If you think for a second that a degree from Ball State will open the same doors as one from Yale, you are absolutely delusional. You and i both know that is not true.

You're argument is about money. That is a fine argument to make as it is expensive. However, you are assuming that money is the only factor when it clearly is not. Some people value intellectual stimulation over a paycheck, and while he may not live in a penthouse in Manhattan, the guy won't be living in a garbage can either, and he may find trading a couple Beamers and a big house for an intellectually satisfying career path to be worthwhile. You apparently feel differently, and that is your prerogative

And gtfo with that petty BS at the end of your post, it sounds an awful lot like sour grapes.

"If you think for a second that a degree from Ball State will open the same doors as one from Yale, you are absolutely delusional. You and i both know that is not true."

Yes, your $100k+ Yale degree will open the door slightly wider for the same crappy $40k corporate internship.

Actually, the Ball State grad with no debt can probably afford to work at those glamorous unpaid internships at SANAA.

ptoteus, if money isn't everything, then clearly yale would be charging less for its magical farts degree.

"Money isn't everything" is usually a talking point of an entity trying to take away as much money from you as they can. Nice try though.

proteus - aside from the philistines, I don't think you actually understand what it's like for someone of the lower socioeconomic persuasion to be carrying around this kind of debt without any kind of safety net.

We'd be trading in the ability to provide basic necessities and a future for our families for "intellectual stimulation." not a couple cars and a f-ing mcmansion.

[i]"We'd be trading in the ability to provide basic necessities and a future for our families for "intellectual stimulation." not a couple cars and a f-ing mcmansion."[/]

This. Well said.

Sorry... were you all talking?

I couldn't hear you over the hoofbeats of my polo pony on my crushed coral driveway.

I'm willing to bet that 15 years down the road, a grad from Ball State will have more buying power than this kid if he chooses to drop another 100k to go back to Yale.

Money isn't everything??? This entire thread was started because the kid can't figure out if it is worth the 3 year, 80-100k investment.

Again, it's a fkn MArch. Given that he ALREADY went there, anything he could learn from a Yale MArch could be learned during your free time in books and a little travel...that's why I say, take that money and travel the world and work. You will learn a lot more and have made money and real connections as oppose to worrying about debt and a nearly useless degree.

burningman - you aren't helping things - IMO an MArch is actually very worthwhile if you know how to utilize your time and take advantage of the resources within the program - it's just that if you have a family to take care of and/or are already starting out economically disadvantaged these kinds of programs are inaccessible.

Toasteroven,

I am someone of lower socioeconomic persuasion. My dad is a pipefitter, and my parents contributed essentially nothing to my tuition. I am in a very similar boat as the OP.

I totally agree with you about trading academia for a family, that seems a likely scenario. But that is a legitimate choice one could make, is it not? The whole issue of money is a valid one, but the arguments here seem to preclude the possibility that the OP may be more interested in a career than a family. I am saying the choice is not as simple as most here make it out to be.

rusty!,

You deal in incredibly objective truths. Reality is quite different. If money were everything, why on earth did you choose architecture, of all things? Surely there was something there that intrigued you more than business school. You sacrificed the money you could make with an MBA for designing buildings. You have already made a decision that money is not everything. Some choose to go further.

proteus,

I remember paying $6K for the last year of my thesis. 10 years forward, and salaries have remained relatively stagnant (even during the boom) while cost of living and education has skyrocketed. I chose architecture way back because it seemed like a potentially satisfying career that was within my financial reach.

Problems with our profession can be seen in other fields as well, but we are suffering for it more so than anyone else right now.

Your pa was a pipefitter? My pa used to break rocks with his forehead and bring us home sand so we could eat. Of course we liked it.

An MArch is pretty damn close to useless. Think about it. If you already have a BArch, you go back to school to get an MArch, then you are using it hopefully to pursue an academic career. I'm not saying it's completely useless, but pretty close to it. Three years in Yale. What couldn't you do in the real world working and having free time to pursue other things that you couldn't do with a 3 year MArch degree? Learn how to use the CNC? Say you studied under some famous book writer?

I have studied alongside many MArchs, watch them come and go at two schools and can tell you that there is nothing you couldn't do with a BArch that you could with an MArch, so to me, it's pretty close to useless...

I don't understand what you mean about an MArch and taking care of a family. Please clarify. I don't have one but I did come from a pretty poor background, but I can't seem to understand how an MArch from Yale along with the 100K here is going to improve any family situations.

