what about rahul? he's excellent.

UWM's program is much better than OSUs... I can tell you that without a doubt. I've juried at both schools. However, you have to decide if you really want to live in Milwaukee or Columbus for four years! Many people find both cities very unappealing, though Milwaukee is bigger and has more architecture going on.

You'll be lucky to escape the GSD with $50,000 in debt. Try over $100,000 once you factor in the Boston/Cambridge/Sommerville living expenses. The opportunity to go there will open a lot of doors for you in the future, but you really do need to get some financial help or a TA position. You may be able to do this once you have been there for a few years, but I know the GSD likes to use those positions to lure students from foreign countries.

go to GSD man. i had the same problem last year, and ended up not going because of the $$, and the lack thereof. i would have been well over 160k in debt, so i was pretty sure of my decision at that time. one year later, i'm definitely sorry i didn't go.... i understand my decision, debt is scary when you're young and not earning much. but in 10 yrs your pay will go up significantly, and a name like GSD is going to help a lot.

honestly, 50k is not that much in the long run.

Actually Umich admitted me to the MArch&Mud dual degrees; however dual degrees will be more expensive. Compare the two, mud is cheaper, so I only take mud into consideration.

That's Chicago,

I am really surprised to hear " UWM's program is much better than OSUs". In what aspect, the studio or the courses? About OSU, I have heard some positive comments from a student who entered OSU's March program in 2003. She told me the program is strong in architecture theory and the teachers are young and creative, closely following the latest trend in architecture. As to UWM, I have no friends who have studied there, so I do not know it much. I wonder if you can tell me in which way UWM is better than OSU. I really appreciate it.


I've juried at both schools. However, you have to decide if you really want to live in Milwaukee or Columbus for four years! Many people find both cities very unappealing, though Milwaukee is bigger and has more architecture going on.

You'll be lucky to escape the GSD with $50,000 in debt. Try over $100,000 once you factor in the Boston/Cambridge/Sommerville living expenses. The opportunity to go there will open a lot of doors for you in the future, but you really do need to get some financial help or a TA position. You may be able to do this once you have been there for a few years, but I know the GSD likes to use those positions to lure students from foreign countries.

I apologize for my post just now. I have made a mistake in that I copied "That's Chicago"'s post to remind me what he have said, but forgot to delete it before submitting my post. So the last two paragraphs appeared on the post are from "That's C"'s.

Does anyone know how heavy the burden of repayment will be after graduation, according to the average salary level? As an international student who has never been to USA before, I have not much idea of these kind of information.

GSD seems do not provide financial help to international students, except the loan.

dmc,

Thank you for your advice. Your analysis really makes sense.

Another problem is on the degree:professional degrees or post-professional ones?

UWM seems tempting in this way: it provides both two professional degrees after 3 years' study, a MArch and a MUP. These will broaden the areas I can find jobs in.

GSD is famous for its brand name; but MAUD is a post-professional degree, which is not accredited.

Really difficult to choose.

Let me clarify a bit... I would say that the undergrads at OSU are of a higher caliber than the undergrads at UWM... But I thought that the grad student projects were much better at UWM. I work with a few guys from UWM, and they are always touting the program as one of the more under-appreciated programs in the country. ALSO, the dean at UWM was instrumental in creating the new Marcus Prize for Architecture, and the first annual prize went to MVRDV. Rumor has it that MVRDV will be teaching a studio at UWM in the near future (sounds crazy, but it's true).

Another thing to consider... You may want to study Urban Planning in a real urban setting. Columbus is getting bigger, but Milwaukee has more "city" stuff and more city problems. I think it's probably a better laboratory. And, it's only a short train ride to Chicago if you get bored!

That's Chicago,

Thanks for your explanation! I really appreciate it! Now I am leaning towards UWM, compared with OSU.

Still I will look up UWM website to find something about their faculty and facilities. I have known that OSU has a good faculty, such as Jeff kipnis and Ashley Schafer,Doug Graf, and a brand new building. However UWM is tempting in the following ways: graduate projects and urban setting as you mentioned above, a Teaching Assitantship nearly covering all the tuition and expense, earning dual degrees in 3 years.

