As far as the religion. Yes there is an immense religious pressure. Erdogan himself clearly stated that he wanted to raise a religious generation while he labeled those who are not religious (according to him) as "tinerci" (thinner addicts). This is dividing people. Instead of regular schools hundreds of imam hatip schools were opened: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/religious-schools-sprouting-in-turkey-in-wake-of-contentious-reform-bill.aspx?pageID=238&nID=23525&NewsCatID=341
I have yet another video of Erdogan saying "one can't be both muslim and secular"
Here: http://youtu.be/NG9O3dDsxNY
Some other quotes from him:
" Democracy is like catching a train. When you get to your station, you get off."
" A woman without a headscarf resembles a house without curtains, and a house without curtains is either for sale or for rent."
Sorry this is just not the way to gain the hearts of the secular people.
There is picture of him sitting next to the Taliban leader: http://hakimiyetimilliye.org/2013/04/recep-tayyip-erdogan-nicin-basbakan-yapildi-mehmet-bori/
You just can't expect such a person to uphold democratic and secular values. Turkey is a muslim majority country and always have been. We have 82,693 mosques ( http://turkishpoliticsupdates.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/how-many-schools-are-there-in-turkey-how-many-mosques/) we have more mosques than Iran. These people pretend like there were no true muslims in the country before they came to power because according to them the secular muslims who drink, are not muslim enough. I don't care if he is pious, I don't care what he does in his private life but he has no right to interfere with MY private life. He doesn't have the right to tell me what to drink, how to behave in public. He doesn't have the right to tell women how many children to have. Hitler too told women how many children to have. He can't decide whether a woman can get an abortion or not. He doesn't have the right to call people alcoholics. He doesn't have the right to insult any other religious minorities. You can't call a country secular when it has a Religious Affairs with a 3 billion dollar budget. 10 years ago we didn't have any of these problems.
I'm an agnostic lesbian. I realize that I'm even too liberal for the crowd who opposes AKP. Even without the AKP I'd still change my geographic location because my personality doesn't fit into the Turkish norms. I accept that. I have no intentions of making Turkey my permanent home. In Turkey, religion is also a part of the general culture. It will stay that way for generations. All we want is free speech and the separation of religion and the government just like Ataturk intended. Ataturk didn't harm religion, he only separated it form the government. To me it is wrong to jail anyone for their opinions. I would oppose sending people who insult Ataturk to jail. Yes we do get pissed off when people criticize him but to me they should be criticize anyone they want just like I should have the right to criticize religion but if they try to jail people like Fazil Say and say nothing to people who insult atheists/alevis etc. then you can't call that a democracy.
about the abudance of mosques, that is so true. turkey is to mosques like germany is to apotheken/pharmacies.
about the the wee bit of gay scene in istanbul i got to experience....very beautiful people but so stiff ! by comparison, the gay boys in beirut are writhing snakes. it seemed very contained and uncomfortable. i think there were LGBT elements amongst the demonstrators, no?
Parad0xx86, do you support building bridges with Israel (which is neither a truly democratic nor secular state but a decidedly jewish one supporting an apertheid-like system)? I'm not sure whether you sounded disappointed by the lack of bridge building promised by Erdogan or whether you are merely pointing out his hypocritical opportunism.
Yes there were LGBT groups in the protests. There are LGBT activists but life as an LGBT minority is really hard because everyone is in the closet..Dating is too damn hard in this country.
Now I'm not an expert on Israel. Honestly I don't have extensive knowledge on most Middle East countries that's why stick to discussing the US and Turkey but the more I read about the US foreign policy the more I learned about Israel's foreign policy and it turns me off. Ok maybe that would be an understatement. I don't Israel's influence on the US. I'm very angry at Israel for trying to overthrow Assad. I got into lots of arguments with zionists lately I don't find their stance ethical at all. Their aim is to reach Iran and as much as I despise the Iranian regime I don't want the Iranian people get hurt for the price of oil. I know the history of the middle east, David Fromkin's "Peace to End all Peace" put all pieces together for me, I know those countries became colonies of the Western powers, especially Britain so now the US-Israel-SA interference prevents those countries from getting their s**t together.
