In order to answer this question you have to consider a couple of things.....where do you want to work when you graduate? what type of design do you want to practice? and how far are you willing to go?
Wash U. is a good school with a more regional appeal. Its cheaper, more conventional and more predictable so you may not be thrust out your comfort zone as much. I had some friends choose Wash U over Penn and I think they may have regretted it in the end. When you graduate you will have no trouble securing a job in the midwest..hence the regional appeal.

Penn will ride you for three solid years. You will not sleep, constantly be frustrated as much as you're challenged and in the end come out much stronger than you every thought possible. Your designs will be more experimental, thought provoking and yes may be somewhat unfinished...but that depends on you. The real question is...how far are you willing to go for your career because with UPenn there is no half way. A degree from there will get you audience with many of the top firms nationally and internationally, contact with some of the newest cutting edge designers, and saddle you with so much academic debt it will seem like you are paying two morgages when you get out. Is this all worth it???

In my experience going to an Ivy League architecture school is one of the best investments you can make. I just graduated from one last year and its the best money I've ever spent. I've never had so many interviews, so much attention and been exposed to so many new ideas that were not even on the radar in undergrad. I was thrust so far outside of my comfort zone that I became a completely different and much more methodical and thoughtful designer. Save the pragmatism for the workforce....don't worry you'll get plenty of it!!

I know some of the professors there and my best advice....GO TO PENN...and this coming from a top PENN rival.

I also got accepted these 2 schools. I already went to Wash U. looking around w/ one of their current student.

Wash U:
It is a really good school w/out any doubt. They are walking between practicals and conceptual design. It is totally up to you which studios/classes you want to choose. They provide all kind of types of different classes, i.e. striping, structure, technical, conceptual design, digital frab, and so on...blah blah blah. They also spend lots of money on lecture serious. The good thing about Wash U is they sorta create a natural path for you later on in your career. Since the school is quite small and located by HOK, it is quite easy to get a good job.

Upenn:
I am going to open house in April. I will share more with you later on.



I think it depends what you want to achieve later one in your life.


Good luck.

thanks for comment.

Shortypie, Does Upenn offer you some amount of cost of visiting open house? because Washing U's open house, they will pay large amout of money on your trip/

I actually have a private tour w/ one of my friend who is studying in Wash U currently. Open house...is the best part of the school. They wouldn't show any disadvantages. It is actually much better to have someone as an insider to show you around. You would have a better understanding about the school. Plus, the students stay there so long...they whine a lot about their disadvantages. :)

Upenn didn't pay me a penny for the open house. I have to take care of my own flights and hotel.

I strongly encourage you to attend the open house.



Let me know if you have more questions about Wash U. I am in Mid-west. I know Wash U more or less.


Take care.

I think Penn is probably a better school - at least that's what reputation says. Although WashU is very good. Being in Philly will open up doors all over the east coast, whereas you won't make many connections with architects outside of the midwest if you go to StL.

Plus one for Penn. Just graduated in May and I could have worked anywhere I wanted to with the offers that came in. I ended up back in Chicago within a top tier firm that has several UPenn Grads working in it and I don't think one Wash U grad.

upenn.....

both the lecture series and the visiting professors at WashU -- as well as the study abroad options (barcelona, helsinki, buenos aires, tokyo) -- create many opportunities for networking.

the overall trajectory of WashU has been on the upswing and will continue to be so. I haven't seen anything that suggests Penn is doing much other than resting on its laurels and proximity to NYC

I graduated from Wash U a couple years ago, and none of my classmates had too much trouble getting jobs on either coast, although, it is probably far easier to get a job in the Midwest. Several of my classmates are working abroad due to connections they made during their semesters abroad or with professors in St. Louis who have connections abroad.

If you choose Wash U, you'll have be content to live in St. Louis for the duration of the program. That's a minus for a lot of people, but the city becomes the context for your capstone degree project, so you'll have to be accepting of grappling with STL (love it or hate it) and its issues.

(Maybe that's why there are so many semesters abroad.)

