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How much do architecture students normally pay to outsource graphic content?

189

Well, I'm sure that students are supposed to do their own work A-Z, but sometimes in cases such as senior showcases they will prefer to outsource some of their presentation materials in order to save time. 

Some typical graphics that I have seen being outsourced are rendersdiagramslayout panels.

We mostly know that a good render costs somewhere between 800 to 5,000 USD and a student will normally need more than a single image.

Now I would like to ask if how much do they normally pay for such services?

Thank you in advance.

 
Nov 6, 18 8:32 pm
Non Sequitur

Students out-source renderings?  Fucking lazy fuckers.

Own your work or get the fuck out.

Nov 6, 18 8:48 pm
jcarch

At first I thought you were a student aiming to do this, but on second reading you’re hoping for stuff Denys to hire you to do their renders?  Do I have that right?


Not much of a market for this.  Why?  Most students don’t have $ to do it.  And most are ethical so wouldn’t do it even if they had the funds.


If one of my students presented work that wasn’t theirs, and I found out about it, I would fail them for cheating.  I’m sure all my colleagues would do the same.  The exception would be students helping each other, as that happens on students’ thesis projects, and is more in the spirit of helping than deceiving.  Hiring outsiders is cheating pure and simple.

Nov 6, 18 9:14 pm

Hello and thank you for your response. 

I assume that my description was misleading. To correct myself, I am not looking for an answer to if there is or there is not a marketplace for such services. In fact, I have an experience of studying in three different universities, each located in a different country, and I could assure you that chances are that you presumably missed catching your own students if they ever outsourced their presentation materials. 

In fact, out of more than 500 votes that I received through an online poll more than 73% of the architecture scholars identify at least two classmates who outsource products such as renderings, diagrams, layout design, and even 3D models. Moreover, I personally have worked with students and provided them with such services. As an example, for a senior project of 1 physical model, 5 renders, 5 diagrams, and a layout, I received an amount of 4,100 United States Dollars. For your reference, I provided almost the same service for 6 more seniors from the same college, from the same batch. 

Eventually, I am confident that there are scholars who pay a massive amount of money just because you and your associates might fail them for bad presentation materials, but a decent understanding of architecture and the philosophy of form. Of course, our planet would be more soulful of a world if every architect had the ability to sell their idea through presentation skills, but at the end of the day, for you as an instructor, it should be the space between the walls that matters, not renders and beautiful graphics.

RickB-Astoria

Careful there. If the particular course is about how to present and using rendering then it would be crucial for the student to be doing the work themselves. If the student outsources the work, it would be the same as a student taking a math class having someone else do their math homework for them. Even in a course where it isn't entirely about rendering but a particular assignment is, again the student is suppose to do the work not an outside source. Architecture students are suppose to be taught these skills among many others so they have some of the basic skills. It can be argued as to the importance of rendering skills in the whole scheme of architecture education but it is just on of many bodies of knowledge. What you would be doing is facilitating the lazy student's cheating. Read up "academic dishonesty". 

If the instructor approves the use of outsourcing for rendering for the work to be done then I don't see a problem with it especially if rendering isn't a factor in the composition of the work as a whole and how the presentation communicates. There is a threshold of when outside assistance is acceptable and when it is not. As a default rule, students shall personally prepare the work themselves and only with members of their assigned or established team of fellow students. Any exception should be explicitly authorized by the instructor / professor in writing.

Thank you, Rick. That is correct, but as I cannot normally check the university policies of each and every student who contacts me, we normally start the process by signing a legal contract mentioning that the provider does not take any responsibilities if co-operating in such projects are against the recipient's school policies. These students are normally seniors so I believe that they ask for such help to save time and energy to work more on their design process.

RickB-Astoria

Bullshit. At least, you can check every single accredited post-secondary education in the United States. They ALL have such policies posted on their website. For one, you should not be offering these services to students. In some places in the world, it might actually be against the law which no contract can ever immune you or your business from it. One thing you can do is ask if this is for academic work or if it is for purely commercial business work. Students are suppose to rely on themselves to do the work. Students who seek the service you are providing them are doing it to try to get an A off the rendering while their actual knowledge and skills are closer to a D-. It is like asking a professional architect to do the homework for the student. The pro would and should be able to produce A+ level work all the time for studio work. You know that the students are going to submit the work you produce as their own. As far as you care, you are getting paid not whether or not your work does anything for the student. 

BUYER BEWARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a BUYER'S BEWARE notice on this site, do not use Erf Ami's services for your homework. What he offers can and most likely will cause you to face SERIOUS academic disciplinary actions which includes expulsion from the educational institution which means you can have some or all your academic work and credits possibly invalidated and credits administratively revoked.... in extreme cases. You will most likely be kicked out of the degree program, possibly expelled from the educational institution and fail the courses. This can further put you in financial troubles with the student aid you maybe using to finance your education. You are cheating yourself the most and also you face ruining your pursuit to the career you want. Being expelled from an academic institution can make it harder to get admissions at other institutions and your records from previous institution maybe sent to the future institutions especially around any expulsion. This can seriously set you back in life. For what it is worth, do not use Erf Ami's services. UNLESS you have in writing from the instructor that is issued to all students of the class that allows you to use outside services such as rendering services to assist in your work, do NOT use outside sources. If the work is meant to be solely prepared by you, you do it yourself in the manner using the skills you possess. The idea of studio courses is to apply the knowledge and skills you learn from the subject courses and apply it in a 'project setting'. The idea to use your knowledge and skills from multiple subject courses and apply them to a specific project. Those skills will involve a range of theories and principles, drawing/sketching, drafting, and even some rendering like watercolor and ink rendering. 

Do yourself a favor and learn it. Do yourself a favor and apply your knowledge and skills. There are limited exceptions of using content prepared by others like using zoning codes or historic background information of an existing building. Then giving credit. There are very limited situations where the services of Erf Ami and others like him would be okay to use. It is unlikely you would be using that for most projects in most academic settings. By using his services for your introductory studio courses and most courses in general, you risk being expelled or suspended from the college/university. You risk being kicked out of the program and administratively failing the class due to not adhering to academic honesty requirements. You fail to do this and you usually get punished while Erf Ami will most likely moves on to collecting money from the next sucker he preys upon without any serious ramification. 

Who loses out? You the student. He already collected the money and there is next to nothing you can do to recover it. He gets to collect money and prance away with your money in his wallet and with a big smile while you get a big fat F, expulsion from the university and never finishing your degree to pursue this degree. If you give a damn about your future, follow the academic rules even if it is inconvenient.

Thank you for your criticism, Rick. In the beginning, I would like to advise you that the audience of this website are mostly civilized, so we might discuss our subjects in a respectful manner.

Regarding your comment, I value what you suppose. Regrettably, even if you count this as a plagiaristic progress, such services are normally secure and royalty free. Royalty free means that once these elements are acquired by the consumers, we do not hold any rights. It means that students will own one hundred percent of the outcome and there is no data that they have outsourced anyway. I officially launched this business some years ago in Dubai, now in Spain. We are a bigger team now and we are arranging projects on a global level, that is why I was asking for prices to complete my research market for the website and social media boosts. 

In conclusion, as I believe that you are an extremist touching this subject, I would love to share with you these two websites which write essays for students: 

https://essayshark.com

https://www.wiseessays.com

You could go forward and report them as well.

Eventually, if you belong to the same era that we live in, you also have an access to Google; therefore, you shall grasp the idea that such services exist in every single field of studies.

RickB-Astoria

There are scammers and predators that preys on students. They exist and just like the Nigerian scammers, you can shut down a website and it be up again at another URL location. Students who uses these services you presented, they are the ones who gets punished. Add to it, students who uses these services will flat out fail miserably in any real academic courses especially ones that requires actual research. I do know about these services and I have been in academic level courses geared for Masters (post-baccalaureate level) students and expectations. If I relied on these services, I would outright fail the courses because you can't effectively outsource the writing assignments. Even if the writers at these services did a marvelous job at research and writing but if I, the student, didn't do the work.... how am I to know or understand what was researched on. I had to write essay analysis that required reading and comprehending not just one but multiple assigned sources to read and do comparative & contrast analysis. Take for example comparing and contrasting between different authors written material in "Common Places: Readings in American Vernacular Architecture" and other sources as well. In class, I would be asked a question (not verbatim to that of written essays) in regards to those readings. 

If for example, I were to have this stellar report written by these services, as a student I would likely flop miserably in the verbal questions asked in class. Why? If I didn't write the essays, would I have read the material at an analytical level? Probably not. My point is, in-class participation is an additional metric in which an instructor/professor can gauge a student's understanding of the subject matter and if their writing is spectacularly stellar so should their in-class responses to questions be comparatively in kind. A student that reads and understands what they read should be able to comprehend and articulate comparatively and argumentatively and be able to do that in written and in verbal. Perhaps the verbal articulation may not be as fine and polished but the understanding should be comparatively deep. Guess what, students need to know how to write and do their shit. If your argument is just because there are people who provides these kinds of services that it is okay for you. That argument is about as daft as just because you seen cocaine sellers get away with selling cocaine that it is okay for you. 

If students aren't interested in learning the shit they signed on to by applying AND by enrolling then the right course of action for them to do is either to change their major or drop out. Plain and simple. I been in academia long enough and wrote enough essays, reports, etc. to know that if you didn't do the work, it will show in your in-class participation. It would raise the question of "Did you write this _________ or did you have someone or some service write it for you? It is these services that every accredited institution or recognized academic institution that is recognized by the U.S. Department of Education have academic honesty requirements of students to abide by. In essence, those services you mentioned are prohibited to be used by any accredited academic institution in the U.S. and any equivalently recognized/accredited institution in ANY country in the world INCLUDING Spain. 

 As I said before, there is sometimes situation where certain things maybe acceptable to outsource. The way this is usually done in academia that is sanctioned is students teaming up with students in landscape architecture so the landscape architecture students might work on landscape design. They might outsource some of the rendering to students enrolled in an art class. So, the idea to work interdisciplinary. It is when it is part of a clearly interdisciplinary type of assignment or studio where it would be considered sanctioned. Is there a time and place for your kind of service? Yes there can be a time and place for your kind of service in an academic setting. However, the right way to do this stuff is not particularly convenient for you because you want to have minimal contact so that you can do a rendering and get paid. The amount of money a student would have to pay for your services would be paltry. You want to be the anonymous person doing the work for the student, get paid, and prance away while the student faces the risk of expulsion which would be of no concern to you. You don't want to be in a position of being accountable. That is a problem. Use of ANY third-party that isn't particular sanctioned or approved or acceptable to be used is DANGEROUS grounds for the student who uses those third-party. It is one thing for a room mate, fellow student in class, or parent or whoever to proofread a writing or give their take or critique prior to a pin-up session. It is one thing for them to assist. The threshold at stake is between "assisting" and "doing the assignment for them". The student or students taking the course needs to do the assignment substantially themselves. 

It is one thing to have someone to take some photographs because they have a good camera and good photo-taking skill especially if the student is along to point out what he or she wants to photograph but the photographing is only a small incidental piece of the larger work. Sure, I could have someone else do the photographing or pilot a drone with a camera without much issue especially if the photographing is merely tangential to the work as a student. If my class was photography, it would be inappropriate for me to outsource it but it wouldn't necessarily be an issue for a historic preservation class where I maybe doing a historic structures survey and the drone was for photographing the roof area of a building which might be dangerous or difficult to do without the drone whereas other photographs of a building might be something I can do myself. 

In every academic assignment I have worked on in the past 18 YEARS, I do the work myself (except group project where it is a group effort.... duh.) with very little to no assistance by others. At no point have I EVER used services like those services you had referenced. I may use some online tutorials about essay writing and how to cite sources in a particular format. Sure, that's fine. It is another thing to have someone write your essays for you or so your class assignment for you.

RickB-Astoria you should stop spamming all this section

merrycornaro

Sara Lucey that's so true he keeps on scaring people from outsourcing renders cos he is a loser himself!!! :))))

merrycornaro

STUDENTS YOU CAN OF COURSE OUTSOURCE YOUR RENDERS AND ALL YOUR GRAPHICS DON'T LISTEN TO RICK HE IS PROBABLY A LOOSER

RickB-Astoria

Sara, do you have written proof of any kind of authorization for outsourcing rendering from your instructor or the institution? If you had rendering outsourced, did you do the majority of the actual classwork or homework? Yes or no. Was rendering a graded criterion of the assignment beyond being graded in the overall context of presentation of the pinup (or equivalent when done online) as part of the overall composition. What was your involvement in those assignments. My point is not about outsourcing the rendering being outright wrong. No. There is situations where it might be acceptable but then you credit those who did it even IF you own the work. While you may have the copyright, you still recognize the works of those in a work for hire situation. You should have had a class on ethics somewhere in the schooling. Maybe you were asleep in class or something.