I'm not sure how much of the conspiracy theories are true such as the zionists wanting to take control. I read Ron Paul and Noam Chomsky so those things are talked often in our libertarian circles. If that is true then I'd say the zionism is quite evil.
Tammuz, I appreciate your reasonable post again. I find myself agreeing with you on most of your points. I am not unsympathetic to the demonstrators - don't get me wrong. I am only concerned at the misconstrued (as always) reaction from the western media as if the demonstrators are fighting in a war between "Islam" and "non-Islam" whch is not the case at all. But is what western media salivates over. I agree with you. It's really more of a battle between the right (which has ALWAYS dominated turkish polititcs) and an upstart leftist movement that is tired of the government/military establishment telling the people what they can or can't do as if their opinions don't matter and the only the government knows best.
BTW did someone really just quote that crusty old windbag, Henry Kissenger?
The Western media was hush hush about the AKP government for so long, now they're showing public dissent and the Putinesque handling of the protesters and you're blaming the Western media? We regularly criticize the Economist for that for example but their new cover is amazing:
By the way, you should follow local sources before resorting to the Western media. Having a knee jerk reaction without even researching what is going on from the local resources is the result of an intolerant attitude combined with the lack of critical thinking skills.
i have not seen anything in US media saying this is a 'non-islam' v. 'islam' thing. i don't go out of my way to watch any of the 24 hour networks, and i don't listen to the talk radio right wing nutters, so maybe it's there and just in an area i don't look. anyway, hopefully i'm supporting your position med., in saying that isn't how these events should be viewed. it's a good thing there should be a lot of people in US who are not informed by that sort of sensationalist crap.
also, it seems to me the terms "right" and "left" or "conservative" and "liberal" mean something very different in america compared with other countries.
Al Jazeer: "The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial policy."
I was watching Al Jazeera English yesterday and they were broadcasting from Gezi park. Their reporter was showing us Gezi park and making a point about how much graffiti there was and how that contradicted (i'm paraphrasing) the original intention of the uprising which was to protect Gezi park - no analysis about how Gezi park is a symptom, no differentiation between graffiti that can be removed and a mall that can't, no statements about how this in any way symbolized the people's will...so on and so forth. although the al Jazeera reporter did not come out against the protestors, his comments gave a negative nuance.
now, i suspect that Al Jazeera will only go so far in 'criticizing' Erdogan. Al Jazeera has outed itself quite sime time ago as a media tool complicit in the larger struggles taking place in the region. It is playing a very biased role in the Syrian events. notice that that most of their reporting is denominated by the rebels. they, al Jazeera, do not give balanced coverage.
Orhan, i have not come across a people with a more vivid and richer sense of humour than the egyptians. they are masters of irony and satire, seriously. these people are amazing at their extremes, histrionic tragedy and equally outrageous self depreciation.
here's a satirical egyptian clip showing the difference between the egyptian revolution and the lebanese "cedar revolution". the first half shows the egyptians' and the second the lebanese. the humour is of course throroughly egyptian. the text at the end is untranslatable but its tantamount to meaning: darn our luck (but funnier and more self depreciating). they're ready to laugh to the very end. hats off!
This has got to be the most intellectual, albeit non architectural, thread on Archinect.
Just seeing it from the point of view of an observer, this protest is not explicitly played out as "secular" vs "religious" but there seems to be an underlying tone - in fact, I observe that this polarisation often comes from my leftist and religious friends.
If you talk to the muslim elites around the world that have power in industries and finance, you'll hear their proudness of Erdogan for being able to bring Turkey (and by implication, the moderate - how I dislike this word - muslim population) into the world stage in good image as a successful, rich, moderate Islamic-leaning power. It creates a sense of civilised order in the midst non stop news about problems with muslims.
Hoping things get sorted out. Turkey is a great nation with a wealth of history for the world. Hoping it doesn't go sideways! People for the People. (dam someone is most likely following this post...but who give a flying "F" "S". I'm American and I can say what I want without a couple of viral words.
