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Help with Section Detail
So I have this detail (I hope it shows up) that I need to do for my school project. As you can see, its steel decking with a W beam. In the background (in red) is the column that supports the beam. There's a curtain wall on both floor that goes floor to ceiling, and it repeats for all 5 floors. The poorly drawn thing to the left of all this is some type of panel system I haven't thought of yet.
The problem is this: How do you insulate it? You can't just have it like I drew it (which isn't right to begin with, but anyway) because its a huge thermal bridge. I talked to my materials class professor, and he says he's not sure how to do it.
Conceptually, I want the floor to be thin and extend outwards to give an open feeling, meaning the columns have to be farther back and not on the edge. Any thoughts as to how I can do this? If someone knows of a building with this same detail or something along similar lines I can do my own research, but I just don't know where to start.
This is my first project that actually requires me to think beyond sketchup-material walls and floors, just so you know my level.
Not worky.
i'm aware
Where's the damn detail??
George here is looking forward to gold leafing it.
I also wanted to flute the W beam, too.
picture doesn't show up
your probably goingn to have to host the image on flickr or some sort of photo sharing thing to display it... the drop box method doesnt seem to work
did anyone mention yet that the detail doesn't show up?
haha i thought you guys were making fun of the detail at first... didn't realize it didn't show up because i can see it. anyway, i think i'm solving it but here it is again:
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5600930551_764297e4c7.jpg" width="381" height="365" alt="detail">
sorry, i'm a student with barely any applied knowledge.
why do you have some sort of panel and fenestration??? plus your beam is going to be below your floor
Due, that's a very crude detail. Some issues:
-you need to look up edge-of-slab typical details for steel construction. There are a few standard ways to terminate a slab.
-it almost looks like you are creating a cantilevered balcony detail. Look up balcony details for standard way of doing that. Keep in mind that balconies are typically huge thermal bridges, and as such, your building will have poor performance.
-it's not a curtainwall what you have there. CWs tend to be continuous floor-to floor. What you have is more of a series of storefront assemblies.
-it's never a good idea to expose the structure to external elements. Is there any waterproofing/insulation? I sure hope so. Where?
-In professional setting, I would veto such detail for being too messy/not worth the trouble.
Otherwise congrats on your first stab at detailing! You can only go up from this point :)
change the direction of the decking so it spans the cantilever properly.
a bent steel plate deck edge is your friend, it helps terminate the steel decking and stiffen the edge while encapsulating the concrete slab PLUS you can weld to it! what's not to love....
but in general, this isn't too wise of a detail considering water and heat flow. there are some tricky products to create a thermal break in the structural slab but i'd suggest avoiding them for the purpose of your project.
Great points el geffy, although the decking orientation will be moot if this typical detail wraps around the entire building.
rusty - sorry i overposted your comments.
but if someone put a gun to my head to make that detail work, i'd rotate the decking when it wrapped the building just to exploit the structural capacity.
You can only go up from this point :)
<sadface_failure.gif>
okay, it's a crude detail you've drawn, but not impossible. first you need to look at the transition between exterior cladding and interior ceiling assembly. i think it may help to think of this in terms of construction systems, i.e. suspended ceiling, exterior wall panels, etc. the detail then becomes how do you join the two systems based on thermal performance, water-tightness, etc. second, the key to the detail is figuring out what you are attaching the "curtain wall" to. (rusty is right; it is not technically a curtain wall.) I could see attaching it to a line of metal studs. if so, then the detail is about the intersection of exterior cladding, metal studs, curtain wall and interior ceiling system. figure out that detail and you're money.
Not just for the pro's - saved my ass alot in college.
just googling your cantilevered slab thermal bridge problem, i found this:
http://www.buildinggreen.com/live/index.cfm/2010/7/15/Schck-Isokorb-for-Controlling-Thermal-Bridging
not sure it's really worth the fussiness or not. [i've seen plenty of cantilevered slabs work just fine without a thermal break.] but sort of interesting nonetheless. ah, those germans.
won, that system appears to be for a reinforced concrete floor.