RickB-Astoria

BTW: Don't tell me that AAU don't instruct about rendering. An institution that has architecture, animation & Visual effects, Fine Art, Game Design, Graphic Design, Illustraion, Visual Development, and Motion Picture & Television that they don't instruct something about rendering especially computer-based rendering.

zero

Nov 6, 18 11:02 pm
Justin Turdo

Doing this should get you expelled from University. 

Nov 6, 18 11:38 pm

i never got expelled and im working a well paid job now

merrycornaro

NEITHER DID I GET CAUGHT!!!!

Non Sequitur

I ask folks how they generate their renderings in their folios in the office. Plenty use images that were from group projects (eg: not theirs) or generated through Autodesk's cloud renderfarm. When they can't replicate the same work in an office setting, they get passed over.

merrycornaro

Non Sequitur Listen stop trying hard you just can never know if a student did his render or not. :) End of story and get back to your work.

Non Sequitur

You can if you hire them and expect them to produce similar graphics.

merrycornaro

Maybe you would do such a bullshit move to just annoy a student but based on my background and the professors that I have had no one gave a damn about anything accept the actual project. Actually good graphics and renders always make the school look good so even if they know that it is outsourced they would NEVER annoy the student unless they are like you and they are just born this way. Every architect knows that rendering and diagrams are not even a part of a normal architect's life after graduation. Even in the professional level it is always outsourced everywhere in the world.

Non Sequitur

We do all of our own graphics in house and take great pride in it. You're supporting your point with a false generalization. We all have our own unique styles and skills so that the important design and managing architects can meet the client's various expectations. It's a big world out there, try to catch up.

merrycornaro

OKE OKE u damn right but we all outsourced in school days anyways and we are all working and getting paid with no problems. I am tired now bye.

Non Sequitur

and your portfolio's and employable value is thus negatively affected. Glad we came to a natural conclusion.

merrycornaro

It is not affected in any way as I am getting paid and doing what I love which is designing buildings, and not renderings and photoshop diagrams. Peace.

RickB-Astoria

"...but we all outsourced in school days anyways and we are all working and getting paid with no problems." Hahaha.... I'll tell you something, when a group of us was doing a design charette, 5 days.... basically a hell of an intensive while each of us had a full time class load.... guess what we did our work. The two landscape architecture students that were part of a team of 4, myself, an Ecological Design student, and two landscape architecture students. We produced the work. They did a physical model AND a ink/watercolor rendering which looked pretty good. I wish I had a photo of the rendering. We did the deliverable. I did the drafting/building design. First laid it out by paper and pencil and then transfer that to CAD. To put it simply, we didn't make excuses for not being able to do a rendering, a physical model, floor plans, site plan, etc. We didn't outsource jack shit. I would hire those 3 students if I had an opportunity to do so. That worked hard. As for diagramming? Haven't you heard of color markers, sharpies, and pencil/pen, and tracing paper?

RickB-Astoria

"Maybe you would do such a bullshit move to just annoy a student but based on my background and the professors that I have had no one gave a damn about anything accept the actual project. Actually good graphics and renders always make the school look good so even if they know that it is outsourced they would NEVER annoy the student unless they are like you and they are just born this way. Every architect knows that rendering and diagrams are not even a part of a normal architect's life after graduation. Even in the professional level it is always outsourced everywhere in the world." 

If I was hiring, and the posted position indicated on the description of some of the job duties of such a position that employees in such positions may be tasked to do renderings and then you show me your portfolio and resume or CV and you present to me renderings that you claim as your own work then yes, I would assign tasks like rendering. A task I would assign to relatively new hires among others. You might call it a bullshit move but guess what, it is called I'm the boss and you're the employee and it is not a democracy. I have the right to assign tasks. If it becomes clear that you can't do the job, you're fired and the task be assigned to someone else. The reason you would be fired is you misrepresented yourself which is grounds for termination of employment. Guess what, where I operate, it is an "At will" employment. 

Honesty goes a lot farther than lying or deception. Why? I can risk hiring an employee who I know isn't the most spectacular but is competent and honest about where they are weak. Then I can plan appropriately including determining how much I am willing to pay the person in either wage or salary. At least I know what I am getting. At least I know I may have to put some time and effort in helping that person develop their skills and then they may shine. Perhaps a rough gem but with polishing, become a spectacular gem. That is what I look for in employees.... forthright, candidness, and downright honesty in their strengths and weaknesses. If I really need someone with rendering skills and you indicate honestly that you don't have those skills, we would not have to waste each other's time and money in employing you to a position which you are not qualified do to lacking areas. If I was hiring, I'm a lot more flexible about matters regarding education. I'm less concerned about a person having a specific pedigree of degrees. I would hire people without the formal education if they can demonstrate they possess or substantively possess the knowledge and skills they would have gained in formal schooling. That's a difference between me and some around here. 

However, a person should be humble enough to not be trying to pull a wool over my eyes to try to get the job. If anything to be said here, I believe my fellow colleagues in this broad field of architecture (art and science of designing of buildings and inhabited spaces/places) in leadership roles of their respective firms are in general alignment with my main points I am making here.

RickB-Astoria

"Well, I'm sure that students are supposed to do their own work A-Z"

That says it all. You do your own work. Limited exceptions exists but then you credit it. However, when you are talking about rendering which is a component of the education of architecture education and the various skill sets you are suppose to learn. 

First off, shiny renderings isn't as important as you think. DESIGNING is. In architecture school, a good hand drawn design and decent watercolor rendering is sufficient enough but good designing and good design thinking about spatial form and functional arrangements for effectiveness of use of space is more important than some polished turd because no matter how polished it is and how shiny the rendering wrapper is.... it is still a turd. Shit is still shit. 

If you did this at University of Oregon and I knew you did this, I would be considering reporting you for what is in simple academic vernacular is *cheating*. I said.... "considering" but the verdict would still be out as to whether or not I actually pursue it.

As I said earlier, there is limited exceptions and all facts must be considered including whether or not the nature of the work involved is such that rendering is not a critical factor in grading and that it maybe no different than outsourcing Kinkos to print out your work and doing the binding. It depends.

The issue is how much of the work is YOUR work and how much if merely incidental was someone else involved. Asking your room mate to help you glue down pieces on a model maybe insignificant but having them do the significant part of the work of it maybe too much of a significant threshold. 

I wouldn't recommend having other people do your academic work for you as that would be against the rules of any academic institution. The work must represent YOUR knowledge and skills or that of your project team. 

As far as outsourcing and how much to pay.... I never done that for academic work but when I had people help me even briefly as an assistant be it in measuring or otherwise, I pay them as I would any other person in a like role. It would at least be equal to minimum wage level but sometimes more. It is about fair and reasonable and this is for work I am being paid for the services.

As far as academic work, it is generally unlikely students have the money and most rendering services are commercial services intended for businesses in an B2B services just as architects once had outsourced or contracted an artist to do a rendering. 

Nov 7, 18 12:10 am

Hello Rick. Thank you for your acknowledgment. As I mentioned in my initial reply to one of the comments, I assume that my statement was misleading. 

As you could find in my response to @jcarch, I do not outsource presentation materials, I provide them. It is strange how you have suggested the University of Oregon. In fact, back in 2016, I had a customer from the same institution whom I worked with on a full layout panel and a couple of visualizations. How our work regularly starts is by signing a legal contract mentioning that the provider does not take any responsibilities if co-operating in such projects are against the recipient's school policies. 

Again, thank you for your feedback, but this forum is not about the regulations of the University of Oregon. Please respond only if you are aware of the price ranges in your area to respect the subject of this subdivision.

RickB-Astoria

University of Oregon was an institution I went to but most academic institutions have policies about academic dishonesty which is, by the way, a criteria that has to be met for institutional accreditation. In other words, if the degree and the credits from those courses are even going to be legal and worth a damn, it has to be accredited and that means there has to be some institutional rules about academic dishonesty. If it was permitted for students to do things dishonestly in academic settings, it would mean that the student's degree isn't worth the paper it is written on and it could be contested and revoked as well as expulsion and firing of whoever (administration, faculty, staff) knowingly permits such to happen.


Thank you for your rejoinder again, Rick. To respond to your thought with full honesty, I believe that a student degree, no matter if the student is following the policies or not, is not worth the paper it is written on anyway. I am not sure if how old you are, but I am 23. I loved architecture ever since I was a kid, I have always been the most praised architecture student at my university but I never liked university anyway. I am just trying to finish my degree because my father wants me to and I want him to be happy. It has always been an unsolvable question mark for me that why do people even talk about the worth of a university degree when it gets them neither respect nor a decent job. I make more money than my friends who already graduated and rendering is just a hobby of mine. If a student doesn't want to learn rendering, programming, or mathematics they are not lazy, they are just not interested. These people surely have a greater passion for something different and they just had to go through university merely to be accepted by society. I truly hope that more and more people start going after what they love, instead of having to fulfill cultural expectations.

Non Sequitur

You’re only fucking 23 and very very naive... i’d Even add that you’re rather dumb. Students paying others to do their work is incredibly lazy and will do nothing but harm them. Instant fail/expulsion i’d say. If one cannot present their ideas, they will fail outside of school. That’s the main point of arch school, not just “pay to graduate”.

Non Sequitur, first of all he is gently responding to people why are you insulting him? if you wanna teach him your false facts, and you yourself are a result of years of education then id say that education is ridiculous. this is a place for architects and i highly doubt that you are one! its so obvious that you are jealous of this guy being 23 and doing more good to architecture field than you ever did in your lifetime. pls read my comment that i posted under and know that you couldnt be more wrong

Non Sequitur

I am licensed and practicing... I also have several large projects completed and boat loads of experience in practice and in academia. Certainly this must be your first day here. I remain correct and your particular perspective does not reinforce the terrible POV on the value of process and education the OP speaks of.

merrycornaro

Non Sequitur could you show us some of your boatloads of experience??

 (To correct you, Mr. educated, you don't write Boat Loads, but you write it as Boatloads. I am Italian and I know that.) Let students buy renders I don't see what is your problem?

Non Sequitur

Merry, I have just north of half a billion in built projects over the last 10 years. I work with plenty of fresh staff with shiny portfolios which are not proper representation of their skills as employees. If you can't see the problem, then there is no helping you. I don't need to prove anything to you, first time user, but stick around if you feel you have something else to add. You'll see our utter rejection of your position is well founded.

merrycornaro

Yes, you have half a billion of universal inbuilt projects and I also can say that I am Angelina Jolie talking to you here. =)) As long as there is no evidence or proof you can bullshitttt your way through. To correct your again Mr. half a billion educated anti-outsource it is spelled as Inbuilt and not In Built.

Non Sequitur

inbuilt? Not sure I follow but you don't strike as the clever rational type anyways.

merrycornaro

Stop arguing show us the proof of your half a billion Norman Foster lifestyle

Non Sequitur

I don't need to prove anything to you. Not sure why you even think that's a worth thing to expect. Did your mother tell you to say that? Or perhaps a lifestyle coach?

RickB-Astoria

merry, it's boatloads unless it is the first word of a sentence or a name / title of a person, business, place, or thing in which you would use a capital 'B'. Bullshit is spelled with a single 't'. Bullshitter is spelled with two t's. Bullshitting is also spelled with two t's but ending with -ing instead of with -er. 


Almosthip7

Wow. Just wow. Our firm does not outsource renderings. We pride ourselves in producing quality images. Who is getting the fees to allow for outsourcing?

Non Sequitur

^Perhaps offices that offer unpaid internships simply move the salary costs of quality staff to foreign CGI slave farms.

randomised

Thanks to Rick I will not be reading the entire thread, way too long now. I first thought you were looking for a good price to pay for those renderings and were considering outsourcing but apparently you're looking for a price to charge, no? 

I personally think it's unethical for students to outsource their work, so I think what you do is wrong, but I also know students do outsource their work, (also because of all the spam in the comments in threads here ;) ) or have other assistance (parents, roommates, narcotics) etc. 

The reality is, people in our field outsource their work all the time, it's called an architecture office. So why not students? Let them get the hang of running their own shop, being the project manager of their own student project. It will prepare them for their future role in an office when they are either doing or managing other people's work any way.

I don't know why people would pay for an education and also pay for people to produce stuff so they can pass but people are strange sometimes.

Nov 7, 18 4:08 am
Steeplechase

I had heard that back in the day my school would assign groups of lower students to a senior student as a sort of project staff. The lower student would have production assistance while the lower students would have a mentor/assistance for their projects.

randomised

That is valuable experience for both seniors and junior I guess, interesting concept.

thatsthat

Had a classmate try to redline my drawings in a studio once. I almost punched him in the face.

randomised

best would be to take out that sharpie just before pin up on freshly plotted posters, probably get x-actoed on the spot.

archinet

Everyone take a look at Erf Ami rendering style and if a student of yours presents the same style fail them. 

