I turned down a chance to work for Jean Nouvel for free (French interns are always unpaid, from what I gather, as they have to do it for school), and I regret it... generally I would say you shouldn't do it, but it really depends on your situation and the context. In retrospect, I had almost no experience working in architecture and was not done with school yet, so although I felt it was wrong to work for free - I'm not so sure now, and I think it would have beena great experience.

so if somebody else is sure they enjoyed it, you might become sure you enjoyed it enough to do it again?

i am disgusted with employers who don't pay their interns, and equally disgusted with my fellow brilliant young people who are willing to work for free (or obviously much less than they're worth). whether you need the money or not is irrelevant; if architects do not believe in the value of their work, who can we expect to believe in it? our actions have significance beyond personal means and ends, and the significance of this widespread practice is its contribution to the degradation of the architect's role in society.

no, i was just wondering what different takes on it and outcomes were. i would rather not, and think it is disgraceful firms do this. i was told a story in school recently of a firm you had to pay to "work" for, but couldn't verify it.

I think working for no pay whether as an intern for an architect or an architect for a developer is unethical and BS.

I pay my interns. And I don't work on spec for developers. Architects need to practice better and then they'll be paid better.

I just turned down a job for a 25 story building because someone wanted me to work on spec. It' neither an architect's nor an intern's role to bankroll people. We are professionals and we need to be paid for our time. The developer said that if the project went throgh then I'd be paid for my time. B.F.D.! What about 30% like a lawyer?

A lawyer would never tolerate being told so neither will I and nor shoul dan intern.

There maybe very specific cases where you're doing pro bono work or something simiiar but if someone is making money off your time or you are increasing the value of someone's investment, then you should be paid.

That's my two cents. Hope I was clear enough ;-)

I agree that it shouldn't happen, but it does. And in a competitive industry such as ours lots of firms will do this. Having said that, I think you have to analyze your specific situation. Aside from monetary rewards an internship should help broaden your skills and make use of your talents. If you can get by (Not be well off, just get by) with little pay to work for a firm that you would love to work for, would teach you alot and would greatly boost up your resume. I say do it. At least until something better appears.

I took little pay while working at Studio Gang. I was still in school when I started with them. I had zero experience. I loved every second of it. I got to be in charge of a project on my own. I learned an immense amount about lot's of things, not just architecture. I got hired full time for the summer after some part-time work, and continued part-time work with them until I graduated last May. I got by on what I was paid, I got great experience working on cool projects, plus being able to say I worked at Studio Gang opened up alot of options as far as finding employment after graduation. Overall, it was a great choice. For me. When considering such an investment of your time and energy make sure you come out better after it then when you went in to it. Also, don't just measure how better or worse off you are monetarily but creatively, and intellectually also.

yeah, i don't work on spec either. it's bogus, and it is bogus to for any of us to work for free no matter what your level. that said, i have a soft spot for non-profits or people in need and will do what i can to help them out if i believe in their cause, but i would not employ someone and then expect them to work for free.

what is working "on spec"?

that's is when a cliient asks you to generate ideas for free. if they like one of your ideas, they will then engage in a contract with you. this also allows someone to get ideas by going to many different designers.

"On spec" for lawyers means you'll take a case for free based on the idea that if the plaintiff wins, the lawyer retains 30% of the settlement. That can be millions of dollars. Developers many times offer to pay the architect's fees if a project goes through. There's a big difference and I think it's a joke. When you have a client and money is a problem in the beginning, 99 times out of 100 the project will go down the shitter in terms of quality and getting paid. Good projects happen because of good relationships. Rarely are they sneaked by a disagreeable or disinterested client. When the above-mentioned firm has an intern in charge of a project for which the firm is being paid, then it raises all kind of ethical questions. The principal of that firm was paid to come up with the program for a competition for an environmental center. They then entered the competition and won it. Many architects wondered how is it that the person who authors a program for a competition could enter it? So, practicing architecture in an ethical, upstanding way is not their priority.

This was supposed to be about internships not sour grapes over a design competition. It was up to the people putting together the competition as to who was allowed to enter or not. In the end the winner was chosen based on the quality of the work and the design entered.

