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the alpha architect?

x-jla

I have been thinking about this alot lately, and would like to hear some other opinions. 

Does the contemporary path toward becoming an architect favor the extroverted alpha personality type, and if so, why since the introverted personality type is typically better suited for design according to psychologists (see briggs-myers)?  Is this the best system for producing the best architects?  Seems that shmoozers and networkers are getting ahead even if their design abilities are not as good as the essentric, weird, quiet, back office dude.  Why are we submitting to this typical business world senario, I thought we were different?  Is this hurting the profession?  It is known that many kids are left behind in school because of similar biases in the educational system.  Most of the best and brightest have a hard time following ridgid paths, look at Einstein, Steve Jobs, Hawkings, etc...In Architecture there seems to be only one path to the top, and the institutions in place want to keep it that way School-IDP-Test-years of climbing the corporate ladder-blahblahblah.  Fortunatly no one held Einstein back from being a physicist because he lacked some state regulated title.  I feel that we are keeping alot of bright folks out while the business minded types who can put up with the ridgid system disproportionatly get ahead.  Of course this is not always the case, but it usually is.  Not saying a person who is outgoing and extroverted cannot be great at design, but being introverted is a personality that is usually much more suited for design and problem solving and also much less likely to follow the rules and common paths set up.  I guess this is all fine in the world of banking, law, and business, but our profession is supposed to be about creativity and innovation before all else, so are we as a whole keeping it down because we are so damn ridgid.  I have seen alot of really bright people give up because they just cannot seem to deal with this structure that is in place.  I have also seen alot of not so bright people get ahead just because they are good at making friends.  Before you all post images of FLW, I am not saying this is always true.  Yes we have extremely extroverted artists like Warhol, but we also have Dali who could barley answer a phone.  However, art is not regulated, and there are many ways to get ahead as long as you make good art, for instance pollack got drunk and painted while his girlfriend did all the networking stuff.  In architecture most often the Dali type would be stuck in a back office somewhere doing door schedules for 10 years.  Not sure if there is a solution.  Just wanted to see if anyone else thought about this.

 
Mar 19, 12 3:54 am
x-jla

damn, if Einstein had to jump through a similar set of hoops before he was given the chance to show what he could do we wouldn't have a theory of relativity.  The dude couldn't even finish school.

Mar 19, 12 3:59 am  · 
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zonker

Clearly the extroverts - Introverts can expect a truncated and limited career

Mar 19, 12 9:13 am  · 
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Jlarch confirmed for beta.

TL;DR.

Mar 19, 12 11:18 am  · 
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Especially in todays competitive atmosphere, you have to go out and get the job, and convince the future client over the 40 other firms competing for the same job. Rare is the Architect who can sit and wait for the work to come to them, unless you are a trust fund baby, or married into wealth.

Mar 19, 12 11:33 am  · 
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Rare is the Architect who can sit and wait for the work to come to them, unless you are a trust fund baby, or married into wealth.

You do realize that most of industry's clientele are the top 3% of society. Just consider that when you lampoon the wealthy with unfair characterizations about their ability, drive or self-determination.

Mar 19, 12 11:37 am  · 
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i r giv up

In Architecture there seems to be only one path to the top, and the institutions in place want to keep it that way School-IDP-Test-years of climbing the corporate ladder-blahblahblah.

 

well, someone's trapped in a box.

Mar 19, 12 11:59 am  · 
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dsc_arch

Ever notice that most firms are partnerships. An Intrados AND an Extrados.

See Sullivan and Root.

Mar 19, 12 12:14 pm  · 
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zonker

Both in the school I went to, and the firms I worked at, the successful were extroverts - in 2008, the introverts(myself included) got the folder -

Mar 19, 12 12:29 pm  · 
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Ever notice that most firms are partnerships. An Intrados AND an Extrados.

See Sullivan and Root.

Does that make diller scofidio + renfro the architectural equivalent of a BDSM triad?

Mar 19, 12 12:32 pm  · 
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zonker

one of my professors told me - "if you can't sell yourself, then how do you expect to sell your ideas?" One of my classmates took a course from Tony Robbins and now is very successful with her own office.

