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"I'll work the first month free, and you can fire me if you don't like my work"

N0Tjones

"I'll work the first month free, and you can fire me if you don't like my work and I won't object. However, if after a month you are satisfied, you will hire me full-time"

Could this work at an extremely competitive office like SANAA or Shigeru Ban or SHoP? I feel like a lot of people get jobs at some of these offices by luck and being in the right place at the right time - what if you take luck out of the equation and make it more of a business deal that you can totally control (by offering free services as part of a hook).

I'm selling my services to you, but a lot of the technique of a salesman is based on intangible or unquantifiable promises. I talk the talk, but do I walk the walk? If you're wondering the same question, how about I assure you that I walk the walk by working the first month free?

Would that get my foot in the door?

 
May 6, 16 7:33 pm
SneakyPete

Fuck you. Pay me.

 

Working for free screws everybody. Don't participate in the race to the bottom.

 

If the only way to get in at a firm is your proposed strategy, then you need to seriously re-examine your desire to work there.

May 6, 16 7:45 pm  · 
1  · 
x-jla

Lmfao.  You sound desperate.  

May 6, 16 7:59 pm  · 
1  · 
Schoon

You're only worth what you value yourself at. If you offer to work for nothing, what does that tell the firm about your value?

May 6, 16 8:28 pm  · 
1  · 
Philip Johnson said he was a whore, but at least he got paid. Not sure what that would make you giving it away for free.

Don't work for free ever, unless you are volunteering for a cause you believe in. Or community theaters.
May 6, 16 8:58 pm  · 
1  · 
monosierra

Blows my mind. In the vast majority of other industries, the top firms pay top dollar to draw top talent. Offering free labor wouldn't get you anywhere near a McKinsey, Renaissance, Google, or Tesla. Skills count. Only in some cultural industries like architecture do top firms operate a system or slave labor.

May 6, 16 9:29 pm  · 
1  · 
SpatialSojourner

Knowing someone that worked for SANAA, it was 6 months free and then hired, all the while working 12+++ hours a day.  I think that Shigeru Ban might be the same and, at least I hope, SHoP wouldn't be a fan of that.  

I appreciate what REX has posted on their website: "REX does not accept offers for unpaid internships. This practice devalues our profession and provides lawbreakers an unfair market advantage."  (http://www.rex-ny.com/contact/)

 I've been offered measly wages from "Starchitect" firms and declined because I feel that my time is worth more than almost minimum wage / free. When I was working, some days I'd day dream about working on more exciting jobs but I'm sooo happy that I didn't.  But I'm the type of person who chose the more "affordable" grad school instead of the Ivy and sometimes I have the same thoughts about that too  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

May 6, 16 9:51 pm  · 
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accesskb

I think it would be better to ask for an internship, work your butt off, and then try and get a full-time position.  If you're an asset, they'll find a way to keep you.  Otherwise, say adios like your term ended.  Good for your self-esteem and they don't have to 'fire' you.

Good luck with trying to match the work ethic of Japanese people.

May 6, 16 10:44 pm  · 
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no_form
Notjones. It sounds like you will have 12 jobs in 1 year.
May 7, 16 2:02 am  · 
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chigurh

+1 pete.

That is sorry.  Way to devalue yourself and the profession as a whole.

May 7, 16 9:46 am  · 
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awaiting_deletion

sometimes I don't charge enough and I lose the job to a guy who is cockier and charges more. 

saying "I will work for free" is the same thing as saying "I suck at what I do, but give me a chance."

May 7, 16 10:09 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

olaf, charge a good fee, then work hard to make it worth that amount. Problem solved. 

May 7, 16 10:48 am  · 
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tduds

All they're hearing is "Your name is worth more than my time"

Don't feed that ego. It's bad for the profession.

May 7, 16 5:41 pm  · 
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tduds

Also +10 to REX. I wish more companies would make that statement publicly.

May 7, 16 5:42 pm  · 
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zonker

All they're hearing is "Your name is worth more than my time"

Go ahead - its very degrading to yourself and the profession - this is the kind of stuff that goes on in Hollywood where F/X people, Maya Monkeys(I was one) work for free to get their big break that never comes for 98% because the grim truth is that only 2% ever did what it took to be truly good.

Do you have doubts about your ability or something?

 

sometimes I don't charge enough and I lose the job to a guy who is cockier and charges more. 

saying "I will work for free" is the same thing as saying "I suck at what I do, but give me a chance."

May 7, 16 8:38 pm  · 
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∑ π ∓ √ ∞

I'm sorry, did I miss the part about the reach around?