Pelin Derviş
LIVE FROM ISTANBUL: Today, following Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's extremely sectarian, separatist, and fictious speech in Ankara, around 9 PM, the Turkish police began to attack thousands of people who were at the Gezi Park and Taksim square, having dinner. There are kids under 4-5 years old, mothers, and old people among those who were under gas and pressurised water attack. According to reports, police doesn't allow journalists to report or to take pictures from Gezi Park. They are also attacking with pressurised water business such as famous Divan Hotel that opened its doors to protestors running away from brutality. People are saying there are thousands of wounded inside of the hotel. People formed a human chain in front of the hotel to prevent police to attack. Another report says that people cannot leave the hotel because police is arresting whoever leaves. There are also unconfirmed reports that police shut down the metro and boats between Asia and Europe to stop people coming and joining the rest. Another report says that there is a jammer in the area to prevent TV stations' broadcast. There are hundreds of wounded. There are a lot of missing kids, or kids who are separated from their families. Protestors are fighting with police in Sıraselviler, Cihangir, Harbiye, and most likely around Dolmabahçe and Maçka. People call it a total brutality, a real savagery that is going on tonight. What we are seeing an ugly war where only one side have weapons.
PM Erdogan. "Tomorrow we hold an Istanbul rally. Let me make this clear. If Taksim is not emptied, police forces will empty it."
I predict that tomorrow will be worse. Our neighbors are all alert, they're banging pots and pans and shouting "Erdoğan istifa".
now Al Jazeera focuses on the Erdogan supporters' rallying, translating his speech verbatim. absolutely no follow-up coverage pursuant to the gezi ousting. in contrast to the BB coverage, as one example.
it seems to be that Erdogan has good friends in the region :o)
It was confirmed that the chemical they put in TOMAs was acid. Now we're telling people to save their clothes to keep as evidence in case they go to the European Court of Human Rights.
^^^This is the same video I posted on this this thread. I found it over here: http://www.nasrtv.com
It is an Iranian website but it is accurate and unbiased. As a Turkish-American citizen I'm ashamed of having to resort to Iranian and Russian (rt.com) sources to find reliable info....
Occupy Gezi Park
As far as the religion. Yes there is an immense religious pressure. Erdogan himself clearly stated that he wanted to raise a religious generation while he labeled those who are not religious (according to him) as "tinerci" (thinner addicts). This is dividing people. Instead of regular schools hundreds of imam hatip schools were opened: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/religious-schools-sprouting-in-turkey-in-wake-of-contentious-reform-bill.aspx?pageID=238&nID=23525&NewsCatID=341
I have yet another video of Erdogan saying "one can't be both muslim and secular"
Here: http://youtu.be/NG9O3dDsxNY
Some other quotes from him:
" Democracy is like catching a train. When you get to your station, you get off."
" A woman without a headscarf resembles a house without curtains, and a house without curtains is either for sale or for rent."
Sorry this is just not the way to gain the hearts of the secular people.
There is picture of him sitting next to the Taliban leader: http://hakimiyetimilliye.org/2013/04/recep-tayyip-erdogan-nicin-basbakan-yapildi-mehmet-bori/
You just can't expect such a person to uphold democratic and secular values. Turkey is a muslim majority country and always have been. We have 82,693 mosques ( http://turkishpoliticsupdates.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/how-many-schools-are-there-in-turkey-how-many-mosques/) we have more mosques than Iran. These people pretend like there were no true muslims in the country before they came to power because according to them the secular muslims who drink, are not muslim enough. I don't care if he is pious, I don't care what he does in his private life but he has no right to interfere with MY private life. He doesn't have the right to tell me what to drink, how to behave in public. He doesn't have the right to tell women how many children to have. Hitler too told women how many children to have. He can't decide whether a woman can get an abortion or not. He doesn't have the right to call people alcoholics. He doesn't have the right to insult any other religious minorities. You can't call a country secular when it has a Religious Affairs with a 3 billion dollar budget. 10 years ago we didn't have any of these problems.
