I hope my children turn out just like you -

U of Illinois has a MBA/MARCH degree specifically made for people with your interests.

if your main goal in life is to become wealthier, forget about architecture.

^ not true - some architects are incredibly wealthy sometimes by owning a successful firm which specializes in a particular type of building, or through high design and sometimes through savy investment with their clients.

My brother is an investment banker here in the city and I can assure you that field will open up more oppurtunites to develop than architecture will since you will be close to the decision makers. you will still need to hire architects.

Many of the UofI MBA/ARCH grads do work for large property managers and developers and make great money. They are usually in my experiance directly involved in architecture. However if you plan and save wisely, spend frugaly and are prepared - when the oppurtunity arises you will be ready to grab a piece for yourself. Good Luck is the intersection of oppurtunity and preparedness.

Actually my parents business partner is an architect. He owns 25% of our company and he owns 50% of a larger builder. He is wealthier than us. He has been in the luxury home building business for years, and he says it is a great advantage to have an architectural degree in the business.

I have been extremely lucky because I am already close to completion of my summer internship with my parents business partner. I am going to what is supposed to be the best high school in the area, and I have family connections to Yale, and Yale offers a dual degree program. I would love to go to UofI for the location being within a reasonable distance to home.

I am very good with finances. One of my jobs right now is keeping my parents finances straight. Unfortunately, my mom grew up as a "rich girl", and she didn't really know how to save because it was done for her, so I have helped her to do that for the both of us. My father grew up working class and is cheap when it comes to everything, except what he wants, which works for us.

I found that University of Michigan offers the course, as well as University at Buffalo and Iowa State. I cannot find any more.

Investment banking is a great field to be in. I really hope that hedge funds continue to be as popular and as strong as they are now when I am at the age when I can manage them. I have to decide between doing something that is actually beneficial to people, by being a standard mutual fund investment banker or I can go for the extreme money by leading hedge funds. Leading a hedge fund is easier work, but it is also more risky.

: I hold both the degrees you seek. While my comments may come across as somewhat snarky, I'm trying to be constructive.

If you love architecture and want to practice, forget about investment banking.

If you're only interested in wealth, forget about architecture.

To be any good as an architect, you have to have passion and you have to devote huge amounts of time to your craft before you begin to have a clue about what it takes to create a great building - that's why we call it 'practice'. For 99% of us, that means many, many years of modest living.

Besides, once you spend any time in investment banking, you'll realize the money you make there, relative to effort
required, simply can't be matched in either architecture or homebuilding.

Over the years I've known quite a few people with both degrees. Most leave architecture for other fields and never, ever return. Those of us who do think of ourselves first as architects and only incidentally as business people.

Good luck.

By the way, once the rest of Archinect wakes up and reads your posts, brace yourself for some abuse. This tends to be a cynical, somewhat blue-collar crowd - not a lot of tolerance here for the 'silver spoon' set.

BTW, when reading this thread did anybody besides me have flashbacks to Michael J. Fox playing Alex Keaton in Family Ties ?

Thanks for that advice. I have had to deal with that for a longtime. My parents and I used to live in a nice diverse place, then we moved to a pedominantely affluent school district because other kids couldn't get along with me.

I will definitely continue our homebuilding business. With the way technology is, we have many hedge fund managers living in our area, and Chicago used to be for only commodities traders. Would it be wise to seek the dual degree, if I want to just design houses for my parents business, but my full-time occupation would be in the financial sector? I don't know if I can see myself designing homes for a whole bunch of people. I think the money will suit me better, I thought both would be doable.

I have been compared to Alex Keaton before! I am conservative and liberal teachers laughed when I used to wear a Bush-Cheney 04' shirt. I am still this way and I hope everyone leans right this November!

Hey friend,

I hold both the degrees you seek. Unfortunately I am stranded in Nigeria at the moment with 75 million dollars and unless I can deposit this money in a US bank account, the money will be seized by the government.
Small world with delightful coincidences, my late father was also a doctor of medicine and started many of Nigeria's hospitals on the country's shores. We have a lot in common.
You seem like a smart young man with a nice family who understands luxury and good living. Say, you e-mail me to arrange the transfer of the money and further discuss some business both in architecture and development.