@ Proteus,

Thanks for offering a completely legitimate opinion.

Just because Proteus' comments are not blindly pessimistic, and wants the OP to seriously consider turning down a great opportunity before he does for financial reasons, doesn't make him a used car salesman... seriously guys, grow up.

Swick,

proteus stumbled in here name calling everyone that could possibly disagree with him.

maybe he's not a used car salesman. He also may be a republican congressman.

@ rusty!,

True, I disagree with the Philistine comment. Mine was actually made too hastily.

good luck freeezerburn, big decision. IMO, do it (of course, I'm in a similar situation, and have yet to know the joys of paying back student loans, so take my advice with a grain of salt). But if you don't, it's not like you'll never have this opportunity again - meaning i don't think this would qualify as a "once in a lifetime opportunity" (for you). I'm sure you're a qualified applicant and could reapply 3-5 yrs from now with no problem.

If you don't get in, it won't be because you turned them down once before. The institution is too large to hold a grudge for something so unimportant, out of a sea of so many qualified applicants, and especially for so long. And if you don't want to take the chance, talk to someone in the office of admissions. It's not that they'll put a little * by your name with a qualifier like "refused very politely, consider in great detail in 3-5 yrs when he/she reapplies", but it will at least help you to sleep at night when they tell you there's no hard feelings.

My initial reaction to this thread was that (in the distant future) if my son/daughter came to me with this question I would tell them to run away from this Yale "opportunity" as soon as they could - 100K in debt as a young person in this profession is LIFE-CHANGING DEBT !!! No matter how anyone sugarcoats it, unless you hit the Powerball your next 20+ years will be spent servicing a debt - no house purchase, no new cars, constant concerns over money, potentially bitter spouses handicapped by your choice, etc etc.

My suggestion would echo some others already posted - travel, get practical experience, volunteer for Habitat, live your life for a few years and save some money - if the lure of academia is too strong the same Yale MArch opportunies will be there in a few years - or you may have new priorities that involve practicing or going to a state school while you work part time or some other thing that you cannot even contemplate currently. Life has a wonderful way of taking obstacles and exchanging then for incredible experiences that you never saw coming - good luck.

Thanks for all the really really interesting responses. I don't have the words yet to process all the opinions furnished, but I just want to say thanks and I hope that by asking the question, everyone else here benefits as well. Of course, know that by asking this question on a board, I don't mean for anyone to think that opinions posted will really and truly make or break my decision, but having all this food for thought is wholeheartedly appreciated.

Speaking of which, the 80-100k loan was slightly exaggerated. I have recalculated and changed my FAFSA and took a second and third look at possible expenses while taking in all my available options, and figured probably maximum total loan to be in the range of 60k for three years of MArch (I have a BA only, if that wasn't clear, so I have to do a 3-year program - my undergraduate program is non-accredited). I don't know if that re-colors anyone's opinion, but it seems to be to possibly be slightly more manageable?

freez, yea that does make a difference. Good on you for looking deeper into your finances. Not great, but much better than $100K. Plus you get a Yale degree that's apparently better than freemason membership.

I say do it!

Or not.

World ends in 2012 anyways.

Haha, @rusty! that's part of my reasoning for not having kids - we're all gonna burn anyway! In NYC, for example, I was in a t-shirt and shorts on Saturday, but left the office tonight with an inch of slush on the ground. Global warming's a bitch.

60K is still a ton of debt for an architecture salary. If you want to go that bad, I would recommend working a couple more years to save up as much as you could. 60k still comes out to around $650 a month. Apply to other ivy league caliber schools - it's the same crappy paying MArch.

Didn't you apply to other schools? Talk to the program directors about increasing your scholarship. A few back and forth emails with my program director cut my tuition in half which was quite a bit more than what they initially offered...if not, work some more and save up; you'll be worth more then and will likely get better scholarship offers a year or two down the road.

Get your license in the meanwhile or take as much of the exams as you can. and do if before 2012!!! lol.

I really don't care if you go into deep debt or not. Thinking it'll be forgiven is pure nuts though. If that's the story now, believe me, it'll change. Like someone said, it's simply not sustainable. You went to Yale, think about it.

There are already tons of people out there with that debt and the sense of entitlement to go with it. I've read about them. Cry me a fucking river, people. Apparently, sound judgement is not all the rage these days.