Thus I can narrow down my choices to these two programs: UWM's dual degree and GSD's MAUD. Fine program with low expense at uwm VS expensive brand name at GSD, I have to carefully think over them and try to make a choice which will not make me feel sorry in the future.

Really hard decision for me. Any advice and suggestions are appreciated :)

MVRDV's studio is going on this semester at UWM.

STUDIO

Thanks louismeier and CuervoMuerto，

But what is UG?...

And will MVRDV still be teaching a studio in the following semester?

Another thing I am concerned with is that is there enough work possiblities near UWM? I think that finding a part-time job during MArch studies will help understand the real world better. And to find a job after graduation will also be important.

Its GSD or OSU, hands down. I'll taut OSU as an alumni; Kipnis alone is the reason. He keeps the program on par with Columbia and Harvard. A lot of times in the past he was doing the same master studio at OSU/Harvard or OSU/Columbia at the same time. He's brought in Mayne, Hadid, Tschumi, Holl, Herzog, Van Berkel and Bos, Diller and Scofidio, Scogin and Elam and this year Wolf Prix as visiting professors in the last few years.

Still, Harvard is the way to go. Who cares about the debt, it really isn't that big of a deal.

The job market for interns and recent grads in Milwaukee is good (well, it was strong when I last lived there four years ago - I'd expect it to be even better now.) There are a number of large and small firms with ties to UWM. Many are close enough (downtown on Wisconsin Avenue and Water Street as well as in the Third Ward) to the school to make it feasible to work part-time during the school year.

Keep in mind that UWM has the only accredited architectural program in the state, so there is a high concentration of architects in the city.

The school is generally supportive of students with internships, and the advising office even keeps a binder of job opportunities. (This is in contrast to schools like UVA that discourage students from working while in school.)

To respond to your desire to pursue an M. Arch and MUP, Milwaukee is a good place to do it, as many have already said. As an undergrad, I received the Certificate of Urban Planning in addition to the BS-Architectural Studies. If I recall correctly, the urban planning thesis offices are in a different part of the building from the ones designated for architectural students; I'm not sure where they put students in the joint program.

silverlake,

I have heard of a lot of good comment on Kipnis; however the problem is, it is said, he is busy visiting other schools such as gsd, columbia,etc. as a critic, thus he has not much time staying at osu.

I am a bit astonished by the big names you mentioned. It seems osu keeps up with new architecture trends. And I have heard that osu focuses on theory and ignores the real world to some extent.

As to GSD, isn't the debt something that should be cared about? I have doubts about this because two of my friends at GSD now told me that the 50k amount of debt will take me 5-10 years to pay off, due to architects' relative low salary. This scared me a bit. Ten years sounded too long a period. Actually most people around me suggest me to go to OSU or UWM since they are also top-tier state schools which can also provide high quality education that is nearly as good as GSD, and what is more, they both provide TA positions covering nearly all the expense, which will make me debt free after my graduation. But I have not make up my mind now, since a chance of studying at GSD is a tempt not easily resisted, although the high debt seems such an obstacle.

If I were you I would go to the GSD, if you think you can cut it in that uber-competetive environment. It will open many doors for you in your early career. At my office, everyone does know who the "Harvard Kids" are... However, they aren't necessarily any more successful... Actually, come to think of it, the University of Illinois grads seem to do the best in our office, but it may just be sheer numbers.

Every decent school brings in some superstars nowadays, and I'm never sure that these studios are that beneficial. At best, they expose you to a starchitect so you can see how full of shit you have to be to make it to that level. It's all about marketing yourself, baby! Usually these guys are so self-absorbed that they have little interest in really teaching students in Ohio anything.