It's a question about ethics.

We are supposed to be licensed professionals who uphold a certain standard as required by law.

Whether or not they won the competition is NOT the point--it raises ethical questions.

Until architects have the balls and foresight to tackle these ethical issues, they will remain underpaid and underappreciated.

That's why it realtes the internship question.

I know what we are SUPPOSE to be. However, reality is different. And your right, it's a lack of cojones as to why things continue going the way they are going. I hope things will change soon, but as to the here and now of needing to do what you need to do to better your situation whether your a firm, a principal, or an intern you will do whatever it takes until you get to a certain level where you can generate interest in your work through competitions and recognitions, afford to pay your employees what they're worth, and receive the benefits you deserve as an employee.

We have a choice. We can make a difference.

Once you tread down a path in life rarely is there any return.

School and internships are the foundations of ethical practice and professional conduct.

This is real stuff. You never do "whatever it takes," you do what is ethical and legal. That's why we're licensed and that's why people pay us. If clients did "whatever they wanted," it would tough for any of us to stay in business. These things are all linked.

the original poster said "disregarding ethics." i don't think you're going to find many young architects who are behind the no-pay-internship idea.

that said, i too am interested in hearing people's experiences with this. mostly pertaining to how such an internship benefitted or hurt them afterwards.

last summer (after 1st year grad school) i worked for a big firm and made pretty good money for someone with no previous experience. furthermore, i was able to talk them into an increase in what they were originally offering me. this firm was highly profitable and could afford to pay me well, but their trade-off was shitty work.

i suspect many of the boutique firms to which students flock for internships are not as profitable and see the quality of their work and the noteriety of their name as an equitable commodity to be bartered. so, as i look for work this summer i too am curious as to if the trade off is worth it at all.

Replies to that end are appreciated.

That's what I was getting at droog. "whatever it takes" was meant more towards, taking internships that may not pay well but that are rewarding in other ways. Getting great experience, working with a firm that has a buzz and will look better on your resume than other firms your considering. If taking less pay to get other things out of an internship that you can't get at another firm where the pay is better, weight your options and to whatever it takes to better your situation, even if it is the unspeakable act of working for little pay. I don't feel like I was taken advantage of and feel it was benefitial for both the firm and I. It was what we needed from each other at that time. I needed a great firm to take me in and teach me, give me experience to jot down on my resume. They needed talented, hard-working interns that were looking for more than money in an internship. Your absolutely right in noting that the noteriety of their name is a commodity.

This is my view: if your going to make money in this industry it won't be the first couple of years out of school. It will be years down the road when you have the experience to justify a high salary. Be it as a principal in your own firm, or someone high up the food chain at a large firm. Right now your experiences are more important than getting rich. For they will shape your view of architectural practice, hinder or nurture your creativity and form the foundation to your career that's just beginning.

Yes, some firms may look better on a resume than others, but in the end they all are working for profit. Habitat for Humanity looks good on a resume but nobody out on the job site is making money off your skills, at a firm they are. I could see working for peanuts if all the firm did was pro bono type work. Personally I've never heard of a firm that couldn't afford to pay a student intern a decent hourly rate. They might be able to justify less because of inexperience but like the original post 55hr/wk for $700 month - that's around $3/hr. Working for less than minimum wage is for one illegal for the employer to do and second, it doesn't help the profession as we all struggle to make ends meet.

maybe i should clarify...

in the office, i was paid highly for an "intern"
normally, interns got about 350 a month, but they also recieve a monthly stipend from the e.u. (for being students) as far as money goes, the office shrank from about 20 people to 12 when i left, with 5 as interns (cheap labor... nice) i do realize that i was getting paid poorly, however the trade-off was working in a good firm and living abroad for an entire year, without assistance from my uni in doing so. i feel it was highly beneficial. now that i am approaching graduation, and dreading the job search, as i probably won't get in any of the firms i would like (a product of school selection?) what would be a better approach. were i to take a pay cut, might i get in a good office? this seems to be one extreme. the other is getting decent money, but working for a not so great design firm. in between is probably where i will end up, but i was specifically wondering if people who took the job with little or no pay, ended up in a better position. i am mostly at a crossroads, and don't know which would be better, career wise...