Most sincerely yours,
D.Z.

Stop trying to rip me off, I am not stupid. If we believed people like you we would not have any money. It is incredibly rude for you to post that stuff on this helpful forum.

Hmmm..
How about some computer software type of things. I got every hot design and modeling software to shape your beautiful ideas. Cheap!

Most sincerely yours,
D.Z.

What is wrong with you?

Northshore, you seem very bright. I appreciate your interest in architecture and your well-worded topic and responses. It seems clear to me that you are more interested in the financial side of things. In which case, given your current career trajectory, my recommendation is that the architecture degree is completely unnecessary for you. I imagine you may not enjoy architecture school and even more likely I guess that you will not find much use for your training in the end. Architects or home designers (depending on the size of the homes there's a good chance you won't need a licensed professional) are a relatively affordable part of the process. In the end, I think your time would be much better spent on other activities. Likely you wouldn't be adding much value to the process by doing it yourself. Your energy can be directed towards much more profitable endeavors.

Also, don't worry about D.Z. he's just making a joke. Although that joke cost me a few million the last time he posted it.

hey friend,

checking the hours you have been posting in this nice site, looks like you haven't slept all night. for a high school freshman don't you think that's a bit unusual?
did you brake into your father's medicine safe or something?

Most sincerely yours,
D.Z.

northshore,
I have to agree with walldrug it sounds like you prefer the finance side of business. You also seem to have the necessary contacts and cash flow to do well within the real estate industry if you so choose.

With that in mind it might be both easier and better for you to just do an MBA and teach yourself architecture in your spare time. My reasoning is that if you end up in real estate you can always have an architect design the buildings for you whilst you lead the design.
Another option is to take an Arch undergrad with a business minor even and then take an MBA, or just take a BBA undergrad and save yourself the cost and grief of an MBA (this last option assumes you don't want to do IB)

Also IB is a tough field, the hours are horrendous and the pay per hour is not all that great, compare my buddy in IB to me:
He (IBer):
Works 60 to 80 hours/wk earns about $150k/year
Me (engineer):
40hrs/wk and I earn about half of what he does

After (Canadian) tax........he earns about 75% of what I do (post tax) and works nearly twice as much........

If I were to work his hours and get paid overtime at the standard rate (at least for the place I work at):
80 hrs at -- 40 hrs straight time + 10 hrs time and a half + 30 hours double time
This at my pay scale equates to about 200k/yr (half of which goes to taxes)


Unfortunately you won't find many engineering jobs that will allow so much OT work, unless you work on the oil patch or construction engineering in the middle east.


Another option I might recommend for you is a Masters in Real Estate Development, you can find them at MIT, Cornell, USC, Columbia and a few others, they're cheaper than an MBA and more focused on RE fianance and development than a basic generalist MBA, plus it's easier to get in and there are less corporate wage slave wannabees around.

Of course it all depends on your interests, were I in your shoes I would forget the IB and concentrate on using your family's cash to make more cash in an industry you already have contacts and a brand image in. That said I would take a double major in univ in 'business and economics' and 'architecture' (or 'construction engineering/management') it will take at least 6 yrs to finish, but it will afford you the knowledge required to not only build RE but to also understand the entire building process from financing to the chemical properties of brick. Also make sure to take time in univ to socialise, it gets much harder to find like minded people outside of the ivory tower.


Anyway that's my opinion on the matter, you seem like an ambitious kid and I hope all the best for you.

PS. Bush and Cheney, 04??? Those door knobs!...why? Their economic policies are short sighted and akin to feudal policies of stripping the majority of the population of their wealth to boost the fortunes of the minority. All this does is cause a stagnant economy and lower future production by alienating the working and middle classes.

i suggest you follow the path of Francois De Menil...

Having completed my undergraduate degree in architecture and knowing people currently in the dual MArch/MBA program at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, I'm going to recommend UIUC. Or at least don't overlook this program as you have plenty of time to sort through your options being only a freshman.