Mar 19, 12 12:40 pm  · 
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x-jla

fluxbound, just saying the whole licensure process is too ridgid.  I get it that once someone has a licence they can make their own path, but to get to that point we have to go through a pretty ridgid system, and many get trapped in it.  The system does not seem to filter out lousy designers, but rather it filters out lousy "socialisers."  I am simply asking the question -  is this healthy for the profession? 

Mar 19, 12 12:41 pm  · 
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x-jla

Both in the school I went to, and the firms I worked at, the successful were extroverts - in 2008, the introverts(myself included) got the folder

I know that it is the way it is, but is it the way that it should be?  Thats all I'm asking

Mar 19, 12 12:44 pm  · 
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DAS99

IF you find a truly matched pair the introvert/extrovert partnership can be successful. Such pairs can take the world by storm. Both need to have design talent for it to work. And they need to have respect for each other and the varied talents they bring to the partnership. 

However often these partnerships rarely run the marathon and often the extrovert walks away with the kudos and the firms client list. I have seen that happen twice. Especially when the extrovert is someone with little moral or ethical concerns.  

However being an extrovert may win you clients, it may be a skill needed to win commissions but if you (or someone who works for you) doesn't have the talent to create the design it won't mean much more than you build a bunch of mediocre buildings. 

Also you will never be an FLW, Aalto, Mies, Etc.  caliber Architect if you do not have the utmost respect for yourself and your ideas. Extrovert or not you have to have the self confidence and the determination to see your vision thru to completion sometimes despite the client. (doesn't mean you have to be obnoxious about it though) 

 

Mar 19, 12 12:52 pm  · 
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dsc_arch

I went and re-read your hypothesis.

The psych tests that establish temperament are helpful in self-managing yourself. However, Architecture is a social profession. It needs collaboration, presentation and communication skills in addition to technical and design skills. It is one of the reasons why I love it as much as I do.  

I do not understand the "rigid path to the top" statement. Even at Google, the best app / technology doesn't always win. It is the one that is the "best fit for right now" that wins in the end.

Mar 19, 12 12:57 pm  · 
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zonker

 

"I know that it is the way it is, but is it the way that it should be?  Thats all I'm asking"

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/18/opinion/cain-introverts-power/index.html?hpt=hp_bn6

Mar 19, 12 12:57 pm  · 
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curtkram

It seems to me the license path requires 1) getting and maintaining a job, then 2) getting someone to sign a form, and finally 3) taking  a bunch of tests.  From my experience, I would think the introvert is likely more suited to the test taking as well as the associated paperwork.  Anyone should be able to get a supervisor or someone to sign said forms unless your introversion is crippling.  The extrovert has the advantage in keeping the job.

Sometime many of us, especially students or sometimes professors, forget that Architecture is a job.  Our profession does not exist to make our own dreams or designs or whatever come true.  We get hired by clients to do whatever it is that the client hires us to do.  There is nothing wrong with that.  The extrovert has the advantage there because clients will typically hire people who they like and get along with because of that person's personality.  That will typically be the extrovert.  The introvert, who may be brooding over how they think their opinion is better than that of the client's, typically does not have the sort of likability to maintain a good relationship with the client.

In summary, I don't think the extrovert has a systemic advantage in the licensure process.

disclaimer: I'm an introvert.

Mar 19, 12 1:02 pm  · 
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dsc_arch

@ DAS99.

Excellent post!

We have INFJ and ENFJ (Kesley temperament Sorter) as partners in our office. Since I am wedded to the other, there is a lot of mutual respect and less likelihood to walk away. 

Mar 19, 12 1:02 pm  · 
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x-jla

zenakis thanks for the link!

dsc-arch, you are right about the collaboration thing, I just feel that the profession favors the ones who talk the loudest more often.  Also feel that many of those in charge of hiring are typically extroverted and just do not like, or do not get us introverts.  As for the ridgid path statement, what I meant was having to conform to the world of suits and ties.  Having to navigate through a world of loud mouths with cut throat personalities.  I always imagined the profession being more saturated with social weirdos like myself haha.   

Mar 19, 12 1:15 pm  · 
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i r giv up

fluxbound, just saying the whole licensure process is too ridgid.  I get it that once someone has a licence they can make their own path, but to get to that point we have to go through a pretty ridgid system, and many get trapped in it.  The system does not seem to filter out lousy designers, but rather it filters out lousy "socialisers."  I am simply asking the question -  is this healthy for the profession?