meliasonvt, this is the thing we all struggle with. what is the right balance of pay, benefits, people you work with, the work that you do, and where that work is located. i once worked for a large corporate firm. the work was so so. the people sucked. the pay and the benefits were decent. i lasted 3 months. i couldn't stand working with sucky people doing so so work. i left without having a new job. i then found a job working for a wonderful woman in san francisco in a three person firm with a lot less pay and little benefits. it was a much better environment for me. she respected and valued my opinion. she tasked me with work that pushed my abilities. you had to do everything because the office was so small. everything was transparent, and i learned so much as a result. i never even thought about the fact that i was making a fraction of what i had before.

meliasonvt,

DO NOT base your career decision, for the first job, on an either/or: no pay, good design, good pay, bad design. think about what you need for your career right now.

for me, i had spent 5 years learning how to design in school. i could try to good design firm, like my friends did, and do grunt cad work etc. for the privilege of putting their name on my resume. or, I could go to a decent firm, even a 'low' or bad design firm, and get to do the work, be involved with the entire process, straight out of school. which is what i did. sometimes 'low design' may mean high responsibility, sharp learning curve, good career move. i may not be saving the world from the tyranny of big & little box developers now, but i feel I will be developing the skills to do that much more quickly. of course it's possible to learn the process, beyond the 15% that is design work, in a "good office." but the chance you will be doing menial tasks IS often greater.

however...if you're the type who wants to brag about which cool office you'r working in 6 months out of school, then that wouldn't be an option for you! =)

i am also at a firm that respects their employees enough to pay them what we deserve, even just out of school, and gives them responsibility accordingly.

Well said Museschild.
Do you get design tasks at design based firms right out of school? Any experiences? What did you do at the cool office - those that have been there?

Maybe I'm too cynical when I see your optimism of trying to work for that "perfect" firm and doing what ever it takes. I think you are missing the point somewhat. Why all the large firm bashing. There are many large firms that work excellently with interns and compensate them accordingly. There are also great small botique firms that compensate interns well. Yes, find a firm that fits well for you, but no, you shouldn't have to take major or drastic pay cuts.

For instance, I can see a firm not being able to cover full medical or dental. That's acceptable. But a wage that is 10% or 20% less than what the big guy down the street pays, that's ridiculous. Is your work at the botique firm worth that much less? Hell no it isn't. Especially if you have more responisibility at the smaller firm.

As someone who has to live off what I make it's a damn tough market when employers are saying things about how they could hire an intern for less than $30k/year + no benifits. Sometimes I think we create our own financial troubles. Where is Squaresetboy when I need him to back me up on this?

i agree that architects create their own financial troubles. they continuously underbid work just to get it. it's sad. when i went to work for frog, i was amazed how much they got paid and thus their employees got paid with the fraction of liability and complexity of projects that architects have. the industrial design and graphic design industries have been better at pricing the value of their work than architects have been.

i was not bashing all large firms. i was bashing one large firm. i have worked at dysfunctional boutiques too. do i wish i didn't have to take a pay cut to go work for this smaller firm? of course. do i regret it? at that time in my life, no. conditions in life rarely present us with the "perfect" job.

It isn't just architecture. Almost all the 'cool' internships are without pay making a) only wealthier classes continue to dominate the more lucreative positions b) you resort to selling yourself on the street to pay your bills. I

It is typical in Asia and Europe to not get paid if you are an intern. I think interns need a union. It would definitely stop D.C. dead in its tracks. All of the interns there (I am no longer talking about architecture) are unpaid.

I suggest those willing to take unpaid internships think of it as a personal slight. Is the firm you are considering so low on funds that they are unable to give you a fair wage? Probably not. So then, who gets your paycheck? Must be that fat cat at the top! I suppose the fat cats aren't already getting enough compensation that they must suck up yours. Demand fair pay for fair work my friends – we don't do this for our health. Those willing to "sit at the feet of a master" for table scraps have no self respect. Do you think they respect their unpaid interns? Hardly.