Thank you Erf Ami for helping us determine which students are cheating

Nov 7, 18 4:40 am
randomised

Nothing to see there

merrycornaro

archinet I can imagine you fool looking at Erf Ami's renders and memorizing the style, and then go to school and get paranoid and doublethink on every single render to make sure if Erf Ami did it or not. =)))) omg this is so much fun!!!! OMG hahahaha, to be honest, he even makes students sign a contract and he gives them the right so you can never get this guy nor the students who work with him he is the Wolf of Wallstreet making everyone happy XD

jcarch

Yes, people cheat.  Yes, people get away with cheating.  You clearly don't realize that your eagerness to help them cheat is disturbing.  Kudo's (I guess) for using your real name (?) on the internet to show off your complete lack of ethics.

I wonder how your 'clients' do as they go out into the real world, getting jobs with your work in their portfolios, and then - uh oh - being expected to produce that same level of work at their new firm.  That could get awkward fast.

But besides all that, this seems like a crappy business model.  There must be a small percentage of students who both share your lack of ethics, and have lots of extra cash lying around to pay you with.  You know who has lots more money than students?  Architectural firms.  Why wouldn't you look to do renderings for them?

Also, please show us some samples of your rendering work, I'm dying to see what they look like.

Nov 7, 18 10:26 am
randomised

Architecture is basically about telling other people what to do, so for the sake of argument why is it such a big problem if that is already applied at university? A principal in an office also hires people to make his drawings and renderings, so why can't students do the same? If it is about coming up with the ideas but not wasting time executing them, why not?

Non Sequitur

Is that a serious question Rando? Why not just hire someone to sit down and write your architect exams while we're at it?

randomised

for the sake of argument ;)


randomised

Your boss hired you to take those exams for him to make all those buildings come into reality as well while he/she is out having cocktail parties on yachts, on yachts!

Archicore

I think the real question here is about what architects should know. More specifically, what architecture graduates should know leaving school. Our lovable friend Erf up there believes that skills in rendering and presentation aren’t important to architecture graduates. Rando, you seem to place more priority in project management skills. In the end, we all have our opinions about what architects are really supposed to know. 

This seems to be a big source of disparity between academia and the field . Our differing opinions on what architects should know how to do, is reflected in how we talk about these subjects. Architecture is difficult because as designers we are both responsible for something as undefinable as aesthetics, while also being professionally responsible for life & safety, etc. If we compare architecture to art, architects lose their practicality. If we compare it to engineering, architects just become engineers.

 Pulling this back to the topic, without a clear definition on what exactly architects should know (beyond licensing requirements), how can we define what our university graduates should know? I personally find it important for a graduate to know how to render, both from a production standpoint, as well as the ability to view the “presentation” of their building. In the end, all architecture is really just an amalgamation of materials and shapes that “present” themselves in some way. This presentation is key, and not understanding how to take a step back from your building, and really think about how people will view it is detrimental in my opinion. Who really cares what message your building is trying to convey, if, the second it’s viewed from a ground perspective, that message doesn’t read? Project management on the other hand is something I feel is better taught in a firm setting. Group projects in my education were nothing compared to the actual project management experience I’ve gained so far.

 All of the above doesn’t even mention the ethical dishonesty of passing off someone else’s work as your own, whether or not you “own the rights” to it.

Non Sequitur

rando, a yacht on a yacht? That;s one helluva large boat.

randomised

Non, the repetition was for dramatic effect only, sorry.

Non Sequitur

.

randomised

Archicore, I don't put emphasis on the project management side of things. I just draw a parallel with how a real office is run and how they hire people to do the actual work, or does the principal at your office do everything from structural calculations to fancy renderings, makes the CD set and makes coffee for everyone? People who hire a render dude/dudette or buy an essay online are doing the same thing basically, they pay someone for a service they need, but in the context of a university (which they also pay for). Does an architecture student need to know how to make renders themselves or does an architecture student simply need to know how to get the right renders for the project they are working on? If you as an architecture student can instruct somebody well enough to make the render for you so that you will pass, that is quite an achievement I would say and requires an understanding of architecture more valuable in the real world than knowing which settings in V-Ray give the desired results. (playing devils advocate here)

RickB-Astoria

Many firms do hire people to do rendering among the many other tasks they perform. Renderings are part of the deliverable of the services rendered. Architecture business is a very vertical model business in that they do the stuff in-house.

Archicore

Randomised, I recognize you’re holding a position for the sake of argument. Apologies for not picking up on that earlier. 

I completely agree with you drawing a parallel between the field and the classroom, and I agree with the argument. It would be ridiculous to except a principle to do everything in an office. However, counter to that, I would say they should know how to do 80% of everything, even if they don’t know the details. 

My assumption of the services Erf is providing revolves around the notion that he would be sent a 3d model and send back a full render. I am not quite sure what input is given from the student, in which case that changes the scenario slightly. Little to no student input is obviously a bad thing, however if the point of the service is just to have somebody else doing all the nitty gritty while you set up the scene, I agree that it isn’t quite so bad. This all depends on how much input the student has, what the assignment is asking for, and whether the student is expected to do the render work. Having someone type out an essay while you’re reciting it from memory is one thing. Hiring someone to do all the research, typing, and formatting is another. Obviously, I might be wrong here. I’ve never known of anyone to pay for or render these services, so I’m not quite sure on the business model. All renders done in the firm I work for are down by two or three people, including me. The focus is on quick turnaround and communicating materials/design. A professional V-Ray render would be overkill for this. 

During my education, rendering was a method to view the building from a human perspective. Most renders from myself and my classmates were just a step above screencaps. The professors did not request, nor expect presentation renders.

merrycornaro

jcarch you call Erf Ami's thing a crappy business model but seriously I wonder if you could understand he is smart as hell and you have a crappy brain!!!!!!! HE IS EVEN HELPING STUDENTS!! People like him helped me build a kick ass portfolio and I respect what hes doing because I am now working and i dont have to render anyways because architecture is not about rendering!

Non Sequitur

your portfolio is a fraud as it is not a proper representation of your skills. You're right that rendering is not the main point of school, but understanding your tools and having a handle on expressing ideas is. Outsourcing just to keep up with your neighbours and loosing all control is very bad. Kids these days....

merrycornaro

My portfolio is my building designs which have to do with compositions, site analysis, form generation, philosophy of architecture. Simply architecture. NOT RENDERINGS!!! My portfolio is not a fraud, in fact, you are a fraud. I am working so that means I know what I am supposed to. I just wasn't good at rendering and diagrams (their design) and such things. In order for companies to pay attention to my work, I needed catchy renders that show my design in the best way to go and learn architecture and what it means. Frank Gehry could barely do any of such bullshit he can't even make a physical model but he is an architect and you are not.

RickB-Astoria

You're not good enough to scribble and make diagrams? BTW: Non Sequiture.... you know... I'll leave it to him to surprise you.

Non Sequitur

Merry, but I am an architect and rather well advanced in my career hence the comfort on this subject. Kids today should not have to default to outsourcing simply because something is too difficult, or whatever reason you want to tell yourself. Fraud you remain. 

Good morning Ricky. Coincidentally, I was having the very same discussion with a fellow architect earlier this evening.

RickB-Astoria

Amazing isn't it... N.S.

Whatever it takes, sweetie.

Nov 7, 18 11:09 am
jcarch

1. If you think you're going to graduate, get a job, and be the ideas guy while others make pretty renderings, complete CD's, etc. of your designs, I've got bad news for you.  You're going to start off doing renderings, CAD, making models, of other peoples designs.  In time you'll be designing, but if you don't have those skills because you outsourced those tasks in school, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

2. Architect's communicate ideas through drawings/models.  That could be a plan or a rendering, a cardboard model or a VR walk through.  And people get good at something by doing it over and over and over.  If you're not honing your skills presenting your work, then you won't be good at it.  If you're not good at it, you won't convince your boss, colleague, or client that your idea is the right idea.  You will shortly be wondering why you're doing bathroom RCP's 8 hours a day while the person next to you is designing.

3. There's the dishonesty part.  If you were to argue that you were going to hire Erf Ami to do your rendering/boards, and you would tell your professor and reviewers what you'd done, I'd be fine with it (though you're short changing yourself...see nos. 1 & 2 above).  But I think we're all talking about presenting someone else's work as your own.  That's a big no-no in school or at work.

4. If you're saying "my professor requires 3 shiny renderings, but that's stupid," that's fine.  Maybe your project is better represented w/ charcoal sketches, or as a clay model, so do that instead.  Often the best drawings I see are the simple ones.  In part because they stand out from the sea of crappy renderings on everyone's boards.  But that's not what you're saying.  You're saying you can't be bothered.

5. Design is an iterative process.  You do something, look at it, and then change it, keeping the good parts, fixing the bad parts.  And design frequently doesn't go in a straight line.  Things you think will be great end up sucking.  Minor changes unexpectedly end up vastly improving things or take you in an totally new direction.  How do we know if our work is good or bad?  We make 2d/3d representations of them. If you're just doing some renderings the day of your final review, you're doing it wrong.  You learn as much from a rendering as from a plan, section, or model.  You just have to produce them early enough in your design process that they're design drawings, not presentations drawings.  Yes, you add some bells and whistles for the big presentation, but you should be looking as self-critically at a rendering as you do at a section.

Other than that, it's a great idea.

Nov 7, 18 11:35 am
Dangermouse

fwiw you can absolutely find offices that let you design from day one, but those tend to be dysfunctional bordering on chaotic, with a burnout culture and darwinian hierarchy of fresh blood fighting for attention of the PM/owner.

jcarch are you serious??? I am a living proof that you are wrong and people made me renders back in school and im working and getting paid!!! Dishonesty?? this is architecture we studied not rendering techniques or diagram making... architects can communicate even through sketches. what are you even talking about even if u are talking about communicating with customers we communicate through saving customers money always! nobody cares about your renderings and diagrams and floorplans most of them cant even understand floorplans

Non Sequitur

Lazy student you are Sara.

merrycornaro

Non Sequitur I also bought renders back in school and I work now too!! I wanna know if really why do all of you think that it is wrong? I know so many students who outsource their graphics stuff

Non Sequitur

See my response to your post above... I'm loosing track of these, so I don't want to confuse or water the point down but essentially this: Students don't get to understand the value of craft and process. Perhaps you don't care, fine, but someone might hire you based on the quality of the images you clearly can't reproduce. I see it as fraud. It's not 100% your work so unless you clearly credit who ever did the renderings, I'd significantly discount your abilities (and problem solving skills). I see this type of fluff all the time in recent grad applicants. Sure, shiny images impress the white-haired principles but not those who have to manage project deliverable and staff work.

RickB-Astoria

Sara, you went to AAU. They do in fact teach or more properly said.... instructed on rendering. It might not be a class dedicated to rendering but it could be embedded components of several courses providing the skills to render. Rendering isn't just computer based rendering. I know the history of computer rendering. I was working with the technology when they first started to become a thing with personal computers with computer such as the Commodore Amiga line of personal computers. Before computers were used for rendering, the traditional methods which are still used and taught are traditional methods of "architectural rendering" also called "architectural illustration". Traditional methods includes: watercolor, pen & ink, acrylic, color pencils, and markers and in some cases, oil based paint, and sometimes other traditional art mediums for illustrating. While I can serve to do more watercolor work and illustration myself some more but nonetheless I respect these methods as valid. With time and not being lazy, I probably could do traditional rendering well enough to hold my own even in this age of computer rendering which I also use. Here's the thing, in reality, I don't need to be that photorealistic to sell the idea. I can do well enough with just watercolor.

RickB-Astoria

Thank you all for reinforcing my arguments above. Don't need to read through them all. I may have selectively emphasized certain issues more on some of my responses. There is a lot more in the long term effects of cheating because it is cheating yourself to cheat that has long term ramifications. 


Nov 7, 18 1:40 pm
Non Sequitur

Ricky, had the OP addressed his "services" as nothing more than a render farm, I believe he would get student interest. I certainly used one back in my undergrad days, circa 2003, as my university had an advance computing department with the required structure. This only served to pump out images with the materials, lights, shapes, etc that I set. This is not cheating since authorship is 100% retained. The OP is not suggesting this and is significantly dismissing the value of learning the tools we use and artistic expression.

RickB-Astoria

Yeah... As I stated (and possibly overlooked in the long responses) is there are limited situations where it would be acceptable. The way you did it would be appropriate in my opinion as some students.

merrycornaro

RickB-Astoria who said that we are all reinforcing your false argument??? I am saying it out loud here I bought renders in college come and find me!!!!

RickB-Astoria

merrycorholio, go read a book. You might actually learn something.

merrycornaro

which book do you recommend?

RickB-Astoria

There are others I can recommend that are more contemporary but you may have to purchase or go to a library to find which you might not have a copy at your local library.

RickB-Astoria

Here's a title: 

Color Drawing: Design Drawing Skills and Techniques for Architects, Landscape Architects, and Interior Designers


RickB-Astoria

Anyway,more readings in PDF form available for free:

Sketching & Rendering in Pencil


RickB-Astoria
BulgarBlogger

Dude- seriously. Who do you think you are as a student to be outsourcing work? If it is your paradigm, then that's sad. I have never heard of students outsourcing anything!