I don't know in what world you're living. The internship process and the testing for licensing is stacked against true a-types. Having to work under someone for three years without being able to call yourself "Architect" is far more wounding to an extrovert, who has to put up with the odd "design my house!" "hrmm.. i'm not licensed yet" "oh... ok" conversation every now than then.

 

Basically, you're saying it filters out non-socializers. I'm saying you're being far too simple. It filters non-achiever types. Welcome to the real world. Being extroverted enough to sell yourself, however hard it may be, is part of the game (And I don't use the word "game" lightly).

Mar 19, 12 1:15 pm  · 
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jpugarte1

I totally agree with fluxbound. I don't know anything about US licensure process, but it is pretty obvious that having design skills or w/e related to architecture itself is not enough to succeed, and it has never been other way. Maybe one could say that nowadays, being 'extroverted' (I prefer confident) is a little overrated... I don't know if I think that way, but I guess it could be true.

However, you don't have to be a mr.personality to succeed in architecure. When it comes to social skills, I think it is enough with being someone who has the ability to work in team-work, deal with clients, give and receive orders, etc. Basically, it is about being an average person. Now, if you - not you in particular - are some kind of freak with zero social skills - I mean the kind of guy who barely talks to people, who gets abused everytime - you are doomed to draw in autocad for the rest of your days.

Mar 19, 12 1:36 pm  · 
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x-jla

"achiever" is a simple statement.  What it means to each person varies greatly.  I would say that completing a program is probably more important to an extrovert.  many infp and intp personalities have a hard time finishing things.  They find a sense of success or achievement in the process not the outcome.  Your probably right about the title thing.  I would imagine it being harder for an extrovert to deal with this issue of title.   

Mar 19, 12 1:36 pm  · 
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toasteroven

I just feel that the profession favors the ones who talk the loudest more often. 

 

you just have to learn how to use your jedi mind tricks.  the profession favors people with confidence and ambition - not the screeching extrovert monkeys. 

Mar 19, 12 1:43 pm  · 
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How did you get "lampooning the wealthy" out out my comment, JJR? My point was.....oh...nevermind.

Mar 19, 12 1:49 pm  · 
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i r giv up

I would say that completing a program is probably more important to an extrovert. 

jlarch: achiever is not a simple term. a thousand nerds and videogamers would take issue with the statement i just quoted. i'd dare say that most of the people i went to college (not so much grad school) with were introverted achievers. these people are pretty deadly if you can convince them that socializing is a game/part of winning.

don't try to project your own lack of self-motivation onto the profession. step outside, take part in a thousand gaffes and you'll start to get the hang of it.

Mar 19, 12 2:04 pm  · 
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zonker

I just feel that the profession favors the ones who talk the loudest more often.

 

you just have to learn how to use your jedi mind tricks.  the profession favors people with confidence and ambition - not the screeching extrovert monkeys. 

 

A friend of mine would not refer me for a job because I was too introverted - " Why can't you just go back to your video game job" I might have to

Mar 19, 12 2:11 pm  · 
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i r giv up

get better friends.

Mar 19, 12 2:13 pm  · 
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zonker

Anyone know anything about toastmasters? one of my former PAs suggested I do it - 

 

Mar 19, 12 2:23 pm  · 
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x-jla

don't try to project your own lack of self-motivation onto the profession

I have alot of self motivation, graduated top of my class and all with an M-arch participated in numerous competitions, started my own business, traveled the world on my own dime,  studied many subjects for fun etc.  Not trying to toot my own horn, but how do you get "lack of self-motivation" from my post?  It is a simple question that I am asking not so much a complaint.  I would say the same question has been asked over and over with regard to the educational system.  Is this the best way to produce the best people?  I agree with alot of what you are saying, but your too quick to judge.  Questioning the nature of the system does not in anyway imply a lack of self-motivation.  Questions are about learning and hearing other opinions, and I appreciate all of these opinions.      

Mar 19, 12 2:27 pm  · 
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x-jla

Yeah zenakis.  Someone suggested it to me too.  Basically it is a monthly meeting where you practice public speaking.  There is one in most cities.  Have not gone yet, but I may check it out.