Just wanted to reiterate, since melia asked us to diregard ethics, that not taking an unpaid internship out of principle was one of the few things I regret having done in my life. It was context specific in that I interviewed with about 25 firms in Paris, it was the summer, I was still in school - maybe 10 firms offered me work, all unpaid. I ended up working for a friend who could pay me (though not much), and I was staying with a friend so I didn't need much money.
Personally I think it depends on what you will be doing and what you will get out of it. If an intern (and by intern I mean someone still in school, not someone who has graduated but is not licensed) is working on something like a competition which will not generate much direct income for the firm, and if they are credited on the project, I don't see why it can't be a win win for both the intern and the firm.
As the owner of a small firm now (with no interns!), I can tell you that companies which focus on design may not be making much money on design heavy projects, or they may be working on a non-profit project or a competition with a very small prize. In this case, I think it would be fair to pay a small amount (nothing at all seems sad:-(), as long as it is very clear what the intern will be working on, that they will be given credit in any publications and references, etc.
I also worked for Neil Denari as my first architecture related job ever for nominal monthly pay. I was doing research and working on theoretical projects. It was a great experience, looks good on my resume and I know he was making no money at the time in his office. So basically he was paying me to teach me about how he works... every situation is different, and the best thing you can do is get as much information as possible about the potential job, the company, how they treat interns and what you need, in order to be able to make an informed decision that is best for you.

You won't respect yourself in the morning!!! Haha!

I worked for "room and board" straight out of school with $5 bucks an hour pay for construction work in 95'. Blew it all in Europe then found work as an intern for five years in design build environments. I look back on my pay with regret at times, but would probably have worked for Nouvel (or Prouve) for free!!!

fish > amen.

Yes, Amen - You bring up a good point - why should I pay my interns if there are plenty of others to be had for free in their stead? You pay to go to school right, and your learning more working for me than you were when you were in school, right - You should be paying me! (baby, I got your money. . .)

NEVER WORK FOR FREE!!!!!!!!!

you fucking idiots are killing our profession!

who cares if it's Jean Nouvel or Joe-Blow contractor? it shouldn't matter...especially when you'll get better business sense/ideas from the contractor!

On a more practical level (and not to necessarily ignore the larger ethical issues). When you work for free there is absolutely no incentive to not waste your time. I’ve worked for less than my usual rate when I thought I could learn something or I liked the people and really believed the they couldn’t afford to pay more but if you are working for free you’re basically just being allowed to hang around and do stuff that the office can’t bill for. If you are going to things like this I think it is better to commit to doing a project rather than just signing on as an intern. That way you can say “I know you aren’t getting paid to do that competition” or “I know that there isn’t money in the exhibition budget to build an new model of that project but I’ll help you out.” Then people appreciate the favor and you aren’t just picking up red-lines and organizing the library because, whatever, you’re free.

You can always not get paid to do your own work

I spent 3-months interning for very little money at a firm I contacted because they were dedicated to an area I intended on researching for my thesis. the circumstances were right at that time that I could take advantage of this brief opportunity, and it was worth it both personally and professionally. I don't know if I would feel differently if I had been paid, as I was not sacrificing myself for the job, and I feel that in the end it was a mutually beneficial experience.

FUCK THAT..., I WORK FOR MONEY
SO CALL ME A WHORE!
BUT YOUR JUST AN EASY SLUT IF YOU WORK FOR FREE.
MY GOD MAN..., HAVE SOME SELF RESPECT.

PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS SHIT...
YOU WORK FOR ME FOR FREE AND THINK OF YOUR RESUME'

TELL ANYONE WHO WANTS YOU TO WORK FOR FREE TO BENDOVER.
SEE HOW THEY LIKE IT.

naive students will always lose a company money in the short term. this can't be ignored as effectively the company is paying out to give the experience.

here's my opinion - I've worked as an intern paid and unpaid
Both were gratifying - however menial the work was.

My first jobs, I was ruling up papers for drawing (manual office), making blue prints...and with the success of those i was moved into tracing standard details, to mylar to working drawings. However it was technical I wanted the other side of architecture.