Nov 7, 18 1:42 pm
RickB-Astoria

I've heard of it but they usually use other terms.... like cheating or academic dishonesty.

Threesleeve

There are a plethora of websites where parents can (and regularly do) hire freelance "tutors" to complete (not help with, but do) their 6th-graders' homework.  Obviously some of those children are going to grow up into college and grad students who do not do their own homework and outsource it.

When I was in architecture school, pre-internet, it was less likely that classmates were hiring strangers to write their papers, build their models, and do their renderings.  But I sure knew a slew of them who had a spouse or significant other at home who was doing a large share of the "support work".  Some kept that behind the scenes, while others were very blatant about it, regularly bringing the spouses to the studio, and even having the spouses pin up the presentation before the crits.  It's also the accepted norm at some schools that underclassmen will volunteer to do grunt work - printing, pocheing, model assembly - for upper year students - typically the thinking is that if they help this year they'll make connections from those who will be in the work world sooner, learn things to help in their own projects next year, and they'll be repaid in help from their own underlings.  In that setting who says where the line is drawn between helping with rote tasks, which is expected, vs. an unfair advantage that would constitute cheating?

Nov 7, 18 2:11 pm
RickB-Astoria

That is always at the determination by the academic institutions faculty and staff to ascertain what is the threshold between what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. I think help in rote tasks is relatively acceptable whereas the line can be clearly crossed. If the student or students whose assignment it is does less than 50% of the work involved, it can look awfully suspicious of academic dishonesty.

JonathanLivingston

Managing tasks that you don't know how to do yourself seems to be a common problem in this industry.  This whole outsourcing school work aside. I'm constantly taken aback by the number of people who direct others to do what they do not know how to do themselves. I guess that's just a part of making your way in this complex world. Gone are the times of the sole practitioner, the master builder and the craftsmen. It's hot air and cash that gets things done now. I think I read to much Emerson in my liberal undergrad days. 

Nov 7, 18 2:48 pm
sara_lucey

Why cant some of you guys see Erf Ami being more successful/productive than most of you here? Not only that, but what he says he's doing is very helpful to so many. Why are you not even answering his very straight forward question???

To answer your question:

I am from San Francisco California and in its been almost 3 yrs since i graduated, back in school days (Academy of Art San Fransisco) some students (including myself) used to outsource renders in some occasions. To let everyone know I am currently working in WRNS Studio in San Francisco which is probably one of the best here in States so i am sure that outsourcing renders (or diagrams) never caused me or anyone of my friends no problems. Of course that even in school no body caught us. I dont know why they keep on bringing cheating up but all their points are invalid. 

Rendering is not even a course in most universities around the world. They never taught us rendering it was always something that students were either supposed to figure it out by themselves or they'd suck at it till the senior showcase. they never TAUGHT us how to do diagrams it is just a talent that some have. 

The price we used to pay back then was charged in two ways 1. hourly 2. per render

Each render used to cost somewhere between 70 to 90 usd and diagrams always depended on the style and detail but it was around the same price or maybe around 50$

Erf Ami do not listen to ignorant people here. i think they are two types of them here: 1. the ones who graduatde with a degree and thought that they'll be so important in the field and they never succeed and 2. some students who think that they are gonna make it by following the university rules and they are gonna see that they will not succeed either.

Nov 7, 18 10:37 pm
RickB-Astoria

Sara, some students have cheated and done so without getting caught or punished. After all, that is what Donald Trump has done throughout his schooling and his life. For your information, since it was 3 years ago when you graduated, you should be very careful about saying this stuff on a public forum. The Academy of Arts University could open up an investigation regarding academic dishonesty. These can result in your degree being revoked even after graduation. People have had their degrees revoked for plagiarism. The rendering may be more difficult to prove but your own statement here can be detrimental to you. If I were you, I would be very cautious. 

BTW: Rendering isn't a course per se. It can be embedded in one or more courses. They don't always label the course as "rendering". They may be labeled as watercolor painting or Maya or any number of ways to label the class. In some cases, rendering is taught in the course of teaching multiple courses. Haven't you taken Art drawing class? That's rendering. Haven't you been taught to look at 2d plans to create a 3d drawing? That's rendering. When they teach you to do still life rendering and learning to do shading and coloring... that's rendering. That's doing it the old fashion way. When they teach computer rendering, it is usually taught in a sequence of courses where you learn how to use the software like Revit or Archicad. 

Academy of Arts has a course in Construction sketching which is a rendering. It is also called illustrating or sketching or drawing or a variety of names. There is different methods of rendering that is conducive for quick and dirty on the fly work and those for presentation. There is also ARH 110, FND113, ARH 170, ARH180, ARH 230, ARH 390. Each of those courses (and others) teaches the work of rendering. It might not be just one single course but a component of several courses.

Yeah.... they do teach about rendering. 


merrycornaro

RickB-Astoria STOP YOUR INVALID WORDS PLEASSSSE you talk about getting caught and everything every single minute. What are you saying do you even understand it yourself? How is Sara Lucey going to get caught? Lets say the Academy of Art sees this post! How are they going to know that this Sara is the same Sara?? What are you talking about?? There are no proofs to find out that a render has been outsourced as much as there is no way Sara is not going to get caught now because you still cannot find any logical proof. What are you saying Rick? Are you 80 years old??? Erf Ami even said he gives the whole rights to the student how are you gonna know that the student cheated? What is your problem do you even have a job???

RickB-Astoria

In case you took the M.Arch Track 2, ARH 650, ARH 651, ARH 652 & 653, ARH 654 to name a few. Yeah, they were instructing you on these things but this is college for crying out loud.... it is YOUR job to learn and study and even figure shit out. They are called instructors or professors not teachers when it comes to college. They aren't there to hold your hand.

Considering Academy of Arts University has an online degree program for architecture, it is generally less likely to detect if you violate the rules or others finding out considering you could be living in a remote part of the world and somehow have an internet connection and none of your class mates are within 1,000 miles from you. That can be a part of the reality of things. 


Non Sequitur

this is so incredibly stupid. Some wanker creates a new profile just to "defend" lazy students. I'd see right through this if you worked in the real world.

merrycornaro

RickB-Astoria you really have to stop you don't make sense

Non Sequitur

correction, it appears that two people just popped out of nowhere to defend this shit. Value of craft is gone folks.

RickB-Astoria

"RickB-Astoria STOP YOUR INVALID WORDS PLEASSSSE you talk about getting caught and everything every single minute. What are you saying do you even understand it yourself? How is Sara Lucey going to get caught? Lets say the Academy of Art sees this post! How are they going to know that this Sara is the same Sara?? What are you talking about?? There are no proofs to find out that a render has been outsourced as much as there is no way Sara is not going to get caught now because you still cannot find any logical proof. What are you saying Rick? Are you 80 years old??? Erf Ami even said he gives the whole rights to the student how are you gonna know that the student cheated? What is your problem do you even have a job???" 

How about learn to write English and speak English. She identified herself. AAU has a record of students who graduated 3 years ago. She indicated that she works at WRNS. There is a profiles working for WRNS. Probably, only one of the employees would even had graduated from AAU and then only one of them being possibly employed especially with a graduation of 3 years ago. Deduction my dear merrycornaro.

FYI: I run my own business in designing buildings.

RickB-Astoria

Sara Lucey, https://www.academyart.edu/policies/

Excerpt:

Academic Honesty

The Academy of Art University community, in order to fulfill its purposes, must maintain high standards of academic honesty and model clear standards of professional behavior for its students. All members of the Academy of Art University community are expected to exhibit honesty in their academic work. The principle of academic honesty is understood to include the writing of papers, reports, quizzes, and examinations, as well as the creation of art and design work. Students are expected to participate fully in their academic studies by contributing their own ideas and understanding to each assignment. All material submitted for credit must be original work created for a specific assignment. Students may not resubmit work created for previous or concurrent courses taken at Academy of Art University or any other institution unless permission is given by the instructor or department.

Academy of Art University addresses violations of this academic honesty policy on an individual basis. Academic honesty violations may be grounds for suspension or dismissal.

Plagiarism

All art and design work, and all written work, must be the original work of the student. Any quotations, paraphrases, or direct appropriation of imagery or ideas from source material must be properly cited according to university, departmental, and/or instructor policy.

Any student who plagiarizes will receive a grade of “F” for that assignment, with no opportunity to do the assignment again. All plagiarism offenses will be reported to the Department Director and to the Educational Services Office and a notation will be indicated on the student’s transcript.

Plagiarism is a violation of the Academy of Art University’s Academic Honesty Policy and may be grounds for suspension or dismissal from Academy of Art University. This policy constitutes an official warning to each student.

Cheating

Cheating is defined as accepting or giving aid to another during a written exam or for a written report unless authorized by the instructor, or accepting or giving aid to another for an individual studio project unless authorized by the instructor. This includes representing another person’s work, as one’s own, or buying or selling written or visual work to be turned in for a class.

Cheating also includes dependence on sources other than those specifically authorized by the instructor; possession of tests or other materials before such materials have been distributed by the instructor, unless prior permission is granted; failing to abide by the instructions of the instructor with respect to test-taking procedures; influencing or attempting to influence any University official, faculty member or employee responsible for processing grades, evaluating students or for maintaining academic records through the use of bribery, threats, or any other means of coercion in order to affect a student’s grade or evaluation; alteration or misuse of University documents pertaining to academic records.

Interpretations of Regulations

Disciplinary regulations at Academy of Art University are set forth in writing in order to give students general notice of prohibited conduct. The regulations should be read broadly and are not designed to define misconduct in exhaustive terms.


merrycornaro

Okay you run your own business.

Dangermouse

"they never TAUGHT us how to do diagrams it is just a talent that some have. "

SneakyPete

"WRNS Studio in San Francisco which is probably one of the best here in States"


GO ON...

RickB-Astoria

WRNS being one of the best coming from an employee of it. Not exactly an independent assessment. Even with an independent assessment voting the firm as one of the best or best or whatever is only a vote of confidence of the firm not the individual. Consider this, ARCHITECT magazine in 2013 voted it #1 firm in the U.S. However, one has to look at the fact that ARCHITECT magazine has a tendency of not voting firms that work in residential. It is also politicized by those in the AIA and what they want to promote. It's more a promotional gig than I can assess as anything really objective. As a building designer, I probably not show up on the radar as with a lot of architects. Who cares. When it was voted #1, it was in 2013... BEFORE sara's employment with them. I say, who gives a shit. I care more about what my clients thinks about my project and outcome than I care about a magazine's promotion of my magazine.

Dangermouse

i feel bad for whoever hires WRNS and gets "professionals" who are both too lazy to teach themselves AND stupid enough to brag about it in public. i don't expect AAU to churn out pritzker winners or anything but goddamn.

RickB-Astoria

I think most AAU graduates are respectable but every so often there are students like this that graduates from just about all the schools. I don't change my opinion of AAU or any institution for the exceptional rotten apples in the bunch.

merrycornaro

Erf Ami the price range in Italy - what students pay depends on the render but normally around 100 euros

I am not sure about diagrams and layout but i am sure that they are being outsourced a lot of the time

Nov 7, 18 11:24 pm
Non Sequitur

Learn to do your own and take pride in owning your work.

merrycornaro

ok

Steeplechase

I never realized drawing a diagram is so difficult. Is putting on pants hard too?

Nov 8, 18 12:18 am
merrycornaro

putting pants could be hard for some girls, if they are not american perhaps latina?

randomised

I personally don't put that much value (any more) in being the one that makes these amazing visuals for a project. It is a skill that is being outsourced in the real world all the time. If students don't have the skills to make good looking renderings, so what? Good for them, they won't be pigeonholed in an office afterwards.


And what about the work-life balance? It is impossible to do everything at a high standard as a student in 40hrs a week these days, what about their mental health? Unless that model changes students will be looking for shortcuts just to get things done.


And we can slam the frauds that provide the students with that service or we can try to do something about the system that makes these kinds of businesses possible to exist in the first place. I personally never felt the need to outsource my work, but if I had to choose between a nervous breakdown and outsourcing a stupid render, I'd know what to do.

