I'm glad to see everyone thinks this is as big of a crock as I do.....

I guess another thing that irritates me with this situation is that the bunch of girls that got kicked out seemed/were portrayed as the very types of young women who could defy the sorority stereotype. Their professors and advisers thought of them as people who were interested in academic and social issues, and could therefore have been good citizens, which could have tangibly made DZ into more than just another binge-drinking date rape factory. But then in swoop a couple of hags from Oxford, Ohio (home of Miami U of Ohio, and Greek capital of the Buckeye State) and it's back to business as usual. I bet they drove Expeditions too. If I knew where they lived, I would solicit someone to have a toga party on their front lawn.

My girls made CNN video:

former DZ members speak out

that makes sense, rationalist.

i don't know that much about depauw, but i do know it's one of those schools where the greek system is everything socially, and perhaps this is why the young women decided to join a sorority: because they had to.

i would much, much rather date the edgy girls than the girls with the expeditions, as would most of us architects...but there isn't an architecture school at depauw.

and i would certainly rather date ashley judd than the girls with the expeditions.

DePauw cut ties with the Delta Zetas.

NY Times article here.


Ha ha....

:oP

guess that i'm kind of late to this discussion, but i loved my experience in the greek system and feel that most people could benefit from it if they were actually willing to leave some of their prejudices behind and participate with an open mind.

i'd also be careful about making over-generalized statements about the greek system too...sure there are some chapters with questionable practices at times. but then again, it's not like all architect firms are perfect either. there's ample evidence of socially questionable behavior amongst our noble profession...really would architects ever exploit their younger colleagues? what are long hours at the office (and in some places without pay) or sleepless nights in the studio if not a form of hazing? and we all know that no architect would hire someone based on looks or appearance alone, especially ones that implied a well-heeled upbringing, right?

puddles, you were Greek? Does that have anything to do with how you don't like to wear pants?

wait, puddles, were you in ATO by any chance?

not an ATO. any other guesses?

What intelligent woman or man would want to be in a sorority or fraternity anyway?

A lot of the same ones that become architects.

So you are saying most architects are x-frat boys and sorority girls?...I would like to see your data.

Not most, but if you read the entire thread you might note that at least half the posters here were Greek affiliated.

i went to penn state..i think the largest greek system in the
country...with that i never felt any urge to join. we had a couple
people in frats in architecture and it seemed to take up a lot of
their time. by fifth year i think there was one guy still in a frat.
seems to me that it's not compatible time wise for most.

i would think DZ should be able to do what they did if it was
truly a 'business' decision. if these people were treating it like a
dorm room and not as an obligation then maybe they deserved
to get tossed. is it possible that the members that were thrown
out happened to be of a physical/personality type but also had
other similar characteristics: laziness, exclusivity, bad attitudes etc.
for which they were thrown out? maybe it's a stretch, but is it easy
to jump on looks as being the only factor here?


really...i'm just amused by the fact that the president of depauw
is Dr. Robert G. Bottoms...nothing you can do to dress up that
last name...i know it's immature.

so, half the people posting on a thread about greeks means all others who didn't comment are obviously along the same rates?

I believe your assumptions are flawed...but if you want to believe half of architects were greeks, go right ahead. I would be very surprised if more than 2% of architects were greeks...I would not call that a lot.

Dr. Bob Bottoms...yep, you can't make that sh*t up.

Former TEP member right here. I probably still would be if my colony didn't get fucked over by the asshat who started it. I didn't really view it as a buy-a-buddy system. Because my school has practically no campus and no greek system and pretty much everybody joining was my friend to start with. I thought it would be fun to join an organization and try a build a more college-like athmosphere at my uni.

I never asserted that half the people on archinect were greek, only this thread. What was your point again?

that most intelligent people do not need to pay money to be a part of a 'group' or dogmatic fraternal or social order..the greek system, to me, is highly outdated and unnecessary in this day and age. that is my point.

The world is a complex place, and the people and organizations in it don't often resemble the stereotypes that people like to impose upon them. Every fraternity and sorority is different, and needs to be judged on its own merits. I guess I don't understand the point of your broad generalizations, unless it is your assertion that they are universally correct.

actually in a field like architecture these college networks can be quite fruitful.

outdated? i don't know...but i'd rather think that one of the characteristics of our "modern age" is the wide open horizon of experience that it provides. nothing is outdated and there's room for everything...even the limitations of judgemental thinking

for some reason i can't help thinking of an episode of "WKRP in Cincinnati" that i saw like 25 years ago, when mr carlson was talking about this group of outcasts he was part of in college, called "the omegas"...they were the rejects from all of the other fraternities

and mr carlson ran his own radio station

see, you don't need to be greek to get ahead

If one is going to set up a social grouping, what *are* the acceptable commonalities? How does one move from a random collection of humans to a cohesive social unit without exercising some form of discrimination?

i am glad you enjoyed your greek experience...you don't need to defend it just because I disagree with you about the greek system.

how about complete bigotry, should we regress? sounds like ya'll are up for it.

college network of friendships is not the same thing at all vado, you know that.