You can't really go wrong with the programs mentioned... However, I personally wouldn't want to live in Milwaukee or Columbus. Both cities are smaller and kind of boring, but that's just my opinion. Milwaukee is definitely on the up and up though, and it does have more of a city feel. But Boston/Cambridge is a REALLY awesome place to live, if you can afford it.

FYI: I graduated from IIT with $60,000 in debt, and I was a Teaching Assistant for two years! It will take me a total of 20 years to pay it off. If you make it out of Harvard with only $50,000 in debt, I will be very surprised.

I am about to graduate (undergrad) from OSU, so thought I could give my 2 cents about the school.

I suppose my commentary will be inheirently bias but I'll try to speak fairly: I agree with the comment about the undergraduate program being stronger than the grad. In fact as a senior I've already had several seminars (including Kipnis) along side the graduates with no problem. Stress is certainly placed more on the Theory/Columbia side of things and as far as an undergraduate is concerned, that's fine. I'm not sure if the Grad Program focuses more on structures, construction, etc., but i seriously doubt it - - The commentary on Columbus is also right on. The city isn't that exciting, so if you decide to come here - get out after graduation. The building however is pretty great, there's a huge shop and growing Fab Lab with 2 laser cutters, a 3D printer, CNC mill (shopbot), digitizer, etc. and emphasis is getting placed more and more on these processes.

But still, in the end, I think the overall reputation of the school might not be where you'd want it to be (or it would) and a degree from Harvard would be more 'marketable.' I won't be applying here, but that's for a whole host of primary reasons that factor in much sooner than any consideration of the program itself.

Good luck with your decision, I hope my assesment is far and I should add that the recent addition of Ashley Schafer as Director does seem to be having an overall positive effect, one whose repercussions are probably going to be more evident in the next 3-5 yrs.

About the MVRVD and jobs questions.

Like people have said, you should have no problems finding jobs here. I had 6 interviews in one day last friday. The school is really good in terms of gething job oportunities for the students.

On the MVRVD thing, the good thing and bad thing about UWM is the inconsistancy in studios. Apart from the XYZ studio, the special topics studios are never really taugth that consistanly. You get individual profesors teaching studios on a pretty consistent basis focused on that faculty member's particular interests, but they do change it a little bit from semester to semester to keep it fresh for both the students and themselves. So I guess to awnser your question I would say I doubt it, but the'll probably still be involved with the school and the city in some form or another (they say they want MVRVD to design somethign for the city).

Oh and one last thing, I personally really like Milwaukke, specially the east side (where UWM is). But it is cold as hell here.

That's Chicago，

Thanks for your advice! It really helps.

Let me clarify a bit about the $50,000 debt. Actually this amount only takes into account of the amount loaned from the citibank through Harvard's HELPLoan program; aside from this, my parents and my aunt will support me for the other $50,000, part of which I still need to pay off, but no interest is required. Take this $50,000 into consideration, the total amount of debt will be $100,000! (Actually Harvard's HELPLoan can loan a student at most half of the amount of the school budget. In my case, half of $100,000, that is $50,000.)

I am also surprised to hear that you got a TA position for 2 years and graduated with $60,000 in debt. Then I guess IIT must be REALLY expensive....As to the 20 years' period, if one can live a normal lifestyle while payment occurs every month, 20 years is a tolerable longth; but if one has to live a miserable life in order to pay off the money for 20 years, it is somewhat terrible. I have no idea of USA's architecture market; but in my home country, to repay $50,000 or $100,000 as an architect is not that easy and may force one to adjust lifestyle dramatically into a thrifty way.

Thanks Mike,

Your first-hand information and comments on OSU help me know the school better. You mentioned"Stress is certainly placed more on the Theory/Columbia side of things", does it means, OSU's arch. education shares the same feature with Columbia University, that is like maya tutorials or something like that? If it is true, maybe OSU does not fit my interest very well...I want to learn something more close to the real world...

Thanks CuervoMuerto,

I've also heard that Milwaukee is really cold; maybe with 6 months' winter, and the lowest temperature may reach down to 20 centigrades below zero ;)

Chicago, Ann Arbor, and Columbus are all just about as cold as Milwaukee... Ann Arbor gets more snow. Why are you not considering Michigan? It is a better school than UWM and OSU. Is the program not what you're looking for?