Nov 8, 18 2:44 am
RickB-Astoria

randomised, architecture school is not a 40 hrs a week thing. C grade students do 40 hours a week. B students invests between 50-60 hours a week. A students invests about 70-80 hours a week. You know the basic formula of 2 hours outside of class for every lecture or credit hour in class for a C grade. B students typically invests around 3 hours outside of class for every hour in class. A students typically invests around 4 hours outside of class. It is based on statistical averages and is still relatively true even for architecture school which might be a little more in some cases. It is true that individual students will vary along this spectrum. Sometimes they grasp some concepts better and perform well without requiring as much time and there are times when they struggle but when you average things out for most students they usually will perform along the equation. When you have to maintain a 3.0+ GPA, you will typically have to perform at about 60+ hours a week commitment to class work. It is also reflective somewhat to what is expected to be committed by high quality employees who puts the time in to get things done with quality. When you consider that many positions are in fact on a salary basis, a lot of employees are expected to be dedicating a traditional honest day's work which is 12 hours a day. That's usually on the order of 8AM to 8PM. Sometimes, 8AM to 6 or 7PM and Saturdays. In any case, the hours would ride in at about 50-60 hours a week which is not uncommon. The reason is architecture is not a job. It is a way of life and a career not a weekend gig. Some people have chosen to make architecture a hobby of sorts to them.... a gig. God bless them. However, there are those of us who makes it our living. When you either climb the ladder to Principal or you set course to establish your own firm, you are dedicating yourself to the business and what it does. While your role might then be more business administration than designing, you are nonetheless likely to be actively involved and this requires a sort of round the clock commitment. As they sort of say... no rest for the wicked. There is kind of no rest for the firm owners. You wonder why the white hairs sara and merrycanaro. While it is true that you may outsource in rendering but businesses aren't exactly held to any sort of academic code of conduct or ethics other than the licensing laws and any ethics of associations you may choose to belong to BUT students already agree to the academic student code of conduct requirements by admission and enrollment. Students don't have to be masters of the craft of rendering. They learn how to do it and to gain basic competency and how to use the tools to communicate visually. Whether you do it actively in professional practice is besides the point. So what. You learn the skills so if you every had to do it whether as a task assigned to you by an employer, you can at least do it.

randomised

If it can't be done properly in 40hrs, there's something wrong. Expecting students or architects to work 60-80 hrs a week is what is causing serious mental and physical health issues, the stress alone these kids are under is tremendous. Sure we shouldn't allow outsourcing, but if nothing will be done about the underlying issues they will find ways to keep on doing it. Saying it is a way of life, and either suck it up or get the fuck out, this kind of pride in exhausting yourself, going until the edge or over the edge just doesn't resonate with today's kids and is totally counterproductive in a wider perspective. Times have changed, accepting unacceptable conditions and working yourself to exhaustion is nothing to be proud of, it is stupid. They want to make a difference and have a life too, shouldn't be too much to ask in 2018.

RickB-Astoria

randomised, students take longer to get stuff done because they have to learn. Yes, the work can be done in 40 hours but that's what a C grade is.... generally passing but many architecture programs expects more from students and that they expect above average quality and hence a B grade. Consider this for a moment, you go to class, you spend about 15 hours a week in class. Then you work 3 hours for each of the 15 credits (1 lecture hour per credit hour approx.) and therefore you spend about 45 HOURS outside of class. In work, you would be expected to already have learned the knowledge and skills for the job position. If you have to learn more, you would do this on your own time outside of your 8AM to 5PM working hours to improve or expand your knowledge and skills. To be frankly honest, a lot of the kids have little work ethics because they had been pampered. Time hasn't changed. Only how much we are willing to pamper. China is kicking our asses in the U.S. because they work longer hours and are more productive. They are efficient. They don't charge as much and they can match our quality of work for less money. Construction has been traditionally a Sunrise to sunset type of work because hours because you worked in daylight hours for optimal work. If we only do 9AM to 5PM or 8AM to Noon... 1PM to 5PM, effectively we are only getting 4 to 6 hours of actual work done and too much is taken up in setting up for the day and closing out. Honest construction work day was typically 10 to 12 HOURS a day. This way, there was actually 8 productive hours each work day and the rest is clean up before leaving and prepping up for the day's work. Haven't you read "1 Corinthians 13:11

RickB-Astoria

As you know, my business is predominately in residential and light commercial. As such, residential projects are a predominate are of my business. My business is open Monday through Saturday. Saturdays are usually days for meeting clients and getting some work not done on Friday as needed to get things done by any Monday deadlines. Sundays are not usually open but I may work on Sundays to meet deadlines but usually not open for phone calls or meeting up with clients. As for hours, they may span the 7am to 6pm hours for client visitation. Occassionally, I may work past 6pm. Sometimes that is because I may have to go to city planning or design review meetings or whatever. It is said that God worked 6 days and created the universe, earth, and all creation and rested on the 7th day. For me, Sunday is a resting day except during crunch time when I need to meet a deadline on a Monday.

RickB-Astoria

As for younger kids, they want big pay and little work effort to get it. That's not how it ever was. It wasn't until the industrial revolution (of Britain) when people starting working 8 hour work days. This made sense for real labor work where working more than 8 hours would result in serious fatigue that is literally a health risk manner but we aren't really working like coal miners and carpenters. We are sitting on our butts all day more or less. In the U.S., it was an advent of the late 19th century and early 20th century movements and overtime requirements for working over 8 hours was primarily for physically laborious jobs. In Federal and in various states, architecture jobs and various other white collar kind of jobs are exempt from overtime under certain conditions.

RickB-Astoria

Almost all of them want to be paid well and not have to work. Sure, don't we all want that. Sure, we would all love to earn enough money that we don't have to work. Robots do all the labor. We get paid and enjoy the benefits off the backs of our new slaves... the robots. However, if you were an employee, how are YOU going to produce same quality and quantity of work in 8 hours as you would in 12 hours without slowing down project schedule? We don't have unilateral control over schedule of work to be done. That's a reality of real life.

Non Sequitur

rando, I treated all my studios as full time jobs. Worked 40hrs outside of class time and kept a part time job (first retail at 20ish hr/week, then a real office job) for the entirety of my 5y undergrad. I also hand rendered 6 of my 7 studio projects and built wood models, all of which are super more time consuming than digital renderings. The point is it can be done with a little self-management. Taking a shortcut works against this... and honestly, making slick renderings is not terribly hard or time consuming anyways since, as RickyB points out, robots do the work. The effort lies in learning how to use the tools and I cannot condone anyone who voluntarily refuses to learn any aspect of the profession. Oh, I just don't know math, or building science, or how to cook dinner.  I'll just get someone else to do it.  Lazy lazy lazy.


BulgarBlogger

So what portion of your 7am-6pm Monday-Saturday is spent posting lengthy replies to Archinect comments? Not very efficient use of time. Sounds pretty lonely in Oregon too...

RickB-Astoria

BulgarBlogger, sometimes it is.

RickB-Astoria

"rando, I treated all my studios as full time jobs. Worked 40hrs outside of class time and kept a part time job (first retail at 20ish hr/week, then a real office job) for the entirety of my 5y undergrad. I also hand rendered 6 of my 7 studio projects and built wood models, all of which are super more time consuming than digital renderings. The point is it can be done with a little self-management. Taking a shortcut works against this... and honestly, making slick renderings is not terribly hard or time consuming anyways since, as RickyB points out, robots do the work. The effort lies in learning how to use the tools and I cannot condone anyone who voluntarily refuses to learn any aspect of the profession. Oh, I just don't know math, or building science, or how to cook dinner. I'll just get someone else to do it. Lazy lazy lazy." LOL.... maybe not robots yet for rendering but it isn't that far fetch scientifically. The technical mean of technology makes it possible but hey someone has to write the software systems of the robot, the AI, etc. However, that might not be the student. Any hoot, yes, one can manage their time better and keep the hours under control but there is still a good commitment of time to be spent to do quality work and architecture schools wants to keep students who can keep up the A and B (above average work) and those who only do average quality (C grade) or lower gets booted from the program for not meeting or keeping their grades up. Most undergrads maintains that 3.0 or higher GPA as that is customary requirement for all GRAD school student and they basically have both undergrad B.Arch and professional M.Arch students doing the same work and held to the same standards. This is not unusual in the U.S. There are variation from program to program, school to school. AAU is one of the more relaxed programs when it comes to GPA requirements.

randomised

Rick, it doesn't work like that any more. Young people are burning out left and right because the old ways don't really translate well into this new world that is always "on" and connected. If there are no real solutions found besides: suck it up and do the work like the rest of us fools, an entire generation will simply check out. Forcing them to do everything by themselves in school while the profession is supposed to be a collaborative team effort, how's that preparing them for the job ahead? Sure you need to know the basics in order to judge results and instruct people etc., but my bosses don't know how to use computer software to make drawings or renders, they outsourced that stuff to their employees. 

You're talking about project schedules, well maybe those schedules are wrong and deadlines too tight when they are not able to be met within normal working hours. Would the world burn down if those arbitrary deadlines are pushed back a little? If it allows people to have a decent life-work balance I'm all for it. And if it allows students to have the time to do those renders themselves instead of outsourcing them to meet their presentation deadlines, great! 

High stress hormone levels, from working well into the night and from lack of sleep or pressure to meet deadlines is causing brain damage, it is simply irresponsible practice. Why compete in that race to the bottom? If I am not allowed to work 4 days a week at a job I simply don't take the job. I'm typing this at home while my kid is napping in the other room after we just played football in the park for an hour or so. 

There's more to life than work and this generation of students apparently understands and arranges the assistance they sometimes need when schools don't give them the time to do it themselves.

Nov 8, 18 6:13 am
Non Sequitur

So you’re advocating for supporting entire graduating classes who don’t understand time management? No thank you. The studio can always be done treating it as a full time 40hr week if the student is reasonably intelligent with their process. I just don’t buy, respectfully, any of what you’re saying. I want to see grads who’ve managed to solve their design problems and learned the craft along the way through trial and error rather than someone who needed an easy out. Why stop at the final images if the design idea is all that matters, as the merry wanker claims? Why not take an afternoon, move some blocks around and hand off your program brief and some napkin sketches to an Indian CGI slave farm? Easy peasy, now we’re my degree, license, and 100k salary? Because, architecture school is so thought, we’re equal or better than lawyers and doctors.

archinet

If a student cannot manage their time they seem lazy or not the brightest. I am sorry I never pulled an all nighter as an arch student. I planned my layout of my boards at least a week in advance in indesign and put my drawings finished or not inside. Also as a student having corporate looking renderings does not seem like a particularly smart thing to do. I expect my students to have some concept to how they communicate their architectural ideas. So even if they had corporate flashy renders does not preclude the project is any good- whats worse it shows work they cannot do in their portfolio. Seems like a waste of money for nothing.

Non Sequitur

*where. Stupid phone.

RickB-Astoria

There is a general reason why students need to commit like 60+ hours a week to do what typically takes about 30-40 hours a week to do as an relatively inexperienced employee would take. Part of the 60 hours is the ~15 hours give or take of instruction/lectures from the instructor or professor. Then there is the part where the student has to learn stuff and learn skills. When they graduate, they would not have the 15 or so hours of instructor lecturing but they still have inefficiency. When you learn stuff and practice it, you begin to do those things faster and more efficient. As it was said, there is the trial and errors and time spent learning how to do things. The 60+ hours is a fair amount of time a student spends in-class and out of class to their classes and the assignments for a respectable student and respectable future employee. Again, they don't begin to be really good and efficient until they have learned, practiced what they learned, and gain confidence in themselves sufficiently enough that they make better decisions more efficiently. This takes time.

Non Sequitur

Hey Ricky, we're on the same side of this glorious horse beating. Is that an Archinect first? Perhaps it is, but I'm too stressed and fragile to think about other examples so I'll ask some random worker in a 3rd world country to set up a few graphs and spread sheets, based on the research they will do, and get back to you.

RickB-Astoria

"Young people are burning out left and right because the old ways don't really translate well into this new world that is always "on" and connected." 

That is because they don't know how to work. They burn out because they aren't dedicated. Architecture never was for everyone. There are too many who wants the title and wants the degree and everything without putting effort. They think being an architect is easy. They get this false impression somehow because they don't see what it really takes. I'll tell you this much, people think they can cut it as being in the software development business. They think they can cut it creating video games and what not. What they don't get is it isn't as easy that easy. There is a lot of work involved. Although not necessarily a lot of physical labor type work but it is a lot of work and to make it... it is a lot of commitment. It is not a cake walk. Architecture is no less challenging. Different but at least just as challenging. 

If architecture is right for you, what is it to you spending WHATEVER it takes doing what you love doing. If it is the right field for you, you'd commit whatever you need and enjoy the work you do. There are far too many who gets into architecture education but don't have the burning passion for designing buildings that they are willing to spend the time it takes to do great quality work. Sometimes, you get the work done in a 9 to 5 time frame. Sometimes, you get it done faster. Those truly committed are thinking architecture in a sort of 24/7 basis. When I say it is a way of life, it kind of is. You're thinking architecture and mulling over many different iterations of designs in your head and picturing them all the time more or less. It isn't just happening from when you clock in and stops when you clock out. You know you are an architect when you are staring at architecture and mulling over the beauty of mullions and moldings at the ceiling when you are dating a woman and your attention is on the architectural elements and not the elements of the woman.