Though to me it sounds like you're more interested in investments/stock market....money.

doesn't much sound like you love architecture. sounds like you love money. and nepotism. i think any academic institution that still seeks the best , most progressive, and most passionate players in the field of archtiecture would be wise to toss your application aside and make space for those of us that actually believe in architecture.

Don't mean to be harsh, but to equalize the scales in this beautiful country, sometimes, we have to work for what we get. we must earn it. I would venture that your comfort (not to mention horrible political choices) would keep you from making it past the first year of any architectural program worth it's salt. IT IS HARD WORK. AND YOU MUST BE NATURALLY CREATIVE. As such, most creative personalities don't tend to focus on the dollar at such an early age. They are too busy thinking about the other stuff.

Sounds like business is your thing. Now, I can appreciate the idea of merging an MBA with an M.ARCH, and more power to you if you can dissolve my observations.

I have worked hard with a BS in architecture (Georgia Tech) and MARCH (Rice University) as well as an introductory pre-college program in high school at Carnegie Mellon. I have worked for 10 years and I have taught a few design studios at area universities. After all that, I am still constantly challenged as to my committment to architecture...

By this logic, you would not last a day (and the money would make you miserable).

I suggest you go back to your parent's house and keep the family biz going.

"As such, most creative personalities don't tend to focus on the dollar at such an early age. They are too busy thinking about the other stuff"


One thing you will find is that "creative" people think in terms of absolutes such as creativity and money dont mix - a person interested in Business can not be creative and of course - if you voted republican you must be a bad designer.

Learn to ignore these people early - 95% of the design field think exactly like this. Thats Why UIUC is special.

axisofevil platypus,

yes, if you voted for Bush, I think that calls into questions your ability to make decisions. design is all about making decisions. Please don't make this into a democratic republican thing, that is so short-sighted.


look at Peter Eisenamn, he is a Republican. and alot of people think he is a good designer. your argument is not substantiated.

"One thing you will find is that "creative" people think in terms of absolutes such as creativity and money dont mix - a person interested in Business can not be creative and of course - if you voted republican you must be a bad designer. Learn to ignore these people early - 95% of the design field think exactly like this. Thats Why UIUC is special."

interesting that you are speculating on my views....who is the one thinking in absolutes here?

Im a registerd Democrat - but seriously, keep proving my point about "creative" types actualy being narrow minded and full of assumptions, your doing good so far

Hey friend,

You want to buy some stuff? Drawing set with parellel bar and plastic triangles, lead holder that doubles as roach clip, Nigerian cash money, anything you want. Latest drafting and rendering software. Going, going, gone. Act now. Give me a call when you recover from the speed you took last night.
Don't listen to political losers above. They are all talk no action.
Architecture is for losers. only 1 in 2000 makes something out of it. The rest is just bullshit!

Most sincerely yours,
D.Z.

degree zero is hilarious! too funny!
sorry axisofevil, didn't mean to offend you.

Your number one to me, kid.

oh and I am not registered to vote. can't even vote in this country. I am en English born Iranian. Sorry axisofevil, sorry.

if creativity and good decision making were at all related, then van gogh would still have his ear...

I do love architecture, but I don't think I would be happy earning $50,000 or $60,000 per year. It seems like a foreign idea to me. One way that I could cut down on my investment banking hours is by doing what many on Wall Street are doing, but this counts on the hedge fund market, and if they don't start to become regulated and other things. Then I could cut my hours down to about 12, and that is a hard working manager. Most hedge fund managers don't really work at all, but they usually have great staff. There is a hedge fund manager that lives a couple blocks from me and he does everything from home. If I could do everything from home in Chicago, I think I could still focus on architecture and our business. Somehow our business partner is worth in the hundreds of millions and all he is, is a architect and homebuilder. I thought that architecture and money could go together. I will look into the UIUC program, but my parents are all about Ivy leagues. My father a Northwestern alumni called the school and questioned why they did not have an accredited architectural program. I would have loved to have gone there, I only live about 10 miles north. University of Chicago would have been great too. Columbia seemed good, but no dual degree. I have 4 years.

best of luck to you, northshorechicag. i would shoot for Columbia, Almost went there myself for grad school....but...could not afford it. come up with 50K a year and you will be fine. It's a great school. If I didn't have the free ride to Rice, I would have been there in a second.

you are right vado retro...good decision making and creativity are not at ALL related. yea. and the tooth fairy still exists. whatever.

upenn: wharton + penndesign

Do you know anything else about the program?

