You just won the all expenses paid Caribbean vacation!* There are only 50 seats available so you must act now, otherwise the free* vacation will be awarded to our next caller.

*cost of air travel, hotel, meals, beverages is extra.

Of COURSE they'll take your money at a later date. dum dum.

Congratz on your acceptance, save up your money and try for yale's law school or business school instead thats my advice

Yeah... I think he means if it's a black mark against him should he save up and re-apply in a couple years.

But I'm sure you knew that.

Hey Freezerburn, I also got into Yale this year and got my fin aid package over the weekend. It's a decent gesture, about the max I expected to get, but it definitely comes no where near close to the total costs education.

Did you see this article from last year.
http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/jan/20/financial-aid-scarce-for-architecture-students/

It seems like the school knows the position that people are in regarding loans and debt, so I doubt they'd hold it against you for declining based on that. Given the competitiveness, though, there's just no guarantee you'll get in the second time around.

First of all, do you really want to attend the SAME school for grad and undergrad? Sure, Yale is a good school, but I usually find that most schools don't differ a lot between their various degree programs. Architecture schools can vary quite a bit in focus. Don't you think you might be better off going to a school a little different from undergrad? At the very least, experiencing a new city, expanding your networking, etc?

Second, avoiding $80 - $100k in debt USUALLY means you will need to aim for state schools that are not as expensive outright as the Ivy's. Considering how much schools budgets have been slashed, getting a financial aid package at all is generous. One that pays for more than 70-80% of tuition... unlikely.

You obviously know that a degree from Yale dont mean shit in the real world (you are living paycheck to paycheck)

Therefore, why would you give them another $100k to be in the exact same position that you are in now?

First off, that's for all the sarcastic comments. I think those are really helpful and I am sure you feel a lot better about yourselves.

@therebyfar - thanks for the link. That came out after I graduated and I hadn't seen it. I didn't know so many people would turn down the school for financial reasons. I saw a lot of schools gave the option of applying again if you had applied in the last few years, but I take that to mean if you we not accepted. I just don't know how it would work if you'd already turned them down before.

God knows I didn't get a call from Bob Stern, though.

@cherith I don't really see the benefit of going to a school with a separate pedagogical bent for the sake of experiencing something new. I'd done research, been there before, know what I want to do, and it just so happens to dovetail nicely with where I went to undergrad. And the programs are very different. I only did architecture for 2 years in college - most of my time was spent in the literature program. The schools are very, very different.

I'm sorry I don't understand the second paragraph, but are you saying that the tuition of a state school is less than an Ivy? That would make sense, but do they offer aid if you are from out of state, or is it just that state school just would have lower tuition, period? I guess it's too late for that now anyway unfortunately. I was just naively hoping for more help from Yale.

@mdler what would you suggest instead? I don't really see how my career can develop at all when I only have a BA. Also, if a degree from Yale don't mean shit, then why would a degree from anywhere else mean shit? Should I just not bother getting any degree right now? I am being totally sincere; is it really worth it right now in this economic climate to be going back at this age?

Going to school to get a piece of paper that says you can do something is just that-- proof that you can do something. But it doesn't necessarily mean you can do something well or even adequately. Passing in school can be done at an average (C) or below average (C-, D+, D) level.

If you're looking to expand a certain set of skills, you should just go ahead and study those skills. You live in New York Fucking City. Every god damned class, book or tutor you can think of is offered there.

It's not you're me and you inhabit a pig-disgusting swamp in America's Penis. Barnes and Noble doesn't even carry an AutoCAD book here. And you'd be damned lucky to even find a month old copy of Architectural Digest.

How about asking your employer to work with you on perhaps addressing some of your weaknesses and inadequacies?

You've already worked 3-5 years in New York. You'll be eligible to sit for the exam in what? 4-6 more years? If you go to architecture school, you'll be there for another 2-3 years, intern for another 2-5 years.

I loathe the fact that architects can't even seem to admit weakness.

You can't fix a problem unless you admit you have a problem!

I've had these conversations already, and I have pretty much been the only person in my office to request yearly reviews. My employer has basically told me to go back to school for my own professional development. I've already done IDP. The problem is, it's unfeasible financial right now for me to go back to school. The problem is, I fear I rushed to apply when my financial situation wasn't adequate. The question is, should I decline acceptance in the hope that later on I will be in a better state financially and that they will take me back?