That's Chicago，

Thanks for all your suggestions and advice ;)

I am a bit surprised to hear that the several cities are about the same cold...then maybe the temperature shouldnot be something taken into concern in my choosing schools, if they are nearly the same.

The followings are why I am not considering Umich:

Umich is certainly very good, and it admitted me in both MArch (2 years) and MUD (10 months) programs. However, it has not promised me financial assitanship up till now, although it told me that my financial aid was on the waiting list in mid March and may came to me in April. Then if I go to Umich's 2-years MArch program, I still have to be in debt after graduate. Umich's yearly expense is as high as GSD (about $50,000), so I think it better to choose GSD's 2-year MAUD program, if I have to choose from the two expensive ones. As to Umich's MUD program, the expense is lower than the former two programs, due to its relative short period of 10 months. But the problem also comes from its short time. In my opinion, 10 months is a bit short, especially for international students like me, because of the language obstacle. A longer study period, about 2 years, will help me sharp my English skill into a higher level, in my opinion. Keeping these factors in mind, I have now narrowed down my choices into these two programs: GSD' s expensive program of 2-years MAUD and UWM's cheap dual degree programs of 3-years MArch&MCP

IS UMICH REALLY 50K/YR? i go to umich UG, pay nothing, and i get over 1k back through financial aid (no loans),
i believe instate 2G program is around 30..

is the trend that grad schools offer less state funding to students compared to undergrad?
instate vs out grad program funds?

tuition's around $28,000 for out of state students per year. the $50,000 is including living expenses perhaps.

oh ok.. well that makes sense since aa is extremely pricey, but you can always live in the arch building, there's a shower now, and lounges with bean bags

Right，$50,000 is the total budget. According to Umich's admission letter, the totally yearly budget is $46,273 for MArch program and $53,740 for MUD program, for international students.

ALWAYS living in the arch building? Are you serious? It is really amazing that there is even a shower!

no. not serious about living in the building, you may die. but yes the shower was installed this year - aimed at decreasing driving to studio and increasing travel by bike or other sweaty activities

Yes, if the prices are similar you should DEFINITELY pick Harvard over Michigan. All of the schools you mention are good schools, so you can't lose.

favonian - are you looking to be an urban designer or an urban planner? if you're looking to be an urban planner, i hope you're not doing it for the money...

favonian - I was at Harvard 10 years ago and left at the beginning of my first year for the opportunity to study with a recent Pritzger Prize winner. I walked into a fellowship at the other school and went to grad school for free rather than paying for 2+ in Boston. I've never regretted my decision, and don't believe that Harvard's education is necesarily any better than any of the others you mentioned. Architecture, like all art spirals around the the core of one's self identity...the question is one of how will you deepen your sense of perspective and insight? This can happen at almost any school.

However, there are two reasons why you SHOULD strongly consider Harvard:

1. If you ever wish to teach, there are only two to three names that look as good on a CV. If you want to teach, you want to do so at a school with a strong endowment...and Harvard's is by far the richest.
Michigan, with its robber-baron Taubman millions, is also in the top ten. University of Wisconsin system, and by extension UWM, is hurting financially. I don't know about OSU's coffers.

Also, if you attend Harvard, you have a better (perhaps only?) chance to teach at Harvard.....if you so desire. Like it or not, Harvard is a pedigree that is difficult to match, though it says little about actual aptitude as an architect. You might think that you'll never want to teach, but how will you feel after 10 years of practice? Who knows.

2. Harvard folks tend to stick together, look out for one another. Its a club. If your not in it, you aren't missing much. But I've seen critic after critic laud a fellow GSD'er's work. Looking for a job? Think about your network. Starting your own firm? Why not ask a former prof to help you get an exhibit, write an introduction, or give you leads for getting work published. People at Harvard tend to know more influential people than people almost anywhere else.
That's how it works.