May 7, 16 11:35 pm  · 
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no_form
The reach around is how you hand the owner your resume.
May 8, 16 12:11 am  · 
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xx__

 Have you ever heard about trial period? Two weeks are enough.

May 8, 16 12:53 am  · 
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geezertect

Maybe they will give you a permanent 30-year career if you promise to work for free for the full 30 years!

What a pathetic profession.

May 8, 16 2:37 pm  · 
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BulgarBlogger

Top talent means being able to design something that is buildable... Architecture schools, for the most part, do not prepare students to be able to document their designs in a way that are buildable... Too many parameters.... Thoughtful design, code and zoning compliance, environmental and energy concerns, and so forth. A lot of this is based on experience...

May 8, 16 4:58 pm  · 
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sameolddoctor

NotJones, I have a better idea - tell them that you will work for a month, for free, and would ALSO like to get sodomized daily. If they like your "performance" you will be hired full time.

May 8, 16 10:09 pm  · 
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archiwutm8

This profession is ridiculous where people are willing to give away their time for free, I don't know any programmer or engineer that's doing any of this. All my CS and engineer friends are being fought over to be hired.

May 9, 16 4:09 am  · 
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leaves

1. note that unpaid internship is customary in Japan, do not confuse this with practice ethics elsewhere, such as in the States.

2.. one is offered to participate in the office based on the quality of application, portfolio, and then interview.

3. you are not in the position to play hook. you work for someone, please adhere the office ethics. 

what does 'luck' mean? hard work.

May 9, 16 4:29 am  · 
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Volunteer

The next obvious step is for the applicant to pay the firm for the privilege of working there. After all, when you have that Starchitect name on your resume the future is so bright you gotta wear shades.

May 9, 16 8:32 am  · 
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archiwutm8

I shit you not, I've actually seen a firm ask interns to pay them to work.

May 9, 16 8:36 am  · 
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geezertect

Wasn't that the scam that FLW was essentially running at Taliesin?  A firm masquerading as a "school"?  

May 9, 16 8:43 am  · 
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geezertect

when you have that Starchitect name on your resume the future is so bright you gotta wear shades.

Yeah, then you can go on to other unpaid/grossly underpaid gigs at other starchitect offices.  What a glorious opportunity.  Tom Sawyer is spinning in his grave.

May 9, 16 9:06 am  · 
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archiwutm8

I hear other folk tell me "If you love your job it doesn't matter what it pays you" yeah okay you can live in a bin too.

May 9, 16 9:08 am  · 
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cnrwood

N0Tjones,

Did you get the answer you wanted to hear?

Go ahead and go this route, if it works out for you, but one day in the near future you will wake up and realize that navel gazing is just a pastime, making a living is not. Don't become a prostitute of this profession - find a firm that gives YOU opportunities to succeed, not opportunities to S some D.

May 9, 16 2:45 pm  · 
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Jamb'd

This sounds like entering into an architectural competition.  Do a bunch of unpaid work in an effort to impress someone enough that they then pay you for it.

What's the difference when a company engages in this practice vs. an individual? I work for a Design-Build firm.  We make our money through construction, not architecture.  We intentionally undercharge a little for the architecture end.  Occasionally, we have a client that is hesitant to provide us with a design retainer, but the job looks promising so we will do some free concept sketches/drawings to try and sell the job. Usually, we get the work.

I guess I'm circling around to the argument, that from a business perspective, this is could be a common practice, not necessarily a good one to adhere to all the time, but sometimes a strategic practice?

May 9, 16 3:34 pm  · 
 · 

Jamb'd, that's an interesting comparison. I'm not sure there is much of a difference. You can make the statement that the business is only able to get away with doing it because their other projects have a big enough profit margin to allow them to burn some money doing 'unpaid' work. The individual is the same when they can rely on other funds (parents, trust fund, prostitution) to pay the bills while they work for free. 

The other side of that, the argument that it undercuts the profession, still holds as valid. The Owner getting some free design services may not know that they are seeing a fee based on giving some work away for free. That means that the competitor firm trying to bill in a way that is more straightforward appears to be overcharging or have enormous fees. Maybe then the competitor is willing to take on an unpaid intern in order to bring their fees down. Then the first firm is forced to do the same in order to compete. You see the beginning of the race to bottom here? Not to mention the other clients that are potentially getting an inflated fee, or lower quality, because the firm needs to make a bigger profit on other work in order to pay for the free work.

Many of the same comments above about working as an unpaid worker could be said for a firm undercutting their competition by offering to do work for less than what their work is actually worth.