I think Wash U is a school where, if you apply yourself and enter the program with a little knowledge about who you are as an architect, you can find the opportunities you are looking for, whatever they may be. There are a lot of average students that pass through there, but there are also a number of really talented people as well. If you pick your path well, work hard and are ready to jump on opportunities as they come along, I think it's a solid choice.

db: "I haven't seen anything that suggests Penn is doing much other than resting on its laurels and proximity to NYC"

Clearly you haven't actually read any of the threads about it here on Archinect. Penn is currently in a state of transition - both the dean and the chair of the architecture program are stepping down.

William Braham will take over as interim chair of the architecture program after Detlef Mertins, and there is a good chance that he will take that position full time. Without a doubt this will mean more of an environmental focus at the school, apart from the studios and courses already taught.

here is my story.

i got in Penn and Wash u last year. i gave up Wash U's $25,000 scholarship, went to Penn (they gave me $x,xxx). I am taking loan. I knew I could live like a king in St. Louis coz my fat scholarship. The scholarship letter stated: they will increase the money anunally based on my grades.

(Regardless the program)

i visited both schools. let me tell you this. St. Louis? are you kidding me? yes, around the campus is kinda nice, greens... but seriously. you need a car. not convenience. You are you going to be so stress in school. the last thing i want is to drive 5 miles to get food. another 2 - 3 miles walk or bike to sleep. I mean, yeah... if you are from the mid west. sure... st. louis is cool. But if you are from the coast: the west or east? sorry...

philly. yes, crime, this and that. is it that bad? no...! at night... there are security dudes at every single blocks around the campus until 3:30 or 4 am (i don;t know how many blocks, but at least 5). You can call the Penn Shuttle anytime, they will give your a ride home. Philly's living is more than St. Louis, i am sure; but I am telling you this.... the quality of life is much better. You wanna get out the studio sometime, go do stuff. bars. clubs. go somewhere chill. You ain't going nowhere in St. Louis. you have to drive miles and miles to a large city. Philly? $20 around trip, take the Chinatown bus to DC or NYC.

I don't have to stay more. go visit!!!

yes, penn is hardcore computer. not as much model making compares to Wash U. Penn has great connections. We have crits from Herzog, Asymptote. etc etc etc... Classmates score intern at big famous firms.

Visit this:
http://www.design.upenn.edu/comp/
http://www.arch.penndesign.net/
http://www.design.upenn.edu/index.php

sorry Wash U. a good school, bad location for the coastal kids. kids that didn't make it to penn. or kids that made to penn but can't afford. or kids that just hate the city, love being a redneck.

Wash U will give you more $$$ than penn, for sure. They will have a super nice open house to impress you. They can use money to get you there. Penn can use their name: ivy league.

*******

but really... regardless of the ranking and the architecture program: if you go to Asia or Europe, you ask: "hi, i went to an ivy league school, UPenn." vs. "Hi, I went to a mid west ivy league school, Wash U in st. louis". I wonder what if people "know" St. Louis. Well, yeah...they might coz religion stuff.

This is a materialistic world. I am not a materialistic person, I don't wanna be one. Never would want to. Unfortunately, this world is all about money, materialistic crap is built-in in our society ever since the white man's invasion 300 years ago.

i am sorry if i sounded drunk here. it's 3:30 am. i haven't really got to sleep well after Spring Break. sorry, Wash U students. I am sure you guys are good, some are better than us. But!... you guys are in the middle of nowhere.

Call me a jackass if you wish. I'll take it. I am just being straightforward here.

kungapa:

envo related? coz of bill is taking over. i think it's a great thing. dude...i am so tired. i will write more later. peace

someone posted this on Penn student work page:

--------

"I am a second year MArch student at Penn and just getting the record straight as far as we students are told. Detlef is stepping down, but on his own accord. He will still be teaching here at Penn but will not be Chair. Bill Braham is taking over as a temp. Gary Hack is also retiring. So there are a lot of changes going to happen but not for a few more years because it always takes time for things to take effect."