I am an ex-sorority girl... in undergrad that is. I was ucky enough to be in the anit-sorority sorority. The year I pledged 5 or 6 out of 20 were all architecture majors and the year after us we always tried really hard to get all the architecture girls... needless to say we were always numero uno in GPA.... and we always had the dances that were the most fun.... It was so cool every dance, party ect we would take an "architecture only" photo and with all of our friends and dates and members we would have about 30 people in the photo...

But I did go to a very small private school with only 4 sororities total... at my school if you wanted to have fun you were a greek. If I would have gone to a state school I never would have gone greek...

about kicking the girls out... well it is obvious that they were booted because of looks, but would you really want to be in that sorority anyway??? I do know a DZ though and she is cool as hell. I think everything varies greatly from school to school

Speaking as someone from the UK, is the American High School Movie cliche of 'cool blondes', 'jocks', 'nerds', 'slackers' etc. sitting at different lunch tables true? And does this influence later behaviour?

And if someone is chucked out of a sorority/frat house because they're pig-ugly, how does one prove that one is pig-ugly and thus define that as the reason for one's expulsion?

i know that several big jobs at my firm came from direct frat connections.

to rush or not rush? whatever. i'm just always a bit surprised by the amount of animosity directed at fraternities & sororities by outsiders.

not surprised. but, it doesn't change my opinion that I believe that, yes, in general, the mainstay greek system is outdated and exclusive as opposed to inclusive.

the old boys network? Thats one of the reasons i joined, networking, and networking/politiking NEVER goes out of date.

To solidred's post all i can say is simply "birds of a feather flock together". And that there are certain groupings of people in american high schools and colleges that can actually fit the cliche's listed, such as jocks, but most of these things are highly over-exaggerated in those movies for comedic effects and yes they typically do all sit together. But i would assume you'd find similar behavior in the UK, or anywhere. And the segregating behavior human beings naturally do initially carries with them through life. Discrimination, is unfortunately, apart of us genetically as it occurs naturally.

cliques happen everywhere -- as apurimac said -- and it's just a fact of life. it is the permeability among cliques, the mobility between them, and their permissivity that is at question here.

the modern american university is a place where you can pretty much invent (or re-invent) yourself if you want to do so. a lot of us did. i sure did.

what a lot of us have been displaying is our antipathy towards non-meritocratic ingroups. architecture is nothing but one big ingroup. but: while it helps to be rich and good-looking in architecture, a lack thereof is not a barrier to entry. what you have to have -- is merit.

groups where money and looks (and heritage, in the form of legacy admissions) define those who are admitted and those who aren't are pretty suspect these days, and most of us architects refused at the outset to participate in them. i say most of us, i rushed a frat myself but dropped out when i found out i could go to their parties and get drunk without paying dues.

it worked until i got fancy glasses.

Yeah.. wonderK i was a frat boy for the first 2 years of school. maybe 3.. i cant remember.

whats funny, is that there are just as many cliques in architecture are there are frats.

Sad when you look at them from the outside.. but it makes you feel important when you are part of one.. or many.

It had to be done.....

fraternity blues

by townes van zandt

I decided to improve my social station
I joined a fraternity organisation
Tucked in my shirt
Signed on the line
Right away they said about to improve my mind
The car I drove
The books I read
The food I ate
The booze I drank
The girls I took out
My breath

Said kid, we dont much like the way you walk
And you gonna have to change the way you talk
They said your dress is kind of sludge
And your attitude is mighty grudge
Said you got to learn to bubble
You got to bubble with enthusiasm I started bubble
Most important thing you cant forget
Is learning the entire greek alphabet
I never did really understand
That thats gonna make me anymore a man
But I learned it
I can whip through that son-of-a-beta backwards in five seconds
Then they hit me with some pretty bad news
Concerning the payment of monthly dues
I never did know where that money went
I never was sure it was well spent
But I paid it
Im no troublecauser and besides I figured thats life
If you want good friends it gonna cost you

Well, finally got to be party time
I got a great big old jug of wine
I went back to the house in about an hour
[when the boys were] drinking whiskey sours
Brandy alexanders
Frozen [daquires]
Reciting the greek alphabet to one another

I could see I was gonna have to do my very best
To get myself out of that fraternity mess
I stood right there outside the door
And I chugged that wine like never before
Walked inside and bubbled
All over a couple of their dates

So now everythings back to normal again
But there is still lots of room for improvement my friend
cause that fraternity stuff is too much for me
Next time Im gonna join a sorority
Really get me something to bubble about

cliques and groups like the AIA?

no shit...just speaking from experience, i saw alot more ethnic & cultural diversity in my greek experience than i've found in architecture (especially the professional culture). granted, architecture seemed pretty wide-open when i first started but over time it becomes apparent that this perspective defined by professionals can be pretty limited once you know the ropes and have been around long enough to watch some of the trends play out.