  • Working for free screws everybody. Don't participate in the race to the bottom.
  • You sound desperate. 
  • Way to devalue yourself and the profession as a whole.
  • I'm sorry, did I miss the part about the reach around?
May 9, 16 5:07 pm  · 
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monosierra

Idolatry at its finest, coupled with schools that fail to prepare graduates for work, makes for a toxic combination.

May 9, 16 8:06 pm  · 
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DeTwan

Academic architecture (colleges of architecture) is a racket....just like war...
 

May 9, 16 9:24 pm  · 
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Yippee!

Shouldn't take a whole month! They  should be able to tell if they like you in a few hours. I got my first job as a student by walking into a place and asking for a job. They said no. Out of pure naivety I then asked what they were working on. Then kept asking questions, again out of pure ignorance. Then I offered to take over. The guy stood up, invited me to sit down and said, "ok, show me what you can do." I worked for 2 hours and walked out with a job. And a check for 2 hours of work, which wasn't much.

May 10, 16 8:31 am  · 
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geezertect

^  Great story, thanks for sharing it.

May 10, 16 10:09 am  · 
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Non Sequitur

Good story from Bruce Willis up there.

I remember my first interview after grad school. I networked to get some face time with a small office owner who I respected their design. During the interview we actually worked on a small design project. We worked out options, did a few hand sketches and talked long term project commitments.

I was offered the job following the meeting but I turned it down since it's was wicked low pay. I think the principal was insulted but who cares, anyone who works for free is a fool. This person did not value my input enough to give me a market value salary so I moved on. I bumped into him years later and although I know he recognized we, I could see he was more angry at my colleague awkwardly hitting on his daughter.

May 10, 16 11:14 am  · 
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zonker

during the recession, a lot of us who did not have enough experience and or  ability and who did not graduate from big name schools had no choice except to submit to working for free for a while at least until our "big  break" came - the reality is that it never happens that way - you must make your own breaks - also we are not in a recession now - but - in 2 -3 years tops - we will be in one - still never work for free

May 10, 16 12:08 pm  · 
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Jamb'd

It's crazy.  We work really hard to get an interview, then a job offer, and then get insulted by a ridiculously low wage.

I had an interview a few years back.  I had a job at the time, so I didn't really need the job.  However, I did want to get out of a construction office and into an architecture office.  Going into the interview I knew I was more than qualified.  Working within a Design-Build office, I had seen my drawings get built, I had received the criticism from the contractors over the years, and had even project managed a couple of jobs during construction.  During the first interview, I brought my academic portfolio as well as construction documents and some concept presentation drawings from the office.  We discussed everything, and then near the end of the conversation, they implied that I wasn't qualified enough for the position.  Part of their argument was the difference in work, residential to commercial.  Although, I did present a couple of smaller commercial projects. The other side was the difference between what I call defensive design and in-house design.  If you're building the project, you don't have to worry about detailing everything.  If some unknown contractor is building your drawing, you need to cover your ass.

Anyway, I was pissed by their comments, but more so from the fact that I didn't feel that they had understood our conversation and I wasn't talking to an HR person, but rather the two principles of the firm.  I felt that they didn't get it.  I politely, but aggressively argued my stance with them.  I remembered turning some of their own language against them.  They said they wanted an entrepreneurial employee and I kind of laughed and said they couldn't get any closer with me.  In my current position, I was the whole architecture department. 

Long story, short.  They called me back for a second interview to offer me the position.  They admitted prior to the initial interview they didn't feel that I met their requirements.  However, they liked my cover letter and decided to interview me anyway.  They went on say, that when I fought/argued with them during the interview, they were impressed.  They wanted someone on their team that would fight for their firm like that.  They wanted me to be their lead architectural designer (their design was terrible).

Then came the offer.  They started by saying that they didn't care what my current salary was, and they offered me some ridiculously low wage.  I think it was the same or a little less than what I started at 10 years before with hardly any experience.  I remember wanting to laugh out loud (I held it in.)  I had brought with me a salary survey (from Archinect, I think).  I showed them the survey and I told them my current salary and said I wasn't interested in a lateral move.  They hemmed and hawed.  We ended the interview.  They called me the next day and offered to match my current salary, but still insisted that I pay half of my health insurance (my current position paid 100%).  I said, no thank you.

The whole thing was a total joke.  I love this profession, but I hate the way it is run.

May 10, 16 12:18 pm  · 
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DeTwan

That is a common instance in the architecture field. I think that the 'slave culture' runs so deep in architecture that many principles and business owners in the field purposefully poach young and dumb interns or graduates for almost slave like wages which creates this Stockholm effect within these poor indentured souls, aka BIM/CAD monkeys.