RickB-Astoria

"Hey Ricky, we're on the same side of this glorious horse beating. Is that an Archinect first? Perhaps it is, but I'm too stressed and fragile to think about other examples so I'll ask some random worker in a 3rd world country to set up a few graphs and spread sheets, based on the research they will do, and get back to you." 

Haha, yeah. Sure. I hear ya. I'll need to take a break from the horse beating to. It has a habit of somehow f---ing up sleep. (sometimes)


RickB-Astoria

"You're talking about project schedules, well maybe those schedules are wrong and deadlines too tight when they are not able to be met within normal working hours. Would the world burn down if those arbitrary deadlines are pushed back a little? If it allows people to have a decent life-work balance I'm all for it. And if it allows students to have the time to do those renders themselves instead of outsourcing them to meet their presentation deadlines, great! " 

You know that project schedules are partly determined by the client. Sometimes you have to meet their hard scheduled dates or that which is set forth by the client's PM that is managing the whole schedule. While in my work, I have more flexibility because I may not have a "client PM" to deal with but I have the client. Sometimes, you enter a project and you may come across situations that you can't determine from the surface level reconnaissance. Yes, I deal with existing and historic homes which may have all kinds of concealed problems you can't predict what is all involved. These get a bit ugly real quick. You may have determined hard scheduled dates the client isn't going to budge on because they have their reasons so you have to kick in to overdrive so to speak and work long days. It isn't that simple in life.

RickB-Astoria

"High stress hormone levels, from working well into the night and from lack of sleep or pressure to meet deadlines is causing brain damage, it is simply irresponsible practice. Why compete in that race to the bottom? If I am not allowed to work 4 days a week at a job I simply don't take the job. I'm typing this at home while my kid is napping in the other room after we just played football in the park for an hour or so. 

There's more to life than work and this generation of students apparently understands and arranges the assistance they sometimes need when schools don't give them the time to do it themselves." 

Netherlands have a pretty short work week and the work hours per week and day are shorter. U.S. work week is typically about 35 to 60 hours a week. Full-time workers in the U.S. typically averages 47 to 48 hours work weeks from any given position. Some work more hours between two or more jobs. Some work 60 hours a week in certain jobs which are often salary jobs because salary workers are generally expected to work 40 to 60 or more hours a week on their flat rate salary. The full-time average of around 47 hours a week would be because of averaging in all those wage workers working precisely 35 to 40 hours a week full time jobs. People in the U.S. are generally not all that stressed for working their full-time. Their stress stems from a myriad of other issues. Given the nature of the working environment of the U.S., schedules are built around the presumption of working 5 days a week or even 6 days a week. Regular wage employees in most occupations and jobs in general are 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 40 hours. Architecture field in the U.S. is typically more demanding than a job as an office receptionist for a small office working 8am to 5pm with noon hour off for lunch or 9am to 5pm. This is not unusual.

We have a more demanding work week. We compete with countries like China. The Netherlands pays people what is equivalent to $47,000 at around 27-34 hours a week. That's considered decent pay in the U.S. for wage workers working less than full-time work week.

randomised

@NS

So you’re advocating for supporting entire graduating classes who don’t understand time management?

No I am not. But if entire graduating classes are having difficulty getting things done, maybe there’s simply too much to be done in too short a time frame.

The studio can always be done treating it as a full time 40hr week if the student is reasonably intelligent with their process.

I want to see grads who’ve managed to solve their design problems and learned the craft along the way through trial and error rather than someone who needed an easy out.

Me too.

Why stop at the final images if the design idea is all that matters, as the merry wanker claims? Why not take an afternoon, move some blocks around and hand off your program brief and some napkin sketches to an Indian CGI slave farm? Easy peasy, now we’re my degree, license, and 100k salary?

Because you’ll never pass like that and you know it. Architecture school is not about being able to make fancy CGI’s, not at all, and you know it all too well.

Because, architecture school is so thought, we’re equal or better than lawyers and doctors. 

It is tough, yes and all-consuming at times yes. And of course we’re better than lawyers or doctors, otherwise I would have studied one of those ;)


Archicore

I agree with both sides of this argument. On one hand, I think it’s important for students to learn the basics and do their own work. Ethically, it’s a more valid position. On the other hand, I think it’s important to recognize that hours worked does not correlate to success. I heard of an underclassman who took Adderall and didn’t sleep for 2 straight days before the crit. His work was, at best, slightly above his classmates. And that absolutely was not healthy.

One of the largest things I learnt in architecture school was, in fact, time management. I realized early on how important it was to find an effective workflow and streamline it. To me, the quantity of hours worked means nothing if you spend half of it hand drawing lines for each plank of wood in AutoCAD, instead of just using a hatch. The pride that people seem to place on how many hours they worked just doesn’t make sense to me. 

Overall the main point is, just do your work. It’s school. Spend the time THERE to learn something so you don’t have to do it after 8 hours in an office all day, because that sucks. If rendering is stressful for you, create a process that works, and stick to it. Use something quicker like Lumion, Enscape, etc. Yeah, it won’t be corporate render slave production quality, but it’ll do the job it has to do for the project. 

In terms of work ethic, I’m on the fence on that too. I don’t believe working 40 or more hours a week is healthy, there’s a bit of science to back this up too. If I could find an office willing to let me work four days a week, I’d absolutely take them up on that offer. If you enjoy being in the office and working, you are more than welcome to it. However, it still reminds me of the kid in high school who raises their hand to tell the teacher they forgot to assign homework. It’s great if you want to spend all your time at work, but why should everyone else have to? 

There are 168 hours in a week. Typical hours are at 40, average commute is 4.5 hours a week (52 minutes over 5 days). Recommended sleep is 56 hours weekly for the average adult. We are spending 60% of our lives at work, going to and from work, or asleep. To me, this is ridiculous. I haven’t even counted in any of the daily chores we all have to do. If we really take a step back and look at it, does it seem fair to have to spend 60% of our lives “absent”? 

At the end of the day though, whining about it isn’t going to do anything. You have to win the game before you can change the rules. And even if I spend 60% of my life absent, I still won’t outsource my work, because as Rick said, if you really care about it, you’ll do whatever it takes.

RickB-Astoria

"No I am not. But if entire graduating classes are having difficulty getting things done, maybe there’s simply too much to be done in too short a time frame." 

That doesn't exist. There are and always some who just can't cut it because they just can't grasp the subject matter and flunk out. That's true for any educational program. There are those who put the time in. There are those committed to putting the hours in to keep a 3.5 to 4.0 gpa which in EVERY academic program requires more than just a 40 hour a week commitment for the student who have to actually learn the stuff and do the work. 

Sure, the students who can do A+ work on every assignment in architecture school or any program are students who are already in the profession and learned it and have like 5 to 10 or more years of experience and really don't need to go to college. Sure if you are an top notch architect, you should ace your way through all the studio courses and maintain A's and B's in all the subject courses and do all that in 40 hours a week... sure....if you manage to get that far along without needing a degree. But the average architecture student begins fresh out of high school with little to zero prior architectural or related education beyond a art class in high school. This means they just aren't that good yet. They have to learn and practice and need to practice at least 40 hours a week in addition to the class room learning. 

We can either be catering ourselves to an every lazier population with little to no work ethics or work stamina. Architects have gone through this for over a century and many lived long productive lives with very active work life that often entailed working more than 40 hours a week. Many lived well into their 90s. That's a long life for anyone, anywhere. Architecture is an office job of sorts. It isn't the same kind of stress and impact working in construction is. That's a whole hell of a lot more. It's physical wear and tear not just your mental exhaustion.

randomised

@archinet

If a student cannot manage their time they seem lazy or not the brightest.

Or both.

I am sorry I never pulled an all nighter as an arch student. I planned my layout of my boards at least a week in advance in indesign and put my drawings finished or not inside.

That’s not something to apologise for.

 Also as a student having corporate looking renderings does not seem like a particularly smart thing to do.

I’m sure a guy like the OP has enough skills to make it look like anything you want, hell even corporate firms are now adopting the naïve flat collage style so popular these days among students.

I expect my students to have some concept to how they communicate their architectural ideas. So even if they had corporate flashy renders does not preclude the project is any good- whats worse it shows work they cannot do in their portfolio.

What if they don’t commission/art-direct flashy corporate renders but rather student renders in a way they know how to do themselves but simply don’t have the time for at that moment… I don’t know why people think outsourcing means flashy corporate, my guess is most people who do those things for students are other students themselves.

 Seems like a waste of money for nothing.

I think it gets people the images they think they need in order to pass. Seems like a waste of money to me too, but for others it might have been money well spent.  


Nov 8, 18 11:05 am
Lewis Garrison

Holy shit students do this!?! This was totally unheard of and would be extremely looked down upon when I was in school. The most we would to is pay to print our boards somewhere else because the schools plotters were backed up during finals. Isn't the point to showcase your work? Plus after paying for books and model materials I was broke as hell. Paying someone to do my renderings or something like that was never an option. 

Nov 8, 18 11:20 am
BulgarBlogger

College in Europe is free and some students can be extremely pretentious. American students are much more down to earth. Just look at how Americans dress vs. Europeans. Its all about the outward appearance...

randomised

Hahaha, so you go to work in your sweatpants and hoody BB?

How is this different from what every architect does when he/she hires interns?

Nov 8, 18 11:22 am
RickB-Astoria

In academia, you are graded based on what is taught, the work you prepared and criteria for what knowledge and skills you attained and demonstrated proficiency in. When it is among the skills that you have to demonstrate proficiency in various visual communication such as rendering, you have to know this. If someone else did it for you and you don't demonstrate proficiency in these things then you don't meet a the student performance criteria. Rendering is a sub-component of Technical Documentation which includes all components of visual communication which segways into other components of the Student Performance Criteria of NAAB accreditation standards. When evaluating whether or not students perform adequately, this is all across the board evaluated against the NAAB standards (or equivalent in other countries). Most recognized degree programs have some sort of student performance criteria that is evaluated against baselines and norms. When a student is outsourcing and representing that work as their own work, they are effectively cheating because they are being given credit or grade for work they did not do and being evaluated as having these skills when in fact they do not. This is basically fraud and deception on the student's part and those like Erf Ami is in business of facilitating the deception and fraud of the student when they are partaking too much of the process when it is not explicitly accepted or approved by the instructor or institution. If it is approved for a particular course or particular assignment then the point is moot and doesn't matter. It is when it is used wholesale to have someone else do the students homework throughout. That is academic dishonesty which is fraud.

Dangermouse

i get credit on projects as an intern.


people who plagiarize don't give credit.  

if the student gives credit to the outsource renderer...who cares?

RickB-Astoria

The instructor/professor and the academic institution. It would be something that would be assessed by the specific facts of each case. I have said there are times where it may be acceptable and times when it isn't.

I don't mean getting away with it without getting caught as being whether it is acceptable or not acceptable. 


88Buildings

Ha ha...on a brighter note, may be this student thinks like a real world businessman. 

Don't shoot me.

Nov 8, 18 4:10 pm
RickB-Astoria

You haven't earned it.     :-)

sameolddoctor

A MILLION DOLLARS

Nov 8, 18 6:53 pm

as much as it takes

randomised

@Rick

There is a general reason why students need to commit like 60+ hours a week to do what typically takes about 30-40 hours a week to do as an relatively inexperienced employee would take. Part of the 60 hours is the ~15 hours give or take of instruction/lectures from the instructor or professor. Then there is the part where the student has to learn stuff and learn skills.

Wrong, they should only have to spend 40hrs a week on their studies, that’s also how that point/credit system is set up. If what they need to learn in their studies doesn’t fit in 40 hrs, it should be part of next weeks agenda, etc.

That is because they don't know how to work. They burn out because they aren't dedicated. Architecture never was for everyone. There are too many who wants the title and wants the degree and everything without putting effort. They think being an architect is easy. They get this false impression somehow because they don't see what it really takes

Or…the work didn’t evolve with our day and age. There is a significant increase in burn-outs in general among millennials as compared to previous generations, not just architecture. It’s too easy to shift that blame on to them, not knowing how to work, maybe they just don’t know how to work in that flawed system that neoliberal, capitalist system that treats students and employees as revenue instead of people. Those kids when they graduate, if they graduate, are the first modern generation that has it worse than their parents. They have a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads of immense student debt, which they might never pay off, forget getting a mortgage in that situation and settling down and start a family, for example, or having a decent pension. Also the immense burden of a rotten system, a destroyed planet and the doom that is climate change hangs over their heads, they’ll have to deal with the consequences when the people that caused it are long gone.

If architecture is right for you, what is it to you spending WHATEVER it takes doing what you love doing. If it is the right field for you, you'd commit whatever you need and enjoy the work you do.