I don't understand so much hostility to this issue. I know that I am lucky to get in at all. I don't see why there's so much anger about real-life issues.

America's Penis sounds like it sucks, though, I'm sorry. NYC isn't really a fucking picnic either, and every class, book, and tutor isn't free you know. It's not like I am getting out at 6pm and am able to do anything like this either.

I think what you need to determine is what amount in the bank would make you feel comfortable going to grad. school. I think it might be unrealistic to expect to be able to pay tuition in full out-of-pocket (I don't know many young professionals who can just write $60k+ checks) but there should be a happy medium between reasonable student loan debt and paid expenses. Sure, student loans suck, but there are (to a degree) a necessary evil, and with the income-based repayment options, not a huge financial burden post-graduation.

Okay, so you have a number in mind now. Let's say it's $10,000. When do you want to be able to go to school. Now? Well procuring $10k now might be difficult. 3 years? Easier to work with. At this point, it's a matter of doing of the math and seeing how much you would need to be able to save per month.

This is where the problem is going to occur. You've mentioned you haven't been able to save much, which I am guessing is largely due to living in one of the highest cost of living cities in the world. NY is great, but it's expensive. So either you start looking for better paying jobs in NY, reduce your monthly budget somehow, or move somewhere with a lower cost of living so that you can save more.

I know that all seems super obvious, but aside from that, I don't know what answer you were hoping to get. In 3-5 years, it's entirely possible that the admissions people at Yale will all be totally different anyway. I doubt you will be black listed. You do however take the risk that in 3-5 years you just may not get accepted again. You probably should have a few other schools in mind. There are other programs (maybe not many) that are similar to Yale.

freezerburn, just go for it. I was in a similiar situation and decided to go to Yale knowing full well i would be paying for it for years. I don't regret one single sallie mae payment. You can do the graduated income payment schedule. Mine started out at around $150/month and is currently at its highest now at around $300/month. I think those numbers are totally possible for someone living in NYC.

As for the admissions committee, it changes every year with a few people staying on. There are about 7 faculty member and 3 students on the committee. If you do decided to reapply in a few years they most certainly won't hold it against you and probably won't think twice about it. Your application will go through the same grueling process it did the first time around.

Good luck!

anyone think tuition is not going to go up? go to the school yo can afford. graduate, make $

Hi freezerburn,

I also am a recent Yale grad (class of 2009) and majored in architecture. On the subject of whether turning down an offer of admission will be held against you, I'm not sure, but I can only offer my own experience as an example.

Two years ago as a senior I applied to architecture schools right out of college and also for some other jobs. I was heavily recruited by Teach for America and was placed in Philly to teach high school math. I also at the time got into Columbia. Faced with this tough decision, when I talked to the GSAPP and explained that I was wary about going straight into grad school and that I wanted to get more real world experience in a sector that I also cared deeply about (education), I was told that barring any unforeseen circumstances, if I were accepted once before I would be likely to be accepted once again.

Two long years later, after having taught 11th grade in West Philadelphia, I reapplied to schools this year and was immediately disappointed when the first notification I got was from GSAPP - a rejection. I guess the unforeseen circumstance was probably the fact that there was a horrible economic crash and applications were quintupled or whatever, but it's still frustrating for me to be told that two years ago I was "good enough" but this time around I wasn't, despite the fact that I feel like I have more life experience, a better perspective on what I want out of life, and a much more meaningfully written personal essay (my portfolio largely stayed the same).

Like genuwine said above, your application will probably go through the same rigorous scrutiny the first time around. Even though you can state on the application whether you've applied before and what the result of that application was, it's still no guarantee. Thankfully I got into Penn this year and will be attending in the fall, which means I won't have to move out of Philly. The fates have a way of making things work out in the end.

(Oh and I got rejected from Yale. Damn you Bob Stern! Your own faculty wrote my recs! What more could you want??)

80-100K in debt...for Architecture school??? Glad I took the work equivalency route....Got paid to learn by doing. In 15 years in Architecture, I have not experienced someone getting hired because of where they went to college. I'm sure there are places that do, though.

try to find a principal in any firm who doesn't have an m.arch degree.

don't worry about the cost of school. you'll definitely be able to pay it off later. why wait 3-5 years? think of how much more responsibility you'll have then compared to now.

