ivy" graduate architectural schools are able to charge high tuitions, in addition to burden of high housing and living expenses due to their schools' locations, because students are willing to attend in great numbers despite eventual high student loan burden. There is compartively little financial aid available beyond loans. Cost of "Ivy" MArch degree often outstrips financial benefit of degree (vs BArch or state school MArch) and creates a large "loan vs earnings" burden (unless family resources pay for degree). "Ivy" schools' tuitions were much lower 25 years ago (when I attended); nonetheless, most of my fellow students were from upper-middle class (or outright wealthy) families who paid for tuition, living expenses, and condo or really nice apartment. (My classmates included a number of pampered students who had never worked a summer job.)

"Ivy" degree constitutes "Ivy" schools' self-selected admissions threshold of "innate intelligence, talent, and good-breeding/our-kind" background for schools' graduates. "Ivy" degree will open some doors, particularly for minimum wage entry positions at star-architects' offices for resume-building purposes, or at corporate firms that know "Ivy" graduates are both talented and have likelier ability to cultivate client base connections and eventually become partner material. But architectural work-experience can be far broader than these two scenarios. Fame is likelier to come to an Ivy graduate, because of school, family, and social connections; "American Architects and the Mechanics of Fame" by Roxanne Williamson (1991) is an insightful analysis of "connections". You need to understand your personal goals regarding architectural practice and life experience; cost burden of "Ivy" degree should be considered with your ultimate career objectives. Good luck.

Chicago - what you say rings true and doesn't necessarily make the decision easier. There is a nebulous and somewhat intangible benefit to going to these schools. There is no question about the quality of the education and the caliber of the students attending. The last time I visited Harvard I felt very comfortable with the people and the environment and think I could benefit from that education.

I would like to continue my practice after graduation - perhaps a one year fellowship or Master of Design Studies at Harvard would be a better option. One year isn't a lot of time for graduate level study so I haven't considered it too seriously. I think I would miss the studio experience. Has anyone on here pursued that path? Loeb Fellowship?

I will look at Roxanne Williamson's book. I seem to recall seeing it when it came out.

Trace - where and when did you go to school?

I went to UF for undergrad and UCLA for grad, both degrees in architecture. I looked closely and considered ivy for grad (Columbia, to be exact) but chose UCLA for several reasons.

A good friend of mine was accepted to both Columbia and UCLA and chose UCLA primarily because of the expense of Columbia. This was 6 or so years ago. I don't think he has had any regrets.

Yeah, even with the money they were offering me it was pretty steep. Truthfully, though, that was not a big factor in my decision.

Now if I had known about Columbia's RE MBA/MArch, I would have done that. But I've also a different goal in life compared to my naive, idealistic vision in undergrad!

The price for a kidney ranges between $50,000 to $75,000 in the western world, but the increasing number of people in the third world willing to sell their kidneys for $5,000 or less has made it less profitable.

I never SERIOUSLY considered it... just looked into it out of curiosity. The whole ethics/illegality issue of course.

I have a 5 year undergrad degree from an Ivy, and have been working for five years already, and really, maybe it helped me get into one of my jobs since there were a few other people who had gone to the same school at the firm that could refer me, but it was more because I had contacts than because I had an Ivy League degree. Other people from other less prestigious schools were hired due to school contacts just as much.

In my experience, once one is out of school, where they went to school does not matter nearly as much as their ability to recognize the skills needed to work in the industry, and some of the best designers I know come from relatively "un-fancy" state schools. The theoretical academics that enthralled me in school have proven to be relatively useless in the real world - I've found what's more important is to know how to detail, how to work with codes and consultants, how to satisfy clients financially and programatically, things that were never taught in my school since they were considered too prosaic for the lofty ivory tower. For me, my degree has become just one fancy over-priced status symbol that means little in the real world.

I'm paying 500 bucks a month to pay off loans, and have barely made a dent. Have been unable to save any money in order to possibly buy my own home, or go on vacations, or really do anything requiring a deal of money. Can't see my salary jumping to an significantly higher levels unless I get my guts together to start my own practice, and even then that's not a sure thing due to the huge glut of architects in the market right now.