I'm an agnostic lesbian. I realize that I'm even too liberal for the crowd who opposes AKP. Even without the AKP I'd still change my geographic location because my personality doesn't fit into the Turkish norms. I accept that. I have no intentions of making Turkey my permanent home. In Turkey, religion is also a part of the general culture. It will stay that way for generations. All we want is free speech and the separation of religion and the government just like Ataturk intended. Ataturk didn't harm religion, he only separated it form the government. To me it is wrong to jail anyone for their opinions. I would oppose sending people who insult Ataturk to jail. Yes we do get pissed off when people criticize him but to me they should be criticize anyone they want just like I should have the right to criticize religion but if they try to jail people like Fazil Say and say nothing to people who insult atheists/alevis etc. then you can't call that a democracy.
about the abudance of mosques, that is so true. turkey is to mosques like germany is to apotheken/pharmacies.
about the the wee bit of gay scene in istanbul i got to experience....very beautiful people but so stiff ! by comparison, the gay boys in beirut are writhing snakes. it seemed very contained and uncomfortable. i think there were LGBT elements amongst the demonstrators, no?
Parad0xx86, do you support building bridges with Israel (which is neither a truly democratic nor secular state but a decidedly jewish one supporting an apertheid-like system)? I'm not sure whether you sounded disappointed by the lack of bridge building promised by Erdogan or whether you are merely pointing out his hypocritical opportunism.
Yes there were LGBT groups in the protests. There are LGBT activists but life as an LGBT minority is really hard because everyone is in the closet..Dating is too damn hard in this country.
Now I'm not an expert on Israel. Honestly I don't have extensive knowledge on most Middle East countries that's why stick to discussing the US and Turkey but the more I read about the US foreign policy the more I learned about Israel's foreign policy and it turns me off. Ok maybe that would be an understatement. I don't Israel's influence on the US. I'm very angry at Israel for trying to overthrow Assad. I got into lots of arguments with zionists lately I don't find their stance ethical at all. Their aim is to reach Iran and as much as I despise the Iranian regime I don't want the Iranian people get hurt for the price of oil. I know the history of the middle east, David Fromkin's "Peace to End all Peace" put all pieces together for me, I know those countries became colonies of the Western powers, especially Britain so now the US-Israel-SA interference prevents those countries from getting their s**t together.
I'm not sure how much of the conspiracy theories are true such as the zionists wanting to take control. I read Ron Paul and Noam Chomsky so those things are talked often in our libertarian circles. If that is true then I'd say the zionism is quite evil.
ok, thanks for the clarification on that point and , as usual, for the insight on things turkish.
Tammuz, I appreciate your reasonable post again. I find myself agreeing with you on most of your points. I am not unsympathetic to the demonstrators - don't get me wrong. I am only concerned at the misconstrued (as always) reaction from the western media as if the demonstrators are fighting in a war between "Islam" and "non-Islam" whch is not the case at all. But is what western media salivates over. I agree with you. It's really more of a battle between the right (which has ALWAYS dominated turkish polititcs) and an upstart leftist movement that is tired of the government/military establishment telling the people what they can or can't do as if their opinions don't matter and the only the government knows best.
BTW did someone really just quote that crusty old windbag, Henry Kissenger?
The Western media was hush hush about the AKP government for so long, now they're showing public dissent and the Putinesque handling of the protesters and you're blaming the Western media? We regularly criticize the Economist for that for example but their new cover is amazing:
By the way, you should follow local sources before resorting to the Western media. Having a knee jerk reaction without even researching what is going on from the local resources is the result of an intolerant attitude combined with the lack of critical thinking skills.
i have not seen anything in US media saying this is a 'non-islam' v. 'islam' thing. i don't go out of my way to watch any of the 24 hour networks, and i don't listen to the talk radio right wing nutters, so maybe it's there and just in an area i don't look. anyway, hopefully i'm supporting your position med., in saying that isn't how these events should be viewed. it's a good thing there should be a lot of people in US who are not informed by that sort of sensationalist crap.
also, it seems to me the terms "right" and "left" or "conservative" and "liberal" mean something very different in america compared with other countries.
Why Turks are good at protesting
Widespread use of social media and political humour have given the recent demonstrations a viral effect.
Al Jazeer: "The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial policy."
I was watching Al Jazeera English yesterday and they were broadcasting from Gezi park. Their reporter was showing us Gezi park and making a point about how much graffiti there was and how that contradicted (i'm paraphrasing) the original intention of the uprising which was to protect Gezi park - no analysis about how Gezi park is a symptom, no differentiation between graffiti that can be removed and a mall that can't, no statements about how this in any way symbolized the people's will...so on and so forth. although the al Jazeera reporter did not come out against the protestors, his comments gave a negative nuance.
now, i suspect that Al Jazeera will only go so far in 'criticizing' Erdogan. Al Jazeera has outed itself quite sime time ago as a media tool complicit in the larger struggles taking place in the region. It is playing a very biased role in the Syrian events. notice that that most of their reporting is denominated by the rebels. they, al Jazeera, do not give balanced coverage.