Wait was all that an argument for Penn of WashU?

err...or not of

Anyone who went to the Penn open house want to chime in with what they thought?

Also--opinions needed here--would choosing WashU over Penn be a fatal error in getting connected with "high design" firms, working in academia, etc.? Would it COMPLETELY stymie ones ability to achieve such career goals?

I'm pretty much in the same WashU vs. Penn boat but didn't get a chance to go to the open house at Penn. I'm leaning towards WashU 1) because my parents live in the StL and 2) the quality of education also seems to be solid at WashU, and I can deal with living in the Lou for a few years.

One MAJOR fear of mine, however, is that choosing WashU will COMPLETELY prevent me from achieving my career goals (academia/research/working with some cutting edge firms). Because of Penn's more developed tradition (and Ivy status), they seem to be a lot more connected in that respect. WashU: HOK, and that's pretty much it, and I'm not even sure how cutting edge HOK is. Also, looking at where most academics come from, you don't see the name WashU as much as you do Ivies.

Now, WashU looks to be headed in a direction of making itself a global brand, but IF it happens it will probably occur in 10-20 years, assuming it's graduates reach the upper echelons of the industry. And even then, it's not guaranteed. Basically, I'll be gambling on the WashU name.

Is such a gamble worth it? Is living near my parents for the next 3.5 years and saving money on cost of living worth turning down the Ivy reputation and connections. Can I achieve what I want at WashU, given the hard work, or will certain avenues be completely shut off if I don't go to Penn?

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

UPenn and WashU are about a million miles away from each other in terms of pedagogy, are you seriously making this decision based entirely off location and reputation?

Frankly, yes. Quality/type of education, for me, should also be equally considered with the network of the school. If my years spent in the business world has taught me one thing, it's this: your network is the MOST important asset you have. My friends at Wharton, HBS, etc. always come back telling me how their education at those schools pales in comparison to the more "connection-oriented" aspects of those institutions. Granted, I know this is architecture, a little different, but I have a sinking sensation the same general rules do apply.

Also, I'm well aware of the pedagogical differences between Upenn and WashU, but I got other shit to consider that still makes my decision lean towards WashU (and it's eating me up). I'm just hoping I don't make such a huge sacrifice in my career because of it. These factors are:

1) I've lived away from my parents, who are in StL, for the past 10 years. They are getting pretty old and I don't really know how much longer they'll be around.

2) I'm gonna be in debt either way (not much $ from both schools) so, I might as well go where the cost of living is less

3) Related to (2) and (1), my wife and I have decided to have kids while I'm in school (because we will be both in our 30s), and having my parents around is gonna be HUGE especially when I'm in school.

All important things to consider...but again, the fear is that I'll be completely shutting off my career goals by forgoing Penn.

Well, it sounds like you have your decision made regardless.

If reputation/connections are what you're interested in, I don't think Penn or WashU are at the top of that heap, so I don't see much of a reason to choose PennDesign's relatively average reputation over the other benefits WashU and St. Louis have for you.

That's the thing though, citrus--and I respect your opinion here man--but most of these folks on this thread, and other WashU vs. Penn threads, argue AGAINST the idea that Penn has a "relatively average reputation."

I know, there's one thread in Archinect where someone says "Penn is headed in a bad direction", but how many of those are there?

Also, why do most of the impartial commenters push for Penn when this issue comes up? From what I've read on Archinect, ALL of the people at Penn feel a lot more strongly about it than folks at WashU--you can tell in their use of language. Moreover, the overall student body at Penn seems more driven (although, I admit this is observation could be completely misguided).

I ask you this: if people from Herzog and DeMeuron are doing studio crits at Penn, and there ain't no muthafuckin firm even resembling H&DM at WashU, then what am I to think about WashU's connections, especially on a global scale? Even at WashU's "career development" porttion of their open house, which was thoroughly disappointing, they ONLY name I heard was HOK. And that was from two old fogeys and a career counselor who looked like she cared about yay | | much about architecture.