Mar 19, 12 2:32 pm  · 
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zonker

these people are pretty deadly if you can convince them that socializing is a game/part of winning.

 

Look at Mark Zuckerberg - he was an outcast - now he is in the top 1% of the top 1%

Mar 19, 12 2:33 pm  · 
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Rusty!

Ah, the introvert v. extrovert case. Or better known as autism v. schizophrenia.

In one corner, weighing in at 120lbs, the autistic architect. Speaks in sub sonic volume range (whale whisperer). Doesn't 'get' humor. Actually knows the building code. Good with repetition and mandane tasks (stair sections and washrooms).  Deep down hates your guts. Anything resembling feelings will only be expressed in passive agressive ways.

In the other corner, weighing in at 600lbs, the schizo-teckt. COMMUNICATION IS KEY TO EVERYTHING!!1!! Over-promises and under-delivers all the time. TIME FOR A TEAM BUILDING EXERCISE!!!1!!1 Looooooves long, pointless meetings. Not really good at producing actual work. Will stab you in the back and collect your life insurance.

Supreme court ruled on this one. I forget who won, but I think sociopathy was used as a tiebreaker. 

Mar 19, 12 2:49 pm  · 
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x-jla

 

Yes your right, but Zuckerburg did not have to conform to an institutionalized profession prior to inventing facebook.  He was an unconventional person and he took an unconventional route.  His path to inventing facebook and turning it into a business was totally unconventional.  If he had to get a masters, work for 3 years, and take a bunch of exams before he was allowed to start his own business, would we have facebook?  Probably not.  Why is it  that a person cannot become an architects through alternative means.  Regulation! So are we really getting the most diverse competition?  Why can't a person who worked in construction, studied art, taught themself architecture team up with a bright business person and start a firm.     Maybe it's more about a lack of mobility than personality type.

Mar 19, 12 3:03 pm  · 
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x-jla

And this once again get back to the title debate....always seems to end up here....Aggghhhhh

Mar 19, 12 3:09 pm  · 
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toasteroven

Why can't a person who worked in construction, studied art, taught themself architecture team up with a bright business person and start a firm.     

 

nothing stopping you from starting a design business.  just hire some architects to do the actual architecting when you need them, but you can design and design and design to your hearts content!  oh, and you might want to get a couple paying clients or something.  good luck with that.

Mar 19, 12 3:14 pm  · 
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i r giv up

actually, toaster, there is.

in the state i work in (NY), in order to call yourself an architecture firm, and practice as a firm (with all the protections that a corporation entails), 75% of the shares must be owned by a licensed architect. (it used to be 100% up until a few months ago).

Mar 19, 12 3:54 pm  · 
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x-jla

but you can call yourself a design firm.  Just can't use the word architecture.  I don't think you can hire architects to stamp projects though.  You are limited to what you can design.  Residential can be designed by anyone in my state.  However any building with an occupancy of more than 20 must be designed by an architect.  Each state is different. 

Mar 19, 12 4:10 pm  · 
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DAS99

 "The introvert, who may be brooding over how they think their opinion is better than that of the client's, typically does not have the sort of likability to maintain a good relationship with the client."

FLW  was certainly not constricted by the clients wants if they conflicted with his design vision. I would not have classified him as an introvert. Definitely not a beta. 

@Rusty

"In the other corner, weighing in at 600lbs, the schizo-teckt. COMMUNICATION IS KEY TO EVERYTHING!!1!! Over-promises and under-delivers all the time. TIME FOR A TEAM BUILDING EXERCISE!!!1!!1 Looooooves long, pointless meetings. Not really good at producing actual work. Will stab you in the back and collect your life insurance."

 Wow such an apt description, to the letter.  It's like  you worked for my former boss. Are there really that many of them in the profession? That is kind of scary.  

Jlarch I can't say the licensing process is  a hindrance to the introvert. Nor to the beta. Nor to the   person with shaky self confidence. I think it is the economy that is a hindrance to the process. I think the economy is a hindrance to the introverts. I do think that discussions like this are good to see how the process can evolve to work better and your observation is interesting. 