If you do Penn undergraduate it is possible to get away with 7 years for an undergraduate BA in Arch and a BS in Economics (Wharton) and the two masters degrees.

both are very competitive, and the people in each are very different...i think only a handful of people have actually ever pursued the MBA option concurrently with an MArch...i know more who have done MBA and Planning. you can go to wharton undergrad and take design studios in the college...you could also major in architecture and take finance courses in wharton. majoring in both would be difficult because the schools are separate and each has its own distributional requirements.

although it is very unlikely that your plans as a freshman in hs will look anything like your life 20+ years from now, you might consider the MS Real Estate programs at MIT and Columbia in lieu of the MBA/MArch combo. The MUP at Harvard w/ a Real Estate concentration is also a potential option, although it is a longer program than MIT and Columbia because it includes design studios.

Freshman in High school, huh...probably 14 yrs old?

First of all, I think u r thinking too much ahead of urself. It seems like u want to plan the rest of ur life to become rich through architecture. As time passes by, u will find that the future won't turn out to be what u were planned. If it does, it is boring and sad.

Second, Architecture is not a way to get wealthy. I think u r confused with designing a building with making money out of properties. It is possible if u want to buy some land and build on it and sell it again...but the main purpose of it is not to just make money, but to express ur passion of wanting to build good architeture. Of course, u can be in a "money making machine" architect, but I personally think it is unprofessinal to put money before design.

NOW?? Just relax and have fun. If u still want to apply for arch school at the end of ur high shcool, just apply, and have more fun with it.

it is possible to get away with an MArch in 6 years if you do undergrad arch at penn. a ba in econ is done in the college, not in wharton.

I am hesitant to say this, but my family is already wealthy, but I want to build more wealth. As I said before my interests are real estate, architecture, and Wall Street.

I am guessing I will be 25 when I graduate from graduate school. I want to work on Wall Street, hopefully as a investment manager or hedge fund manager for maybe 10 or 15 years. After that I would like to move back home to take over the homebuilding business. I would like to continue investment work on the side. I am finding it hard to see where architecture fits into all of this, and I don't know if I would enjoy creating structures for people other than myself.

For graduate school I am thinking that I could do an M.Arch/M.B.A. at Yale or UIUC. My other option is just to focus entirely on business and economics and just go ahead and get a standard M.B.A.

For undergrad I pretty much have no idea what I am going to do. My school stresses that kids end up at Ivy League schools. A very large portion end up at Cornell. Then many also end up at Princeton and Columbia. I have to do more research, and I would be very happy if everything turned up the way I have planned it.

Hey, I think van gogh made a pretty good decision of cutting off his ear...otherwise, there would be one less joke about the crazy artists!

But, seriously, maybe the fact that van gogh cutting of his ear doesn't sound like a good decision, the symbolism behind it can pass on for hundreds of years. This is what separates the rationals with emotionals.
This is the beauty of art.

Just think how much money you would save being "in state" at UIUC - so when your classmates are drowning it debt at Yale you will some cash to play with - maybe build a hot boutique space and lease it to a NY fashion shop

this kid has future college burn out pot head written all over him.

Thanks vado retro. I won't be drowning in debt, my parents already have enough money saved for undergrad and graduate. I really hope hedge funds don't die, I have been watching CNBC all day and Jim Cramer is going hard on them.

Hey,

You wanna buy a dog?

D.Z

northshorechicago - when I was your age I used to fake sick from school to watch the stock market observer and call in. i paid a neighbor kid for the right to use his cool treehouse and the rented to the girls down the street. I was addicted to baseball card trading. i sold Dwight Gooden Rookies at $30-40 bucks at the peak. Jerome Walton - the next willie Mays - $225 - he was a bust but I made a mint.

By senior year of high School I decided to go to college to study Journalim and european film History.