Don't be so daft. There are plenty of principal that come from all kinds of backgrounds. Now if your scope of architecture is a handful of starchitects, then your point is more valid.

High profile projects tend to go to well connected architects. Such architects tend to be more affluent and tend to go to more expensive graduate programs.

And yes, being the poorest schmuck at Yale will pretty much guarantee you stay the poorest schmuck from Yale for years to come.

freezerburn - i try to stay away from these threads, because i have mostly said my peace. but i have been through your situation, and think i can offer some advice.

despite what some people (who probably don't have those degrees would say) an Ivy degree opens doors. PERIOD. you make connections that last a lifetime, with people who are GENERALLY the cream of the crop (there are exceptions everywhere of course, this is not meant to be an insult to others AT ALL). i have been helped many times by friends or alumni/alumnae in high places from other Ivies. statistics don't lie though, and people with Ivy degrees tend to make more money.

the problem is, that is an AGGREGATE statistic. in general, if you go to an Ivy, you can leverage that to a high degree. and most graduates of Ivies are from the colleges. but it is the same at b school, med, etc - an Ivy degree puts you into a smaller, more elite category of people and earners. in architecture school though, (unlike the colleges, med schools, business schools, law schools, or some of the others i am sure i am missing), there is a VERY blurry line. sure, you'd have access to some of the best architects in the world, best facilities, etc. BUT, your degree does not really say you can perform something that someone else cannot. with the possibility of doing what TaliesinAGG did still being viable, that piece of paper is more or less worthless in terms of professional liability and licensure. but it goes further than that. architecture is also subjective. because it is, a professional network can only get you so far. when the economy tanks, architects are VERY vulnerable to it, moreso than any other professionals in my opinion. when it happens, that means the piece of paper is just a debt burden during a time with fewer jobs. the degree CERTAINLY helps when you are trying to impress a client, or when you work for yourself, but those situations are less common right now because there is so little work. so your hesitancy is smart.

there are plenty of people who have taken more time after getting accepted, only to go back to the same school (but i suggest that you address it in an essay of course). so i would not worry about the lost opportunity. i would worry more about the career as a whole, and see if that debt is worth the risk of such an uneven professional course. with a lock-step career like b school, that debt is worth it, because you can almost COUNT on making much more money having gone to an Ivy. but since architecture school is such a question mark, consider saving money, or even consider strengthening your application. or even consider a school like MIT or Princeton. they are both very generous with financial aid, and although not the same academic intention you'd planned on, they are CLOSE. and VERY respected as well. so you would not lose any degree leverage, only debt.

good luck.

if i'm not mistaken, liz diller did not go to graduate school.

I have no doubt that your Ivy thing opens doors. Even Yale grads do toilet cores...For me, though it seemed like a much better fit for me to fast forward into the real world, Architecturally. Those 5 or so years did indeed give me a head start compared to those who went directly into college.

I did take some time off of work from time to time to get education outside the office, summers at Taliesin, eco-design workshops, etc...
But it was more informal and inspirational.

But, I was fortunate to get in a few very well respected busy firms that did fine work, and have great mentors that had my future in their interest. I chose firms that did the kind of work, and had the clientele that I was interested in. One was a well known former apprentice of FLW, another was a former Gropius associate. I can say with confidence, mine was a great learning experience, that too opened doors professionally. The work I have done is what i have to show off, not where I didnt go to school. Of course it's an individual thing, I would have been miserable with the traditional educational approach.

80-100K for an MArch?

Take that money and travel the world and work for the same amount of time. You will learn a lot more and still have money left over. The school hasn't budged because they are more interested in your money, not you. shocking.

"80-100K in debt...for Architecture school???"


That pretty much sums it up. Anyone that pays that for an architecture degree (not two degrees) is surely insane.


Easy to pay off? You'll be paying more than that $300 someone listed above. I'd put it at about $500 for the rest of your life. That's a few BMW's, just in case you were wondering what it would get you in the real world.

As mdler noted, it is a degree, a piece of paper. This isn't law, this isn't business, this is architecture. If your starting salary was going to be $150k, go for it, but it ain't gonna be but a fraction of that.



Yes, insane.

I tend to agree with burningham.