Choose for your life circumstances now, but open your eyes to the opportunities down your professional road as well.

under

Favonian- I can’t really see why you would pick any other school than the GSD. If you are concerned about money then why do it in the first place? The MAUD is not a professional degree, if you are already trained as an architect, then you should be able to break into the field of Urban Design without a degree. If you were looking at an architecture degree I would think different- but for Urban Design? Harvard invented that degree. They are still the best. They still have the biggest network. Do you want to do interesting urban design work post graduation? Think about it- there are a handful of private firms in the United States that are worth looking at. If you want to get placed at one of those firms, well you are going to get a leg up at Harvard. You want to work with an interesting developer in the future? You want to work in a big city planning office- say Manhattan planning? As far as planning goes- any course at MIT or the Kennedy School are available to you. I agree with the comments above, not everyone that passes through Harvard is a genius or the most talented person- but getting a post professional degree is about agency. You need to choose a place that gives you options, maximum exposure and a great post school network. One other thing to look at who wins the ULI the most often- the GSD…

cosmoe

Favonian- a couple of other thoughts after reading the other comments posted above.

1. Are you interested in planning or urban design? As an international student you may not understand the difference, but in the United States, these disciplines are treated very differently- unfortunately I think. Planning is a professional degree. It has its own professional association. It’s not really based in the world of design or I would say it’s at the far end of the spectrum. If you get a planning degree, you will be nuanced in real estate law, economics, local government zoning, community politics, etc. The difference is that you won’t be so involved in actually designing urban fabric- giving it an aesthetic. The planning degree is typically set up for those that are interested in working in government. Working in government you won’t be as involved as a designer, rather, you will come up with rules and regulations that tell designers what to do, where to build, guide communities and local political leaders into accepting architectural proposals, etc. What you won’t be doing: generating urban proposals- for the most part that will be contracted out of office. There are exceptions to this rule, but that is the typical. As far as urban planning goes, the GSD is o.k., but probably not the best I would consider MIT or UCLA and there are others. If you want to get a job, with the job title of “Urban Planner” in the United States, then it would be helpful to get an Urban Planning degree.

2. If the above description does not fit, or you plan on applying your post graduate degree outside of the United States- as an Urban Designer- then go to the GSD. Especially if you are planning to practice internationally, especially. I guarantee that most people abroad have heard of Harvard- the University of Wisconsin, Madison? Well… If you want opportunities to open for you internationally, and if you want your studies to have an international focus, the GSD will help to provide those.

Good luck with the decision making, I know it’s tough.

Cosmoe.

Thanks, under and cosmoe, your suggestions are both so helpful! I have been asking myself what I want to do in the future and struggling with a decision for a whole night...

And does anyone have some idea on how the work possiblities and job market are like near OSU? Are there many architecture firms in or near Columbus?

Thanks;)

Hi Fav, I'm currently in the same situation--trying to decide on which school to pick. Right now it's between OSU and UWM and I'm almost certain I'm sticking with UWM.
 My reasons:
1)Cheaper
2)It's in a larger urban environment with a lot more firms
3)The quality of the staff seem to be on par with OSU's
4)Oh, did I mention cheaper?

I'm an out of state student (California) and my total calculated expenses will be $28,530 for an entire year. This is certainly cheap in comparison to other top tier programs.

Also, I spoke to the dean at OSU Knowlton to ask him about the locale and he told me it's a really big suburb. =(

P.S. Did you know that U. Michigan's Taubman School of Arc outranked GSD according to design intelligence's 2011 report?

Btw, I'm guessing that the graduate students at UWM are a higher caliber than the undergrads because a lot of the grads are coming from U. Wis-Madison

Why did you dig up a thread that was five years old?

Here, this is only two years old from the UK, and I imagine that number is worse today in the States. Decide wisely because you will have less than 50% chance of finding work.

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/daily-news/architecture-graduate-unemployment-reaches-new-high/5210336.article