If I could go back, I would have chosen a less prestigious school, and came out with a lower debt burden, and done just as well professionally.

As a post-note, I did love the school I went to. But since I was working twenty hours a week at a restaurant to pay for rent and bills, I feel like I was unable to extract as much out of it to justify the cost in any way. I really do believe that the Ivies are a viable option only for those people who come from wealthy families that can subsidize the cost. Coming from a lower-middle class income family, I was unable to have any help from mine, and I never expected it. But it does make me just a tiny bit bitter that some of my classmates were able to spend all their time immersing themselves fully into the program without the time pressures of a part-time job, and to emerge from school debt-free, whereas I have saddled myself with life-long debt. Hind sight is 20-20.

"In my experience, once one is out of school, where they went to school does not matter nearly as much as their ability to recognize the skills needed to work in the industry, and some of the best designers I know come from relatively "un-fancy" state schools. The theoretical academics that enthralled me in school have proven to be relatively useless in the real world - I've found what's more important is to know how to detail, how to work with codes and consultants, how to satisfy clients financially and programatically, things that were never taught in my school since they were considered too prosaic for the lofty ivory tower. For me, my degree has become just one fancy over-priced status symbol that means little in the real world."

I'll tattoo these words on my mind!

Ivy League education used to be considered only by the rich in the past because only they could afford it. Not everybody "had a right to" get a college education. Now there is this mentality that everybody needs to go to college. There are so many universities in US and it is incredibly easy to get into them. I'm from another country and I'm dumbfounded by the easiness of getting into a college in US. People go to college without even knowing what to do in terms of career hence the abundance of over-educated fools (that's what I call them). In my opinion you should only invest in education if you already have a specific path in your mind and you believe that education will help you reach your destination. Are you going to make more money and get more clients if you go to an Ivy League school? I have 4,000$ car loan.I had saved up 4,000 cash and took a 4,000$ loan and I find even that difficult to pay back because I have so many other expenses. Next year I'll start paying my school loan which will be about 25,000$. My 100,000$ education didn't help me much in the workplace. It got me the employment but that was it. The rest is up to me.It is so easy to take out loans all you need to do is fill out a paper and you're done but no one considers how they are going to pay all those loans back in the future.Schools don't warn you about that,all they are after is money. They ARE a business. You should only decide to pay 80-120K for a school if you believe you'll earn enough money to pay it back in a short time and don't be fooled by it's prestigious value. I'm planning to go to graduate college because I want to study something different,something that will help me make more money. I'll choose a modest public school.I don't need a prestigious school to get amazing intellectual capabilities or contacts.I do that myself...by reading books and involving in organizations,taking advantage of what NYC is offering me and I'm already ahead of many people in my industry because of that.

Para, exactly.

Gardenx, if I understand correctly, you're a principal at a landscape firm. if so, the Loeb fellowship program is ideal for you as an already skilled professional. Going back to school for MLA, even at GSD, is likely to cover much ground that you've already covered professionally, and you run the risk of being more experienced and knowledgeable than your junior professors. Loeb fellowship lets you explore your interests, take classes throughout university, lecture, and have a GREAT TIME, all in the course of a year, and come back to your office refreshed, reinvigorated, and still with your career intact. Highly recommend that you consider and apply.

These are great impassioned reflections. I appreciate all the comments. For the record, I have no intention of selling any of my internal organs. Perhaps another thread should be devoted to that topic.

Chicago - yes, I have a small office and have wondered about some of the things you brought up. I would not be going back to school to learn how to grade out a parking lot but to expand my theoretical thinking, knowledge of history, and perhaps touch on some policy issues. I have a colleague who recently completed the Loeb Fellowship so perhaps a conversation over lunch would be in order. I know very little about the program beyond its existence...nothing the GSD website couldn't make more clear. Are there similar fellowships at other institutions that you are aware of?