Those ppl are easy to spot in the architecture field, usually they go around spouting, "Im not doing for the money, but the passion", have 0-6years of professional experience. Once you've worked in the architecture field for 10+ years and you're still a CAD monkey for the most part, and make little more than you did when you got your first job, you start to become jaded, and all the hot air and bs you keep hearing from your employer, the more you realize you're....a slave.

And it goes back around to why it is hard to find qualified employees in the 10-15years of experience range, most ppl pull their heads outta their ass once they realize that you can literally do anything with "passion" and make more than you did in architecture.

It has become a disgrace of a "professional' field....just avoid it at all cost!

May 10, 16 1:29 pm  · 
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tduds

I'm doing it for passion and money. Turns out you don't need to pick one if you're insistent.

May 10, 16 1:55 pm  · 
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no_form

best interview i had was with an old timer who had a lot of street cred. from working with staritects and an academic career.  old timer loved my work but wanted to pay me less than what i was already making.  i called the old timer out on it and the logic was "do this for passion or for money."  sorry, i value what i do and there is a price attached to it that i won't go below.  

instead of keeping up with the joneses we just race to the bottom.  or race to the "notjones" bottom i should say.

May 10, 16 2:06 pm  · 
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zonker

That is a common instance in the architecture field. I think that the 'slave culture' runs so deep in architecture that many principles and business owners in the field purposefully poach young and dumb interns or graduates for almost slave like wages which creates this Stockholm effect within these poor indentured souls, aka BIM/CAD monkeys.

Sadly, 98% of us will never move past this - because we are just too lazy and or chickenshit

May 10, 16 2:54 pm  · 
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Jamb'd

Ironically, the system is flawed for the principles and business owners too.  Look at the starchitects working for free via competitions.  What more does OMA or Piano have to prove?  Yet, they voluntarily and repeatedly work for free in an effort to win a project.  Apparently, the race to the bottom begins at the top.

May 10, 16 3:10 pm  · 
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no_form

oma and piano probably have budgets set aside for such things.  

May 10, 16 5:18 pm  · 
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geezertect

Jamb'd:   Those guys sound like a couple of used car salesmen.  Did they happen to be wearing checkered sports coats and two-tone wingtip shoes?

May 10, 16 5:45 pm  · 
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thisisnotmyname

Jamb'd:  The guys sound like about 50% of the principals I've interviewed for jobs with over the years.  You handled them quite well and I feel sorry for whoever they did ultimately hire. 

In my experience, the salaries for an architect working for a well-run construction or design build company will clobber those at just about any architecture firm.

May 10, 16 6:36 pm  · 
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Jamb'd

geezertect:  Ha!  Yes, they did reveal themselves as sleazy salesmen in the end.  The one principle was a good salesperson.  Smooth and real friendly - and then, the negotiations started and he revealed himself.  He was a jerk and I could just imagine the uphill battle I would have trying to get a raise in the future. 

thisinotmyname: Good point about the poor kid that did get hired.  Maybe that should be a future Archinect feature, How to Handle the Used Car Salesman Masquerading as a Firm Principle (or the other half of the profession).

Yes, the Design-Build route seems to be the way to go.  The projects get realized which means there is a lot more opportunity for profit.

May 11, 16 11:56 am  · 
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whistler

I have an office policy when hiring where by we agree to hire someone for a set wage... but the first three months are a trial period and the new employee works for about 80% of th wage with 20% held back.  If the new employee sucks or doesn't "fit" then its by mutual agreement they would leave and are paid out at the 80% rate.  If they work out and keep them on then after three months we hire them full time and top up their salary with the 20% we held back and they get full benefits etc.  It provides a healthy trial period and opportunity to learn the ropes in the office with both sides aware of the testing out period with no abuse.

I actually got hired at my first real long term job the same way by pitching my employer at the time that I was worth a higher rate than what they normally would expect to pay.  If I worked out then they would up my salary and back date the trial period.  I got the wage I felt I was worth and they got to test out my skills in real time.

May 11, 16 2:18 pm  · 
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no_form
Whistler your deal sucks. If I understand it correctly. If you hired me at $50 an hour you'd only pay me 80% of that for three months?
May 11, 16 2:26 pm  · 
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no_form
Whistler, "no abuse" the more I think about your deal it's totally abuse. You hire someone you pay them 100% of what you agreed on. What purpose does paying someone 80% serve? None other than you're cheap and don't want to pay someone the full amount because it may not work out. And your deal is not the same as the one that was offered to you.

Just another example of how sleazy people in this profession are.
May 11, 16 3:03 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

Whistler, that's a terrible model.

May 11, 16 3:17 pm  · 
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