I offered myself to what was the best local practice told them what i wanted to do...that i wanted to be part of the design process, to learn. I told them i had limited experience, none in respect to designing. They said i was liability...but I offered them an opportunity by having extra man skills without the additional expense, only that i wanted to be present. I was fucking amazing. Working for free was definately a bargaining point. - I stayed there for 5 weeks...well worth it.

My take on this as an intern, you gain more from the practice than the other way around typically. If you have something really amazing to offer...then yeah be compensated. But taking the blank (or just a stipend) means you dont carry an exhaustive expense for the practice and that in turn is taken (usually at least in my environment) with respect for learning. However internship should be assumed to be permanent or even semi permanent...if you have to determine the time in months it is too long. Take it 3 weeks at a time...twice that at 6 is just right. It also means you can have a loaded summer, of working with about 4 practices with enough time to shake your ass off clubbing or making use of that surf board you just had to buy!!!

my two cents

Interns don't cost a firm money - otherwise no one wouldn't have them. In most cases they at least pay for themselves as they do tasks that are non-billable (marketing) or low-margin (competitions, which are just an extension of marketing). I remind you folks that at administrative assistant who makes $10 an hour is not asked to work for free since they "cost the firm money" through non-billable hours, even though they perform tasks that require no particular expertise.

If you all learned a lot working for free for an architect, think how much you are going to learn working for free for a developer. Or your uncle.

If the principals are getting paid, the interns damn well better. Um... labor laws? You are obligated to pay your employees unless they are students receiving academic credit for the "experience". I have no problem with pro-bono work for non-profits.

well you don't get professional credit either - so it really a middle ground and it differs from locale.

Truth be told if I saw in someone/ a student something that i needed or could utilise I would pay them for it. If it were a purely educational aspect, with nothing to gain - I'd buy lunch!

If the work you give has to be micro-managed by an associate/partner etc it takes away from billable hours - and costs the practice money. If the service you are offering doesn't need over-the - shoulder monitoring its different

I think Janosh has a good point about the pro-bono work, and in fact I'd encourage anyone who looking for an internship and thinking of takign a low paying one to get better design experienece to look at firms that do have a pro-bono or non-profit side to them, or other non-profits, schools etc. that might benefit from some free design work. It still pays to do thorough research though, as I know of at least one olarger firm who takes on these pro-bono projects purely for marketing (though they say they care...), and in that sense it gets a little twisted...

wes jones pays his germans interns 2.85 per hour

i heard

I AM SICK OF RICH KIDS WITH NO TALENT MAKING THEIR WAY UP THE LADDER IN MY PROFESSION SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CAN AFFORD TO WORK WITHOUT PAY.

YOU ARE SCABS.

FUCK YOU.

at least wes is paying his interns now.

BOTS writes:

"naive students will always lose a company money in the short term. this can't be ignored as effectively the company is paying out to give the experience."

That is BULLSHIT.

DO NOT HIRE NAIVE STUDENTS. There are PLENTY of capable ones out there.

Yeah, hiring the "sweet little things" with a full rack and no clue (or the "my daddy is the client" types) will always be a loss... SO DON'T HIRE THEM.

I went to school with plenty of people that would be a HUGE asset to any firm because they have their shit together.

I also went to school with plenty of people who couldn't find their ass in the dark... and that was the "best" school (I use the quotes for a reason, trust me).

Hire the good people and pay them well. Let the others find another profession.

Lots a firms hire crap people because they know they can pay them crap and give them crap work. That's fine. It's natural selection.

The problem comes when GOOD firms hire RICH kids because they know they can pay them NOTHING.

What happens next?

The rich kid is a partner in 5 years and his buddy who KICKED HIS ASS AT DESIGN is stuck at the only mediocre firm in town that could afford to pay him enough to cover his student loans and a mortgage.

do not ever work for free. if you have money and work for free it won't last the generations past you it supported previously. do not do it.

assholes work for free
but then they are the ones who have rich parents or cousins
and they are the ones who will be featured on the monthry issued of Architectural Digest or some other fuck-all magazine out there