Go to Germany and get the equivalent education for 500 euros a semster. Or to Norway and do it for free...etc.

The American post secondary situation is ripping you off. **** em!
80k-100k for a degree is for the independently wealthy... Not for regular working human beings.

....5,4,3,2... Before the Ivy Leauge fanboys jump all over my comments.

to be fair, a year at Yale is around $35K. Two years for march. meh. what else were you to do with such money? buy a house in Arkansas? get a shiny car?

escalating tuition costs are just a reminder how shitty everything has gotten.

the revolution will be streamed directly to your ipads.

It's more like 56K a year when you factor in living costs.

It's a sad day when someone wonders if 112K and two years (or in some cases 3 years and 168k) is worth an MArch.

I came out of grad school with 22k in loans not too long ago and am paying $225 a month at 6.8% interest, so 80-100k will be more in the range of $900-1100 a month for 20 years. For an architecture degree, no way in hell!!!

i don't understand why everyone is so skeptical of education--as if its only value is the degree you receive. you're going to be around such an inspiring group of students and critics that will push you far beyond what you thought you could normally achieve. it's an opportunity that many people will never get.

harpoon, thank you for actually offering some sound advice. Education is a lot more than a dollar sign, a point many on this forum seem to forget. There are so many things you get out of the school that you don't get from working in an office - intangible things that while they may not help directly - do help out long term. I don't want to belittle actual work experience, but the academic experience, to me, is an extremely important part of the process. Just being in an environment with 400+ students and being able to draw from that resource is not something any work environment can replicate, especially given the constraints that any actual project will have.

As for the cost, I'll just remind everyone that with the new income-based repayment consolidation option, you can consolidate ALL federal loans into 1 income-based payment. So yes, you can have a $300 dollar loan payment on $100k in loans. In 25 years, the remaining balance is forgiven (you just pay taxes on whatever it is). It's totally manageable.

Wow, I really didn't know this would develop into a thread with such passionate opinions. Thanks everyone who had something helpful to say. The sheer lack of time I have to make a decision like this drove me to seek advice in nearly every arena I knew.

@Harpoon and @Cherith, I am starting to come around to your side of the argument. I am thinking, for me, it really is now or never. I can't seem myself going back to school later on in life, anyway. I would hope that my life, personally, would be a little further along and would preclude packing up and doing this. I also don't see myself wanting to bump around from one type of extreme "learning situation" to another, never being able to grow, financially, professionally, or institutionally at a given office or field - that just seems counter productive and why not just go to school and find that experience concentrated in a few years. I am coming around to the fact that i will need to be smart, I guess, for the next few years of my life about how to spend money, but in the end, the experience of (finally) being in a real architecture program will probably be worth it.

I don't think everyone read my posts, but I am not going directly from grad school - I have been managing projects for the last few years and am done with IDP, hence, I do have quite a bit of actual, varied experience and built work. I don't see how blowing money on "traveling the world" or getting a degree in a foreign country would be any help at all - I don't really know about foreign reciprocity, and I know that a lot of those schools are extremely technical, anyway - not much like Yale's program. Also, I don't know Norwegian! I don't know, either, if people know this, but when you apply, they don't ask you whether or not you can pay when you send in your application. They ask that after you get in, and they should make it manageable for you (unfortunately they don't). Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the alternatives.

@justaddwater - that sounds terrible! I am really sorry. As you can see, I am trying to avoid that situation. I hope things work out for you at Penn, though! From one Eli to another.

Freezer burn has already gone to Yale.

The question is another trip there worth 80-100K.

You cannot pay off a 100K loan with 300 a month at what is currently 6.8%. No one lends you a dollar so they can get 85cents back in 20 years....

I just checked my math, it's more in the range of $800 a month over 20 years. Is that "totally manageable?"

Freezerb, how does that sound? Is 800 over 20 years worth a couple years of crits to do the same thing again for the next couple years for another architecture degree from Yale?

For the last F'ing time:

Income Based Repayment

Income-Based Repayment (IBR) is a new payment option for federal student loans. It can help borrowers keep their loan payments affordable with payment caps based on their income and family size. For most eligible borrowers, IBR loan payments will be less than 10 percent of their income - and even smaller for borrowers with low earnings. IBR will also forgive remaining debt, if any, after 25 years of qualifying payments.