I'm familiar with Loeb program, and am surprised there is no info or application directions on website. Don't be intimidated by application process or "GSD-ness"; it's a great program, relatively easy to enter, and you can fulfill your interests and desired learning path by relying upon all the available resources.

The GSD website has a lot of information. I just meant I hadn't read much about it until a few minutes ago.

what's a 100k? President O will probably relieve all of your debt anyways...

The class system is alive and well in further education and particularly subjects like architecture, unfortunately for the majority of us!

This is an excellent thread.

As someone who went to an expensive sister school of an ivy for undergrad and who is now choosing between two ivy's and a state school (that will provide me with in-state tuition) for a first professional dual degree in LARCH and Urban Planning, I found this thread invaluable.


I know this wasn't particularly directed at young, prospective grad students; however, thank you for the balanced account/comments.

This is an interesting thread. I really wish that more Ivies offered 5 year degree programs. The undergraduate colleges typically have much larger endowments than the graduate schools and offer far better financial aid. For example--Harvard, Yale, Princeton all offer full tuition if your family makes less than $60,000 and something like 80-90% of tutiion if your parents make roundabout of 150K or less. THey are definitely trying to make sure that they get the best students regardless of family income. WHen I went to Harvard for college, the aid was not as generous, but it was very fair. It was not much more for me to attend there than Berkely.


Obviously this doesn't help people applying to grad school. Although, when I went to the GSD the aid was quite good. I went straight from college so the income on my tax return was virtually 0. And my parents made under a certain threshold, so they were not expected to contribute to my my tuition. I received a full tuition grant. I took out about 10 K a year for living expenses. Yeah, somehow I managed to live on little more than that. I foolishly had hoped my MIT studio experience would get me advanced placement, and considered petitioning, and then thinking--well hell, if they think I need an extra year of school and they're willing to pay for it.....

There have been some benefits after graduation in that the majority of the jobs I received, I might not have gotten were it not for my degree. Yeah, most of the time I had to have the portfolio to back it up, but what's kind of scary is a few times I didn't. THat said the ivy degree was by no means a golden ticket--Never was I offered a larger salary because of my education. ANd it's not as though you can get any job you want because of your degree, or move up more quickly. The name get you an interview, but do not assume you won't be forced into cadmonkeydom just because of your pricey education.

I haven't started my own firm yet, so I don't know about getting clients...I hope that some of the people I went to college with might be future clients, but I certainly am not banking on it. ANd how many clients really give a damn whether you went to an ivy? I guess occasionally when I go to the doctor, I'll glance over at where there diploma is from, and it might give me some minor peace of mind to think that they had to have at least a basic modicum of intelligence to be admitted, but beyond that....

I really don't think going to grad school at an ivy helps one get clients much... unless you spend time hobnobbing with people at the business school or in a real estate program. I didn't have time for all that, but perhaps I should have made time. Gardenx , if you get that Loeb fellowship, tap into the entire university, not just the GSD.

If I had to go to the GSD all over again I would, but I'm not sure that I would do it were I an international student form a middle class family.......they don't give aid to non US citizens....I consider myself to be extremely fortunate. The price tag *IS* worth it, but not in an economic investment sense. And I can imagine scenarios where one might be tempted to go the corporate route just to pay back student loans...rather than working for the type of firm that inspired you to go to architecture school in the first place.

Not withstanding, firms need to just start charging clients more, so that interns can pay their loans, but that's another thread. I mean really, it's kind of fucked up that we even have to make this decision. I know there's a recession now so boutique firms are fighting to stay alive, but this was the case before the isht hit the fan too.


I think aid varies wildly from ivy to ivy. A friend of mine went to UPEN only a few years before I finished school and raked up 90K+ in debt not counting her undergrad education...I'm not sure that I'd be willing to stomach that unless I had family money.

ALso, I think in this economy aid might be worse than usual...if I were thinking about grad school I might wait a few years...but Gardenx you should definitely consider a Loeb fellowship.

I'll just say this, since i haven't had any coffee yet: I see lots of economic opportunities right now - yes, in this odd economy - of which I could take advantage if I were not carrying any debt.