It brings up an interesting point. Perhaps the OP should do a concrete structure instead. Steel frame detailing is a lot harder than wood or concrete. At least for someone detailing for the very first time.
When it comes to building envelope relationship to the structure, concrete feels intuitive, easy to grasp. Once you get the concepts, only then will you be able to feel comfortable with wonky steel shapes.
it's true, but i don't know why the same principles of the detail couldn't be applied to a composite deck.
Rebars (tension) are continuous in that system. The thermal break is strong enough to work with concrete (compression).
Beams in steel frame would still have to be continuous from interior to cantilevered balcony part. There are other ways to minimize thermal bridging in steel frame but not in the way ze Germans designed this one.
I think it might be possible to use Isokorb in a composite deck but the demands for Isokorb require a pretty deep slab to begin with. With 7+" slabs, you're not really getting the advantages you get from composite floor decking.
I believe there is an Isokorb for steel-to-steel connections but I'm not sure what the tensile strength/sheer capability is for it.
I think another issue here is how to connect the isokorb, sheer connector extend the concrete out past the perimeter column and main the exterior curtail wall envelope. I have some ideas but it would require some variety of exterior paneling system to cover up some weirdness to give it that clean modernist look.
I also think that floating floors and ceilings would be necessary here.
what are floating floor and ceilings? like a hung ceiling?
to everyone: i'm here reading everything and its helping a lot. i'll post a new image at some point soon.
Okay, here's what I have:
I'm using the thing I just posted above. I was thinking to just have a "fake" cantilever with a bent metal plate, but because at some points in this project the same detail turns into an actual balcony, I thought I might as well just keep it the same.
Please critique the hell out of it, thanks.
One major thing that's missing is a beam going the other way. As-is wouldn't structurally stand up.
Your window assembly needs to stand on the edge of the slab. Not directly on top of insulation.
The rigid insulation (lower floor) appears to be the actual cladding of the building AND finish of interior space. You need to rethink that one. Badly.
What you refer as bent metal plate (it's cut off on the page) should be called out as a custom metal fabrication enclosure. Otherwise it's believable.
You're gettin' there son!
Due89, as mentioned by rusty!
- beam section is missing (was present in your first attempt)
- move window frame inwards (could be placed on a steel angle and allow an tolerance zone under the frame maybe 25 mm or so, frame need support and cannot be placed on insulation)
- Floor finish is missing (think if you want your window frame to be flush with the finished floor or not, could look weird in interior elevation as you would see the mullion but not the transom) (probably you need to raise the cantileverd bit so it is flush with inside)
- false ceiling is missing
- insulation needs panel and finish on the inside and cladding on the outside, you can use the present column as support for your panels etc.
- think about waterproofing
have a look at www.schueco.com you will find loads of deatils there.
- also flashings need support / fixing.
Thermal break as drawn should work!
http://www.schueco.com/web/us/commercial/fassaden/products/facades/mullion_transom_facades/fw_50~2B#cad
CAD drawing are available after login at bottom of the page.
hmmm some of the thread must have disappeared when everything switched over...
anyway, i got a lot of it resolved, and my professor seems satisfied. i have a new question though: there are level changes in my building (like 2 ft.) every once and a while. i assume i can build up on top of the structural floor. is there a name for this kind of thing so i can look it up? i assume it would be small w beams and then joists, right?
thanks everyone. i'll post the final drawing + a picture of the 1/2 scale model next week when its all done.
due, cheapest option for your raised slab would be "raised access flooring". You can run services underneath, and it's easy for maintenance.
Building out an actual double slab is rarely ever practical. It's often done underneath rooftop pools for waterproofing redundancy, but you don't want that.
Looking forward to drawings and pictures of the finished thing!
. . . every once in a while . . .
I would do something like this:
But don't take my word for it as I haven't drawn anything in a long, long time.
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