So yeah, you might not pay off the loan in 25 years, but your also not paying $1000 a month. Also, since it's income based, you get smaller payments when you graduate (and get paid peanuts) and larger payments as you make more.

Cherith, way to oversimplify.

Income based repayment (IBR) is great but has limits. Namely:

Eligible loans include:
-Subsidized and unsubsidized Stafford loans
-SLS loans
-Grad PLUS loans
-Consolidation loans without underlying Parent PLUS loans (Perkins loans may be included).

Ineligible loans include:
-Parent PLUS loans
-Consolidation loans with underlying Parent PLUS loans
-Perkins loans, unless they are included in a Consolidation loan
-Private, state, and other non-federal student loans
-Loans in default

Loans federal government will vouch for have limits: For undergraduate students, these amounts are $23,000 in subsidized and $34,500 in unsubsidized loans.

Total of $57,500.

Your $100K loan can still add up to a grand a month.

The kicker? You miss a few payments, and all of a sudden you're in default. No IBR protection for you!

IBR is well meaning, but there is a school of vultures waiting to swoop in and make your life miserable regardless. This is why we can't have nice things.

FreezerBurn, do you still have loans from undergrad? If so, how much are you paying?

IBR is kind of nice idea (in theory), but you rely on having a low income to keep it effective. If you can't ever see yourself making a respectable amount further down your career, then the IBR would have some effect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to be paying back only $300, you would first need to be making under $3000 a month and your student loans would have to be under $34,500. So if an MArch from Yale will pay less than 36K a year, then the IBR would work in this scenario. Personally, I don't like the idea of having to pay back 10% of my income to student loans no matter what I was making.

Addendum to my past post:

As a grad student you are eligible for up to $8,500 for subsidized and $12,500 unsubsidized. Total of $21,000. Per year.

So a 2 year march at Yale that will cost $100k will have $42,000 eligible for IBR.

Also IBR income limit is 15% not 10.

IBR will help you, but still won't resolve you from understanding what you be signing up for. yo!

In my case, my private loan payment has the lowest interest rate and is less than $100 a month. I think, as a single, you have to make more than $100,000 to be kicked out of the program. I doubt I will ever see that salary in my life, let alone in the next 25 years.

It might not work for everyone, but it really dropped my loan payments. Also, it was really nice to have all my federal loans under one umbrella. Prior to IBR consolidation, my Grad Plus loans were with 1 lender, and my Federal loans, although both with Sallie Mae, were diced into 2 accounts (not by choice). Honestly, I think Sallie Mae did this so that every few months they could send some balance from one account to the other and add the interest into the balance.

"You miss a few payments, and all of a sudden you're in default. No IBR protection for you!"

I would feel bad about this, but if you know you are going to have a problem, it's pretty easy to defer the payment. Most of the loan companies would rather help you defer for a month or two than default and have to send your loan to a collection agency. Irresponsibility on the side of the borrower doesn't receive much sympathy from me. You know how much your bills are. Figure it out.

weren't you just unemployed for what seemed like forever? personal responsibility spiel is for birds.

freezerburn

go and work for awhile...gain some great professional experience. Make some $$$. Someday, maybe, you can go back and get a masters. In the real world, a masters doesnt mean much anymore.

Yeah, I was unemployed. And pretty much the first day of unemployment I called up all of my loans, told them I was unemployed and got them all deferred until I was able to make payments again. Meanwhile, I started the paperwork for the IBR consolidation. I knew I had a problem, I figured out how to fix it.

"In the real world, a masters doesn't mean much anymore."

The sad part about that statement is that it's largely true. A High School Diploma is about the extent that education is valued in this country, and even in some places that is questionable.

the whole 'higher education' myth is just that...a myth perpetuated by the colleges making shit tons of $$$ off of the saps who think that they need the services these schools offer

Do you really think that the schools make tonns of $$$ ? I think there are one or two people in the back of such an institution who will get all the money earned by often poor students!!!

Schools make a ton of $$$. In the 1980s, you could have gone to Yale and paid all of your tuition and living expenses just working summers. Let's face it, they're an institution and need to stay employed just like you and me, and at the end of the day, the $$$ is more important to them then who they let in or what they let out. 30 years from now, it will cost 250k a year to go to Yale and by that time, architecture salaries will still remain relatively stagnant.