Mar 19, 12 4:10 pm  · 
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x-jla

Yeah the economy is a hindrance to just about everyone.  It will get better soon...

I agree.  I guess introverts may have a harder time in a bad economy because of the cut-throat atmosphere to get into, and to stay in the game.  However, they may have the upperhand in a really good economy when demand is high for innovative work.

Mar 19, 12 4:19 pm  · 
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zonker

Introverts make less than extroverts - introverts tend to sell themselves short when negotiating with apha types - "I have 300 resumes here - people like you are a dime a dozen these days"

Mar 19, 12 5:01 pm  · 
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jlarch -

 

isn't your argument a kind of false dichotomy or self-reinforcing prophesy? i'm a deep introvert on all the tests, but have had to learn how to compensate when needed. similarly, may 'alpha' types are certainly the loudest people in the room but probably couldn't get a dog to trust them. introverts aren't inherently shy and extroverts inherently 'alpha's'.

 

what's important in our profession are one's communication skills and the style of communication. while there are some stereotypes between intro/extroverts in terms of how the communicate, any reasonably savvy owner is going to play to an individual's strengths regardless of what they are.

 

for whatever these comparisons are worth, most successful firm owners strike me more as introverts who've figured out how to put themselves out there socially. very few strike me as pure extroverts but that's just my own experience. 

 

now, the idea of an institutionalized 'structure' is a wholly different situation. giving up on it has less to do with intro/extra and a whole lot more with your individual b.s. tolerance quotient...

Mar 19, 12 6:37 pm  · 
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cripes, speaking of communication, i can flag about 10 grammar/spelling errors in my post. sheesh...

 

Mar 19, 12 6:45 pm  · 
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What matters most in the profession is learning how to find complementary and synergistic team or work mates. As attractive as the idea that a single genius makes stuff happen, that notion is false. Great enterprises are the result of more than one person's input.

If you look behind the curtains at the "great" companies, you will always find unsung heroes. Similarly, great architects have always had great input from others, even if it's after the fact, as in Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water "issues."

Perhaps this is simply a question of whether or not each person gets the credit they deserve, and what each of us can do to give credit to others when it's due.

Warm regards from Los Angeles,

 

Emmanuel

Mar 20, 12 1:02 am  · 
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Paradox

Screeching monkeys are beta people because being alpha doesn't mean being an obnoxious chatterbox, it is the opposite. The alpha people are confident, they speak with a deep voice, have a good posture and they have good control over their emotions. They generally take control of whatever group they are in. Why are screeching monkeys beta? Because loud people are actually insecure inside, they seek attention and constantly need to get validation from people to feel confident. Alphas get their confidence from their inner selves. Right between the "whale whisperer" and the " schizo-teckt" there is the dog whisperer. Seriously just watch Cesar Millan to learn how to become alpha. He is always calm and in control.  So introverts can be alphas just as good as extroverts but the problem is being alpha and being outgoing is not the same thing. Introverts need some isolation to recharge their batteries so cocktail parties every week is not their thing but I think introverts make good leaders because since they are good at observing and listening to people they can manage them better.  Do we need to go out of our way to socialize? We can take advantage of the online social media, take classes, participate in seminars, just get involved in activities you're passionate about and meet people that way. I don't know about succeeding in office politics though. Just thinking about office politics makes my stomach turn. By the way, Susan Cain is awesome: http://www.ted.com/talks/susan_cain_the_power_of_introverts.html

Mar 20, 12 10:57 am  · 
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RZTZ

As a 23 year old who is in the middle between introverted and extroverted....this is one of my biggest concerns about my personal career. I have had multiple internships where the senior people were seemingly picked solely due to their outgoing and almost "business school" nature.

But I also was shocked at one corporate office when I met the office leader/senior manager...he was funny but didn't have great social skills and looked a little dorky. I guess his big managerial weapon was he would yell at everybody like once a month. He was the exception though to my experience.

Mar 20, 12 1:16 pm  · 
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zonker

then there are those who seemed introverted - but are in fact not self realized - these individuals have deep and profound inferiority complexes - I had a co-worker at an office I worked who would discount me through IM all the time I would see these little messages pop up on my screen - I used to work in the video game industry - this never happened there - and in all due respect - there seems to be a lot of loser attitude or people with low self esteem in this industry - what gives? 

