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Sexual harrassment

JeromeS

Garrison Keillor got jobbed!

Nov 29, 17 4:01 pm
JonathanLivingston

Man this one, along with Franken are still kinda bothering me. internally I'm trying to reconcile the fact that good people sometimes do bad things. Is it a zero sum game? how do you weigh these kinds of issues against a life time of positive work or other accomplishments? I was thinking about Thomas Jefferson, you know the rapist on our $2 dollar bill.

JeromeS

Maybe Garrison is right. Maybe there is an air of McCarthy-ism to what’s happening.

JeromeS

I read his statement as an F-U, in a way only Garrison can say it

won and done williams

Not to get too political here, but how long has the left cast a blind eye towards Bill Clinton? It's a lot harder when it's one of your own, I guess.

I left the DEM because of Clinton. Never went back.

3tk

Yup. Seen it in enough places (and interns ending up as partners) to know it's not rare.  Also seen it go the other way, bullying, and racial prejudice (making certain demographics work longer and speaking to them poorly).  Worst one I saw was HR harassing staff, doling out benefits to those that would obey (including puchasing after work drinks, dinner, etc); benefits being spa treatments, and looking other way on company card expenditures and time off.

Nov 29, 17 5:41 pm

19,435 days without a non-consentual sex act and counting.

Nov 29, 17 6:42 pm
JeromeS

Just because it’s consentual doesn’t mean it’s appropriate for the work place

I stopped going to "work place". I just stay at the house all day. Which is pretty awesome, except for the cat who keeps licking himself all day long.

I think the only "inappropriate" things I witnessed at "work places" were the designs. Oh, one interiors firm used to allow the poodles to defecate on the lobby floor. I left that place pretty quick.

cipyboy

ya know that it's getting a little out of hand when Massage Envy clients come forward with these claims.


Nov 30, 17 3:49 pm
JonathanLivingston

I was once propositioned by a female client. It made the relationship finishing the project very awkward as we had a lot of meetings with her husband too. I'm not sure he would have cared. I'm not sure I would call it harassment because it was a one time thing, just an unwanted advance, and not a coworker, so the situation ended fairly quickly. 

Other than that I have not seen what I would call harassment.  

But the sexism in this industry is very real. I have seen many of the things woman have posted about being judged or relegated to tasks based on their gender. I had a female principle at a firm for quite a while and though I was her subordinate any number of people from clients to contractors and reps would speak to me first presumably only because I was a man. 

I am extremely worried that while we think we are dealing with this harassment issue right now, we are actually setting ourselves way back. How many stupid men (as evidenced by this thread) are going to avoid talking to a woman because they are worried that a misstep could cause a problem? Is it safer to talk to the man? does that undermine women's ability to claim authority? 

I worry less about harassment of my daughters because I think they have a strong constitution and the ability to stand up and say NO or speak out when something bad happens. But the systemic misogynistic views that prevent opportunities being available to them in the first place is an issue I do not yet have an answer to. I think we just desperately need gender equality at the top. Like some sort of affirmative action plan but for women.  

I'm sure that comment is going to see some haters. I'm not attacking men. Don't conflate the issue with your masculinity. 

Nov 30, 17 5:30 pm

I agree, it seems to come down to a person's ability to act when pressed.

JonathanLivingston

It's a double edged sword. A women can't act without reinforcing the stereo type. That's my fear. All of this action, however correct it may be is being blown out of proportion to the extent that it is having some really negative consequences.

JonathanLivingston

The "Pence Rule" is way worse for society than the harrasment issues. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/29/mike-pence-rule-contrasts-sex-misconduct-accusatio/

randomised

"All of this action, however correct it may be is being blown out of proportion to the extent that it is having some really negative consequences." 

What are those really negative consequences? Just keeping it in your pants is always an option...

won and done williams

I find it uncomfortable when men are having a conversation about what's best for women, even if well intentioned. I know ya'll are trying to be sympathetic, but somehow it just comes off as re-enforcing the schism you are trying to break down.

"person's ability"

JonathanLivingston

@ Won, Yeah I know what you mean, but a conversation has to happen. There are women on this thread who are contributing to the conversation. @Randomised the negative consequence is you are seeing men worried about false accusations. Mainly because of the hype and sensationalism given to these claims. the vitriol with which some are defending and ostracizing offenders. There will most certainly be both men and women who are hesitant to engage each other professionally because of perceived risk. This is the idea of the "Pence Rule" It has nothing to do with protecting women and everything to do with protecting Mike Pence. It seems horrible to me that could be the outcome for some people, because now rather than potentially having to deal with a shitty harassment or inappropriate situation women are not even in the room. Opportunities are denied. Women are seen as a burden.

jla-x

I've never harassed a women in my life. It's actually really easy to not harass women. This is not "a conversation we need to have" as most people already know appropriate from inappropriate. This is a conversation some assholes need to hear. Big difference.

jla-x

We also need to stop pretending that we don't notice attractive women. It's bullshit. It's tantamount to "colorblindness". People need to be mature enough to think "wow she is beautiful", and still show respect. Fucking thought police and these pc hipster assholes are the new puritans. And women need to stop playing the sex card. Some women are dumb and some are assholes just as some men are. Equality means that I should be able to call a women a moron as I can call a man one. Or disagree with their policy or idea without automatically being called a sexist.