Anyway, you are correct, my decision is pretty much made, but ultimately I'm trying to ease a MAJOR concern of mine. Also, definitely not trying to bad mouth WashU here. I'm really just trying to see what I will be sacrificing if I turn down Penn. Call me a status climber, but if I really was bent on pure numerical status (like DI rank), I wouldn't have this dilemma.

PennDesign's "relatively average" reputation?...relative to what? I'd be interested in knowing what experiences you have had that led you to that decision. I'm also interested in Penn, and aside from obvious Ivy connections...most people in the country (potential clients), regardless of profession, are well aware of the outstanding academic record at Penn. In terms of general reputation of the school, Penn is a top ten program. Not to mention the high profile faculty and immediate job opportunities on the east coast.

As far as reputation goes Wash U is excellent as well. However, I'm not really aware of any greater St. Louis Architects for whom i would personally like to work...at least while i am relatively young.

the mid west? ewwwww...

i mean the fatty fast food...

there are really two paths to getting into academia...

path 1: go to Penn... work for a "high design firm" for a few years... teach as an adjunct somewhere... eventually get a tenure track job... if you want to teach sooner than later then this is the path to take...

path 2: go to WashU... work in a decent firm for 10-15 years and build some decent stuff... get some adjunct teaching experience... maybe get a tenure track position eventually...

i'm saying this with some personal experience... a degree from an ivy does make a difference if you want to go into academia... sambar, i was in a similar position 7 years ago when i was deciding between Penn and Georgia Tech for my M.Arch... i chose Tech for a variety of reasons including money, and being closer to my fiancee... my thinking back then was "GT is a good school, i'll still have a good portfolio, and i can spend a few years getting real world experience, and then i'll be able to get a teaching job"... for the past two years i've applied for some teaching positions without so much as an interview... last year the school in my town (where i'm a frequent guest juror) was hiring and i applied... no interview and they hired a person from harvard even though i have a better portfolio, professional experience, competition wins, design awards and published research...

looking back on it, i would have chosen to go to Penn... and now i actually am... i start the phd program this fall...

Sambar:

you should not make your graduate school decision by reading the Archinect forum. I am sure many people are not bullshitting here. Still, you really should go visit and compare these two schools, check out the students' work. Talk to the students.

family? You can not be a full time boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife while in architecture school. You may be one during spring break, summer break and winter break... (sure... on the weekends, sometime) Well, you know what's good to have a partner, he or she will be able to bring you lunch/dinner, do your laundry. That's always a plus.

anyway... you can ask anyone around the world this question: Penn has a bigger name or Wash U? I mean i am not saying that you should go to Penn. One shot in life... a very tough decision. I feel you. Good luck.

I really do not think the diff between Penn and WashU is as vast as some here are suggesting. As big names go, Harvard-Princeton-Yale are ALL still WAY (!!!) bigger names than Penn (and WashU). The differences between them are mostly personal preferences. That said, pay no attention to these comments and take dbd's advice and VISIT the schools. The choice is yours alone.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I definitely believe visiting each school is sound advice--still, I'm probably sticking with WashU for the reasons mentioned above. (Have the parental support in StL for a wife + kid in my absence).

But, out of sheer curiosity, for the people with the same dilemma (iconic, etc.) who are still reading this thread: which one are you choosing and why?

There are some interesting anxieties on display in this thread. Both programs are excellent. Penn definitely has some great stuff by the looks of it and you will meet some very ggod architects there. WashU is also great and has from what I've heard a really close, sort of familial student body.If you want to work in NY, Penn will probably have more connections since I believe it is larger than WashU, has Professors who work in NY, and its an East Coast school. Also, they are both private and cost about the same, unless of course one offers a scholarship over the other. Also, while Penn is an Ivy, it isn; Harvard and yes there are other great school outside the Ivies. For example, Williams College is a better school on paper than Penn for undergrads, and its not an Ivy. There is also MIT, which is not an ivy. From what I've seen, Sciarc is an excellent and impressive school as any for architects, yet of course won't register at all outside of architecture & design feids. On the West Coast, we don' give a damn about this stuff. This thread sounds like a bunch of neurotic lawyers arguing over whether a 3.7 Gpa is somehow more meaningful than a 3.6. In the end you make your own path,

best of luck

Is it me our is everyone getting accepted to UPenn these days?