The sad thing about this economy is that the schools are doing better than ever before because there is no accountability. If there was any reflectance of accountability, the schools should be shrinking with what the profession and market dictates.

Students apply to more schools these days than before hoping to get a better aid package not knowing that by doing so, they actually make it much more competitive to get into these schools and compete for that aid. The schools are fine because they don't have to deal with reality. If they can all put an addition to their programs, they would, and it doesn't matter if realistically only 1/4 graduates could find jobs. That Yale degree isn't going to make a company swap their current employee for someone with a fancier degree.

obviously, freezerburn is a smart kid and will probably be successful regardless of the path he takes. i feel like most people here are like contractors trying to save every last penny because they don't see potential--just the bottom line. by going to grad school, he's investing in himself and in the belief that it will take him to the next level.

Why? Correct me if I am wrong but the school gets paid from the loans. It doesn't matter to the school where the money comes from it's all green. The loan underwriter assumes the risk of default.

Why? Correct me if I am wrong but the school gets paid from the loans. It doesn't matter to the school where the money comes from it's all green. The loan underwriter assumes the risk of default.

Cherith the IBR is nice in theory, but I would not count on it as a financial plan. Eventually too many people will be enrolled and not paying back their total school loan. They will end the program and most likely kick out the people already on it. It is just more of the financial hocus pocus that our economy is currently run on.

Do you really think a system based on people not paying their full debt is sustainable???

Schools will just charge even more because borrowers will be totally oblivious to how large their school loan gets. It won't matter if you owe $50,000 or $500,000 when the monthly payment is the same.

Schools are more expensive because they are hiring Architects to design them fancy cutting edge buildings that fail......then they have to fix their failures..or move the architecture programs into failed buildings. No mystery there. Oh ya and parking structures so students have a place to park their BMW's or Audi's.

Freezerburn,

When someone poses a question like this on archinect, they are immediately inundated with the type of comments you'd expect from a gaggle of philistines who have either no desire or no ability to investigate the field of architecture in the way that it seems you would like to. That is not to say that a good and thought-provoking education cannot be found at a state school, because it most certainly can be. Your education is what you make it. There are people who graduate from state schools every year who are much more talented and able than their Ivy counterparts. Hell, Tadao Ando didn't even go to school!

That said, there is a reason Yale is so highly regarded.

Is the debt serious? Absolutely. However, as far as i know, you only live once. You have to decide what you intend to do with your life. Do you want to teach? Where do you want to work? Yale will put you ahead of the field, period. If you have a real desire to see just how far you can go, Yale is going to put you in a much better position to realize that, regardless of what these people (who likely didn't get in) will say to you.

You will have to weigh the benefits v. cost yourself, i assure you the answer will not be found on these boards.

wtf. were you a used car salesman before working for Yale? "Come ooon! Just buy one already".

And what does put you ahead even mean? YOu'll be 20% less unemployed than the rest? You'll be paid just as shitty as everyone else, BUT in 100 $ bills?

" a gaggle of philistines who have either no desire or no ability to investigate the field of architecture in the way that it seems you would like to"

That's the response from criticism that the school is too expensive? You go guy! Poor scum ARE all philistines. It would almost hurt if not for the fact that Yale hasn't been relevant in over a century.

"Yale is going to put you in a much better position to realize that, regardless of what these people (who likely didn't get in) will say to you."

Hahaha, Proteus is quite the car salesman. We are talking about a kid who already went to Yale who is asking if another two years is worth another 80-100K. Allan Krueger has done quite a bit of research stating that the difference between one student and the next is dependent much more on his abilities than on a state vs ivy league degress.

We are talking about an MArch, the equivalent of a humanities or education degree. That extra 100k has the potential to put him in debtor's prison for the rest of his life. If he can't find a job after graduation, which is the case for many MArch grads from ivy league schools these days, then that debt will be there forever. By age 65, if you can't pay off your loan, the government has the authority to yank it right out of your social security. So technically, this decision could haunt him for the REST of his life. It's not something you can just wake up from and say, oh that was a mistake, let me go back to school again for something else...It sounds like an immature decision, which is why he is here asking for thoughts.

I would think twice about getting even an MBA from Yale at that cost. Frankly, if he already has a Yale degree, why bother getting another one?