No future client cares a bit about your degree. Yes, you will meet people at school who are part of a network that leads to clients later, but moreso in undergrad than grad, definitely. And it happens at every school, regardless of location.

obst's comments were well written but nobody should be confused that they are necessarily THE right anwer. sometimes the path to being a good architect is via pedigreed academia, not just learning the details and how to maneuver in client meetings. and we need all kinds of architects - those who are technically skilled, those who have academic and ivy cv's, those who write specs, and those who understand the politics of getting something good built.

example: i'm pretty well educated, know how to invent some pretty great details (though i haven't had many projects where the client will pay for them), write specs, field school board clients concerns, talk contractor, teach occasionally, know how to walk the green walk (when i can sell it), design reasonably well, etc.

but what i do NOT have is a direct star architect lineage. when our local museum wants to expand, the list does not include local architects of these multiple skills, it includes tschumi, henning larsen, big, why, gluckman.... these are good architects, too, but of a different stripe.

who do you want to be?

there is no right answer about what school to choose, ivy or state or other - it's a personal choice about what you think you want. after some time in undergrad you should have a pretty good idea about that.

a few thoughts:

garden - we're about the same age and, from what you've described, probably run similar types of firms (although i'm architecture based). i did go to the gsd, so i'll vouch that the loeb fellowship is absolutely the best route for you to try unless you need the masters for teaching reasons. no tuition to pay and you get housing covered (or at least you used to), plus a stipend. it pretty much was created for people like you.

if that's not an option, ultimately, i'd really consider, as people mentioned above, why you want to do this. is it for personal fulfillment? to stretch yourself intellectually? is it for networking to try and make the 'jump' into that realm of the hargreaves, etc? is it for some combination of those plus other reasons? personally, the question i'm surprised no one has asked yet is: what is going to happen to your practice if you go back for a second degree? do you have a partner that would buy you out? are you shutting it down? to me, all the momentum it seems like you've built up could be completely wiped out if you take a 1-2 year hibernation to study full time. i'm not sure all the connections you could make in cambridge would replace that.

again, maybe a silly question, but could you supplement your need for increased intellectual stimulation through different conferences, or just taking an extra couple of days off each month to just read or by entering competitions of some sort, to stretch you and the staff?

best of luck with the decision - i am glad i went to the gsd (my wife and i paid as we went, with a smallish loan at the end which we retired early). no regrets at all - as lb notes, most clients don't care, but some actually are impressed a harvard architect is interested in their little project. the friends and connections i made there have been invaluable personally and have helped me the path i'm on now.

and, absolutely having no debt is the way to go. a 'must' rule for my own personal life and one we've tried desperately to maintain here at the office (this past year was hard to maintain that while we were trying to hold on to staff through some very lean times).

sorry - the caffeine hasn't quite kicked in: i did read enough to understand you want to stretch your horizions. what i'm trying to ask is: is there any other path you can see that would provide opportunities to get that in, without having to commit to full time study for 2 years plus?

First of all, let me say thank you for all the thoughtful responses.

The MLA has the advantage of allowing me to teach in the future; a door I wouldn't mind keeping open. Would I use it? I'm not entirely sure, but I enjoy teaching, have done a little of it, and I think it's an interesting way to inform a practice and vice versa.

You ask a number of good questions, Outed. What do you do with a practice while you're gone for one or two years? I have a business partner (we own 50-50) who is very capable, however I do almost all of the design work in the office and lead much of the technical work. My business partner would keep the office running with fewer projects and we would pick things up when I return. Realistic? I'm not sure...I've never done this before. I think it's just one of those things you have to step into and adjust along the way. Obviously we have projects that would need to be completed were the practice to close entirely. There are some things that can be done from a distance, though that really defeats the purpose of going back to school in my mind.

I think many of you are correct that an Ivy education isn't necessarily going to bring in more clients or somehow pay for itself in other opportunities. I'm not really interested in that as much as I am in the discipline of landscape architecture itself. My plan right now is to approach the next two years from multiple vantage points. I will probably apply to schools and see where that leads, but also keep other opportunities in mind as well.