JonathanLivingston

"I've never harassed a women in my life. It's actually really easy to not harass women. This is not a conversation we need to have ." We are not the ones who define what is harassment. That is for the victim to decide.

JonathanLivingston

You should read that article that Tduds posted a few comments down. You and I are both one of the "good guys" just like Franken, Keilor, and Clinton. Good people sometimes do shitty things. Often without the knowledge what they are doing is shitty. 

jla-x

Terrible article pushing guilty until proven innocent bs. Sexual assault and harassment are very obvious to anyone with common sense. Main problem is that now you have wolves like Matt lauer wearing a pc sheep suit. Harder to know upfront
who we are dealing with.

randomised

"@Randomised the negative consequence is you are seeing men worried about false accusations. Mainly because of the hype and sensationalism given to these claims."

randomised

I don't see any innocent men worried about false accusations. All I see is guilty men worried about being called out next.

RickB-Astoria

Lets ask ourselves, what IS sexual harassment and what isn't? Do we have a clear define line that say what is or isn't that is static and unshifting? How can we follow or comply with something that is shifty and differing from person to person, day to day. How can we know if we "sexually harrassed" someone if they don't give any form of indication that it is unwanted or undesired or discomforted? We aren't mind-readers? If we were, then this would be a non-issue. When someone 'comes out' 20-30 years later, making a claim and suing a person, how do we know if it was really unwanted or harassment? Could that person's view of what is or isn't sexual harassment changed and now 20-30 years later, the cultural value of the time defines it as sexual harassment but 20 to 30 years ago, it wasn't and now we get a cascade of lawsuits. When we look at Roy Moore's cases from maybe 40+ years ago, wasn't it legal at the time for a person in high school at age 16 or even 14 years of age to consent to sex with anyone of any age. Wasn't the culture of place different at that time different. It wasn't that long ago in history that people were legally consenting to sex and marriage at age 12. While it would be unacceptable these days, it would be wrong to penalize people for actions that were legal and culturally accepted norm at the time. Otherwise, we would be criminalizing people for actions before it was outlawed. While, I don't feel Roy Moore's conduct was appropriate and even predatory when looking at his case in specific but claims against people can get out of hand, too. If sexual harassment was defined only by what the person making the claim views as sexual harassment than promotes a guilty until proven innocent situation against the accused. What about the accused? What about their rights? When media condemns a person, that person life is totally ruined even if they were to win such case. These people would be forced to accept guilty pleas to try to get it off the media quicker and minimize impact. If a person is accused, and the media picks up on it, that person is criminalized and demonized to the point that these persons are almost better off committing suicide or literally moving out of the country and live like a Tibetan monk or something or a hermit for the rest of their natural lives all because the accuser 20-30 years after the fact decides some statement said 20-30 years ago is sexual harassment. Women are and have been given this kind of power because they have a legal system and media culture that is bias to their side and men are treated as guilty until proven innocent as if the woman can not possibly have some ulterior motive or something. Hell, isn't there even a freakin' statutes of limitation/repose for some of this. Don't give me some b.s. that women always has it against them. No they don't. They have things on their side in the court room and with the media. A true equality means neither side has a bias. When having the media bias on their side, they won and already ruined the accused before the accused could even have a unbiased court case to properly defend themselves. The damage on the accused is already been made. If you're a man and a woman accuses you of sexual harassment and takes it to the media that is hyper eager to publish it, that man loses his job and career effectively ruined whether or not the woman's accusation has any merit. There is no requirement of merit. That's more power than any man in America other than maybe the President of the U.S. has. We can't even pursue suing for libel or slander or otherwise. There's no equitable reward that the courts would ever reward to compensate for the life long damage and destruction of one's career. If a man accused a woman, they would never publish it in the news and the courts will generally side with the woman because it is unthinkable that a man can ever be a victim of sexual harassment. It's like, are kidding? You're joking.... right? You can't possibly be a victim of a woman.

randomised

An erection doesn't mean consent.

Tinbeary There there

President Trump hasn't been taken down yet. 

Dec 1, 17 9:18 am

January 20, 1969 – August 9, 1974

Tinbeary There there

Denny Hastert is in prison.

won and done williams

NT

Tinbeary There there

He is out? I wasn't aware.

the Google says

Tinbeary There there

So he is. Molest some kids and commit financial fraud and you get 13 months. I think it is a fine example of how we treat convicted sex offenders of high power. It is easy to see how some prefer to remain silent.

s=r*(theta)

45's days are numbered; only a matter of time before melania rolls on him

family doesn't do that

tduds

This seems relevant to the conversation: https://medium.com/@thefatshad...

Dec 1, 17 4:26 pm
JonathanLivingston

Good read. Thanks

How about the annon accounts on here that just exist so they can insult people?

Dec 1, 17 10:10 pm
randomised

"Ignore User"?

RickB-Astoria

They're just pussies but then there is a rationale for not using a real name.

Their comment remains, often a false accusation. Archinect seems negligent for allowing annon posting.

77LightTemple
Heard on the street that Gensler had a few cases
Dec 6, 17 2:23 pm
fictional\_/Christopher

So maybe they will unravel and us small fish fish can gobble up the work?

you could offer to do a lunch at G and get the ball rolling, so to speak

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