Oakley that was me who said it's unsustainable. The flip side is young people have had "goto college" pounded into their heads from parents, teachers, guidance counselors. No one ever talked about comparing the debt to the salary. This is part of the reason why the cost of education is rarely even questioned. Whatever the OP decides at least he is trying to make an informed decision.

Yes, it is part of the problem. The education system is just horrible. 2 Yale degrees with tons of debt seems crazy (if I didn't make that clear!).



Already asked, but I'll post again....why do you want another degree from the same place? Isn't that kinda pointless? I mean, you'll get more practice with stuff (as with any school, or just taking time off and doing your own thing for that matter).


A degree from another U will look TONS better, show you are well rounded, adaptable, interested in learning more, etc. Two degrees from the same Ivy (to me) says "I have a family friend in admissions...".


Throw in an MBA with the MArch and now we are talking good deal.

trace, the op already explained that they only have a BA.

for some reason a lot of posters on here did not bother reading others posts.

I'm sorry but if I went to Yale it would definitively not be for Architecture,I'd be getting an MBA or a Law degree. Otherwise you will be known as the guy who went to a Law school for an Arch degree.

+1 on the MBA/MARCH combo....$100k in MBA debt is a very different thing than $100k in MARCH debt. Starting salaries at Yale and top-tier MBA programs are all above $75k. Try to get that with just an MARCH.

Sorry, at work, but just want to address this MBA/MArch point. and let everyone know that all this discussion is still pretty enlightening Yale's SOM is not really well known as a top business school. Much of its focus is actually placed in non-profit and heterodox applications of an MBA education - it's not really the same as Harvard Business School or anything. Yale offers a joint-degree program, but it is 4 years instead of 3. I can start it in my second year, so I don't need to decide now that I want to do it. Thanks for the ideas, though!

I am kind of surprised about how much everyone is dismissing Yale architecture, though. It's consistently listed as a top grad program with great faculty. The educational bent of the school is also very much aligned with my own interests in theory, a sense of eclecticism, and practice (you build a house in your first year from the ground up!). The BA and MArch programs are also very different, and I only did "architecture" for a couple years at school - I was mostly involved in the literature, history of art. and philosophy departments anyway! I don't really think someone who knew about the programs would look down on me for going back.

I doubt anyone questions the quality of the school, but don't put too much weight in the "top" programs (try a search and you'll get a more accurate/biased opinions on how the "rankings" are determined).


rusty - the MBA suggestion is just practical, can't mention that enough.

marlowe - that's pretty low. When I was getting out of UCLA their MBA's started at close to $100k, and that was 10 years ago. I think UCLA was top 20 or something, good, but not amazing.

Yale is the number 1 Law school, and number 3 business program, their website lists starting salary for lawyers at 160,000 dolares, that could pay off some loans fast.

freez:"Yale offers a joint-degree program, but it is 4 years instead of 3. I can start it in my second year, so I don't need to decide now that I want to do it."

Oh that's actually great! You should do that. You will be in huge demand by getting an MBA on top of March. Warning: (And this is a warning to anyone else praising MBA's) You will never ever work on designing anything ever again. You'll be too expensive for any of that. Any MBA knows that designing part of architectural services is an unfortunate expense.

That's been the case with every architect I know who went back to get an MBA.

what if he runs his own office? that MBA will help out. But what about Law School? thats a better route for a Yale student.

Wouldn't just a few accounting classes take care of the economical implications of running an office, let alone moving up through the ranks at a small firm? I highly doubt many people come of of school and immediately start an office. Correct me if I am wrong, though.

creativity, you're just trying to eliminate as many people from entering architecture as you possibly can. Aren't you? :)

If he ran his own office that would be great. But if his office is doing mostly kitchen renos, then the MBA is wasted. It takes years before you can attract clients with formidable projects. MBA straight out of school will land you a decent paying job. They will not want you to be doodling layout sketches late into the night.

frfeez: you're correct. Biggest contribution of an MBA to an architectural office is short and long term financial planning. We know nothing of such. Yes, we can do Quicken accounting, but that's about it. You come in and put down all these impressive benchmarks down that can be objectively followed. Next thing you know; profit! And you get a chunk of it.

Is that facetious? I detect some facetiousness! My understanding was the MBA/MArch programs are really tooled for RE/Development people?

correct.