Sambar:

mail your check to Penn. Get over it.

You will like this place. Only 3 years out of your life. Time to make a big change. Why not get some experience at an Ivy League school.

I agree regarding connections. Those big firms in NYC. No questions about it. Fo So, bro.

see you in Fall 08. you got my email. drop me a line.

DDDLLL, can i have that information too? is that about openhouse upenn? I would like to know more about penn too.

you got in, but you didn't go to the open house? mmm...

well. i dont know what to tell you. perhaps you can tell us what are your options. then we can help.

he emailed me last year, asked me about penn stuff. so we are email bros.

I was in a similar situation. I applied to schools last year and was all but set on going to Penn. I was really excited to get to philly and start a new path. Instead I decided to take a year off and work. I reapplied this year to schools and have decided to go to wash u. in price, i got alot of money from wash u and eventually got some from penn. I have friends in both programs and friends who have graduated from both programs. I have friends from wash u who now work for Jean Nouvel, Rem, REX, HOK, firms in China, SOM, and tons of other places. All i have heard from Penn is that they work for top firms, but I only know people who work in little botique firms. From what I have heard, wash u offers everything Penn offers, plus more. They have a new dean who is set on being the most sustainable program. They have hired two new faculty each year who are young and devoted to technology design. They have also just hired Robert McArther, who is a very well known architectural historian and critique who has connections to everyone in the world. From what I have heard, they keep updating their facilities and infrastructure with plans to build a new building that is so sustainable they will sell energy back to the surrounding buildings. Its connection with HOK is getting closer and closer and they are the most sustainable focused design firm in the world. they wrote the book on it 10 years ago.

Saint Louis is a city which is getting better and better every year. A new metrolink has connected wash u to almost everything fun in the city and students get a free pass. The living is cheap, the loop is fun and the food (restraunts) is better than most cities. (Except their taste in pizza sucks, but there are great new york pizzarias) Its easy to get around the country because of its location which means any big architect that is making the lecture tour stops there. In fact the dean and the asst. dean graduated from Yale with other big names. Miya Linn visits wash u at least once a year, and sometimes Ghery, Libeskind, Rem, and Zaha Hadid. The professors come from all over the top name schools and firms and its easy to get hooked up with a job anywhere in the world even for the summer.

It wouldnt suprise me if wash u gets ranked in the top 3 this upcoming years.

kramer2nd. you still don't understand this: ranking doesn't matter. the world does not know about Saint Louis, but those GOD believers. Saint Louis is not the east coast or the west. Sorry i am being materialist. This is a materialist world. Good luck at WashU. WashU can never compare with Ivy League school. I am sorry...

dbd: you still don't understand that Ivy does not always mean best. Education is personal and has little to do with your materialist (status-driven) view of the world.

finding a job on the other hand has little to do with your personal perspective on graduate education...

true...though as kramer points out, WashU has hardly been proving an obstacle to doing so

if you go oversea my friend. try that one. Ivy or STL? i am not talking about the best education here. i believe some of community colleges have better education than many big universities. It's the brand name. do you get it? this is a materialist world. people like brand name stuff. If you have the money, would you drive a Honda or an Audi? Please don't tell me it's the rice-rocket?

For those of you scouring the Archinect threads with the same dilemma as us:

I'm spending my first semester at WashU. Despite my initial reservations (and tumult over turning down an offer from Penn), I have to say that I have no regrets about my decision now that school has started.

My expectations weren't high initially, but now that I'm in the thick of it, I can definitely tell you that there are GREAT things happening here at WashU. Don't believe this speculative nonsense that people (who don't know anything about the school) say about WashU being a no-name, not innovative and whatnot. That's just east coast-centricism, and it's all bullshit.