But what if you can’t? If your head is full, if you’re exhausted and can’t continue any more. Even if it is the right field for some and they love architecture, there’s only so much a person can or should do. In the old days it was much easier to dedicate yourself fully to one thing, that is much more difficult in this day and age. The fact almost none here understand is kind of typical, that’s exactly the reason younger generations of students and architects avoid this forum, people are unable to relate to their struggles. A burn-out or suicidal thoughts are serious issues, why does this generation of students suffer from that more than previous ones? Only because they don’t know how to work hard? Come on…And about doing whatever it takes and passions etc. when are you finally finishing your degree, any degree? (sorry, too easy)

You know you are an architect when you are staring at architecture and mulling over the beauty of mullions and moldings at the ceiling when you are dating a woman and your attention is on the architectural elements and not the elements of the woman.

There’s a reason the #MeToo movement came up under this new generation, times have changed you know. The ways of the old don’t cut it any more, comparing women to moldings, geez…

Netherlands have a pretty short work week and the work hours per week and day are shorter. U.S. work week is typically about 35 to 60 hours a week.

Because we are more productive and work smarter not harder. We simply get more done than you in less time. You should learn something from that rather than forcing that flawed working model of yours onto the next generation, basically out of spite.


Nov 9, 18 3:10 am
randomised

"Architect Ben Channon was finishing up his architectural qualifications when he began to realize the toll it was taking on his mental health." https://archinect.com/features/article/150094452/how-overwork-and-anxiety-led-architect-ben-channon-to-focus-on-designing-for-happiness

RickB-Astoria

Wrong, they should only have to spend 40hrs a week on their studies, that’s also how that point/credit system is set up. If what they need to learn in their studies doesn’t fit in 40 hrs, it should be part of next weeks agenda, etc.

There is only around 30-36 weeks of academic study each academic year. Then for fuck sake take fewer courses per term or semester if you are such a fragile snowflake.


Nov 9, 18 4:57 am
randomised

You just don't get it and refuse to see that the kind of attitude you're demanding is causing brain damage and mental health issues among students and young professionals. Or maybe you're just unable to see it and are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome from a profession that's keeping you hostage.

RickB-Astoria

No... its not brain damage. Being hit in the head with a hammer is brain damage. There are millions of us who have gone through all this with none of the mental health issues or brain damage. What is different is millenials just aren't adults yet. They haven't grown up from the ridiculous idealism and learned to settle with a lower level of expectation. There mental health problems is they just aren't accepting reality for what it is. They are losing their health because they can't accept the fact that no one gives a fuck about them and simply aren't willing to bend over and kiss their millenial asses. You are no more special than anyone else. Accept the fact that you are not special. You are just another one of now over 7 BILLION human beings. Why the fuck should we care? Why the fuck should we turn the world and everything to cater to some pimple face teenager or child? Get with the fucking program, earn your fucking place in the world and earn the respect. Respect is not entitled. It is EARNED. This is why they don't get it. 

Happiness or Sadness is the difference between rewards in life and expectation. If the rewards of life exceeds expectation, you'll find happiness. If the rewards falls short of expectation, you'll find sadness. Prolonged sadness is emotional depression. You might now be able to control the rewards in life but you sure the hell can control expectation. Part of growing up and actually maturing into adults (which used to be attained before reaching 18 years of age) is now not happening until much later like well into the late 20s. Why is that? It is because of over-sheltering and over emphasizing idealism which doesn't exist. I learned to lower my expectations. I still have options to licensure and even architecture school. Sure, I could take loans out and go to architecture school but I rather not put draw on it as much. It isn't Stockholme syndrome. For me to be effective and run a business, I have to work more than just 40 hours a week in order to meet the expectations. 

If I limited myself to 40 hours a week or less, I would either have to take fewer clients OR I would have to reduce how much time per week goes into each project and in turn would require project cycle taking significantly longer. 60 hours a week allows me to have 15 to 20 hours set aside per project and pipeline between 2 projects and still time to administer the business. Otherwise, it would be down to 10 hours a week per project. This means that delivering on the project would take up to twice as long. Something a prospective client would pursue a different architect/designer to do the services. When I say, we don't have unilateral control of project schedule, that's a reality of the real world. When you work for clients, to a certain degree, you need to meet their expectations. 

None of them are going to cater to the dreams and expectations of earning $40K+ a year on just 20 hours a week of work that millenials want. Ideally, they would earn all the money they need for basic living needs without having to work even one minute.... where working is merely optional. Life is not that way in the U.S. It might be in the Netherlands in the last 100 years but it isn't event remotely that way in the U.S.

RickB-Astoria

Or…the work didn’t evolve with our day and age. There is a significant increase in burn-outs in general among millennials as compared to previous generations, not just architecture. It’s too easy to shift that blame on to them, not knowing how to work, maybe they just don’t know how to work in that flawed system that neoliberal, capitalist system that treats students and employees as revenue instead of people. Those kids when they graduate, if they graduate, are the first modern generation that has it worse than their parents. They have a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads of immense student debt, which they might never pay off, forget getting a mortgage in that situation and settling down and start a family, for example, or having a decent pension. Also the immense burden of a rotten system, a destroyed planet and the doom that is climate change hangs over their heads, they’ll have to deal with the consequences when the people that caused it are long gone.

1) The U.S. is a capitalist economy. We aren't communist Russia. We don't have a base line income paid to each of us by the government. It doesn't work that way in the U.S. People are part of the revenue system. 

2) Take a chill pill. The planet is not destroyed. If it was, we would actually be dead. Climate change is always a fact of reality. We certainly contributed to the elevation of CO2 in the atmosphere and other greenhouse gases but Earth has historically over its 4 BILLION+ year history has had CO2 levels significantly higher than it is today even during human life time. The last major ice age that approximately ended 10,000 or so years ago resulted in mass extinctions. Earth has done that naturally over its own history long before human kind and long after it. Humans are inherently resilient species that are adaptive to changing conditions like we have been doing continuously for the last 10,000 years and for the next 10,000 years. So, guys.... relax a little. Even if we don't move as fast with sustainable practices as we would like, it will not be the end of the world. We may have to relocate with rising sea level then so be it. Earth is dynamic and always have been.

3) Student debt rise is a result of measures like Oregon Measure 5 in 1990 and equivalent in other states where there was reduction in tax dollars subsidizing the cost of schools. This is how that happened in the U.S. I can't speak for other countries for I don't know the information on sufficiently.

4) Millenials and other young adults. QUIT BEING SUCH DRAMA QUEENS. Home ownership has never been a reality for the masses except during a relatively brief time frame with the G.I. Bill funding. That is now passe. We are more like we were before the G.I. Bill in that the average working class in the low middle class and lower income lived in apartments. Middle Middle class may either live in apartments or in a small cottage. Upper middle class and higher were home owners. Owning property is a privilege of wealth not a inherent human right to own property. Only that if you own property of any kind that there is due process requirements before it can be taken away from you.

EVERY aspect of business operations is equated monetarily. Human resource is an investment of capital for return. People maybe people but there is no inherent right to have an easy cushiony life. That has never been, is not, nor ever will be an inalienable right. The U.S. Constitution does not make "happiness" an inanlienable right. Even the Declaration of Indepedence only makes the "pursuit of happiness" an inalienable right but that was never implemented in the U.S. Constitution. In practice, you can pursue happiness all you want. However, happiness is not guaranteed. Welcome to the real world millenials and post-millenials. 


Nov 9, 18 5:23 am
randomised

1) And that’s exactly what is at the root of the problem, you just bow down to an inherently flawed system and expect others to do the same, while that system is destroying people’s lives, their mental health and the planet to go with it. You are just saying, that’s the way it is, deal with it and stop crying. Great advice! 

2) Sorry, I’m not going to debate climate change with you, the planet is being destroyed as we speak, species are going extinct for ever and will never come back. According to satellite analysis 8 milion hectare (31.000 square miles) of tropical forest is being destroyed every year, so don’t come up with a lame excuse as ‘we humans are resilient etc.’ the planet is more than us humans. 

3) I’m not debating the cause of student debt rise, I don’t care about that, I was talking about the consequences that debt has on people, the crushing burden, something you just seem to skip. 

4) Not too long ago you were debating here why you prefer to stay living with your parents and renting or buying on your own is too expensive…it is simply not normal when working professionals after a university degree can not afford to live in anything but a shoebox in the city or in their parents basement, that kind of system just sucks. And telling kids they shouldn’t be drama queens over such concerns that affect their well being and future is just ridiculous. 

A system that is making people unhappy, that is affecting their mental and physical health should not just be tolerated and accepted because “that’s the way the cookie crumbles”, that’s how you get school shootings and such, it should be changed and the people that are trying to make that change should be supported not ridiculed. 

Isn’t architecture about making the world a better place? Ah well what do you know about architecture, all you see is moldings ;)

RickB-Astoria

1) Are you an full-time architect or are you a full-time activist. When you have to work full-time to earn income sufficient to support yourself and your family, you need to pick ONE career and focus on it. 2) Yeah, creatures go extinct. The last ice age a number of extinctions without much of human's fault in the matter. 65 Million years ago, Earth had major scale of extinctions that far exceeds the number of extinctions caused by human interaction. Humans have done damage but Earth is not destroyed. Did you know that Earth survived a Gamma Ray Burst even though 98% of life on earth were literally killed in a matter a minutes? Yet, life on Earth somehow miraculously continued. It's not the end of the world. 3) Maybe we de-emphasized architectural degrees as the path to licensure and return some of the paths to licensing that existed 100 years ago. Just under 100 years ago, in Oregon, architectural licensing law was more a "title and registration" law than a "practice law". As long as I don't call myself by the title Architect, I can design any building in 1919 and 1920.

RickB-Astoria

4) What was I told? Stop being such a damn drama queen. It is a hell of a lot easier to achieve the goals if you want to pursue it if you stop trying to fight to change things. When you realize that you are not such a fucking special snowflake like you been told, you might actually A) learn humility and B) learn to set realistic goals and expectations for yourself instead of trying to be Captain Planet of Architecture.

randomised

1) I work as an architect to help achieve my activist agenda :)

2) The species going extinct today are because of our actions or inactions, never before did a species on earth (like us homo sapiens) cause mass extinction single-handedly. 

3) Not relevant or related to what I brought up.

4) It is very easy to achieve goals that require no effort or change, they’re like farts. Maybe if you stop telling people they’re snowflakes they might think otherwise and start behaving accordingly ;)

a) Humility, what’s that?

b) Nothing wrong with a bit of ambition beyond the amount of farts one can produce in a single sitting. If only more people tried to be the Captain Planet of Architecture, the world (and Architecture) would be a much better place.





RickB-Astoria

1) That's fine. Yes, we can do certain things. The point is that you pick your battles. For example, my focus areas of building design is in historic preservation and areas of sustainable building design such as use of passive solar, geothermal, wind based electric generation, and so forth. 

 2) That maybe true. Maybe it is because humans are a genetically altered species by that of an E.T. (our original historic reference to 'gods') that had visited earth and had long left Earth.... yet leaving their trouble behind to wreak havoc to the ecosystem. That trouble is us genetically altered hominid. E.T. left and returned home or something after sowing the seeds of troubles on Earth. Who knows.... just a theory in jest. 

3) You did bring up student loan debts: "They have a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads of immense student debt, which they might never pay off". Forgot?? 

4) Sure, I can stop calling them snowflakes but I'm not sugarcoating the bullshit excuses. They can behave and stop thinking like a snowflake, already. 

Now for 4(a): Know that you are just a human being. There are things you can do. Instead of trying to save the whole world, maybe you can save yourself first and then help others towards a better more sustainable architecture that is more eco-friendly with the people you design projects for. 

 4(b) It is find to have ambition but be realistic and pick & choose your battles. I don't try to save the world. I try to design more eco friendly and sustainable architecture and if possible make existing buildings more ecologically friendly. Choices I can make to a point. In reality, I don't have a unilateral control or carte blanche role on the design unless the client gives that degree of trust. Some clients are too 'hands on' the reins of the project. Some clients are next to impossible in getting them to invest in sustainable building design practices. Sometimes, you can talk to their wallet in the long term. Sometimes, they just can't comprehend to think past today. 

Captain Planet is a fictional superhero with super powers. I'm just a human being. Humility is the key attribute of knowing what you can do or can't do. I can't go about everywhere and fix every issue. I can't solve the world social problems.

randomised

1) ”Yes, we can do certain things.” So just do them and stop finding excuses not to. 

2) Did Tom Cruise tell you that? 

3) I bring up student loans and you reply with something about your local licensing system. Probably because you don’t have one, I don’t know. But therefore, your reply is not relevant to the talk about crushing student debt, it would simply improve your personal situation. 

4a) How is saving yourself first while destroying the planet in the process going to work in the long run? Do both, save yourself and the planet...

 4b) ”I don't try to save the world. I try to design more eco friendly and sustainable architecture and if possible make existing buildings more ecologically friendly.” There you go, was that so hard? Just do it, always, all the time, every time. 

The thing is you should (re?)watch Captain Planet, it would teach you that even seemingly insignificant improvements done by just one individual do have an impact and can make a difference. 