Just a warning - sometimes your brain plays tricks on you.

yes and he is still working on his thesis which discusses scorcese's appropriation of fellini's "i vitelloni" opening scene for his own film "good fellas" keep writing. someone will surely want to read it somewherez

liruo has offered the best advice. You're fourteen years old, you shouldn't be planning so far in advance already. Go to a large undergraduate school that will expose you to a DIVERSE world of knowledge. Start off by majoring in Business or something simple, which your parents will most likely support. It is easy to change majors/transfer schools/etc. as your interests evolve.

Then keep your eyes and mind open and plan your path as it appears before you. College should be fun, and you should be enjoying it day to day. Never again in life will you have the luxury of time to expand your mind every moment (and certainly not in a hedge fund management position).

Relax, dear. You have opportunities galore. Be thankful for them and explore.

Hey,

You wanna buy a gas stove and camping gear. Tent sleeps 4 and 2 sleepeng bags clean, lantern, eski. All coleman.

Mate, you wanna buy a cat?

Youd be surprised at the architectural lessons to be found in the stylised character placement of Renais's last year at Marienbad. I wrote a paper on it - want to read it?

Now there is the best advice....Liberty Bell to the rescue.

I have to make sure my father doesn't see this thread. Both my parents made their careers in finance, my sister started off into it too. I however the artist and subsequent black keep my nose down because I didn't want to chase the dollar. Had my father's wishes come to fruition I would completed IBD a year after my Part I, rather I went to grad school, then into project management.

northshore... you seem to be putting alot of pressure on yourself. And I think you already know the answer, you mentioned that you "don't know if you would enjoy creating structures for other people" - that is one of the principle roles of an architect. Even if you are your own boss as a developer you would have to sell the houses to make a profit/income aside from the WSSE/DOW etc.

Oh and I would begin to start diversifying my investments from now. Your fear of the hedge fund collapse could be justified, I would begin looking at government yields (particularly in independent third world economies with existing IMF or World Bank debt) or mutual funds...Jimmy didn't make all his money from singing.

Hey mate,

How about a Korg CX3 Organ. Also cube base amplifier with a generic jazz base, with some cords and shit. My neighbor left them when he went to jail for good. You wanna buy? I'll give you a good price. Make an offer. Guaranteed to pull some chicks when you play.
There is a really good pearl drum set too. that needs some new skins and hi-hat pedal needs some minor repair. jam with your friends.

you have friends? if not, I'll hook you up with some guys in downtown area.
Good guys, just have some court issues now and then.

If investment banking is what you want, then go that way. I don't think you could do arch with investment banking. Too much energy on different things, one being purely profit, the other being, well, architecture.


But if architecture is a true interest, and it needs to be a passion, a lust and a hunger for you to be good, then get an undergrad at a great school, then go get the MBA with a focus on Real Estate Development.

You can make a fortune in RE, even if you don't design the buildings you can hire who you want, guide their designs, etc.


It is a win/win. If you your family has money, that will allow you to finance (more easily) personal ventures, which is the largest hurdle for those of us starting RE Dev.

The sky is the limit, profit is too.


Get a job asap in a large and successful developer's office. Tell them what you want. You'll be able to get wonderful experience and learn the biz, then go to arch school, then get the MBA.

"I am conservative and liberal teachers laughed when I used to wear a Bush-Cheney 04' shirt."

You've had political views since you were at least 10 years old?

I also have to add that I agree with liberty bell. You're putting WAY too much pressure on yourself. You haven't even entered high school yet and you're already trying to plan your whole life. It's great that you know what you want and that you're so driven and focused, but you should try to loosen up a little bit. Things change. I think that in 10 years from now you'll look back and be surprised at how different you are. I, myself, know how many new interests I developed in college and how differently I viewed the world by the end of the 4 years. My advice to you is to keep an open mind, continue to work hard in school, and, above all, to go out and have fun and enjoy being young. In a few years, apply to colleges (Ivy League are great, but not always appropriate) that offer courses in business/finance (obviously an interest to you) and also in art/architecture (to see if you still have an interest in this area and to see if you have a strong creative ability....critical to any design field). Good luck!