Mar 20, 12 1:50 pm  · 
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toasteroven

there seems to be a lot of loser attitude or people with low self esteem in this industry - what gives? 

 

low self-esteem goes hand-in-hand with self-righteousness.  Architecture seems to attract people who have very strong opinions of "how things should be done" or "how people should live" - they see, through architecture, a means to shape the world to their view of how it should be.  Overly judgmental people tend to have deep-seeded inferiority complexes, which can easily surface the moment they are confronted with their own failings.  people deal with this differently - the extremes are either falling into a fatalistic spiral, dragging down as many people as they can in the process, or turning into an irrational tyrant the moment they gain power.

 

typically the first few years actually working in the field can combat and correct this delusion among recent graduates...

Mar 20, 12 2:50 pm  · 
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design

So we go from trying to correct everything to building generic landscapes,

yes I will comply

Mar 20, 12 4:32 pm  · 
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Obligatory_zyzz_pose.jpg

Being an alpha is about personal, professional, physical and emotional perfection. I don't see very many architects who can overhead press 200 lbs or do deep ass-to-grass widowmakers.

Mar 20, 12 5:20 pm  · 
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SANEinaCRAZYwrld

Architecture in practice is ultimately BUSINESS and whoever is better at selling his/her professional services gets ahead.  If you're an Alpha you attract Alpha clients, if you are a Beta you attract Beta clients.  High-end commercial/residential architecture tends to deal with Alpha real estate brokers and they'll eat you and your design ideas alive if you aren't at their confident ball-busting level.  You gain your power in a firm when you bring in work.  Charisma, articulation, confidence, knowledge, appearance matter.  Get out there and get awesome at flirting with rich people.  

Mar 21, 12 11:58 am  · 
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Nathan_B

Introversion is not a condition, it is a preference. And insofar as it is a preference, introverts are just as able as anyone to speak convincingly and confidently, design great projects, socialize and sell their own work and skills. Introversion is often mistaken for a lack of confidence, soft spokenness, avoidance of social situations, and an unwillingness to standup for oneself. These are not inherent qualities, but are symptoms of individual life experiences, in my case, associated with emotional turmoil and situational attrition. As an introvert who is also lacking in confidence, soft spoken, avoids social situations and is unwilling to standup for myself, I have still been able to go to networking events and make contacts, despite really disliking the idea of it. In practice I have found it easier, as everyone is there for the same reason and all you have to do is talk about your architectural interests. I have also spoken at Toastmaster's meetings, and in my first speech, spoke about my architectural interests which lead me to my first client. It can be really difficult to do this though. The architectural profession, and architecture school, are highly critical environments inhabited by extremely talented and intelligent individuals. Which is why confidence is an important ability. Confidence is not correlated with extroversion.

Insofar as introversion (as preference) is concerned there is a potential for challenges in the office environment. For me, I like to work out ideas of architectural space on my own, in solitude and quiet places, where I can close my eyes and see, or listen, or imagine. This is very challenging to do effectively in an office environment where design may happen in groups, or under the supervision of someone higher-up. But if that's what will make you do your best work, you'll need to find a way to make that work for you. I could list a number of well-known architects who work alone and in quiet places, but I don't want to. When I seek out others who share similar qualities that I have, who have achieved things I deem interesting or remarkable, it usually stems from a lack of self-confidence. I never search these people out because I will learn something from them. I search them out for reassurance. And when I do that I often ask myself, why do I need reassurance? Why do I think that I am not good enough? Why do I think I am not capable? Why do I think I am bound to one path, or one way of doing things? Creative acts are always awkward, and stepping outside the norm to do what it is YOU want to do can be challenging, but if you want to do you, you will find a way. The last thing I want to say is about putting oneself in the right situation. If I take SANEinaCRAZYwrld's comment about being at a "confident ball-busting level," that is representative of a very specific mode of practice, but by all means not the only one. Again, I am tempted to name examples, but the point here is that situating oneself in the mode of practice that best meets your personal goals and personal skills is more likely to bring fulfillment then working in conditions which do not favour your unique traits. The same goes for surrounding oneself with like-minded individuals.
 

Mar 24, 12 1:12 am  · 
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