Enough snowflakes together can cause an avalanche you know HAHAHA

RickB-Astoria

"According to satellite analysis 8 milion hectare (31.000 square miles) of tropical forest is being destroyed every year, so don’t come up with a lame excuse as ‘we humans are resilient etc.’ the planet is more than us humans." Maybe you are in the wrong profession. Architecture is the enemy of ecological equilibrium. Humans are suppose to live in caves and under a tree or otherwise live *IN* nature. The fact that we build our artificial homes, we are destroying natural habitat to make an artificial habitat. There is a price to pay for having architecture. The most sustainable and ecological thing we can do as human species is go back to the way things were before we built buildings. In which case, the goal is to roll back the clock 25,000 years of human civilization and go back to pre-civilization era where people don't own land. They don't own territories, There are no countries. Go back to basic survival. That is what actually has to be done for us to not destroy earth. It isn't destroyed yet. Damage... yes with partial areas destroyed but naturally recovers over time. In order for us to not make Earth completely inhabitable at some point in the future by our own actions, we need to put an end to the civilization way of living. There is only so far you can go in sustainable practices but even the very act of creating buildings comes with a cost. Do you think the world is ready for the inconvenient truth that they have to give up everything of the last 10,000 to 25,000 years of human history of civilization to return ourselves back to a species that is one WITH nature.

RickB-Astoria

As I said above..... small steps only putts the problem down the road a little. It doesn't stop the problem.

RickB-Astoria

1) Unlike artists who can whatever they want to make their art, we have rules to follows, clients that we answer to.... like fiduciary responsibility and spending their money in a manner that that approve. Yes, when we design their project, we are in an effect making decisions about how to spend our client's money. 2) Doesn't matter. It's jest but who knows... it could be true and scientifically rational. 3) Read it closer. It is more than just licensing. Consider this, licensing requirements prescribes they have to get these degrees and hence why the student loan debt. If the path to licensure allows other paths to licensing and the employers stop requiring it to get the job, we would be solving the student loan debt problem for most people in architecture. Those are decisions we can make in this profession. It is by choice that they emphasize a lengthy and expensive degree and huge loan debt because the intent of this system is to put impediments to you being able to be in a position to A) get your license and B) establishing your own business as attempts at stifling competition. Universities used to be only for rich well to do. It is those rich well to do people who wants to keep the caste system status quo. This culture permeates the architecture education and licensing process. More people who don't come from high income household would pursue an apprenticeship/experience based path to licensure if A) licensing system allows for experience and B) employers are willing to hire people without an NAAB accredited degree at ANY economy not just the current highs but also during modest economies.

RickB-Astoria

In response to 4a, "4a) How is saving yourself first while destroying the planet in the process going to work in the long run? Do both, save yourself and the planet..." Do you have any inclination to what you are asking? To save the planet means humans must either go extinct OR simply go back to pre-civilization ways of living as a species with the end of civilizations and the return to the ancient "hunters and gatherers" way of living back in the pre-western and pre-eastern civilization way of life. That is what it takes to save Earth from humans. It's easier to save myself and those around me for 100 years by putting the ball. Even sustainable practices of architecture falls short of saving the earth and the world. It may delay our self-inflicted doom but that's about it. 

4(b) Those small acts albeit are fine and all and are better than not applying such practices, we can only putt the ball but even with current practices, Earth would still be able to support life for another 10,000 years and then some. Earth is a great equalizer. It will find balance and it can and will do that even to humans. Earth is known to kill humans in its processes. 


randomised

I don't think it's only architecture students that amass that whooping $1.52 trillion dollars in student debt! That's $1.52*10^12 https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2018/06/13/student-loan-debt-statistics-2018/#6c9617247310

Keeping this short, the student loan crisis is not related to the architectural licensing system.

RickB-Astoria

It is true that student loan crisis is a lot broader than architectural licensing. This is an architecture forum so when it comes to student loan debt crisis, it is in part related to architectural licensing. I already spoke of the broader factor of the student loan debt crisis. I already told the reason for it with one state specific reference but other states had similar measures or legislative actions that resulted in less public dollars going into the student loans and more of the cost is shouldered on the backs of the student and they do that via loans. Grants are never enough for covering university costs. Eventually, students have to pay the loans with interest. You missed what I said about Oregon Measure 5 in 1990 and equivalent actions done in other states and countries.

RickB-Astoria

Enough intolerant snowflakes and here's what happens to Earth:


randomised

"It is true that student loan crisis is a lot broader than architectural licensing. This is an architecture forum so when it comes to student loan debt crisis, it is in part related to architectural licensing" 

It is not related to licensing just because you say so. There are many countries that require licensing of their architects, yet they don't have a student debt crisis as in the states.

randomised

"Enough intolerant snowflakes and here's what happens to Earth:"  

Most snowflakes I met are quite tolerant actually. It's the older yellow snowballs that are intolerant towards anyone who doesn't agree with them.

RickB-Astoria

That is because schooling is entirely subsidized by the tax payers of those countries. In the U.S., tax payers have chosen to not put as much money from their property taxes and other taxes to go to funding college. That is why. When you do that coupled with requiring students to have to go take these degrees in order to get licensed, they are either going to take out the loans so they can get the degree or they don't go to college. 

When both licensing systems and employers requires the degree, it is a system that compels students to get the degree is they want to get a job that pays more than minimum wage. The office oriented professions be it licensed professions like architecture and any office professions that don't require a license, requires degrees to get even the entry level jobs. This is because in the U.S., we DO NOT DO ON THE JOB TRAINING (or apprenticeship) ANYMORE. OJT/Apprenticeship is only seen in manual labor oriented (blue collar) jobs. There, you might find people willing to hire people without degrees. How the hell can I personally change that reality. I can only make decisions for my own business as to what I am willing to accept for employing people. I can not control how others do their employment practices. It's a correlated system between academia, tax payers unwillingness to support complete subsidization of student tuition and housing, licensing authorities, and employers. It is all the system. 

In the Netherlands, there isn't the student loan problems because isn't the college education subsidized so much that between tax payers paying more in taxes to cover the cost of education for a complete tuition free college experience with complete subsidization of on-campus housing, then you have also the grants to cover costs like books and supplies. It's practically a free ride through college. It pretty much doesn't exist here in the U.S.

RickB-Astoria

"Most snowflakes I met are quite tolerant actually. It's the older yellow snowballs that are intolerant towards anyone who doesn't agree with them." 

Around here in the U.S., it seems like we got a lot more yellow and brown snowballs.

RickB-Astoria

Maybe it isn't that free in Netherlands but the cost is lower because it is more subsidized so tuition can be in the $3000 USD range compared to in the $10,000+ range. When you take that into account and scholarships and grants designed for typical tuition, fees, and other associated costs of college in the U.S., the coverage would go further in Netherlands than it would be in the U.S. The more the tax payer subsidizes the cost of college, the more the grants like the Pell grants (in the U.S.) goes a lot further and covering the cost of attendance.

Add to it, the average pay per hour of labor is higher in the Netherlands than it is in the U.S. It's just different.


RickB-Astoria

There’s a reason the #MeToo movement came up under this new generation, times have changed you know. The ways of the old don’t cut it any more, comparing women to moldings, geez…

What the hell does #MeToo have to do with anything? I wasn't comparing women to moldings for fuck sake. That was not the point. It was that Architects are thinking about the architecture of the building and the space and form not the persons around them in a sort of a Jeff Foxworthy style "You just might be a..." parody. Sheesh. The whole damn #MeToo extremism has got people to the point where there is GOING to be a gender segregation movement. If history can be a lesson then we should learn from them. When you push too extreme in any direction, an equal and opposite reaction occurs. Kind of like the Newton's laws of physics.

The gender war will result in gender segregation period if we keep pushing too extreme on things.


Nov 9, 18 6:15 am
randomised

#MeToo has everything to do with it. I know you were not comparing women to moldings directly but were talking about the obsession the architect has for everything architectural, so much so as to forget the person on the other side of the table. But still, to even bring such an objectifying example in to this discussion is a little weird. The times have simply changed, no longer will people tolerate abuse in any way or be allowed to look away when nasty things are happening, ignorance is no excuse or responses like “that’s the way it’s always been, deal with it or gtfo”. #MeToo was an analogy but they are all consequences of the same flawed system that are now finally being questioned and put an end to (hopefully).

RickB-Astoria

You don't think woman don't have obsessions? You are a living fucking object as everyone is. We are fucking nothing but a pile of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Get over yourselves. People are too thin skin to the point where social relationship can not EVER possibly exist between men and women in this environment of absolute extremist intolerance. That is why I am NOT going to be dating American women at all. The #MeToo movement are turning all the women into Lesbian feminazi man-haters because they are trapping themselves into this Women against all Men as a war to eradicate all men from the Earth. I have had enough of that extremism. At this point, if a man even asks a woman to go out on a date, they have to lawyer up because they are going to scream sexual harassment just on that alone. 

Forget it, women. I will wait until another life time or two or three before I'll consider pursuing a relationship with women anymore. I'm not gay, either so I'll just live life out without such relationships. It isn't worth the damn trouble. 

It was one thing to speak against actual sexual harassment which legally begins when a man or woman expresses in words that they do not to pursue a sexual relationship with another person of the same or opposite gender and that they express that such pursuit bothers them and they wish it to discontinue. All these things must be made clear and communicated. If the person who been informed of that continues the pursuit, it becomes sexual harassment. 

However, #MeToo movement in a side effect has been claiming even the mere "asking of going out on a date" in person as sexual harassment as if the only way to date is to date online. Sorry, I don't pursue dating online because I don't want to pay through the nose to talk or communicate. I grew up before online dating became a thing when dating was a thing you do in person not over the internet. I think it is these new age methods that are failing you guys that are causing problems. There was a time when marriage vows meant something. It is the very lacking of it meaning anything that is a big problem in our social structure. It has been snowballing into the disaster we have now.

randomised

I am not literally talking about #MeToo, although I am. I am talking about our day and age that allowed for a #MeToo kind of awareness to finally emerge (or BlackLivesMatter, hell even Bernie Sanders to some extent). I am talking about a similar awareness about other aspects of life such as our physical and mental well-being beyond the cold numerical financial approach you seem to take as carved in stone or even celebrate/embrace. 

It is very easy and cynical to take a passive position, claiming you as an individual can't do anything to change the system (financial, economic, ecosystem, environment, climate, etc.), so let's take advantage of that system instead. If that's how you want to live your life, go ahead, but you're wrong. 

We're in this mess because millions of people like you think their actions don't matter, or don't have any effect, so nothing ever changes, and so nothing ever changes for the better and it only gets worse. Well there's now a generation that is less cynical and more optimistic or at least more aware of what's at stake, I think they deserve our support rather than what you're serving them.

RickB-Astoria

As far as it has been throughout all my life, discrimination based on gender is illegal and has been for over two generations. If it is about pay equality, that was never an issue in my business. If you are an employee, you are paid based on the position's duties and responsibilities. Those may change over time for a variety of reasons. But if there was two identical positions, I could choose a man or woman for those positions. Both positions would have the same pay level provide each person has equivalent level of education/experience. If the position does have some room for negotiation, negotiation is an art. If you take the opportunity to negotiate salary based on your education & experience and is persuasive then you can easily then you might be able to negotiate a higher salary. However, best practices might be to not have negotiated salaries if the focus is pay equality. Personality does matter to a degree is you would be liked and regarded. Personally, I wouldn't mind men and women in the business but personality matters. If you are too intolerant.... you are also too intolerable. Those who tend to be too thin skinned and raging over even the most slightest of anything because of their way over sensitivity to any perceivable expression of feelings especially from someone of the opposite gender is too far a mismatch. I find some of the women in the #MeToo movement to be way too extreme in their intolerance. I see that with some men, too. There has to be a balance but there also have to be some degree of casualness.

RickB-Astoria

"Because we are more productive and work smarter not harder. We simply get more done than you in less time. You should learn something from that rather than forcing that flawed working model of yours onto the next generation, basically out of spite."

I doubt that to an extent. There is a minimum amount of hours it takes to do tasks even when working smart. If I leave it to tomorrow to do something I can do today. Sure, if I hire employees to do design and just be a business man than I can work 20-40 hours a week. Then I wouldn't be a designer anymore. It just means I am only a business executive. In a smaller business, we don't pigeon hole each person to one particular role and function. In small practices, we run the business and design. The reality is, we are always design-thinking even if we were out at a restaurant. When you are taking a stroll around the neighborhood with your spouse and you are observing the architecture around and visualizing how those architectural elements fits into your current project(s) then you just might be an architect. 

When you are a small business, you have everything from running the business to working on client projects and making progress to even going to planning or design committee meetings during the evening hours. 

Nov 9, 18 6:26 am
randomised

If I leave it to tomorrow to do something I can do today.

I already finished it.

JLC-1

faster....you must be a rabbit

randomised

harder, better, faster, stronger

randomised

They're even better live :)

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