Innovation happens the first day you get here in materials study. Pushing the limits of design is at the heart of what we are doing thus far, and NONE of the core-studio faculty operates in a conservative "low-design" realm. My studio professor repeatedly emphasizes to us that "WashU's aim is to produce architects that advance the design"--produce architects of the future--and it is happening. Believe me.

The faculty, by the way, are all outstandingly committed teachers. Maybe at Ivies you get instructors with agendas looking to advance their careers (not to knock the Ivies). I can tell you, however, here at WashU every professor has very little trace of agenda, or at least they do a great job of hiding it. Not to mention, they all do great work and bring great work out of their students. Research them, you'll see what I mean.

The student body, by-and-large, are all very committed as well. The caliber of people here increases with every year, and the work-ethic of most people is extraordinarily high.

While we don't have access to a robotic arm like the GSD, the facilities are definitely technological enough too.

Really, the main thing WashU has going against it is the fact that it's in St. Louis. I definitely have have love for the STL, but it's in no way a short train ride to NYC, and therefore, it's less accessible to people involved in "high design]" since those folks are all around NYC. Since a plane ride to the midwest is going to be far more costly than a day trip to [insert NE city here], guest crits from high design firms don't come as often as they should.

Anyway, that's my sales pitch. But, keep in mind, I regretted my decision about declining Penn all the way until the first day I started class at WashU. The quality of education here is amazing, bottom line.

Penn is an Ivy, obviously. That can't be discounted. For those of us that chose WashU over Penn, however, we are admittedly making a leap of faith that the WashU brand will be "known" in the near future. (Much like the WashU brand for its med school). Given the quality of students and faculty here who are committed to design, and to representing WashU, I have no doubts that it will.

sambar,

i went to wash u for undergrad, who's teaching your studio?

what a great testimony Sambar, I'm glad you're liking it. The Birth of the Cool exhibit at the Kemper also shows how WashU is becoming a major player in such things. Go see it if you haven't already.

One of my former students (Alen Basic) is a year ahead of you in Robert McCarter's studio and doing very well. Loving it and so committed he wouldn't even take time off (20 minutes!!!) to go to the opening with me last Friday!

Critics will get better and more well-known as it gets closer to the end of the semester and end of your degree. They do bring folks in and move them around for all studios.

Good luck and glad you feel you made the right decision.

sambar - good to hear that you are enjoying Wash U. Have worked with a few grads from there. Quality people from that program.

Worked along side Penn grads too. Both great programs so your choice really is semantics.

Don't worry about a Wash U degree having less name recognition. Honestly, in the professional world your degree doesn't make much of a difference. Seen Penn grads stuck detailing toilet partitions just as much as the state school grad.

I went to the open house at Penn - I was slightly disappointed. I was not disappointed at the school, but at the open house - it really seemed like at Penn you are just "one more" person, and they don't care much about you. I'm trying to make a similar decision, between Penn and Rice. The few things I could tell from the Penn open house that are good:

1-Penn architecture is a big school. There are a lot of options. If you like the digital trend that seems to be going on, you can do that. But you don't have to. There is plenty of model building too.

2-This is my current take on it. Only 50% is what you learn from teachers. The other 50% you learn from other students. Washington University is a smaller school - less students - less opportunities for learning.

3-With jobs I feel its similar - some connections you make through faculty - but also many connections you make through friends. I went to a small college in the middle of nowhere (albeit very highly ranked) and had many less connections when I graduated than people who went to large ivies or large state schools who could position themselves for a job immediately.

4-Yes, Penn is more expensive. Frankly, I don't know if it's worth it. I'm grappling with the same issue myself. I'm positive that five down the line, the investment is NOT worth it (entry level jobs are entry level regardless what school you went to). However, I have also been told that in the long run, it is a wise investment. Can't say for sure because I haven't done any economic analysis on the issue. However, seeing as this post is extremely old (yeah, i just noticed now), I'm curious about what decision you made, and what your hindsight is.