Orhan, i have not come across a people with a more vivid and richer sense of humour than the egyptians. they are masters of irony and satire, seriously. these people are amazing at their extremes, histrionic tragedy and equally outrageous self depreciation.
here's a satirical egyptian clip showing the difference between the egyptian revolution and the lebanese "cedar revolution". the first half shows the egyptians' and the second the lebanese. the humour is of course throroughly egyptian. the text at the end is untranslatable but its tantamount to meaning: darn our luck (but funnier and more self depreciating). they're ready to laugh to the very end. hats off!
This has got to be the most intellectual, albeit non architectural, thread on Archinect.
Just seeing it from the point of view of an observer, this protest is not explicitly played out as "secular" vs "religious" but there seems to be an underlying tone - in fact, I observe that this polarisation often comes from my leftist and religious friends.
If you talk to the muslim elites around the world that have power in industries and finance, you'll hear their proudness of Erdogan for being able to bring Turkey (and by implication, the moderate - how I dislike this word - muslim population) into the world stage in good image as a successful, rich, moderate Islamic-leaning power. It creates a sense of civilised order in the midst non stop news about problems with muslims.
Hoping things get sorted out. Turkey is a great nation with a wealth of history for the world. Hoping it doesn't go sideways! People for the People. (dam someone is most likely following this post...but who give a flying "F" "S". I'm American and I can say what I want without a couple of viral words.
Stephen Colbert's humorous take on the issue:
http://www.odatv.com/vid_video.php?id=8BGD3#.UbrC2VePIGQ
Pelin Derviş
LIVE FROM ISTANBUL: Today, following Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's extremely sectarian, separatist, and fictious speech in Ankara, around 9 PM, the Turkish police began to attack thousands of people who were at the Gezi Park and Taksim square, having dinner. There are kids under 4-5 years old, mothers, and old people among those who were under gas and pressurised water attack. According to reports, police doesn't allow journalists to report or to take pictures from Gezi Park. They are also attacking with pressurised water business such as famous Divan Hotel that opened its doors to protestors running away from brutality. People are saying there are thousands of wounded inside of the hotel. People formed a human chain in front of the hotel to prevent police to attack. Another report says that people cannot leave the hotel because police is arresting whoever leaves. There are also unconfirmed reports that police shut down the metro and boats between Asia and Europe to stop people coming and joining the rest. Another report says that there is a jammer in the area to prevent TV stations' broadcast. There are hundreds of wounded. There are a lot of missing kids, or kids who are separated from their families. Protestors are fighting with police in Sıraselviler, Cihangir, Harbiye, and most likely around Dolmabahçe and Maçka. People call it a total brutality, a real savagery that is going on tonight. What we are seeing an ugly war where only one side have weapons.
PM Erdogan. "Tomorrow we hold an Istanbul rally. Let me make this clear. If Taksim is not emptied, police forces will empty it."
I predict that tomorrow will be worse. Our neighbors are all alert, they're banging pots and pans and shouting "Erdoğan istifa".
now Al Jazeera focuses on the Erdogan supporters' rallying, translating his speech verbatim. absolutely no follow-up coverage pursuant to the gezi ousting. in contrast to the BB coverage, as one example.
it seems to be that Erdogan has good friends in the region :o)
Al Jazeera suuucks! www.globalresearch.ca is the best news source ever!
They are adding mild chemical solutions to the water cannons. And have audacity to say it is a medical treatment!! Yes medical treatment my ***...
It was confirmed that the chemical they put in TOMAs was acid. Now we're telling people to save their clothes to keep as evidence in case they go to the European Court of Human Rights.
stumbled upon this
^^^This is the same video I posted on this this thread. I found it over here:
http://www.nasrtv.com
It is an Iranian website but it is accurate and unbiased. As a Turkish-American citizen I'm ashamed of having to resort to Iranian and Russian (rt.com) sources to find reliable info....
Jenix is pepper spray.
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