BUT, we also need you on the architectural side. All small and most mid size offices can not afford you though. Truth is, once you graduate with an MBA/March you will be looking at offers of $60-70K from developers and same shitty $40K from architects. Who turns down so much more money?

Understand the business world is an asset in anything you do. Architecture, real estate, etc., are all part of that world, like it or not.

Sure, most people are fine knowing nothing and using that nothing knowledge for nothing (see how that works?).


Understanding how/what/why etc. can be empowering. If you don't want to use it, then don't, but at least you'll understand the financials surrounding a large deal.

I say this as someone that has a business and is working on various projects. That MBA is something I'd kill for, but I don't have the time to go back at this point. I'd love to, but it is just not realistic.

That is the only regret that I have in my education. I have a minor, I have taken tons of classes, read dozens of books, but it still like building a puzzle.


Again, my 2cents and my observation about the (business)(architecture) worlds. So few really understand any of the business side of things, in any profession, and that, imho, is a terrible waste.

Ohhhh, I see what you are saying. Well, that is really just a) if I do this joint thing 2) if I do it with any kind of ability iii) I find a way to put it to good use.

That said, it's still another year of school, unfortunately.

Thanks for that input, @trace. It's another year of school, but hopefully that means coming out of it I'd have the aptitude to make architecture POSSIBLY a more fulfilling and profitable venture. But if I went, I'd at least have a year to stew on it.

oh no way im not trying to keep anyone out of architecture, merely showing him options, as i see it i think quite a few people here want him to be a business guy, so if he is willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars why not spend it on a law degree heck you can practice law until your past being old and gray, but with the money they make no lawyer has to do that, they just run for office or something after a while. Well either way, good luck.

spelling correction, "you can practice law until you're old and gray...." just got done doing some exercise quite tired.

I think anyone and everyone should be a "business guy", really. Unless you just want to sit at the bottom of the pole, you'll need to understand some aspects of business. This doesn't mean you have to be the guy building spread sheets all day, but you'll be able to communicate with those that do.

It is just a tool. Something that gives you power, or has the possibility of giving you flexibility with your choices later on.


Dunno, to each their own, some like working for other people forever, some can't stand it.

of course we need to know about business dealings, contracts, and all the legal aspects of running any project, but you dont have to get an MBA to achieve this goal, in Architecture, It would help but its not needed.

Ps. anyone who has read any of my past posts knows I am not fond of working for other people.

Freezer if I were you I would accept the offer but plan ahead. One thing that many people don't do is look into scholarships. You can actually offset the cost by even half with outside scholarships. You should also look into what it takes to become a TA. At GSAPP they waive 10,000 for tuition.

@Orgufiel, that would be so ideal - unfortunately for me I obviously assumed that Yale would provide a lot of aid like they did for my undergraduate education, but they didn't. Does anyone know a place to find graduate school scholarships? I was pretty lucky in undergrad and did a lot of homework to find a lot and I wound up without any student loans, but I am having a hard time finding grad school ones.

I don't think Yale takes kindly to 1st year TAs, but of course I'd try to find work later on if I decided to go. Does anyone have any experience going to an Ivy League or generally high-class architecture school and trying to have a part-time job?

From the comments it sounds like going for an March/MBA is redundant. You will end up using the MBA and doing less architectural work. Agreed?

@jbushkey - if you can get into a (top) MBA program, go! they are nearly impossible to gain admission at for a reason. you'd incur debt, but not unreasonable debt for the salary you could expect. yale's is not a top MBA but it is close. the safest are the so-called t-7 MBA programs which vary a little based on all the rankings they have for the MBA. anyway, i have a lot of friends who did their MBAs and many have even been able to do architecture-related work as VC/PE guys....so perhaps the traditional architect role will just shrink to CD/production with all the big design decisions being made by the guy with the money AND education (the new MBA/MArch hybrid?).

@freezerburn, a LONG time ago when i went to grad school, i looked for scholarships to no avail as well. there are some for women in design though at several schools. do you happen to be female?

good luck

liz diller - b.arch*

*mind you, she married one of her professors who was noted for smoking cigarettes in his porsche, so why would she waste time in grad school?

@genuwine

Do you know roughly how much TAs can expect to make at Yale?

What school you go to doesnt matter in the real world. It's just a nice bragging point. Save the money and go somewhere cheaper.